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Scotron12
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Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:48 am

The owner of Apple Daily Newspaper, Jimmy Lai, was arrested under the recently enacted Security Law, for colluding with foreign forces.

Lai is a well known supporter of democracy in HK.

Total of 10 people were held, including his two sons.

I think China is out of control.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53732436
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:57 am

They are, but as far as Premier Xi is concerned, this is ‘control’. Not a word from the WH about this or the mayhem in Minsk. The US has truly abdicated its leadership role.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Aesma
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:34 am

They're not trying to be subtle about it, arresting a prominent opponent like that.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
KFTG
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:36 am

Scotron12 wrote:
I think China is out of control.

WW3 will involve China as a belligerent. Quote me.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:39 am

Aesma wrote:
They're not trying to be subtle about it, arresting a prominent opponent like that.


time to copy & paste the North Korea Sanctions onto China.

The Peoples Republic of China is freedoms worst enemy and seeks to destroy democracy and human rights worldwide, since that is the only lasting way to address the seven problems:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Number_Nine

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:46 am

KFTG wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
I think China is out of control.

WW3 will involve China as a belligerent. Quote me.


:checkmark:
We followed Neville Chamberlains foolish ideas for decades, only to see an ever more aggressive China. It is time to stop the appeasement before world war III is the only option to stop the new Empire of Evil with its Gulag System, lack of Independent courts (99.93% conviction rate, i wonder why they even bother to pretend), lack of freedom of speech/press/religion, lack of reproductive rights and all the other crimes against humanity they constantly commit.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tu204
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:36 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
They're not trying to be subtle about it, arresting a prominent opponent like that.


time to copy & paste the North Korea Sanctions onto China.

Thomas


Very unlikely that would happen. They pretty much own the United States right now.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tommy1808
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:21 pm

tu204 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
They're not trying to be subtle about it, arresting a prominent opponent like that.


time to copy & paste the North Korea Sanctions onto China.

Thomas


Very unlikely that would happen. They pretty much own the United States right now.


Considering that Huawei just needed to stock high value ICs for over 20 Billion USD at purportedly significant premiums to avoid being out of business before 2020 is out, that does not seem to be true.

And since "soft on China" is, thanks to Trump, political suicide now, one can hope that Biden decides to kill their economy. China is not a low tech country like Russia and absolutely dependent on high tech import, so sanctions and embargo have quick effects.They just need to be targeted right.

Also, Copy & Paste the North Korea sanctions onto China is just about the only way to make North Korea Sanctions stick.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
johns624
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:32 pm

tu204 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
They're not trying to be subtle about it, arresting a prominent opponent like that.


time to copy & paste the North Korea Sanctions onto China.

Thomas


Very unlikely that would happen. They pretty much own the United States right now.
I posted a couple of days ago on a gun forum about a high end US optics/scope manufacturer suing a Chinese government owned company over patent infringement. The answers were either a yawn or "I'll buy the Chinese because it's cheaper". This from "good ole boy patriotic Trump supporters".
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:16 pm

Well, at least somebody finally start a thread over this :).

While the arrests are still shocking, Jimmy Lai (the media mogul) himself is probably not surprised as HK govt keeps finding new way to set new lows.

And the accusation, which basically said Lai (and Next Media Group) used money to help some online lobbying/activist group (3 of the activists were also arrest, the most prominent being Agnes Chow) that want sanctioning of HK officials.

The whole arrest sounds 100% like revenge anyway, as the arrests happened a day after US announce sanctioning of 11 HK/Mainland officials, including the Chief Executive, over their BS during the protest last year along with promoting the Narional Security Law (NSL) that basically made HK just as bad (if not worse) as mainland.

Ultimately, while CCP is a huge problem that should have been dealt with, this arrest is all on a bunch of ass-kissing officials of HK who keep wanting to "accomplish" something to please the master. The latter to me is always a much larger problem than the CCP itself anyway.

