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AntonioMartin
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:00 am

Breathe wrote:
Wow! First Liverpool win the league for the first time in 30 years, Leeds United get promoted back to the Premier League and now this! :D


2020 is definitely the year where the most unthinkable and unlikely events you can think of are happening!

Add to that the Atizona Coyotes actually winning a playoff series in the NHL!

For sure, 2020 is that year!
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:43 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Bye bye El Al , the Israelis are going to love EK and it’s fantastic network


It's not just LY that will pay the price now, there is also TK which is currently the busiest foreign airline in Israel.


Not sure that TK will hurt as much. They still carry quite a bit of traffic from North America to Israel, and presumably some from Israel to Europe. EK will not compete for those passengers. The India and Southeast Asia routes is where they will compete.


What about Israel to Australia and New Zealand?
 
Blerg
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:33 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
Blerg wrote:

It's not just LY that will pay the price now, there is also TK which is currently the busiest foreign airline in Israel.


Not sure that TK will hurt as much. They still carry quite a bit of traffic from North America to Israel, and presumably some from Israel to Europe. EK will not compete for those passengers. The India and Southeast Asia routes is where they will compete.


What about Israel to Australia and New Zealand?


Some months ago, maybe it was even last year, there was a thread on here how LY was looking into launching Australia flights from TLV. Obviously this indicates that there is more than enough demand, especially premium one. Real question is how did most of these guys travel until now? I suppose a vast majority of passengers made two stops like TLV-IST-SIN-Australia.

On a separate note, let's hope they end up signing an open skies agreement and that there are no restrictions on operations. That said, since this is a deal pushed by Trump who is very business friendly, I doubt there will be such obstacles. Dubai is not just a transfer point, it's also a final destination for many. I could see Wizz Air Abu Dhabi also launch flights in order to cater for this group. With their usually low fares they could stimulate demand quite a bit.
 
TC957
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:51 am

Perhaps Qatar will be next to acknowledge Israel and sign a peace pack. Qatar needs all the friends it can get in the Middle East right now.
 
Blerg
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:52 am

Washington Post mentioned Oman, Bahrain and Morocco as the likely next states to do so.
 
jmmadrid
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:24 am

How would a jewish israeli citizen feel when flying on a muslim airline? I think they can relax a bit about the meals, they will certainly NOT be served pork for lunch.
I highlight the jewish israeli combination, because it is the most controversial. Most american /european jewish people would not have any problem, and neither would muslim israelis or non-religious israelis.

Same question goes for visiting muslim countries. Are politically and religiously conscious israelis willing to visit them? They feel reasonably safe in western countries and even protected in their own country, but what about muslim countries?

I've travelled extensively throughout Egypt and Jordan and it is not common to see israelis, at least not in the volumes that you would expect considering these two countries have so much to offer, are just a few hours drive away and are significantly cheaper than Israel.

Also, israeli immigration officers will have to calm down and take medication for their paranoia, and stop considering travel to UAE as high risk. Last time I visited Israel I came from Dubai (DXB-AMM) and I caused a commotion. Questions questions and more questions and then some, same questions over and over again, they held me for 6 hours before letting me go. And I am a non-religious Spanish citizen, a country that has no recent or on-going conflicts with either country, and can travel visa free to both.
 
sixfootscream
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:31 am

jmmadrid wrote:
How would a jewish israeli citizen feel when flying on a muslim airline? I think they can relax a bit about the meals, they will certainly NOT be served pork for lunch.
I highlight the jewish israeli combination, because it is the most controversial. Most american /european jewish people would not have any problem, and neither would muslim israelis or non-religious israelis.

Same question goes for visiting muslim countries. Are politically and religiously conscious israelis willing to visit them? They feel reasonably safe in western countries and even protected in their own country, but what about muslim countries?

I've travelled extensively throughout Egypt and Jordan and it is not common to see israelis, at least not in the volumes that you would expect considering these two countries have so much to offer, are just a few hours drive away and are significantly cheaper than Israel.

Also, israeli immigration officers will have to calm down and take medication for their paranoia, and stop considering travel to UAE as high risk. Last time I visited Israel I came from Dubai (DXB-AMM) and I caused a commotion. Questions questions and more questions and then some, same questions over and over again, they held me for 6 hours before letting me go. And I am a non-religious Spanish citizen, a country that has no recent or on-going conflicts with either country, and can travel visa free to both.


Most Middle Eastern airlines offer Kosher meals. Since I am not Jewish or an Israeli can't comment on the rest. Regarding immigration any state as the right to question anyone who enters and from which country. Remember Israel has been facing threats and abuse from the Arabs since its founding.
 
Flyingsottsman
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:32 am

deltatrav wrote:
This is great and I having flown on Egyptair and TK between the two countries, this will be much easier. I think it'll be EK to start and probably effective immediately (once they sign the memo). That said, I do wonder/worry about security - will those devious undercurrents of society/the world now seek to attack EK in retribution? Not necessarily the TLV flights, but anywhere? Could we see problems arise in the UAE (attacks by the same types of people)? I truly hope not and wonder what implications on security this could bring, however great it is. To be clear, I'm not talking about wars or anything of the sort, but referring unaffiliated sickos.


