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art
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:19 am

LabQuest wrote:
art wrote:
What is the difference between an absentee vote and a postal vote please?


An absentee vote is requested through verifying information beforehand. A postal vote is mailed out to addresses on file whether or not the voter actually resides there.


Thanks for that explanation. I do not really understand the problem with mail in votes. If they need to be requested. they would be sent to the address given by the person making the request, would they not? I am trying to see where the fraud angle comes in.

In the UK electoral fraud by voters is rare according to official data. I think that in elections for a new government in which all constituences are required to hold an election, around 30 million votes are cast yet only a few hundred votes are fraudulent in nature.

Police data on the allegations of electoral fraud every year since 2010 were collected and analysed by the Electoral Commission in 2017.
They showed that even though tens of millions of people vote, the number of allegations is generally in the low hundreds.
The number of actual convictions is even lower.
Take the last general election in 2017, when police forces recorded 336 cases of alleged electoral fraud.
Only eight people were cautioned, and there was just one conviction - for someone voting as another person at a polling station
That means there were no convictions for postal voting.


https://news.sky.com/story/general-elec ... y-11867533

I read that the average rate of convictions for postal vote fraud is less than one every two years. Is the situation in the US so utterly different that it represents a threat to the outcomes of elections?

I can see that in the US there will be problems processing 3, 5 or 10 times the normal post in votes due to COVID-19 changing the way in which people vote but what stops them being sent out earlier than usual in these extraordinary circumstances to ensure all votes are received before the deadline?
 
Kent350787
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:17 am

How is the US system so fundamentally broken that basic voting systems used safely and widely around the world cannot be implemented. That the system is so broken that even a few are able to believe what Trump is saying is truly gobsmacking to literally every other developed democracy on the planet.

Every time I visit the US I really enjoy so much about it, but I cannot comprehend the insecure, old fashioned, wasteful ways of its bureaucracy at nearly every level.
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luckyone
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:49 am

Kent350787 wrote:
How is the US system so fundamentally broken that basic voting systems used safely and widely around the world cannot be implemented. That the system is so broken that even a few are able to believe what Trump is saying is truly gobsmacking to literally every other developed democracy on the planet.

Every time I visit the US I really enjoy so much about it, but I cannot comprehend the insecure, old fashioned, wasteful ways of its bureaucracy at nearly every level.

The answer is simple. We have a large percentage of our electorate that is effectively illiterate by their own choosing. About half of those people vote Democrat, and the other half Republican. And because they are incapable of nuanced thought they have to be thrummed up with sound bytes and angry rhetoric about how bad the other guys are.
 
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stl07
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:09 am

luckyone wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
How is the US system so fundamentally broken that basic voting systems used safely and widely around the world cannot be implemented. That the system is so broken that even a few are able to believe what Trump is saying is truly gobsmacking to literally every other developed democracy on the planet.

Every time I visit the US I really enjoy so much about it, but I cannot comprehend the insecure, old fashioned, wasteful ways of its bureaucracy at nearly every level.

The answer is simple. We have a large percentage of our electorate that is effectively illiterate by their own choosing. About half of those people vote Democrat, and the other half Republican. And because they are incapable of nuanced thought they have to be thrummed up with sound bytes and angry rhetoric about how bad the other guys are.

I think you got the ratios wrong buddy. I left the GOP for a reason
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Newark727
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:33 am

Kent350787 wrote:
How is the US system so fundamentally broken that basic voting systems used safely and widely around the world cannot be implemented. That the system is so broken that even a few are able to believe what Trump is saying is truly gobsmacking to literally every other developed democracy on the planet.

Every time I visit the US I really enjoy so much about it, but I cannot comprehend the insecure, old fashioned, wasteful ways of its bureaucracy at nearly every level.


The problem is essentially one of the politicians being voted for being the same people who get to decide how politicians get voted for. It's a fundamental conflict of interest that's gone on 200 years, but the judicial system continues to consider it outside their purview, so it's almost impossible to change. Right now, conservatives are still convinced that making it easier for people to vote hurts their chances when the votes are counted. I don't think it's that simple anymore, but the perception drives the reality.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:35 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Why can't the Left ever seem to decide whether Trump is moron or a deranged Machiavellian genius usurper? One moment it's "hahaha covfefe what an absolute idiot. Dumb Drumpf strikes again" and the next he's a cunning Frank Underwood-House-of-Cards character. To me it's obvious...he's a blowhard moron and paper tiger. There neither is nor will be some brilliant subversive "coup" plot that sees him staying in office if he loses the election. He's only ever been good at one thing, and that's throwing Twitter grenades into the news cycle.


you mean he didn´t try to blackmail Ukraine into making up campaign ammunition for him?
Even idiots commit crimes ....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
flyguy89
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:47 am

luckyone wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
How is the US system so fundamentally broken that basic voting systems used safely and widely around the world cannot be implemented. That the system is so broken that even a few are able to believe what Trump is saying is truly gobsmacking to literally every other developed democracy on the planet.

Every time I visit the US I really enjoy so much about it, but I cannot comprehend the insecure, old fashioned, wasteful ways of its bureaucracy at nearly every level.

The answer is simple. We have a large percentage of our electorate that is effectively illiterate by their own choosing. About half of those people vote Democrat, and the other half Republican. And because they are incapable of nuanced thought they have to be thrummed up with sound bytes and angry rhetoric about how bad the other guys are.