BTW, in parallel with the crackdown on Apple Daily, you also have this BS going on:
https://hongkongfp.com/2020/08/11/apple ... perations/

Basically they are further eroding the freedom of press and try to control the narrative by only having "trusted" (which means, well, pro-CCP) media being able to do their actual job.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:49 pm

The actions of the PRC government in Hong Kong is about pride, history, a rejection of the last vestiges of colonialism, taking control of their economy and wealth. The current leadership wishes to renounce totally what they believe are illegal and immoral agreements from the mid-1800's to the present as to HK's status to take full control now and not recognize agreements that limit a full end of autonomy until 2047. Some countries have supported the PRC's policies in HK for the previously noted reasons but others fear an end of Western (UK) contract and financial laws which are far better respected than that of the PRC.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:08 pm

Most countries , while having skin in the game in Hong Kong, have more in the game with China at this point. There is going to be some difficult decisions coming in the future, but for now Hong Kong is a lesson in the after shocks of Colonialism. People that liked living under British Rule are not going to do well under Chinese rule.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:29 pm

If by sanctions we mean removing privileges, like afforded to HK financial entities, or trade agreements, I'm not against it, but outright sanctions, when we don't care about plenty other awful countries, that actually do damage us (Saudi Arabia), I disagree.

The one country involved in most wars since WW2 is the USA, not China.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:35 pm

ltbewr wrote:
The actions of the PRC government in Hong Kong is about pride, history, a rejection of the last vestiges of colonialism, taking control of their economy and wealth. The current leadership wishes to renounce totally what they believe are illegal and immoral agreements from the mid-1800's to the present as to HK's status to take full control now and not recognize agreements that limit a full end of autonomy until 2047. Some countries have supported the PRC's policies in HK for the previously noted reasons but others fear an end of Western (UK) contract and financial laws which are far better respected than that of the PRC.


For me, western countries need to stop pretending that HK is salvageable. The actions US is taking is a good start, but far from enough. If anything, make it hard for USD to be used as the transaction money in HK and see how quick it goes under. For that matter, just end that peg between HKD and USD already, and we will see how quick those big biz in HK cry.

Once the worthless CCP cronies are done with the activists they will move onto the financial sector anyway. Capital control? Red tapes for dealing with anything not mainland? Those will come.

EDIT:
Aesma wrote:
If by sanctions we mean removing privileges, like afforded to HK financial entities, or trade agreements, I'm not against it, but outright sanctions, when we don't care about plenty other awful countries, that actually do damage us (Saudi Arabia), I disagree.

The one country involved in most wars since WW2 is the USA, not China.


Personally, I am all for decoupling with shithole countries like Saudi Arabia also. Screw that so-call "ally" that backstab USA time and time again.
=============
BTW, Jimmy Lai is now released on bail along with other activists (i.e. Agnes Chow).
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:46 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
The actions of the PRC government in Hong Kong is about pride, history, a rejection of the last vestiges of colonialism, taking control of their economy and wealth. The current leadership wishes to renounce totally what they believe are illegal and immoral agreements from the mid-1800's to the present as to HK's status to take full control now and not recognize agreements that limit a full end of autonomy until 2047. Some countries have supported the PRC's policies in HK for the previously noted reasons but others fear an end of Western (UK) contract and financial laws which are far better respected than that of the PRC.


For me, western countries need to stop pretending that HK is salvageable. The actions US is taking is a good start, but far from enough. If anything, make it hard for USD to be used as the transaction money in HK and see how quick it goes under. For that matter, just end that peg between HKD and USD already, and we will see how quick those big biz in HK cry.

Once the worthless CCP cronies are done with the activists they will move onto the financial sector anyway. Capital control? Red tapes for dealing with anything not mainland? Those will come.


So the best way to punish China for its actions in Hong Kong is to punish the people of HK by destroying the city's economy?

Sanctions against HK politicians are one thing, but sanctioning HK's economy just makes life even worse for Hong Kongers who are now going to lose their livelihoods in addition to losing a bunch of freedoms.
Why must they pay for it all? After all, they very much didn't ask for any of this.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:01 pm

Francoflier wrote:
So the best way to punish China for its actions in Hong Kong is to punish the people of HK by destroying the city's economy?