I understand what you are saying, I recon Iran's nose will be out of joint , and I am wondering if they will support any group that will try and sabotage this Historic moment. I don't think TK will be hurt buy this, they have a very large network and are starting to become a global airline I guess they will when they touch Australia, I don't think many people mind having a stop over in Istanbul, would be a fascinating city to see.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:45 am

AshFlops wrote:
Don't forget about cargo. I believe that Cathay Pacific and Sichuan are still flying to TLV, just for the cargo. Once Covid dies down, the top half of the plane will be full as well. The DXB-TLV route will probably start as FlyDubai, but once it is shown that those smaller planes are easily filled, EK will fly a 777 over there, just for connections. The EK and EY flights will be bringing in a ton of tourists into Israel, especially from AUS/NZ and the Philippines.


FlyDubai? DXB-TLV has Emirates all over it.

FlyDubai is used for "secondary/tertiary" destinations in Eastern Europe or MEA. The likes of Bratislava or Gassim, Saudi Arabia. Or just to compliment EK on those busy regional markets where there is a lot of VFR (JED, BEY, AMM, etc.)

TLV is a major market so it will likely start with a daily B777 like every other new major market. And the timing is perfect with EK having lost so much demand.
 
Blerg
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:48 am

SCQ83 wrote:
AshFlops wrote:
Don't forget about cargo. I believe that Cathay Pacific and Sichuan are still flying to TLV, just for the cargo. Once Covid dies down, the top half of the plane will be full as well. The DXB-TLV route will probably start as FlyDubai, but once it is shown that those smaller planes are easily filled, EK will fly a 777 over there, just for connections. The EK and EY flights will be bringing in a ton of tourists into Israel, especially from AUS/NZ and the Philippines.


FlyDubai? DXB-TLV has Emirates all over it.

FlyDubai is used for "secondary/tertiary" destinations in Eastern Europe or MEA. The likes of Bratislava or Gassim, Saudi Arabia. Or just to compliment EK on those busy regional markets where there is a lot of VFR (JED, BEY, AMM, etc.)

TLV is a major market so it will likely start with a daily B777 like every other new major market. And the timing is perfect with EK having lost so much demand.


Yes but what happens in Wizz Air enters the market and takes away a large chunk of O&D traffic? What will EK do then? That's when FZ makes sense as it's better to focus O&D on Dubai than to have them fly to AUH on an LCC.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:07 am

I suspect the decision by Saudi Arabia to launch the oil price war against Russia had a lot to do with this. I suspect the UAE airlines would have been looking at making flights to TLV as it would just make business sense. The decision to hurt everyone, well almost everyone in the area's pocket by being idiots would have meant Riyadh lost the ability to argue against this to happen.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:43 am

enzo011 wrote:
I suspect the decision by Saudi Arabia to launch the oil price war against Russia had a lot to do with this. I suspect the UAE airlines would have been looking at making flights to TLV as it would just make business sense. The decision to hurt everyone, well almost everyone in the area's pocket by being idiots would have meant Riyadh lost the ability to argue against this to happen.


Riyadh is an ally of Abu Dhabi and Washington. So Saudi is not out of the equation.

I am sure in a few years from now, we will have the same thread with "Israel and Saudi Arabia", after this also happens with Bahrein or Oman. Of course it is much more controversial at this time for Saudi to get a "peace agreement" with Israel (being Saudi the home of the holy mosque). UAE is the natural first step as they are the most "progressive" and internationally-minded country in the GCC. One step at a time.
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:52 am

SCQ83 wrote:
FlyDubai? DXB-TLV has Emirates all over it.

100% agree. At least one daily 777, maybe even multiple. Probably a couple EY 787s as well. Obviously this is pre-COVID thinking, so who knows. It might just be an FZ 738 and an EY A320.
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raylee67
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:14 am

This actually opens up possibilities beyond UAE. As UAE is a major Gulf country, I would have to believe that UAE was not doing this in complete secrecy. Other Gulf countries (except Qatar) would have been briefed before the public announcement. At least they would have agreed to not condemn this move by UAE.

If there are not a lot of negative public response to this move by UAE, we may see other smaller Gulf countries, such as Kuwait and Oman, moving to the same direction. We may even see more moderate Muslim countries such as Malaysia moving there.

This may open up flights between TLV and KWI, etc., and KU may finally allow Israelis to board. It cancelled LHR-JFK because it was ordered to allow Israeli on board, which it refused to do.
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345tas
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:27 am

Blerg wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:

Not sure that TK will hurt as much. They still carry quite a bit of traffic from North America to Israel, and presumably some from Israel to Europe. EK will not compete for those passengers. The India and Southeast Asia routes is where they will compete.


What about Israel to Australia and New Zealand?


Some months ago, maybe it was even last year, there was a thread on here how LY was looking into launching Australia flights from TLV. Obviously this indicates that there is more than enough demand, especially premium one. Real question is how did most of these guys travel until now? I suppose a vast majority of passengers made two stops like TLV-IST-SIN-Australia.