:checkmark: Add to that the increase in polarization which results in lack of compromise and working together...nothing gets reformed and neither side trusts the other, etc. My only consolation is that we've definitely been through far darker times before, so I'm hopeful that this too shall pass.

stl07 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
How is the US system so fundamentally broken that basic voting systems used safely and widely around the world cannot be implemented. That the system is so broken that even a few are able to believe what Trump is saying is truly gobsmacking to literally every other developed democracy on the planet.

Every time I visit the US I really enjoy so much about it, but I cannot comprehend the insecure, old fashioned, wasteful ways of its bureaucracy at nearly every level.

The answer is simple. We have a large percentage of our electorate that is effectively illiterate by their own choosing. About half of those people vote Democrat, and the other half Republican. And because they are incapable of nuanced thought they have to be thrummed up with sound bytes and angry rhetoric about how bad the other guys are.

I think you got the ratios wrong buddy. I left the GOP for a reason

I think he has them exactly right. While I never did register as a Republican, as someone who voted for McCain and Romney, in my experience the two sides have more or less their equal share of stupidity, just in different flavors.

tommy1808 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Why can't the Left ever seem to decide whether Trump is moron or a deranged Machiavellian genius usurper? One moment it's "hahaha covfefe what an absolute idiot. Dumb Drumpf strikes again" and the next he's a cunning Frank Underwood-House-of-Cards character. To me it's obvious...he's a blowhard moron and paper tiger. There neither is nor will be some brilliant subversive "coup" plot that sees him staying in office if he loses the election. He's only ever been good at one thing, and that's throwing Twitter grenades into the news cycle.


you mean he didn´t try to blackmail Ukraine into making up campaign ammunition for him?
Even idiots commit crimes ....

best regards
Thomas

Doesn't that just prove the point? He couldn't even pull off something that inconspicuous, yet he's going to mastermind some ingenious coup to stay in office? He's an idiot.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:18 am

[quote="flyguy89"]
:checkmark: Add to that the increase in polarization which results in lack of compromise and working together...nothing gets reformed and neither side trusts the other, etc. My only consolation is that we've definitely been through far darker times before, so I'm hopeful that this too shall pass. /quote]

My point wasn't so much about any of the current representatives and the extreme polarisations, more about basic systems. Most other modern democratic countries have sound voting systems with very low fraud levels. I still find it difficult to comprehend that the US believes it's a just society with the frgamented and entirely partisan nature of voting systems and electoral boundaries, so that parties in power are actively able to disenfranchise their opponent's supporters

Leaving aside the compulsory voting attendance in my country, we have independent electoral commissions in our states and federally. Electoral boundaries are matters of public consultation, and the obvious gerrymandering of the US is reasonably rare.
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tommy1808
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Re: Trump Wantso Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:43 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Doesn't that just prove the point? He couldn't even pull off something that inconspicuous, yet he's going to mastermind some ingenious coup to stay in office? He's an idiot.


absolutely.. he won´t succeed with anything he is trying. Unfortunately the GOP doesn´t want to lose the Senate because of him, and they are no idiots when it comes to voter suppression.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
art
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:23 am

A few hours ago I heard Trump making a volte face and saying he did not want to postpone the election. Perhaps 'making a U-turn' would be a more appropriate description since he might not know what a volte face is.

So I guess that he has given up on extending his hold on power by preventing a November election removing him from power. I further guess that he will head down the road of refuting an election result which does not return him to power in the hope of hanging on just a little bit longer.

Is it conceivable that he might whip his so called base into action to defend him from the fraud perpetrated by those fraudulent postal votes his opponent received? You know, the faithful taking to the streets in support of their messiah. It seems to me that just about anything is possible with a man whose overwhelming interest is in furthering his own interest.
 
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:41 am

art wrote:
So I guess that he has given up on extending his hold on power by preventing a November election removing him from power. I further guess that he will head down the road of refuting an election result which does not return him to power in the hope of hanging on just a little bit longer..


i am fairly convinced that he sees a hailstorm of criminal charges descending onto him if he leaves the White House before 2021, and absolutely expect some desperate attempts to influence the election in his favor. I also think he hasn´t subdued nearly enough of the federal government to make that stick. Best case: he doesn´t win, but leaving screaming fraud or, worst case, some über-eager Trump supporters trying to protect him catching bullets.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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scbriml
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:47 am

art wrote:
I am trying to see where the fraud angle comes in.


The only place it comes in is in the minds of the right-wingers. They can provide no evidence to support the claims of massive voter fraud. The traditional thinking is that the harder you make it to vote, the more votes the Democrats lose, so the motivation is clear.

Of course, all of this "election delay" nonsense is just Trump's way of deflecting the spotlight away from the biggest drop in American GDP in history, on his watch.
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flyguy89
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:25 am

Kent350787 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
:checkmark: Add to that the increase in polarization which results in lack of compromise and working together...nothing gets reformed and neither side trusts the other, etc. My only consolation is that we've definitely been through far darker times before, so I'm hopeful that this too shall pass. /quote]

My point wasn't so much about any of the current representatives and the extreme polarisations, more about basic systems. Most other modern democratic countries have sound voting systems with very low fraud levels. I still find it difficult to comprehend that the US believes it's a just society with the frgamented and entirely partisan nature of voting systems and electoral boundaries, so that parties in power are actively able to disenfranchise their opponent's supporters

It all ties back however. Levels of actual voter fraud are low. When it comes to gerrymandering, there's no easy answer. Outlining electoral boundaries in any country is inherently political in one form or the other. In the US, the states are responsible for drawing their electoral boundaries. Seven of the least-populous states have only one representative plus their two senators and thus have no districts and their representatives are elected on a simple state-wide basis. Thirteen states do indeed have independent bipartisan commissions responsible for redistricting. The remainder leave responsibility for redistricting to the state legislatures where obvious partisanship comes into play. Opponents can bring redistricting maps to court for judicial review if they feel they're unfair. Certainly there's quite a lot of accountability to voters who choose their state legislators, and these states also have mechanisms for amending their own constitutions to change the redistricting process. State elections matter, many voters aren't involved enough in state elections, so that plays a role. So I'd say once voters start caring about this issue, reforms could be made.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:45 am

scbriml wrote:

Of course, all of this "election delay" nonsense is just Trump's way of deflecting the spotlight away from the biggest drop in American GDP in history, on his watch.

