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OA260
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Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:22 pm

Seems the two nations have signed a peace deal to normalise relations and to introduce air links to promote tourism and co operation.


Israel and UAE strike historic deal to normalise relations

www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-middle-east-53770859
 
jmc1975
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:23 pm

It’ll be interesting to see how quickly EK or EY will add flights to TLV
.......
 
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OA260
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:25 pm

In a press conference on now from Washington they mention direct flights between TLV and AUH/DXB. Certainly a historic moment.
 
toxtethogrady
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Emirates to Tel Aviv?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:28 pm

Trump announcement of a peace deal between Israel and UAE seems to suggest one or more airlines want access between Tel Aviv and Dubai/Abu Dhabi. How soon, do you suppose?
 
SFOThinker
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:29 pm

A huge achievement. I expect there will be a quick start to flights, albeit with low frequency and smaller aircraft until the market recovers. But the long term potential is great for Muslim tourism to Israel, and for Israeli access to the networks beyond the Gulf. There may also be rapid development of business ties between Israel and the UAE
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:32 pm

Excellent news. We need more positive news these days.
 
Blerg
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:44 pm

Million Dollar question, will Saudi Arabia give them overfly rights like they did for AI. I don't see EY launching flights but Air Arabia for sure, maybe even Wizz Air.

As for EK, before corona they could have easily filled triple daily flights (A380, A380, B77W). Lots of demand to places like India, Australia, Thailand... all markets where EK is strong.

Can TLV handle an A380?
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:53 pm

I presume this is part of the UAE's "Year of Tolerance" campaign?
 
LTCM
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:54 pm

Blerg wrote:
Million Dollar question, will Saudi Arabia give them overfly rights like they did for AI. I don't see EY launching flights but Air Arabia for sure, maybe even Wizz Air.

As for EK, before corona they could have easily filled triple daily flights (A380, A380, B77W). Lots of demand to places like India, Australia, Thailand... all markets where EK is strong.

Can TLV handle an A380?

Saudi Arabia within two years will be recognizing Israel as well. They already do in private settings, only thing missing is public announcement.
 
Galwayman
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:57 pm

Bye bye El Al , the Israelis are going to love EK and it’s fantastic network
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:59 pm

El Al will struggle to Mumbai, Bangkok, Hong Kong and Beijing. There's nothing EK or EY can do between Israel and Europe/Americas though.
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
Blerg
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:00 pm

In the join statement released by the White House, it clearly states that the two sides will meet to sign bilateral agreements among which are those related to tourism and air travel. So I guess flights will happen sooner rather than later. Let's see what kind of bilateral they will sign and if there are going to be some restrictions put in place.
 
Blerg
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:01 pm

Galwayman wrote:
Bye bye El Al , the Israelis are going to love EK and it’s fantastic network


It's not just LY that will pay the price now, there is also TK which is currently the busiest foreign airline in Israel.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:04 pm

How big is the market between Israel and the UAE? Are there many passengers travelling between the two countries (via another country) every day?

Though I guess DXB/AUH could be used as connection points into TLV for flights west of them?
 
Breathe
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:25 pm

Wow! First Liverpool win the league for the first time in 30 years, Leeds United get promoted back to the Premier League and now this! :D

On a serious point, this is incredible news if this all gets signed and delivered. Certainly from a non-aviation point of view, hopefully this can help with political stabilisation within the region. I wonder if this will lead to a snowball effect with other countries in the region following the UAE. Probably a discussion for one of the political threads.

From an aviation point of view, this could potentially be a huge cash cow for EK and EY for Asia-Pacific and East African travellers from TLV. This will certainly be interesting to watch once the Covid-19 situation settles down.

2020 is definitely the year where the most unthinkable and unlikely events you can think of are happening!
 
Breathe
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:31 pm

Ishrion wrote:
How big is the market between Israel and the UAE? Are there many passengers travelling between the two countries (via another country) every day?

Though I guess DXB/AUH could be used as connection points into TLV for flights west of them?

Aren't most journeys flown via DXB and AUH (with EK and EY at least) connections anyway?

There's certainly a big market for India and SE Asia from TLV. You can probably throw places like CMB, MAL, MRU SEY into the mix too. Definitely a lot of potential for EK and EY to TLV.
 
SFOThinker
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:37 pm

Ishrion wrote:
How big is the market between Israel and the UAE? Are there many passengers travelling between the two countries (via another country) every day?

Whatever the current figure it will surely multiply, as the countries have complementary economies. The UAE is very tech-oriented and Israel is second only to the US for hi tech startups. But the most immediate aviation impact will be beyond connections to Asia, Australia/NZ, and Africa for Israeli travelers.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:51 pm

I don't see many people willing to backtrack from TLV to DXB to ride EK or EY westbound. Especially premium passengers. Eastbound is a different story.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
A330Inter
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:53 pm

Ishrion wrote:
How big is the market between Israel and the UAE? Are there many passengers travelling between the two countries (via another country) every day?