Over the last few years Cathay Pacific has become very popular on TLV-AUS/NZ, and it was one of their first A35K routes. I think they will be sad to see this agreement, if indeed EK and/or EY begin service. Anecdotally, it has also been quite common for people to fly Cyprus-Doha-Australia/NZ, usually on Arkia and then QR.

I don't think anyone should expect much O&D on this route, given Israel has had a peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan for years, and tourism, at least by Jewish Israelis, is almost zero. Similarly, Israeli tourism to Turkey is extremely susceptible to the vagaries of that political relationship. However, the UAE does have a huge services economy and there is already indirect business travel to/from TLV.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:35 am

raylee67 wrote:
This actually opens up possibilities beyond UAE. As UAE is a major Gulf country, I would have to believe that UAE was not doing this in complete secrecy. Other Gulf countries (except Qatar) would have been briefed before the public announcement. At least they would have agreed to not condemn this move by UAE.

If there are not a lot of negative public response to this move by UAE, we may see other smaller Gulf countries, such as Kuwait and Oman, moving to the same direction. We may even see more moderate Muslim countries such as Malaysia moving there.

This may open up flights between TLV and KWI, etc., and KU may finally allow Israelis to board. It cancelled LHR-JFK because it was ordered to allow Israeli on board, which it refused to do.


KWI and Kuwait Airways are quite irrelevant.

The next big step will be KSA and Saudia. If KSA and Israel in a few years also establish relations, I could see Saudia flying JED/RUH-TLV.

JED-TLV will be an interesting flight, because it will be also Makkah - Al-Aqsa (Jerusalem). So kind of a holy flight; it could have a lot of O&D from Israeli Muslims connecting to the Saudi holy sites (I think a lot of them now fly in organised groups via AMM with an special pass) as well as Saudis and other Muslims connecting in JED/RUH visiting Al-Aqsa.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:40 am

345tas wrote:
I don't think anyone should expect much O&D on this route, given Israel has had a peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan for years, and tourism, at least by Jewish Israelis, is almost zero. Similarly, Israeli tourism to Turkey is extremely susceptible to the vagaries of that political relationship. However, the UAE does have a huge services economy and there is already indirect business travel to/from TLV.


I disagree. Jordan, Egypt and Turkey are poor and unstable countries. Dubai and Abu Dhabi are another story; those are very globalised, international-oriented cities.

In short (religion apart), Dubai or Abu Dhabi are today way more similar to Tel Aviv (in lifestyle, average income, etc.) than Dubai or Abu Dhabi are to Cairo, Amman or even Istanbul.

I could see Israeli tourists visiting the UAE (shopping, cheaper beach that at home, exotism, etc) as well as Emiratis visiting Israel specially for the holy muslim sites. Or other expats in the UAE (like Filipinos) visiting the Christian sites in Israel.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:24 am

Perhaps one should not get too excited about the number of Muslims visiting Israel
Jordan is Israel's neighbour - and the distance by road from Amman to Tel Aviv is not far - yet the number of Jordanians visiting Israel is modest.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:35 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Perhaps one should not get too excited about the number of Muslims visiting Israel
Jordan is Israel's neighbour - and the distance by road from Amman to Tel Aviv is not far - yet the number of Jordanians visiting Israel is modest.


Jordan is a poor country. The number of Jordanians (or Egyptians; or Turkish to a certain extent) that can think about travelling abroad (other than pilgrimage to Makkah once in their lifetime or travelling to work abroad to a GCC country) is quite small. The UAE is a developed economy where most locals (and a lots of expats there) can afford leisure holidays abroad.

Also the UAE today has one of the most powerful passports in the world, comparable to many European countries. Just compare it to the Egyptian or Jordan passport which is worse than Chad or India. I assume UAE and Israel will implement a relatively friendly visa policy (visa free?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henley_Passport_Index

Comparing the UAE to Jordan is comparing apples to oranges... or comparing Croatia to the Central African Republic.
 
Toinou
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:38 am

SCQ83 wrote:
345tas wrote:
I don't think anyone should expect much O&D on this route, given Israel has had a peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan for years, and tourism, at least by Jewish Israelis, is almost zero. Similarly, Israeli tourism to Turkey is extremely susceptible to the vagaries of that political relationship. However, the UAE does have a huge services economy and there is already indirect business travel to/from TLV.


I disagree. Jordan, Egypt and Turkey are poor and unstable countries. Dubai and Abu Dhabi are another story; those are very globalised, international-oriented cities.

In short (religion apart), Dubai or Abu Dhabi are today way more similar to Tel Aviv (in lifestyle, average income, etc.) than Dubai or Abu Dhabi are to Cairo, Amman or even Istanbul.

I could see Israeli tourists visiting the UAE (shopping, cheaper beach that at home, exotism, etc) as well as Emiratis visiting Israel specially for the holy muslim sites. Or other expats in the UAE (like Filipinos) visiting the Christian sites in Israel.


I'm OK to say that Jordan or Egypt cannot compare to UAE but Turkey is somewhere in-between. Turkish economy is much higher (even if it doesn't seem to go in the right direction) that Egyptian of Jordanian ones.