You do realize that other presidents didn’t have a Covid-19 pandemic, don’t you?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:49 am

flyguy89 wrote:
When it comes to gerrymandering, there's no easy answer. Outlining electoral boundaries in any country is inherently political in one form or the other. In the US, the states are responsible for drawing their electoral boundaries.


It can easily become non-political. In the UK, the respective Boundary Commissions apply a set of rules to draw and redraw constituency boundaries as populations grow, shrink and move. Their work is independent of government or local politicians and parties.
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tommy1808
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:22 am

scbriml wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
When it comes to gerrymandering, there's no easy answer. Outlining electoral boundaries in any country is inherently political in one form or the other. In the US, the states are responsible for drawing their electoral boundaries.


It can easily become non-political. In the UK, the respective Boundary Commissions apply a set of rules to dralaw and redraw constituency boundaries as populations grow, shrink and move. Their work is independent of government or local politicians and parties.


:checkmark:
Here our constitutional court has essentially made it its hobby to rip up anything election related that gets in the way of equal vote value. I am pretty sure any obvious attempt at such nonsene would end with people losing their voting rights for the stunt. And of course garrymandering in particular just wouldn´t work, and not change any majorities in parliament as it gets filled up with people until the share of representatives is equal to the popular vote outcome. You can garrymander yourself to win all districts with maybe 30% of the vote, you´d just end up with a really large parliament holding 30% of seats in it.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
LabQuest
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:49 am

art wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
art wrote:
What is the difference between an absentee vote and a postal vote please?


An absentee vote is requested through verifying information beforehand. A postal vote is mailed out to addresses on file whether or not the voter actually resides there.


Thanks for that explanation. I do not really understand the problem with mail in votes. If they need to be requested. they would be sent to the address given by the person making the request, would they not? I am trying to see where the fraud angle comes in.

In the UK electoral fraud by voters is rare according to official data. I think that in elections for a new government in which all constituences are required to hold an election, around 30 million votes are cast yet only a few hundred votes are fraudulent in nature.


The problem is that every state and locality is responsible for managing elections. There is no central election committee or anything like that. They all do it differently so the procedures would be different for mail in ballots as well.

Some problems I see are the fact that people move but a ballot would still be mailed to their old address or the local election commission can't set up a system to do this in a short amount of time.

I personally don't see an issue with it but I also don't see an issue with in person voting either. I early voted last week and the safety procedures in place were very good.
 
art
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:52 am

scbriml wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
When it comes to gerrymandering, there's no easy answer. Outlining electoral boundaries in any country is inherently political in one form or the other. In the US, the states are responsible for drawing their electoral boundaries.


It can easily become non-political. In the UK, the respective Boundary Commissions apply a set of rules to draw and redraw constituency boundaries as populations grow, shrink and move. Their work is independent of government or local politicians and parties.


:checkmark:

Perhaps the US is too politicised to tolerate apolitical adjustment of the electoral boundaries to reflect population demographics. Does not seem the best way of doing democracy to me.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:56 am

I thought I had put a reply already, but don't see it. If fraud is a potential issue, what did Trump do to better the system ?

I really have no issue with requiring an ID to vote as it's that way in my country (except in small villages where only the voting card is required, as "everyone knows everyone" ), however here a national ID card is free and easy to get, and required for many things anyway, including a lot of social services, so basically the poorer you are the better chance you rely on this card day to day. A driver license and passport are also accepted IDs. Another thing is that we vote on Sundays, so you need much less people to leave work to vote, and you don't have a lot of people coming all at the same time.

I also think the fact our elections are for one job, two at the most (rarely) plays a role. The presidential election is the presidential election, you're not asked to choose dozens of other things at the same time.

Example last presidential election in 2017, first round, pick one of those :

Image

Second round, 2 weeks later, pick one of those :

Image

Quick and simple.
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M564038
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:20 am

OMG! Did she really get to the last round?
That is scary as hell! And now that Macron is unpopular, what will happen next time? A france even crazier than the current US?


Aesma wrote:
I thought I had put a reply already, but don't see it. If fraud is a potential issue, what did Trump do to better the system ?

I really have no issue with requiring an ID to vote as it's that way in my country (except in small villages where only the voting card is required, as "everyone knows everyone" ), however here a national ID card is free and easy to get, and required for many things anyway, including a lot of social services, so basically the poorer you are the better chance you rely on this card day to day. A driver license and passport are also accepted IDs. Another thing is that we vote on Sundays, so you need much less people to leave work to vote, and you don't have a lot of people coming all at the same time.

I also think the fact our elections are for one job, two at the most (rarely) plays a role. The presidential election is the presidential election, you're not asked to choose dozens of other things at the same time.

Example last presidential election in 2017, first round, pick one of those :

Image

Second round, 2 weeks later, pick one of those :

Image

Quick and simple.
 
Olddog
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:33 am

You are confusing day to day popularity and the vote when there is an election. France electoral system for regular elections is made so extremists can't be elected by accident. I doubt, but who knows, that the far right can win that way.
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scbriml
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:09 pm

LabQuest wrote:
Some problems I see are the fact that people move but a ballot would still be mailed to their old address or the local election commission can't set up a system to do this in a short amount of time.