Though I guess DXB/AUH could be used as connection points into TLV for flights west of them?


There is a large Palestinian diaspora in the UAE who will benefit from any route launched between the two countries!
This should also incentivize El Al to stop flying to places like BKK, BOM where they are bleeding money!

It took these two countries to hate a common enemy (iran), more than they hate each other, to finally open the dialogue... Good for the region!
 
Blerg
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:03 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
I don't see many people willing to backtrack from TLV to DXB to ride EK or EY westbound. Especially premium passengers. Eastbound is a different story.


True but you have airlines like TK which have been carrying thousands of passengers from TLV to Asia. They stand to lose the most from all this especially since many destinations will be reached considerably faster via the UAE. Like I wrote in another post, it will all depend if they can get overflight rights from Saudi Arabia.
 
AshFlops
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:06 pm

Remember back in May/June when Etihad ran those two cargo flights from AUH to TLV? I always assumed that they were proving flights to TLV on the A330. One flight went north over Iraq/Turkey, and the other did a southern route over Saudi/Jordan. There will definitely be flights from TLV to AUH and DXB. The connections to India, Singapore, Manila, and Australia will fill multiple flights a day. Oman and Bahrain will follow shortly after this. Then Saudi. Qatar is too in bed with Iran to be a player here.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:07 pm

Blerg wrote:

Like I wrote in another post, it will all depend if they can get overflight rights from Saudi Arabia.


Perhaps they could work out an air corridor type arrangement for now, similar to what was used during the Cold War to West Berlin.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:10 pm

I'm not sure TK will lose *that* much. A good chunk of traffic via Istanbul was to Europe/CIS/N.America
EK or EY are much stronger at the southern half of Asia

Yes, there wil be less dependency on Israel-Turkey flights, but traffic flows of Israel-Asia will likely grow
Once Covid is over, there's room for plenty of flights from TLV to both Turkey and the UAE
 
Blerg
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:12 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Like I wrote in another post, it will all depend if they can get overflight rights from Saudi Arabia.


Perhaps they could work out an air corridor type arrangement for now, similar to what was used during the Cold War to West Berlin.


Or Saudi Arabia will just give them overflight rights in preparation of their own recognition of Israel.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Emirates to Tel Aviv?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:39 pm

toxtethogrady wrote:
Trump announcement of a peace deal between Israel and UAE seems to suggest one or more airlines want access between Tel Aviv and Dubai/Abu Dhabi. How soon, do you suppose?

As already noted, this requires overfly rights of Saudi.

I never thought I would see this. I fully realize that a retreat is more likely than an advancement, but perhaps a start.

If this starts something, it will hugely boost tourism to and from Israel.

I do wonder if this was to reduce the opportunity for TK? IMHO, mow that the new IST has 3 runways, TK can out connect EK. EK has never had that type of competition before. Conceeding a large and fairly wealthy market isn't good long term.

EK or EY to numerous destinations opens up travel to Asia, Australia, and New Zealand. This will be interesting. I would expect Air Arabia to add service too.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:42 pm

Blerg wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Bye bye El Al , the Israelis are going to love EK and it’s fantastic network


It's not just LY that will pay the price now, there is also TK which is currently the busiest foreign airline in Israel.


Not sure that TK will hurt as much. They still carry quite a bit of traffic from North America to Israel, and presumably some from Israel to Europe. EK will not compete for those passengers. The India and Southeast Asia routes is where they will compete.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:44 pm

Blerg wrote:

Or Saudi Arabia will just give them overflight rights in preparation of their own recognition of Israel.


I find it very difficult to believe that the UAE did not coordinate this move with the Saudis to some degree, especially since Abu Dhabi controls the UAE's foreign policy.
 
SFOThinker
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:49 pm

Blerg wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Like I wrote in another post, it will all depend if they can get overflight rights from Saudi Arabia.


Perhaps they could work out an air corridor type arrangement for now, similar to what was used during the Cold War to West Berlin.


Or Saudi Arabia will just give them overflight rights in preparation of their own recognition of Israel.



The Kingdom already grants overflight rights to Air India into Israel. Denying the same treatment to an Arab neighbor with which it has good relations would be a signal of disapproval. I have seen nothing to indicate Saudi Arabia disapproves of the agreement, and much that speculates it is preparing a similar agreement now that the UAE has broken the ice.