Anyway, the comment was about the O&D potential. Once again, you cannot compare so easily. The links between Israel, Jordan and Egypt, whether it is for tourism or business or tiny, for historical reasons. In the case of Turkey, both kind of traffic exists, but as said, depend much of political relations.
The potential link with UAE is essentially on the business side. They might be some UAE expats tourism to Israel but I don't see much appeal to Israelis: beaches may be cheaper but many Israelis can go to the beach without the need for a stay as the country is really small, the UAE exoticism is available closer to Israel and it doesn't seem to appeal much, shopping may be a driver, I have no idea how much Israelis like to shop.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:51 am

enzo011 wrote:
I suspect the decision by Saudi Arabia to launch the oil price war against Russia had a lot to do with this. I suspect the UAE airlines would have been looking at making flights to TLV as it would just make business sense. The decision to hurt everyone, well almost everyone in the area's pocket by being idiots would have meant Riyadh lost the ability to argue against this to happen.


You are bringing things into it that I didn't know.

I do believe that long-term, the oil-rich areas are thinking about what their future looks like. If they want to be a business center (speaking of UAE), they probably need to learn to work with Israelis on business. UAE is undergoing a maturation process (and so is Israel... hopefully). Business is better than war.
 
jmmadrid
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:29 am

SCQ83 wrote:
345tas wrote:
I don't think anyone should expect much O&D on this route, given Israel has had a peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan for years, and tourism, at least by Jewish Israelis, is almost zero. Similarly, Israeli tourism to Turkey is extremely susceptible to the vagaries of that political relationship. However, the UAE does have a huge services economy and there is already indirect business travel to/from TLV.


I disagree. Jordan, Egypt and Turkey are poor and unstable countries. Dubai and Abu Dhabi are another story; those are very globalised, international-oriented cities.

In short (religion apart), Dubai or Abu Dhabi are today way more similar to Tel Aviv (in lifestyle, average income, etc.) than Dubai or Abu Dhabi are to Cairo, Amman or even Istanbul.

I could see Israeli tourists visiting the UAE (shopping, cheaper beach that at home, exotism, etc) as well as Emiratis visiting Israel specially for the holy muslim sites. Or other expats in the UAE (like Filipinos) visiting the Christian sites in Israel.


Jordan unstable? In what aspect? It's an absolute monarchy that not even the arab spring was able to shake. Also, I wouldn't describe Jordan as "poor". Amman and Aqaba are exotic places (not beautiful though). I just think israelis are not interested.

On the other hand, I have visited AbuDhabi and Dubai many times, mostly on business, and the little time I had left for tourism did not leave me wishing for more. They are both boring places, where rich tourists who love posh hotels, spas and massive shopping centres might enjoy for a few days (in winter!) but that's it. Israeli tourists' interest in those places remains to be seen. And I cannot see emirati tourists visiting Israel. So I'm not a big believer on TLV-DXB or TLV-AUH O&D. However, business traffic and connections, yes.

Enter Turkey, particularly Istanbul, and it's an entirely different thing. Istanbul is one of the most fascinating places on Earth, and there is an endless list of fantastic places to visit in Turkey. In addition, it's way cheaper than the UAE, and islam is not as almighty as it is in the UAE. Turkey and Israel do not hate each other, and Turkey is home to a large jewish community. Turkish people are much more open minded than emiratis, and at least in Istanbul, religion does not represent a problem or pose a threat to non-muslims. Apart from the posh things, I cannot see what the UAE have to offer israelis that Turkey hasn´t.
 
sixfootscream
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:41 am

Please note that Turkey is not an Arab country!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:30 pm

Is El Al still in business? What happened to all that world-class security theater?
All posts are just opinions.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:59 pm

Blerg wrote:

Some months ago, maybe it was even last year, there was a thread on here how LY was looking into launching Australia flights from TLV. Obviously this indicates that there is more than enough demand, especially premium one. Real question is how did most of these guys travel until now? I suppose a vast majority of passengers made two stops like TLV-IST-SIN-Australia.


Cathay does very well on TLV-HKG-SYD/MEL. There aren't many one-stop options and CX are the most well-timed for convenient connections in both directions. Obviously I'm referring to pre-Covid schedules and demand!

Also worth noting that Qantas and ElAl codeshare with each other for Australia-Asia-TLV.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
airbazar
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:14 pm

First off, we've been here before so lets not get too excited until something actually happens :)

jmc1975 wrote:
It’ll be interesting to see how quickly EK or EY will add flights to TLV

Still a long detour just to travel 1,200nm. Despite the reported secret relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, I don't see SA changing its official stance any time soon. They have nothing to gain from it.
 
flybaby
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:37 pm

Very interesting news indeed.

The biggest losers seem to be TK and RJ as they will most likely lose some eastbound connecting traffic that will be picked up by EK (assuming Saudi overflight rights are granted which I believe is likely). Also, connections to Australia and New Zealand via Hong Kong on LY or CX.