In the UK every household has to register to vote every year. If you move house to a different constituency, you can register to vote at the new constituency when you register with the local council. Same when you move within a constituency, you register at your new address for local taxes and voting. The people moving into your old address will register themselves at your old address and that will automatically flag that you're no longer living there. It's pretty straightforward.
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melpax
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:15 pm

scbriml wrote:
It can easily become non-political. In the UK, the respective Boundary Commissions apply a set of rules to draw and redraw constituency boundaries as populations grow, shrink and move. Their work is independent of government or local politicians and parties.


The same thing applies in Australia, there is a Federal electoral commission that maintains the electoral roll & sets the constituency boundaries on purely demographic grounds. All staff that work for this commission must maintain political neutrality as a condition of employment. The states also have their own electoral commissions, but they are solely responsible for the state constituencies only.

Elections here are always on a Saturday, which allows for local schools to be used as polling places. The electoral rolls close to new voters, and those wishing to change their addresses 7 days after an election is called, and they advertise this fact heavily once an election is called. New voters are generally put on the roll in their last years of high school as 'provisional voters', so they enter the roll proper once they turn 18.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... on_process


https://education.aec.gov.au/teacher-re ... tralia.pdf

Gerrymandering & voter suppression are virtually non-existent in Australia
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:49 pm

The key message as John Lewis said before he passed, get out and vote. This is what the Republicans fear the most. As we all know the words on the Statue of Liberty now apply to our own citizens born and raised here. Written in the last century. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Change the word your to ours and that describes multi millons here now, not there. It is outrageous and enraging that this is so.
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:06 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Of course, all of this "election delay" nonsense is just Trump's way of deflecting the spotlight away from the biggest drop in American GDP in history, on his watch.

You do realize that other presidents didn’t have a Covid-19 pandemic, don’t you?

I seem to recall one that had a flu outbreak and then the prospect of an Ebola outbreak (even though there was never any danger of Ebola spreading through the US, but in 2014 that was THE soundbyte to elect Republicans).

That same president took action right away. Yes, the flu is not as deadly, but apparently 115K cases and 3,433 deaths were seen as a failure of his administration. But I'm supposed to believe that there was nothing Trump could do, that 151k+ deaths is the price we need to pay for "freedom", and that all states closing down at the same time for 2-3 weeks would not have solved anything (even though many other countries closed for the same period and were able to curb new cases).

GDP was going to drop no matter what. I still haven't seen a country whose GDP grew this quarter. If action had been taken appropriately, the drop could have been softer than reported. If Trump had taken action immediately in January instead of March, and GDP still contracted, that's where we can all agree and say "he's done all he can". But as things stand right now, we have to wonder what if he HAD moved earlier.
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scbriml
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:10 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Of course, all of this "election delay" nonsense is just Trump's way of deflecting the spotlight away from the biggest drop in American GDP in history, on his watch.

You do realize that other presidents didn’t have a Covid-19 pandemic, don’t you?


You do realise that doesn't invalidate what I said, don't you?
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sabenapilot
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:05 pm

alfa164 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
He's losing and he knows it, so he's desperately trying to cling on to power in a way totally unacceptable in a democratic society: preventing people to express their will in order to be able to soldier on.


Reports are he is convinced he can't win unless the vaccine is available before election day; he is also convinced he can win if there is a vaccine (albeit I am not sure why we should give him credit once the vaccine is proven). Thus delaying - and hoping for an effective vaccine in the meantime - could very well be his plot.


I somehow understand he sees the correlation between COVID-19 and his spectacular slumps in the polls, but I fail to see how a quick reversal of the curve could save him.

In the end, voters are abandoning him not so much over the dramatic COVID curve itself, but over the consequences it has for their daily lives: the ruined economy, the dramatic job market, the buffoon he is exposed as being...

Provided there's a vaccine ready for public use by this autumn -which in itself is really fast BTW-, mandatory general vaccination first needs to be rolled out nationwide for it to have some sort of an impact.
Given how chaotic this administration is dealing with things and how ill equipped the government generally is in the USA, this is a process which will take many many months to set up and complete in an ordely way! Not to mention the fact he's to resist all political pressure from the antivaxer scene in his party then because vaccination has to be mandatory, not voluntarily for it to have any change of success.

Only when roughly 60% of the population is protected will we start to see a decline in new infections first, followed with a delay of a couple of weeks in the number of hospitalizations and finally the mortality rate will go down too: only after people wll start to see for themselves that indeed normal life can resume safely will we see consumer confidence and spending pick up again and ultimately the economy will slowly return to growth.

But adding all this up, this is a process which will take time, so at best we're looking at the end of Q2 of next year before any administration could point to some very modest and initial positive economic figures again. To be able to brag about a robustly booming economy, you'll have to add another year to that at least.

If he genuinely wants to wait for the economic figures to return to what they were before COVID-19, the elections should be postponed by at least 1.5 to 2 years... that's basically handing him half a second term just like that?!

Number 45's term will forever be defined by COVID-19; whoever gets elected in November will be remembered as the president that put the US economy back on track from the greatest recession ever and it's likely going to be the 46th President of the USofA.
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:46 pm

art wrote:
A few hours ago I heard Trump making a volte face and saying he did not want to postpone the election. Perhaps 'making a U-turn' would be a more appropriate description since he might not know what a volte face is.
So I guess that he has given up on extending his hold on power by preventing a November election removing him from power. I further guess that he will head down the road of refuting an election result which does not return him to power in the hope of hanging on just a little bit longer.
Is it conceivable that he might whip his so called base into action to defend him from the fraud perpetrated by those fraudulent postal votes his opponent received? You know, the faithful taking to the streets in support of their messiah. It seems to me that just about anything is possible with a man whose overwhelming interest is in furthering his own interest.