Sanctions against HK politicians are one thing, but sanctioning HK's economy just makes life even worse for Hong Kongers who are now going to lose their livelihoods in addition to losing a bunch of freedoms.
Why must they pay for it all? After all, they very much didn't ask for any of this.

Because the Chinese leadership insists they "pay." This is on China, not the nations outside taking action against what is happening there. For one example look at how the UK offered to take in Hong Kong residents and grant them citizenship. What was China's response?

China is the one at fault.
And that can't stop the world from withdrawing HK's "special status", what have you or putting sanctions in place against China (of which HK is part).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
tommy1808
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:22 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Aesma wrote:
If by sanctions we mean removing privileges, like afforded to HK financial entities, or trade agreements, I'm not against it, but outright sanctions, when we don't care about plenty other awful countries, that actually do damage us (Saudi Arabia), I disagree.

The one country involved in most wars since WW2 is the USA, not China.


Personally, I am all for decoupling with shithole countries like Saudi Arabia also. Screw that so-call "ally" that backstab USA time and time again.
=============
.


The pivot away from fossil fuels opens up a golden opportunity to do just that. Switch to an "No Vote - no Trade" policy ...

Tugger wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
So the best way to punish China for its actions in Hong Kong is to punish the people of HK by destroying the city's economy?

Sanctions against HK politicians are one thing, but sanctioning HK's economy just makes life even worse for Hong Kongers who are now going to lose their livelihoods in addition to losing a bunch of freedoms.
Why must they pay for it all? After all, they very much didn't ask for any of this.

Because the Chinese leadership insists they "pay." This is on China, not the nations outside taking action against what is happening there. For one example look at how the UK offered to take in Hong Kong residents and grant them citizenship. What was China's response?

China is the one at fault.
And that can't stop the world from withdrawing HK's "special status", what have you or putting sanctions in place against China (of which HK is part).

Tugg


And what's the alternative? Do nothing, and watch the CCP destroy the very idea of democracy or human rights? Ordering Hitjobs on 80 million party members?

Now is the perfect time for sanctions, China is not just absolutely dependent on exports, all of it's high tech industry is crucially dependent on imports. We could quite literally turn of all of Chinas high value industry within a couple of weeks or month, depending on stock.

Its basically now, never or WW3.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:50 pm

Francoflier wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
The actions of the PRC government in Hong Kong is about pride, history, a rejection of the last vestiges of colonialism, taking control of their economy and wealth. The current leadership wishes to renounce totally what they believe are illegal and immoral agreements from the mid-1800's to the present as to HK's status to take full control now and not recognize agreements that limit a full end of autonomy until 2047. Some countries have supported the PRC's policies in HK for the previously noted reasons but others fear an end of Western (UK) contract and financial laws which are far better respected than that of the PRC.


For me, western countries need to stop pretending that HK is salvageable. The actions US is taking is a good start, but far from enough. If anything, make it hard for USD to be used as the transaction money in HK and see how quick it goes under. For that matter, just end that peg between HKD and USD already, and we will see how quick those big biz in HK cry.

Once the worthless CCP cronies are done with the activists they will move onto the financial sector anyway. Capital control? Red tapes for dealing with anything not mainland? Those will come.


So the best way to punish China for its actions in Hong Kong is to punish the people of HK by destroying the city's economy?

Sanctions against HK politicians are one thing, but sanctioning HK's economy just makes life even worse for Hong Kongers who are now going to lose their livelihoods in addition to losing a bunch of freedoms.
Why must they pay for it all? After all, they very much didn't ask for any of this.


One had to ask, though, who's the one really benefiting from the current system in HK anyway? Certainly not your average joes, and certainly not the younger generations.

It is definitely the action of last resort, though, and for me, just targeting those money flow to/from mainland using HK as the middleman is enough for me. And definitely more sanctions not just from US but also countries all over.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:09 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
I think China is out of control.

WW3 will involve China as a belligerent. Quote me.


:checkmark:
We followed Neville Chamberlains foolish ideas for decades, only to see an ever more aggressive China. It is time to stop the appeasement before world war III is the only option to stop the new Empire of Evil with its Gulag System, lack of Independent courts (99.93% conviction rate, i wonder why they even bother to pretend), lack of freedom of speech/press/religion, lack of reproductive rights and all the other crimes against humanity they constantly commit.

best regards
Thomas


Agreed, appeasement never works. It only postpones the inevitable.
 
Iloveboeing
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:04 am

Aaron747 wrote:
They are, but as far as Premier Xi is concerned, this is ‘control’. Not a word from the WH about this or the mayhem in Minsk. The US has truly abdicated its leadership role.


XI is the President, General Secretary of the CPC and Chairman of the Central Military Commission. He is the head of state, not the premier , which is the head of government. The premier is Li Keqiang.
 
Max Q
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:13 am

Very sad,

I lived in Hong Kong for ten years, it was my childhood home and will always remain so
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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c933103
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:36 am

ltbewr wrote:
The actions of the PRC government in Hong Kong is about pride, history, a rejection of the last vestiges of colonialism, taking control of their economy and wealth. The current leadership wishes to renounce totally what they believe are illegal and immoral agreements from the mid-1800's to the present as to HK's status to take full control now and not recognize agreements that limit a full end of autonomy until 2047. Some countries have supported the PRC's policies in HK for the previously noted reasons but others fear an end of Western (UK) contract and financial laws which are far better respected than that of the PRC.

Fighting colonialism and imperialism using colonialism and imperialism ...
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stratosphere
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:46 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

time to copy & paste the North Korea Sanctions onto China.

Thomas


Very unlikely that would happen. They pretty much own the United States right now.


Considering that Huawei just needed to stock high value ICs for over 20 Billion USD at purportedly significant premiums to avoid being out of business before 2020 is out, that does not seem to be true.

And since "soft on China" is, thanks to Trump, political suicide now, one can hope that Biden decides to kill their economy. China is not a low tech country like Russia and absolutely dependent on high tech import, so sanctions and embargo have quick effects.They just need to be targeted right.

Also, Copy & Paste the North Korea sanctions onto China is just about the only way to make North Korea Sanctions stick.

best regards
Thomas


Totally agree with sanctions on China but at this point we let China get to the point of no return. As for Trump being "soft on China" that's a laugh Clinton is the one who signed in China's favored nation status and let this monster out of it's cage. That's the problem with our country we think we can open the doors to a communist country by showing them capitalism..Well they certainly took the the capitalism part and ran with it but kept the hammer on it's citizens. It may be too late at this point but the world needs to shut them out we waited too long. China will dominate the world someday it might be in my lifetime even which isn't very much longer. Biden is as much in China's pocket as anybody is. His son Hunter got rich off China as he did with his Russia. Too many big businesses and politicians have too much to lose by getting rough with China It is at the point of no control I am afraid.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:20 am

stratosphere wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Very unlikely that would happen. They pretty much own the United States right now.


Considering that Huawei just needed to stock high value ICs for over 20 Billion USD at purportedly significant premiums to avoid being out of business before 2020 is out, that does not seem to be true.

And since "soft on China" is, thanks to Trump, political suicide now, one can hope that Biden decides to kill their economy. China is not a low tech country like Russia and absolutely dependent on high tech import, so sanctions and embargo have quick effects.They just need to be targeted right.

Also, Copy & Paste the North Korea sanctions onto China is just about the only way to make North Korea Sanctions stick.

best regards
Thomas


Totally agree with sanctions on China but at this point we let China get to the point of no return.