It will be interesting to see if AI changes its routing on the TLV route. Currently it goes approximately over JNJ and RUH but a more direct route to Tel Aviv would be over DXB, then over international waters in the Persian Gulf, then just south of the Saudi-Iraqi border to TLV. If AI flew BOM-TLV this route would be appx. 4,300km (for comparison, LY’s circuitous route over the Red Sea is more than 5,800km).
 
flybaby
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:43 pm

airbazar wrote:
First off, we've been here before so lets not get too excited until something actually happens :)

jmc1975 wrote:
It’ll be interesting to see how quickly EK or EY will add flights to TLV

Still a long detour just to travel 1,200nm. Despite the reported secret relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, I don't see SA changing its official stance any time soon. They have nothing to gain from it.


If Saudi granted overflight rights to an Indian carrier to TLV then it is likely to grant those same rights to the UAE which is a much closer Arab ally of Saudi and a member of the GCC.

However, this will piss off LY even more though than AI having been granted exclusive rights to overfly Saudi given the connection possibilities at DXB.
 
flybaby
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:05 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
345tas wrote:
I don't think anyone should expect much O&D on this route, given Israel has had a peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan for years, and tourism, at least by Jewish Israelis, is almost zero. Similarly, Israeli tourism to Turkey is extremely susceptible to the vagaries of that political relationship. However, the UAE does have a huge services economy and there is already indirect business travel to/from TLV.


I disagree. Jordan, Egypt and Turkey are poor and unstable countries. Dubai and Abu Dhabi are another story; those are very globalised, international-oriented cities.

In short (religion apart), Dubai or Abu Dhabi are today way more similar to Tel Aviv (in lifestyle, average income, etc.) than Dubai or Abu Dhabi are to Cairo, Amman or even Istanbul.

I could see Israeli tourists visiting the UAE (shopping, cheaper beach that at home, exotism, etc) as well as Emiratis visiting Israel specially for the holy muslim sites. Or other expats in the UAE (like Filipinos) visiting the Christian sites in Israel.


Jordan unstable? In what aspect? It's an absolute monarchy that not even the arab spring was able to shake. Also, I wouldn't describe Jordan as "poor". Amman and Aqaba are exotic places (not beautiful though). I just think israelis are not interested.

On the other hand, I have visited AbuDhabi and Dubai many times, mostly on business, and the little time I had left for tourism did not leave me wishing for more. They are both boring places, where rich tourists who love posh hotels, spas and massive shopping centres might enjoy for a few days (in winter!) but that's it. Israeli tourists' interest in those places remains to be seen. And I cannot see emirati tourists visiting Israel. So I'm not a big believer on TLV-DXB or TLV-AUH O&D. However, business traffic and connections, yes.

Enter Turkey, particularly Istanbul, and it's an entirely different thing. Istanbul is one of the most fascinating places on Earth, and there is an endless list of fantastic places to visit in Turkey. In addition, it's way cheaper than the UAE, and islam is not as almighty as it is in the UAE. Turkey and Israel do not hate each other, and Turkey is home to a large jewish community. Turkish people are much more open minded than emiratis, and at least in Istanbul, religion does not represent a problem or pose a threat to non-muslims. Apart from the posh things, I cannot see what the UAE have to offer israelis that Turkey hasn´t.


Although Amman is a fairly modern place, Jordan in general is definitely a poor country. It is unstable in the sense that there is internal tension between the Hashemites and the ruling elite which have their origin in the nomadic desert tribes and the Palestinians which now constitute a majority of the Jordanian population. As such, there is a certain inherent instability to the monarchy. Many Israelis do visit Jordan but they generally go to Petra as the rest of Jordan has no particular attraction to them. To the other main tourist destination in Jordan - Aqaba, Israelis already have a direct equivalent (literally and figuratively): Eilat.

While the Turks and Israelis have good relations on a personal level, the exact opposite can be said with respect to relations with the nouveau-Sultan and that has affected Israeli tourism to Turkey and especially Istanbul a lot. I do agree with you though that Istanbul is an exciting place to visit.

With respect to Gulf Arabs visiting Israel... in the various announcements regarding the new relations between Israel and the UAE it was made a point to stress that visiting Arabs are free to visit and pray at Al-Aqsa so I wouldn’t say there is zero reason for them to visit Israel. Also, Israel has a large Arab population which has been, in many ways, shunned by the larger Arab world and this may serve to reduce some of their cultural isolation from other Arabs. One factor that will influence this will be whether travel between the UAE and Israel will be visa-free or not.
 
flybaby
Posts: 247
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:20 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
I suspect the decision by Saudi Arabia to launch the oil price war against Russia had a lot to do with this. I suspect the UAE airlines would have been looking at making flights to TLV as it would just make business sense. The decision to hurt everyone, well almost everyone in the area's pocket by being idiots would have meant Riyadh lost the ability to argue against this to happen.


You are bringing things into it that I didn't know.

I do believe that long-term, the oil-rich areas are thinking about what their future looks like. If they want to be a business center (speaking of UAE), they probably need to learn to work with Israelis on business. UAE is undergoing a maturation process (and so is Israel... hopefully). Business is better than war.


Unfortunately, if the Gulf states continue on their current course then the IMF at least does not portend a good outcome for them economically in the future: https://apnews.com/54a0e5d9e5c622868ae59a46e63f837a (and this was before coronavirus). They need to diversify their economies.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:41 pm

TC957 wrote:
Perhaps Qatar will be next to acknowledge Israel and sign a peace pack. Qatar needs all the friends it can get in the Middle East right now.