:checkmark: . Perhaps cooler heads have convinced him he does not have the power to delay the date; we can only hope AG Barr doesn't try to find some way to change that. Nevertheless, it is scary that a man holding the office of president would even support delaying the election, and should we dismiss or minimize the audacity and conceit of his even suggesting it.

Keep in mind that, with his uninhibited narcissistic personality, he has shown a lifelong refusal to acknowledge failure; once he loses in November, he will try to rationalize that defeat, whether by blaming imaginary voter fraud, the "deep state", and/or the incompetence of some campaign official - his fall guy de jour - or the American people as a whole. Right now, creating uncertainty about the balloting affords him an opening to raise questions about the election’s legitimacy, and to rile his basest supporters once the magnitude of his loss becomes clear.

flyguy89 wrote:
Why can't the Left ever seem to decide whether Trump is moron or a deranged Machiavellian genius usurper? One moment it's "hahaha covfefe what an absolute idiot. Dumb Drumpf strikes again" and the next he's a cunning Frank Underwood-House-of-Cards character. To me it's obvious...he's a blowhard moron and paper tiger. There neither is nor will be some brilliant subversive "coup" plot that sees him staying in office if he loses the election. He's only ever been good at one thing, and that's throwing Twitter grenades into the news cycle.

flyguy89 wrote:
He couldn't even pull off something that inconspicuous, yet he's going to mastermind some ingenious coup to stay in office? He's an idiot.


He is a showman. If he hadn't been selling real estate, he would have been selling used cars - or snake oil. He has no empathy or sympathy for other people; he has no scruples; and he has no shame... but he does know how to grab attention - for better, or for worse. He has created a cult - a personality cult - and sold his bill-of-goods to a surprising number of people.

My biggest disappointment is not in him; my biggest disappointment is in the number of my fellow citizens - and fellow conservatives - who have bought into his schtick.
Last edited by alfa164 on Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:46 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Why can't the Left ever seem to decide whether Trump is moron or a deranged Machiavellian genius usurper? One moment it's "hahaha covfefe what an absolute idiot. Dumb Drumpf strikes again" and the next he's a cunning Frank Underwood-House-of-Cards character. To me it's obvious...he's a blowhard moron and paper tiger. There neither is nor will be some brilliant subversive "coup" plot that sees him staying in office if he loses the election. He's only ever been good at one thing, and that's throwing Twitter grenades into the news cycle.

Who has ever said he's a "deranged Machiavellian genius usurper"? He's always been dumb as a box of hair. It just took the GOP a few decades to sink to his intellectual level. Even Palin had a few firing synapses.

Newark727 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
How is the US system so fundamentally broken that basic voting systems used safely and widely around the world cannot be implemented. That the system is so broken that even a few are able to believe what Trump is saying is truly gobsmacking to literally every other developed democracy on the planet.

Every time I visit the US I really enjoy so much about it, but I cannot comprehend the insecure, old fashioned, wasteful ways of its bureaucracy at nearly every level.


The problem is essentially one of the politicians being voted for being the same people who get to decide how politicians get voted for. It's a fundamental conflict of interest that's gone on 200 years, but the judicial system continues to consider it outside their purview, so it's almost impossible to change. Right now, conservatives are still convinced that making it easier for people to vote hurts their chances when the votes are counted. I don't think it's that simple anymore, but the perception drives the reality.

What I don't understand is the olds lurrrrrve absentee ballots/vote by mail, and they generally are the GOP's base, so by going after vote by mail, they're going after their own base? Then again with Covid, the GOP is disproportionately killing them too.
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Aesma
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:53 pm

I forgot to mention that in France, presidential election dates can change if needed. The current date is linked to the death of president George Pompidou while in power, since we don't have a replacement president ready. I don't know what would cause the date to be changed, but that would be decided by the National Assembly. I guess if it was a presidential promise before election, (s)he could do it. Some candidates want to go back to the previous 7-year long presidential term (possibly limited to one single term).

One problem in the US is that the date has been the same for centuries, so changing it seems like a more drastic change than it is.

M564038 wrote:
OMG! Did she really get to the last round?
That is scary as hell! And now that Macron is unpopular, what will happen next time? A france even crazier than the current US?


The traditional left and traditional right both lost in favor of Macron (center) and Le Pen (far right). Next time in 2022, it's difficult to know who will be a candidate, aside from Macron (fairly probable but not a given, his predecessor wasn't a candidate to reelection) and Le Pen (although she tries to say it isn't a given, someone better might replace her, but I don't believe it). In polls so far, she would still lose, although by less of a margin.

France wouldn't get crazier than the US though, Le Pen is more of a normal politician than Trump, she tries to avoid the racism and antisemitism of her father. Her economic proposals don't make sense, and she has gone back on her idea to leave the EU and Euro currency, so basically we don't know what she'd do. What would people do, we don't know either, I could definitely see some massive riots.

Also, although that never happened, it's possible Le Pen could win the presidential election, while her party wouldn't win a majority in the National Assembly. In that case she couldn't do anything.
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flyguy89
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:33 pm

scbriml wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
When it comes to gerrymandering, there's no easy answer. Outlining electoral boundaries in any country is inherently political in one form or the other. In the US, the states are responsible for drawing their electoral boundaries.