I would be very surprised if overflights were not permitted.
 
deltatrav
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:50 pm

This is great and I having flown on Egyptair and TK between the two countries, this will be much easier. I think it'll be EK to start and probably effective immediately (once they sign the memo). That said, I do wonder/worry about security - will those devious undercurrents of society/the world now seek to attack EK in retribution? Not necessarily the TLV flights, but anywhere? Could we see problems arise in the UAE (attacks by the same types of people)? I truly hope not and wonder what implications on security this could bring, however great it is. To be clear, I'm not talking about wars or anything of the sort, but referring unaffiliated sickos.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:53 pm

I always felt that this day would come, especially after the exile of Qatar. I figured this would be a way for the UAE in particular to lead the way in a potential link between UAE/Israel. So glad to see this.
 
AEROFAN
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:54 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
I don't see many people willing to backtrack from TLV to DXB to ride EK or EY westbound. Especially premium passengers. Eastbound is a different story.


From this premium passenger: My trips from NYC to Israel and back have been done on TK.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
bravotango75
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:59 pm

LTCM wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Million Dollar question, will Saudi Arabia give them overfly rights like they did for AI. I don't see EY launching flights but Air Arabia for sure, maybe even Wizz Air.

As for EK, before corona they could have easily filled triple daily flights (A380, A380, B77W). Lots of demand to places like India, Australia, Thailand... all markets where EK is strong.

Can TLV handle an A380?

Saudi Arabia within two years will be recognizing Israel as well. They already do in private settings, only thing missing is public announcement.

Agreed, Saudi and Israel have been on speaking terms for years now, just not “officially”.
 
sibibom
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:02 pm

Huge news for Indians traveling to Israel, especially religious tourists from southern India, thats 100s if not 1000s daily once things return back to normal.
 
Galwayman
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:14 pm

Blerg wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Bye bye El Al , the Israelis are going to love EK and it’s fantastic network


It's not just LY that will pay the price now, there is also TK which is currently the busiest foreign airline in Israel.

The

Yes and possibly Royal Jordanian will suffer too

Be interesting to see if highly uncompetitive Air India lasts long at TLV

TK will still have all the USA traffic but probably lose a lot of traffic to Asia
 
x1234
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:30 pm

TK is king as they fly to more countries than any other carrier (including a huge chunk of Russia & Central Asia that are too small for wide-bodies). For the major cities in Oceania/Asia EK will gain business.
 
directorguy
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:32 pm

Would be interesting if a visa waiver agreement is signed, or at the very least if the UAE will begin issuing tourist visas to Israeli citizens. The UAE has been signing a lot of visa waiver agreements over the past 5 years.
I wonder if LY will begin it's own service, perhaps a 3x weekly 737 between TLV and AUH?
 
khowaga
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:51 pm

directorguy wrote:
Would be interesting if a visa waiver agreement is signed, or at the very least if the UAE will begin issuing tourist visas to Israeli citizens. The UAE has been signing a lot of visa waiver agreements over the past 5 years.
I wonder if LY will begin it's own service, perhaps a 3x weekly 737 between TLV and AUH?

LY getting KSA overflight would be a huge step, it’s more likely that they’ll only grant it to EK or EY (similar to how AI got permission to overfly KSA on BOM-TLV, but LY still has to avoid Saudi airspace on its own flights to BOM and SE Asia).

Until KSA normalizes its own relations, that is.
 
khowaga
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:58 pm

Galwayman wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Bye bye El Al , the Israelis are going to love EK and it’s fantastic network


It's not just LY that will pay the price now, there is also TK which is currently the busiest foreign airline in Israel.

The

Yes and possibly Royal Jordanian will suffer too

Be interesting to see if highly uncompetitive Air India lasts long at TLV

TK will still have all the USA traffic but probably lose a lot of traffic to Asia

RJ’s flight to TLV is suspended due to COVID currently; even beforehand it was only a daily E190. Israeli passengers who travel by land to AMM to catch a plane have been able to fly EY, EK, and QR to destinations beyond the Gulf for years.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:27 pm

SFOThinker wrote:

Blerg wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

Perhaps they could work out an air corridor type arrangement for now, similar to what was used during the Cold War to West Berlin.


Or Saudi Arabia will just give them overflight rights in preparation of their own recognition of Israel.



The Kingdom already grants overflight rights to Air India into Israel. Denying the same treatment to an Arab neighbor with which it has good relations would be a signal of disapproval. I have seen nothing to indicate Saudi Arabia disapproves of the agreement, and much that speculates it is preparing a similar agreement now that the UAE has broken the ice.

I would be very surprised if overflights were not permitted.


UAE is not the issue so much as EL AL being allowed overflights from the KSA for a reciprocal service Israel-UAE service.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
asuflyer
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:39 pm

khowaga wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Blerg wrote:

It's not just LY that will pay the price now, there is also TK which is currently the busiest foreign airline in Israel.