I don't see Qatar jumping on board here. I'd expect them to be last to join (outside of Iran)
 
Toinou
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:14 pm

CALMSP wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Perhaps Qatar will be next to acknowledge Israel and sign a peace pack. Qatar needs all the friends it can get in the Middle East right now.


I don't see Qatar jumping on board here. I'd expect them to be last to join (outside of Iran)

I guess it depends. They have close ties to Iran but no proper allegiance. They also have their own objectives, like UAE is close to Saudi Arabia but not always acting according to Riyadh instructions.
Qatar won't probably go first but they may follow the crowd if they find and interest in doing so. Given relationships to Iran (and general policies), I would tend to think that Lebanon, Syria and Iraq are to the be the last ones.
 
LTCM
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:50 pm

raylee67 wrote:
This actually opens up possibilities beyond UAE. As UAE is a major Gulf country, I would have to believe that UAE was not doing this in complete secrecy. Other Gulf countries (except Qatar) would have been briefed before the public announcement. At least they would have agreed to not condemn this move by UAE.

If there are not a lot of negative public response to this move by UAE, we may see other smaller Gulf countries, such as Kuwait and Oman, moving to the same direction. We may even see more moderate Muslim countries such as Malaysia moving there.

This may open up flights between TLV and KWI, etc., and KU may finally allow Israelis to board. It cancelled LHR-JFK because it was ordered to allow Israeli on board, which it refused to do.


The only negative response from many of the Gulf countries is that they didn't their agreements done first. Missed out on all that sweet, sweet PR.

Oman's Official Response:
The Foreign Ministry today issued a statement reading as follows:

“An official spokesperson at the Foreign Ministry expressed the Sultanate of Oman's support for the decision of the United Arab Emirates regarding relations with Israel within the framework of the historic joint declaration between the UAE, the United States and Israel.

The Sultanate hopes that this will contribute to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East, in a way that serves aspirations of the peoples of the region in sustaining the pillars of security and stability and advancing the causes of progress and prosperity for all”.


https://omannews.gov.om/NewsDescription ... -Statement

Bahrain Official Repsonse:
The speaker expressed her confidence that the deal would stimulate more effective steps that would increase the chances of reaching peace in the Middle East, consolidate peace and stability in the region, as well as strengthen the pillars of security, progress and prosperity.


https://www.bna.bh/en/SpeakerhailsUAEsu ... zvXfDNU%3d

TC957 wrote:
Perhaps Qatar will be next to acknowledge Israel and sign a peace pack. Qatar needs all the friends it can get in the Middle East right now.


This agreement announcement is a giant middle finger to Qatar. No way they are working with another at this point.
 
airbazar
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:47 pm

flybaby wrote:
airbazar wrote:
First off, we've been here before so lets not get too excited until something actually happens :)

jmc1975 wrote:
It’ll be interesting to see how quickly EK or EY will add flights to TLV

Still a long detour just to travel 1,200nm. Despite the reported secret relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, I don't see SA changing its official stance any time soon. They have nothing to gain from it.


If Saudi granted overflight rights to an Indian carrier to TLV then it is likely to grant those same rights to the UAE which is a much closer Arab ally of Saudi and a member of the GCC.

However, this will piss off LY even more though than AI having been granted exclusive rights to overfly Saudi given the connection possibilities at DXB.


India is the 3rd largest muslim country in the world, and has nuclear weapons. The UAE doesn't have nearly the same leverage.
 
escapedia
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:18 pm

Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:53 pm

I guess soon enough I'll see EY and EK contrails over my home on routes to Europe
 
flybaby
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:20 am

Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:05 pm

airbazar wrote:
flybaby wrote:
airbazar wrote:
First off, we've been here before so lets not get too excited until something actually happens :)


Still a long detour just to travel 1,200nm. Despite the reported secret relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, I don't see SA changing its official stance any time soon. They have nothing to gain from it.


If Saudi granted overflight rights to an Indian carrier to TLV then it is likely to grant those same rights to the UAE which is a much closer Arab ally of Saudi and a member of the GCC.

However, this will piss off LY even more though than AI having been granted exclusive rights to overfly Saudi given the connection possibilities at DXB.


India is the 3rd largest muslim country in the world, and has nuclear weapons. The UAE doesn't have nearly the same leverage.


Yeah, but the KSA and the UAE have much closer ties than India and the KSA.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5785
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:57 pm

olle wrote:
Turkey seem to consider cutting ties with UAE.


Israel should ban Turkish Airlines from flying to TLV.
 
WAC
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:17 pm

The main flow of tourism will be UAE to Israel not just religious but also pure leisure. Israel will be the nearest place for weekend/holidays both for locals and expats in UAE looking for "western cultural" break- i.e. partying/alcohol. UAE might have a very modern infrastructure and highly technological advance but it is far from liberal social scene with alcohol restrictions and conservative laws on relationships and public affection. Local Emirati and expats looking for a party or weekend of boozing will find Tel Aviv and Haifa a great alternative to Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt all which have more liberal laws and culture than UAE.
Overall this "normalisation" of relationships will not have huge impact on tourism or aviation but is concentrated on geopolitics, security along with technological and healthcare infrastructure/development.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:32 pm

Blerg wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Bye bye El Al , the Israelis are going to love EK and it’s fantastic network


It's not just LY that will pay the price now, there is also TK which is currently the busiest foreign airline in Israel.