It can easily become non-political. In the UK, the respective Boundary Commissions apply a set of rules to draw and redraw constituency boundaries as populations grow, shrink and move. Their work is independent of government or local politicians and parties.

It's certainly political. How else do you think you arrived at such a solution?

alfa164 wrote:
My biggest disappointment is not in him; my biggest disappointment is in the number of my fellow citizens - and fellow conservatives - who have bought into his schtick.

I cannot tell you how painful that's been. As I mentioned, I never did register as a Republican, but when I was younger there were quite a number of constitutional conservative voices I enjoyed listening to...all of who were hard against Trump during the primary, but have now just turned into the Trumpiest of Trump mouthpieces. If Obama were doing a fraction of the crap that Trump has gotten away with, I just know they'd be screaming, but somehow Trump doing it is OK? Just painful, and disappointing as you say.
 
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:33 pm

Newark727 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
How is the US system so fundamentally broken that basic voting systems used safely and widely around the world cannot be implemented. That the system is so broken that even a few are able to believe what Trump is saying is truly gobsmacking to literally every other developed democracy on the planet.

Every time I visit the US I really enjoy so much about it, but I cannot comprehend the insecure, old fashioned, wasteful ways of its bureaucracy at nearly every level.


The problem is essentially one of the politicians being voted for being the same people who get to decide how politicians get voted for. It's a fundamental conflict of interest that's gone on 200 years, but the judicial system continues to consider it outside their purview, so it's almost impossible to change. Right now, conservatives are still convinced that making it easier for people to vote hurts their chances when the votes are counted. I don't think it's that simple anymore, but the perception drives the reality.


Everyone knows Congress is doing horribly. No matter when we are asked, we all think Congress is awful. However, when asked about our personal three elected officials (two Senators and one House member) we think they are great.

Another issue is the amount of money spent to keep the two party system. If we would get money out of it, we could have more voices, more political parties and a government that looked like We The People. House members are elected every two years. As soon as they are elected and sworn in, they have to begin fund raising for the next election.
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seb146
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:38 pm

How massive is voting fraud done by mail? Where are the hundreds or thousands of ballots that had to be thrown out because of mail in voting fraud? I have been voting by mail for years and years and have yet to hear any reports of massive voting fraud by mail.

As far as identification, Oregon automatically registers people to vote when they prove they are a legal citizen. Problem solved.
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:02 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
My biggest disappointment is not in him; my biggest disappointment is in the number of my fellow citizens - and fellow conservatives - who have bought into his schtick.

I cannot tell you how painful that's been. As I mentioned, I never did register as a Republican, but when I was younger there were quite a number of constitutional conservative voices I enjoyed listening to...all of who were hard against Trump during the primary, but have now just turned into the Trumpiest of Trump mouthpieces. If Obama were doing a fraction of the crap that Trump has gotten away with, I just know they'd be screaming, but somehow Trump doing it is OK? Just painful, and disappointing as you say.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: THIS! All over the place.

The asinine silence and obsequious followers that seemly are incapable of either refusing his schlock crap or standing up to him is pathetic. And there is his "base", and base is the perfect description of what they are. Pandering, loudmouth, unethical, uncivil, refusing to think and that he's magically right. It is sooo pathetic to see all the many friends that are or were staunch Republican's and conservative frothing about some imagined injustice that Trump and those that live off him (right-wing talk shows etc.) have made up is really sickening. I just don't get it that otherwise intelligent people can become like that.

Trump is a poor president.

.... You know I have said that consistently but honestly he is worse than a poor president, he is a destructive one, damaging to his own nation and party (well he really isn't a Republican but the party has so far caved to him as I note above).

All right, enough ranting. I can't wait for his loss in November. Not that I like Biden but the Republicans have sadly earned this loss. I can only hope it leads to a thorough and deep re-exmination of the party but I doubt it. I can only imagine the screeching all those that are currently in favor of Trump will be doing when he loses and that will all be directed at Biden and at any "disloyal" Republicans.

Tugg
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alfa164
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:30 pm

Tugger wrote:
.... You know I have said that consistently but honestly he is worse than a poor president, he is a destructive one, damaging to his own nation and party (well he really isn't a Republican but the party has so far caved to him as I note above).


He has weaponized chaos. Well, actually, Putin is probably the master at that, but Trump has taken it - in the USA, at least - to a new level. As Dahlia Lithwick put it:

"The singular beauty of weaponized chaos muppetry is that one can do all of those bad things at the same time. And the singular purpose of weaponized chaos muppetry is to immediately foment discord among anyone who actually cares about, say, the cratering economy, and the COVID death count, and the Republican failure to protect unemployment benefits, and the integrity of the election, and the continued functioning of imperiled institutions, and about which of those things is the real thing and which is the shiny object. When Steve Bannon reportedly talked in 2018 about how the enemy was the media and how you deal with the media by “flood[ing] the zone with shit,” this is what he was tilting at: If you can just kick up infinite dust storms comprised of infinite particles, each of which may or may not be true or salient or important, you can rapidly get to the point at which everything simultaneously matters too much and nothing seems to matter at all."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/trump-threat-to-delay-election-distraction.html?via=taps_top

Creating a "fog of disinformation" prevents us from coalescing around a common, coherent message. We are no longer only divided ideologically; we are divided in what we believe reality to be. George Orwell was right.


Tugger wrote:
I can only hope it leads to a thorough and deep re-exmination of the party but I doubt it. I can only imagine the screeching all those that are currently in favor of Trump will be doing when he loses and that will all be directed at Biden and at any "disloyal" Republicans.