Na, we didn´t. In fact *now* is the golden opportunity to hurt them.

a) Lots of companies move manufacturing capacity out of China, and that started in earnest long before Corona. I remember a presentation in Taipei in 2010, where a taiwanese company explained why they won´t have a factory on the mainland: the mainland was already close to cost parity, and would be noncompetitive with other options before the decade is out. They where right on the money. The machine builders my company sells to are making money hands over fist equipping and commissioning new factories all over Asia, anywhere but China.
b) There are fewer products without alternatives other than China, if there are any left. There are now actually products you could get from China, but can´t get from there anymore.
c) China is still crucially dependent on imports, especially on those that require the USA to "ok" them. Think of any Chinese tech company with a hardware business. They could go out of business essentially over night, if Trump just decided to not just stop companies to ship to Huawei, but to all of their tech companies.

and so on and so forth

As for Trump being "soft on China" that's a laugh


Oh no, it ain´t. So, Trump got tough on China by imposing tariffs on metal imports. Great! He then backpaddled to a point where only 1% of those are actually effected by his tariffs:
https://www.piie.com/blogs/trade-and-in ... ut-control

Putting tariffs on an trade item, and then remove it from 99% of that sounds pretty soft to me.

Also: Since he also put the same tariffs on most of the alternative capacity, demand barely shifted. And hit Japan, the EU and Taiwan harder than China. Those would be your natural allies against them, yet he chose to hurt them instead of forming a coalition, that all of them would per perfectly willing to join.

Just ask yourself why the Junta in Beijing chose *now* to take Hongkong for good? Because they knew there wouldn´t be an effective response from the Trump government, and without that, no one else could mount one, because even the EU with its size and economy can not do that without the US on board from the get go. They didn´t wait for Biden to take office, which they still would very much want because of stability, but had to take Hongkong first because they new a US Government under Biden may react with less bluster, but far more efficient that the needle pricks Trump is dishing out.

Clinton is the one who signed in China's favored nation status and let this monster out of it's cage.


Well, not quite. With the WTO membership most favored nation status comes automatically, and the cage was long open at the time. China took of for real ~1980, and that was Nixon´s and Cater´s fault.The WTO Membership didn´t even bump Chinas GDP growth, it just kept steadily going from where it was before WTO ascension.
Most favored nation state does not mean "free trade" or anything like that, and both parties still have to agree, in fact all WTO members have to agree, that a schedule actually gives equal conditions.

The EU approach to China is quite a bit different. Instead of increasing tariffs on China, and hence making stuff more expansive for EU citizens and companies with that new tax, it makes free trade agreements with anyone but China, making stuff cheaper here, but making China less competitive at the same time. Why is Vietnam, pseudo-communist dictatorship but too small to threaten anyone and itself scared enough of China to have active military cooperation even with the USA these days, booming? Because of the EU-Vietnam FTA. That does hurt China a lot

That's the problem with our country we think we can open the doors to a communist country by showing them capitalism..Well they certainly took the the capitalism part and ran with it but kept the hammer on it's citizens. It may be too late at this point but the world needs to shut them out we waited too long.


nah, we can still slam the door shut.

Biden is as much in China's pocket as anybody is. His son Hunter got rich off China as he did with his Russia. Too many big businesses and politicians have too much to lose by getting rough with China It is at the point of no control I am afraid.


You do know that does include the whole Trump family? Where does Trump make his stuff? Lots from China: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fac ... edirect=on

Even with his the trade war on, he still imports from China, as if that is the only place that makes tables and cabinets: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-o ... ?r=DE&IR=T

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:07 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
a) Lots of companies move manufacturing capacity out of China, and that started in earnest long before Corona. I remember a presentation in Taipei in 2010, where a taiwanese company explained why they won´t have a factory on the mainland: the mainland was already close to cost parity, and would be noncompetitive with other options before the decade is out. They where right on the money. The machine builders my company sells to are making money hands over fist equipping and commissioning new factories all over Asia, anywhere but China.