To a lesser extent, Aeroflot. Aeroflot flies a lot of jews between JFK and TLV through SVO.
 
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LH748
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:42 am

I just can't imagine an LY jet flying over an Arab country and even land there.
It just completely contradicts their well-established security concept. LY got its own security staff and I highly doubt the UAE would grant LY any rights at DXB or AUH. Chances are good though that we will see FlyDubai, Air Arabia, Etihad and Emirates at TLV.
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LH748
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:50 am

TC957 wrote:
Perhaps Qatar will be next to acknowledge Israel and sign a peace pack. Qatar needs all the friends it can get in the Middle East right now.


Qatar's best friend Iran won't let that happen and QR definitely needs the Iranian air space as long as the other Gulf countries cut them off. Tehran is already furious about the establishment of relations and I'm pretty sure we'll see more tensions in the Gulf region in the near future.
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AA AB AC AF AK AZ BA DE DL EW FD FR HF HG IB IR MF KU LH LT LX OD TG TK TP UA VJ VN WN W6 YP YW
 
WAC
Posts: 145
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:04 am

LH748 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Perhaps Qatar will be next to acknowledge Israel and sign a peace pack. Qatar needs all the friends it can get in the Middle East right now.


Qatar's best friend Iran won't let that happen and QR definitely needs the Iranian air space as long as the other Gulf countries cut them off. Tehran is already furious about the establishment of relations and I'm pretty sure we'll see more tensions in the Gulf region in the near future.

Qatar are the money brokers as well as political/diplomatic brokers of Iran. Qatar has far more wealth than Iran despite Iran having far richer resources whether natural, economic, cultural or sociaI.think we are now going off track from civil aviation...???
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3165
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:16 am

LH748 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Perhaps Qatar will be next to acknowledge Israel and sign a peace pack. Qatar needs all the friends it can get in the Middle East right now.


Qatar's best friend Iran won't let that happen and QR definitely needs the Iranian air space as long as the other Gulf countries cut them off. Tehran is already furious about the establishment of relations and I'm pretty sure we'll see more tensions in the Gulf region in the near future.

Best friend? Qatar's alienation by Saudi Arabia pushed them into closer relations to Iran. Like Israel has had to do if you alienate a country for political reasons they have to make other alliances for survival. Hardly best friends.
 
SueD
Posts: 267
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:53 am

raylee67 wrote:
This actually opens up possibilities beyond UAE. As UAE is a major Gulf country, I would have to believe that UAE was not doing this in complete secrecy. Other Gulf countries (except Qatar) would have been briefed before the public announcement. At least they would have agreed to not condemn this move by UAE.

If there are not a lot of negative public response to this move by UAE, we may see other smaller Gulf countries, such as Kuwait and Oman, moving to the same direction. We may even see more moderate Muslim countries such as Malaysia moving there.

This may open up flights between TLV and KWI, etc., and KU may finally allow Israelis to board. It cancelled LHR-JFK because it was ordered to allow Israeli on board, which it refused to do.


There is are regional geo political forces going on where Kuwait and Qatar are playing both hands from Tehran and Riyadh at the same time, and frankly they aren’t going so well are they. (Embargo on Doha !)

Right now the Shia wall of influence is pretty much complete from Afghanistan to the Mediterranean as far as Tehran is concerned . The core cities and the major coastal strips of Syria remain in Alawite control, whilst Iraq is almost a colony.

There isn’t much hope of either Qatar or Kuwait breaking long antipathy anytime soon afraid to say.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3165
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:43 am

SueD wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
This actually opens up possibilities beyond UAE. As UAE is a major Gulf country, I would have to believe that UAE was not doing this in complete secrecy. Other Gulf countries (except Qatar) would have been briefed before the public announcement. At least they would have agreed to not condemn this move by UAE.

If there are not a lot of negative public response to this move by UAE, we may see other smaller Gulf countries, such as Kuwait and Oman, moving to the same direction. We may even see more moderate Muslim countries such as Malaysia moving there.

This may open up flights between TLV and KWI, etc., and KU may finally allow Israelis to board. It cancelled LHR-JFK because it was ordered to allow Israeli on board, which it refused to do.


There is are regional geo political forces going on where Kuwait and Qatar are playing both hands from Tehran and Riyadh at the same time, and frankly they aren’t going so well are they. (Embargo on Doha !)

Right now the Shia wall of influence is pretty much complete from Afghanistan to the Mediterranean as far as Tehran is concerned . The core cities and the major coastal strips of Syria remain in Alawite control, whilst Iraq is almost a colony.

There isn’t much hope of either Qatar or Kuwait breaking long antipathy anytime soon afraid to say.


To blame Qatar and Kuwait for a problem caused by their large neighbors to the west is not an accurate take to post online
 
SueD
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:53 pm

b747400erf wrote:
SueD wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
This actually opens up possibilities beyond UAE. As UAE is a major Gulf country, I would have to believe that UAE was not doing this in complete secrecy. Other Gulf countries (except Qatar) would have been briefed before the public announcement. At least they would have agreed to not condemn this move by UAE.

If there are not a lot of negative public response to this move by UAE, we may see other smaller Gulf countries, such as Kuwait and Oman, moving to the same direction. We may even see more moderate Muslim countries such as Malaysia moving there.

This may open up flights between TLV and KWI, etc., and KU may finally allow Israelis to board. It cancelled LHR-JFK because it was ordered to allow Israeli on board, which it refused to do.


There is are regional geo political forces going on where Kuwait and Qatar are playing both hands from Tehran and Riyadh at the same time, and frankly they aren’t going so well are they. (Embargo on Doha !)

Right now the Shia wall of influence is pretty much complete from Afghanistan to the Mediterranean as far as Tehran is concerned . The core cities and the major coastal strips of Syria remain in Alawite control, whilst Iraq is almost a colony.

There isn’t much hope of either Qatar or Kuwait breaking long antipathy anytime soon afraid to say.


To blame Qatar and Kuwait for a problem caused by their large neighbors to the west is not an accurate take to post online


Why ?

The serious games Qatar are playing is expressly why they find themselves ostracised and the Kuwaiti leadership also because they have an immense domestic Shia population to appease !

As an Israeli you should understand the power game more than most.

The axis has shifted from a united front against Israel to a more nuanced and rather more threatening internecine battle across the wider region between Saudi Wahhabi and Iranian Shia influences period stop.

Seems the current Saudi Crowned Prince is a pragmatist; great for thawing the freeze when combined the Middle Eastern epitaph The Enemy of my enemy is my friend approach.
 
Toinou
Posts: 285
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:02 pm

SueD wrote:
The Kuwaiti leadership also because they have an immense domestic Shia population to appease !

Shia are only a minority in Kuwait (not a small one but still a minority). Don't you confuse with Bahrain?
That being said, I agree that they tend to have their own foreign policy, trying to navigate between the regional powers, quite effectively in my opinion.
That's why I tend to think that they may not move fast to normalize relationships with Israel. They may try to find another way. And (about this forum's topic) as KU is not exactly a major player in the connection market, I think they would have little interest in establishing air links to TLV.
 
Breathe
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:02 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
How would a jewish israeli citizen feel when flying on a muslim airline? I think they can relax a bit about the meals, they will certainly NOT be served pork for lunch.
I highlight the jewish israeli combination, because it is the most controversial. Most american /european jewish people would not have any problem, and neither would muslim israelis or non-religious israelis.

Since we're specifically talking about the UAE here, EK and EY both serve alcohol on their flights, which isn't exactly halal!
 
olle
Posts: 2343
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Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:22 pm

SueD wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
SueD wrote:

There is are regional geo political forces going on where Kuwait and Qatar are playing both hands from Tehran and Riyadh at the same time, and frankly they aren’t going so well are they. (Embargo on Doha !)

Right now the Shia wall of influence is pretty much complete from Afghanistan to the Mediterranean as far as Tehran is concerned . The core cities and the major coastal strips of Syria remain in Alawite control, whilst Iraq is almost a colony.

There isn’t much hope of either Qatar or Kuwait breaking long antipathy anytime soon afraid to say.


To blame Qatar and Kuwait for a problem caused by their large neighbors to the west is not an accurate take to post online


Why ?

The serious games Qatar are playing is expressly why they find themselves ostracised and the Kuwaiti leadership also because they have an immense domestic Shia population to appease !

As an Israeli you should understand the power game more than most.

The axis has shifted from a united front against Israel to a more nuanced and rather more threatening internecine battle across the wider region between Saudi Wahhabi and Iranian Shia influences period stop.

Seems the current Saudi Crowned Prince is a pragmatist; great for thawing the freeze when combined the Middle Eastern epitaph The Enemy of my enemy is my friend approach.



Sunni and shia seems to be more important then israel. I have the sensation that iran abuses the palestinian situation to be the more true arabic and israel hilltop the same in order to avoid questions.

War in syria yemen and partly afganistan is an effect of sunni shia wars.
 
SueD
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Normalisation of relations between Israel and UAE air links

Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:52 pm

Toinou wrote:
SueD wrote:
The Kuwaiti leadership also because they have an immense domestic Shia population to appease !

Shia are only a minority in Kuwait (not a small one but still a minority). Don't you confuse with Bahrain?
That being said, I agree that they tend to have their own foreign policy, trying to navigate between the regional powers, quite effectively in my opinion.
That's why I tend to think that they may not move fast to normalize relationships with Israel. They may try to find another way. And (about this forum's topic) as KU is not exactly a major player in the connection market, I think they would have little interest in establishing air links to TLV.


Not confused with Bahrain - Now thats a real boiling and largely unreported mess for sure .

The Kuwaiti authorities are trying avoid a similar political situation with some appeasement, rather than the Bahrainis sitting on the Shia AL Mukhtar “terrorists” with direct Saudi military and intelligence support . There has been near constant low level public unrest in Bahrain for the last decade .

Now these issues are both interesting and worrisome and I suppose for the Non Aviation forums.

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