It seems like every time we suffer a significant loss, we see a new committee formed to examine the carcass; that committee inevitably comes to the conclusion that we need to broaden the party, appeal to younger voters, attract more minority voters, etc, et al. Then the next election comes, the extreme elements emerge and take control of the primaries, and we get... Trump. And his ilk.

It is easy to get the "true believers" to the polls in the primaries; until we get more participation from more broadly representative groups, we are stuck in the hamster wheel of over-dogmatic ideology. That is how we get these disasters. That is how we got Trump.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:51 pm

Please keep the thread on topic.

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seb146
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:57 am

Another "acting" secretary is making bad things worse for Americans but great for MAGA

https://www.chicagotribune.com/election ... story.html
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/31/politics ... index.html
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:07 am

luckyone wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
How is the US system so fundamentally broken that basic voting systems used safely and widely around the world cannot be implemented. That the system is so broken that even a few are able to believe what Trump is saying is truly gobsmacking to literally every other developed democracy on the planet.

Every time I visit the US I really enjoy so much about it, but I cannot comprehend the insecure, old fashioned, wasteful ways of its bureaucracy at nearly every level.

The answer is simple. We have a large percentage of our electorate that is effectively illiterate by their own choosing. About half of those people vote Democrat, and the other half Republican. And because they are incapable of nuanced thought they have to be thrummed up with sound bytes and angry rhetoric about how bad the other guys are.


I want to buy you a beer for that answer. Well done.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:16 am

Tugger wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
My biggest disappointment is not in him; my biggest disappointment is in the number of my fellow citizens - and fellow conservatives - who have bought into his schtick.

I cannot tell you how painful that's been. As I mentioned, I never did register as a Republican, but when I was younger there were quite a number of constitutional conservative voices I enjoyed listening to...all of who were hard against Trump during the primary, but have now just turned into the Trumpiest of Trump mouthpieces. If Obama were doing a fraction of the crap that Trump has gotten away with, I just know they'd be screaming, but somehow Trump doing it is OK? Just painful, and disappointing as you say.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: THIS! All over the place.

The asinine silence and obsequious followers that seemly are incapable of either refusing his schlock crap or standing up to him is pathetic. And there is his "base", and base is the perfect description of what they are. Pandering, loudmouth, unethical, uncivil, refusing to think and that he's magically right. It is sooo pathetic to see all the many friends that are or were staunch Republican's and conservative frothing about some imagined injustice that Trump and those that live off him (right-wing talk shows etc.) have made up is really sickening. I just don't get it that otherwise intelligent people can become like that.

Trump is a poor president.

.... You know I have said that consistently but honestly he is worse than a poor president, he is a destructive one, damaging to his own nation and party (well he really isn't a Republican but the party has so far caved to him as I note above).

All right, enough ranting. I can't wait for his loss in November. Not that I like Biden but the Republicans have sadly earned this loss. I can only hope it leads to a thorough and deep re-exmination of the party but I doubt it. I can only imagine the screeching all those that are currently in favor of Trump will be doing when he loses and that will all be directed at Biden and at any "disloyal" Republicans.

Tugg


I agree Trump is full of schlock crap, and is a poor president. But neoliberalism fell down under its own weight. They ought to blame themselves, not act as if Trump is such an overwhelming genius that no one could have stopped him. The Establishment is corrupt to the bone, and utterly disdains 80% of the people in the country.

The Establishment became so hidebound, so inept, so blind, that Donald Trump (a buffoon reality show guy) not only beat all of the Republicans - he also beat all of the Democrats in the same year. Think about that... I really wish people would, rather than blaming him. It's actually not his fault.
 
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:22 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Tugger wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I cannot tell you how painful that's been. As I mentioned, I never did register as a Republican, but when I was younger there were quite a number of constitutional conservative voices I enjoyed listening to...all of who were hard against Trump during the primary, but have now just turned into the Trumpiest of Trump mouthpieces. If Obama were doing a fraction of the crap that Trump has gotten away with, I just know they'd be screaming, but somehow Trump doing it is OK? Just painful, and disappointing as you say.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: THIS! All over the place.

The asinine silence and obsequious followers that seemly are incapable of either refusing his schlock crap or standing up to him is pathetic. And there is his "base", and base is the perfect description of what they are. Pandering, loudmouth, unethical, uncivil, refusing to think and that he's magically right. It is sooo pathetic to see all the many friends that are or were staunch Republican's and conservative frothing about some imagined injustice that Trump and those that live off him (right-wing talk shows etc.) have made up is really sickening. I just don't get it that otherwise intelligent people can become like that.

Trump is a poor president.

.... You know I have said that consistently but honestly he is worse than a poor president, he is a destructive one, damaging to his own nation and party (well he really isn't a Republican but the party has so far caved to him as I note above).

All right, enough ranting. I can't wait for his loss in November. Not that I like Biden but the Republicans have sadly earned this loss. I can only hope it leads to a thorough and deep re-exmination of the party but I doubt it. I can only imagine the screeching all those that are currently in favor of Trump will be doing when he loses and that will all be directed at Biden and at any "disloyal" Republicans.

Tugg


I agree Trump is full of schlock crap, and is a poor president. But neoliberalism fell down under its own weight. They ought to blame themselves, not act as if Trump is such an overwhelming genius that no one could have stopped him. The Establishment is corrupt to the bone, and utterly disdains 80% of the people in the country.

The Establishment became so hidebound, so inept, so blind, that Donald Trump (a buffoon reality show guy) not only beat all of the Republicans - he also beat all of the Democrats in the same year. Think about that... I really wish people would, rather than blaming him. It's actually not his fault.