Adding on to this - China had clearly moved from low-end manufacturing (i.e. textile) or even middle-of-the-road manufacturing (think of your typical "Made in China junk" everyday household items) to higher-end such as tech product/automotive or even airplane (think Airbus Tianjin) assembly. They are now trying to move towards horizontal/vertical integration - which is where things like IP theft had been coming in anyway. Which is where...

tommy1808 wrote:
c) China is still crucially dependent on imports, especially on those that require the USA to "ok" them. Think of any Chinese tech company with a hardware business. They could go out of business essentially over night, if Trump just decided to not just stop companies to ship to Huawei, but to all of their tech companies.


...comes in.

When it comes to tech product, China simply doesn't have the know-how nor the capacity to produce everything on their own. ICs? Totally control by USA. Software? Totally control by USA (things as simple as Windows/Android to the software that runs those machine).

Other sectors like automotive and airplane are the same - China can assemble them, but they won't be able to totally make a car/plane from scratch for probably another decade. Again, this is where IP theft is coming in hard - China wants to do it now, and for a good reason, as it removes a major hurdle of 100% manufacturing independence.

tommy1808 wrote:
Also: Since he also put the same tariffs on most of the alternative capacity, demand barely shifted. And hit Japan, the EU and Taiwan harder than China. Those would be your natural allies against them, yet he chose to hurt them instead of forming a coalition, that all of them would per perfectly willing to join.


Additionally, the policy is also extremely inconsistent. You will need more than a few tariffs that are imposed for maybe a year to fully move manufacturing away from China. Why should a company invest elsewhere (i.e. Vietnam or India), not knowing whether the cost saving of shifting that capacity elsewhere (due to lack of tariffs) will even be there when the factory is build?

tommy1808 wrote:
Well, not quite. With the WTO membership most favored nation status comes automatically, and the cage was long open at the time. China took of for real ~1980, and that was Nixon´s and Cater´s fault.The WTO Membership didn´t even bump Chinas GDP growth, it just kept steadily going from where it was before WTO ascension.
Most favored nation state does not mean "free trade" or anything like that, and both parties still have to agree, in fact all WTO members have to agree, that a schedule actually gives equal conditions.


Clinton is not without faults, though. US should have stop their dream of turning China and their authoritarianism around in 1989 when CCP bloody murdered those students in Tiananmen Square. Alas, US did not and Clinton is definitely the one behind that.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:27 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Additionally, the policy is also extremely inconsistent. You will need more than a few tariffs that are imposed for maybe a year to fully move manufacturing away from China. Why should a company invest elsewhere (i.e. Vietnam or India), not knowing whether the cost saving of shifting that capacity elsewhere (due to lack of tariffs) will even be there when the factory is build?


yup, that is where the EU FTA comes in quite handy. They will not go away over night, if ever. And with an FTA, the WTO complaint road is close for good.

tommy1808 wrote:
Well, not quite. With the WTO membership most favored nation status comes automatically, and the cage was long open at the time. China took of for real ~1980, and that was Nixon´s and Cater´s fault.The WTO Membership didn´t even bump Chinas GDP growth, it just kept steadily going from where it was before WTO ascension.
Most favored nation state does not mean "free trade" or anything like that, and both parties still have to agree, in fact all WTO members have to agree, that a schedule actually gives equal conditions.


Clinton is not without faults, though. US should have stop their dream of turning China and their authoritarianism around in 1989 when CCP bloody murdered those students in Tiananmen Square. Alas, US did not and Clinton is definitely the one behind that.


Well, in that time frame it would be Bush senior, but you are of course correct. I don´t think there was really an alternative to their WTO membership, but the slapping should have started the moment they moved a fraction of the intended course.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Hong Kong crackdown begins!

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Well, in that time frame it would be Bush senior, but you are of course correct. I don´t think there was really an alternative to their WTO membership, but the slapping should have started the moment they moved a fraction of the intended course.


IIRC Bush Sr did imposed some trade restriction to China in the immediate aftermath, which was gradually eased under Clinton.

Ultimately, though, Deng follow by Jiang were a lot more moderate than Xi - i.e. they were mostly focusing on economic development of China. China was definitely fooling everybody, not just US, for years anyway.

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