The

Yes and possibly Royal Jordanian will suffer too

Be interesting to see if highly uncompetitive Air India lasts long at TLV

TK will still have all the USA traffic but probably lose a lot of traffic to Asia

RJ’s flight to TLV is suspended due to COVID currently; even beforehand it was only a daily E190. Israeli passengers who travel by land to AMM to catch a plane have been able to fly EY, EK, and QR to destinations beyond the Gulf for years.


RJ's TLV-AMM was scheduled as a E190 but was often upgauged to an A320/A321 and occasional 787.

There are rumors that Bahrain and Oman will follow the UAE position. EY has previously expressed interest in flying to TLV and has made two charter flights to TLV, I don't believe EK, WY or GF have.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:14 pm

I see EY as more likely to launch a service to TLV...using A320/A321 aircraft. Remember that not too long ago, an EY B789 flew into TLV for cargo. I don't see LY as launching the service since it can't overfly Saudi Arabia...although AI does on DEL-TLV (on a B788).
 
sixfootscream
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:55 pm

I seen baggage bound for TLV on TK,RJ and even ET. There is a demand for travel and I can see EK flying to TLV as soon as possible. Same as EY. Question is will LY fly to DXB or AUH? I could see them trying.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:00 pm

Blerg wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Bye bye El Al , the Israelis are going to love EK and it’s fantastic network


It's not just LY that will pay the price now, there is also TK which is currently the busiest foreign airline in Israel.


That's interesting. TLV is almost a domestic flight for TK, with a shorter flight time from Istanbul than some Turkish cities. I wonder if all of this is related to the rivalry between UAE and Turkey - it might suit them to take away some of their traffic and influence.

As for tourism, I think there would be a lot of outbound traffic from Israel to Asia which will be good for the UAE airlines. For Israel, it's good because it improves their connectivity to the world. I don't think many of the inbound pax will actually be from the UAE though.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:08 pm

sixfootscream wrote:
I seen baggage bound for TLV on TK,RJ and even ET. There is a demand for travel and I can see EK flying to TLV as soon as possible. Same as EY. Question is will LY fly to DXB or AUH? I could see them trying.


I say no as the point of sale for LY on that route would be on the Israeli end, and the demand is just not there for O&D to the UAE. By contrast, EY can sell connections through AUH (on either EY or G9 metal) without requiring actually entering the UAE...whereby EY can be competitive against both TK and LY (as it is, many people from Israel would travel to IST for onward connections eastbound; here, they would travel to AUH instead). I would not be surprised to see AUH-TLV eventually up-graded to a B789. (Prior to COVID-19, TLV-IST had some wide-body frequencies, including the B77W on that route.)

Now, as for connections via DXB...this would require that both FZ and EK be fully integrated at only DXB, as FZ would be more suitable for TLV than EK...and again, one could transit via DXB, but an Israeli probably can't make a DXB-DWC connection.

(All of this is once after COVID-19 recovery begins in earnest.)
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:31 pm

The UAE allows entry to Israelis, so a DXB-DWC transfer should be possible for them. I imagine there will be plenty of Israelis who would like to see Dubai for a couple of days on the way to somewhere else...
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:13 am

Galwayman wrote:
Bye bye El Al , the Israelis are going to love EK and it’s fantastic network


In a post-COVID-19 world, I would actually expect FZ metal to operate DXB-TLV, on the B738, with DXB-AUH on an A320/A321/A21N mix. I see no business case for LY as they cannot sell what DXB and AUH are primarily for---connections. However, this does do damage to TK as they no longer have a monopoly on many destinations...prior to COVID-19, TK was regularly carrying over 1M passengers a year just on TLV, typically A320/A321/A21N/B738/B739/A333/B77W mix, as TK also moved a lot of cargo.
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:30 am

This is unquestionably a pretty exciting development for all parties.

I'm curious to see if this may have some impact on some EK/EY routings to Southern Europe / N. Africa. I know there are limited airways in the region, but I imagine that this may pose a very favourable routing (from a safety perspective) to routing over certain areas of Iraq or the Sinai Peninsula.
 
AshFlops
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:37 am

Don't forget about cargo. I believe that Cathay Pacific and Sichuan are still flying to TLV, just for the cargo. Once Covid dies down, the top half of the plane will be full as well. The DXB-TLV route will probably start as FlyDubai, but once it is shown that those smaller planes are easily filled, EK will fly a 777 over there, just for connections. The EK and EY flights will be bringing in a ton of tourists into Israel, especially from AUS/NZ and the Philippines.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:53 am

Emirates is the big winner. Will provide alot of feed for their Network.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:47 am

Five years ago who would have thought there would be UAE-Israel flights but no UAE-Qatar flights? Exciting but strange times we live in.

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