Trump is the epitome of people not able to move forward and adapt to the new world. Trump won by convincing less than 100,000 folks that he could save their jobs from being outsourced. He didn't save those jobsm and now we are faced with a furthering of a world where people do not have the service skills or training to compete going forward.
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Kent350787
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:53 am

Trump is actively proving that he is no friend of democracy.

There is abundant eveidence that Trump is the worst president to date.
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:10 am

Kent350787 wrote:
There is abundant eveidence that Trump is the worst president to date.


It's difficult to imagine any future president taking that title away from him.
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jetwet1
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:40 pm

Kent350787 wrote:

. Most other modern democratic countries have sound voting systems with very low fraud levels.


Here is the thing, in the 2016 and 2018 elections (we vote every two years, 2016 was the Presidential election) the estimated fraudulent ballots came to 0.0025%....Or roughly 3250 total votes....That's based on the results from 5 states.

On the White House website, it lists a total of 1071 for the 2012 election which comes out to 0.000085%... So yes, there could be a possible trend...I guess...In a couple of thousand years there could be an issue I guess. Except the White House piece took great pains to not really explain the fact that the majority of those fraudulent votes were cast for local electives.

What I am getting at is, IQ 45 is trying to push a story that just isn't there, sure there are idiots out there who will try and game the system, but, lets double the amount of fraudulent votes, make it 6500, make it on for the Presidential part of the election....What does it change....Well nothing....

Anyways, what I am getting at is, the US, despite what our President says, has a sound voting system*.

*except maybe Florida, but you know, it's Florida.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:54 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:

. Most other modern democratic countries have sound voting systems with very low fraud levels.


Here is the thing, in the 2016 and 2018 elections (we vote every two years, 2016 was the Presidential election) the estimated fraudulent ballots came to 0.0025%....Or roughly 3250 total votes....That's based on the results from 5 states.

On the White House website, it lists a total of 1071 for the 2012 election which comes out to 0.000085%... So yes, there could be a possible trend...I guess...In a couple of thousand years there could be an issue I guess. Except the White House piece took great pains to not really explain the fact that the majority of those fraudulent votes were cast for local electives.

What I am getting at is, IQ 45 is trying to push a story that just isn't there, sure there are idiots out there who will try and game the system, but, lets double the amount of fraudulent votes, make it 6500, make it on for the Presidential part of the election....What does it change....Well nothing....

Anyways, what I am getting at is, the US, despite what our President says, has a sound voting system*.

*except maybe Florida, but you know, it's Florida.


On a national level this has never been tried before. Even though we have individual states that have experience with it...CBS did a study they mailed 100 test ballots same envelopes same everything to one address only 97 showed up so a 3% percent didn't make it. Now apply that to 300 million people and you can see why there is concern. Not even taking fraud into consideration. There are plenty of people still on the voting rolls of states that are dead or otherwise ineligible that could potentially be mailed in by others. Sorry but if protesting in the streets en masse is ok as is home depot and lowes and Kroger then we can make voting in person safe. My voting station is a church I am super high risk and I would be fine with voting there limit the amount of people in there and require masks of everyone. I don't think our postal service is up to the task of mass voting on this level. No matter who wins this there will be crying on all levels. Clinton and you liberals still haven't gotten over 2016.
 
Max Q
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:37 am

Delay means cancel in his deranged ‘brain’

This is just the start, Democracy is at stake here, chump will do anything and everything to hold on to power


Whether our system will survive this is seriously uncertain at this point, it depends on several factors


Will his pathetic enablers finally stand up to him ?

Will law enforcement stand up for the law or their hero who endorses their brutality?


The Supreme Court and the survival of RBG until the election


The military and their willingness to go along with his insanity, so far the senior leadership don’t seem willing to do that



He is without doubt the most dangerous person in the world, a deranged, racist, treasonous criminal and he must be removed from office


The world will not survive otherwise
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GGg
 
art
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:47 pm

Max Q wrote:
He is without doubt the most dangerous person in the world, a deranged, racist, treasonous criminal and he must be removed from office


But unfortunately the US senate is full (or almost full) of people who do not have the integrity to do their job eg vote to remove a president who sought to undermine the democratic process with the aid of a foreign power. To a non-US observer US politics appears to be sadly lacking. Principled people, not partisan people are required for good government IMO.
 
Drafran
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:03 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
He's only ever been good at one thing, and that's throwing Twitter grenades into the news cycle.


Oh, I don't know about that. The "stable genius" (did I hear a horse whinny?) did a bang up job bankrupting--how many businesses? Five? Seven? How many other "billionaires" have that kind of track record?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:26 pm

art wrote:
Max Q wrote:
He is without doubt the most dangerous person in the world, a deranged, racist, treasonous criminal and he must be removed from office


But unfortunately the US senate is full (or almost full) of people who do not have the integrity to do their job eg vote to remove a president who sought to undermine the democratic process with the aid of a foreign power. To a non-US observer US politics appears to be sadly lacking. Principled people, not partisan people are required for good government IMO.


I would say Xi still wins by a rather large margin.

best regards
Thomas
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atcsundevil
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:54 pm

Please keep the thread on topic. The 2000 presidential election is a separate discussion.

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MDGLongBeach
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Re: Trump Wants to Postpone Election

Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:29 pm

Derico wrote:
So let me get this right: open schools, bars, sports, concerts, beaches, parties at all costs... but an election, now that one is a danger to public health. LOL.


bingo.

In all seriousness, why can't we have better candidates than fraud Trump and brain dead Biden? Wouldn't we all have loved a Reagan vs Mondale again. The future of this country looks grim from every angle we see right now.

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Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos