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MaverickM11
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Birtherism is back!

Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:49 pm

Turns out racists are still racist:

Trump campaign attack on Kamala Harris’s citizenship is right out of the birtherism playbook
The Trump campaign wasted no time suggesting the first Black woman on a major party ticket is ineligible to serve.

https://www.vox.com/2020/8/13/21366668/ ... in-oakland

Trump, of course, chimes right in:
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1294033658068770820
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casinterest
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:52 pm

Looks like Trump is going for a ride on the racist birther pony again.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... eory-about

"I just heard that. I heard it today, that she doesn’t meet the requirements," he said. "And by the way, the lawyer that wrote that piece is a very highly qualified, talented lawyer.

"I have no idea if that’s right. I would have assumed the Democrats would have checked that out before she gets chosen to run for vice president," he continued. "I don’t know about it. I just heard about it. I’ll take a look."
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Ken777
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:09 am

Trump is still the ignorant racist that he was 4 years ago. That basically shows he is also afraid if a loss.

It also shows that the "Trumpers" are still dumb enough to believe that crap, exotically when "endorsed" by Putin. Trump is dumb, but a lot of his supporters are far dumber.

Personally I would like the USSC come down hard on Trump and the GOP for their efforts in blocking's ng ballots. What is that? Mail fraud?
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:42 am

Racist comments will not be tolerated in any form on this website. Racist comments will likely lead to your account being banned. Be respectful or don't post, it's very simple.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:31 am

Trump's tactic is simply to spread allegations. It doesn't matter that they're false, distorted truths or completely imaginary, all it needs to do is reach his base, where the lack of education and understanding of the World around them amplifies it as it bounces around their echo chambers.

Tangible proof that easily dismiss those allegations matter little. All that matters to him is that it reaches the target audience, which is impervious to reality and facts.

He does what he's always done, and the only thing he knows: appealing to the base. They're easy to manipulate.
Except the base won't be enough this time.
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cpd
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:32 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Turns out racists are still racist:

Trump campaign attack on Kamala Harris’s citizenship is right out of the birtherism playbook
The Trump campaign wasted no time suggesting the first Black woman on a major party ticket is ineligible to serve.

https://www.vox.com/2020/8/13/21366668/ ... in-oakland

Trump, of course, chimes right in:
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1294033658068770820


What ever happened to good old policies, rather than this silly stuff? It’s a diversion and shows how immature things have become.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:35 am

Francoflier wrote:
Trump's tactic is simply to spread allegations. It doesn't matter that they're false, distorted truths or completely imaginary, all it needs to do is reach his base, where the lack of education and understanding of the World around them amplifies it as it bounces around their echo chambers.

Tangible proof that easily dismiss those allegations matter little. All that matters to him is that it reaches the target audience, which is impervious to reality and facts.

He does what he's always done, and the only thing he knows: appealing to the base. They're easy to manipulate.
Except the base won't be enough this time.


Yes, and beyond ‘reaching the base’ this type of claim supports his antecedent strategy to fling so many feces on the daily that more important things are overlooked. Like hijacking the postal system and Vol V of the Senate Intel Committee’s investigation...
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:58 am

Trump and his supporters don't care if what he says is true or not. Most would concede that much of what he says is not exactly true. But it is, or becomes, part of their tribal mythology. It is also in part a power play, whatever the maximum leader says is part of our reality. Putin, Kim, Xi - good. Leaders of the free world - bad.
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Sokes
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:16 am

Can somebody enlighten me in what way Trump's comment is racist?
Second or third generation Germans with Turkish roots are much more German than those of first generation born in Germany.

I would go a step further and say a politician should be second generation born in concerned country.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:21 am

Sokes wrote:
Can somebody enlighten me in what way Trump's comment is racist?


seriously? Because he implies that someone that clearly is a natural born US Citizen may not be allowed to serve as VP because her parents where foreigners?

Second or third generation Germans with Turkish roots are much more German than those of first generation born in Germany.


you automatically are a US Citizen if you are born on US soil. The kid a friend of mine is a US Citizen just because he was born 8 weeks early. I went to school with a whole lot of US citizens, because their Parents where stationed in the US at that time of their birth....

Germany also doens´t have 2nd Class citizenship like the US has. You can be elected President here on the day you become a German citizen, as long as you are 40 years old.

I would go a step further and say a politician should be second generation born in concerned country.


i guess that does make you a racist.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
N867DA
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:29 am

Sokes wrote:
Can somebody enlighten me in what way Trump's comment is racist?
Second or third generation Germans with Turkish roots are much more German than those of first generation born in Germany.

I would go a step further and say a politician should be second generation born in concerned country.


The president is very good at using noncommittal language to fan nativist and racist views without being explicitly racist. For example, "I'm not saying Person X skins children alive in his basement but I understand some people think he does, and I've heard they have very good evidence that I'm not sure about but some people are". He clearly wants people to say and think Person X skins kids alive while maintaining some plausible deniability...and his base will leave the speech thinking it's true. This has been Trump's MO for the past five years.


I feel it's a little racist to believe second-generation Americans (or even native-born Americans) are more authentically American. Someone born abroad but has been a citizen of the same state for decades can never be president, but someone who was born in the US, raised elsewhere, and moves back to the US when they're 55 could reasonably run when they're 70. Who is more 'American'?
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
Sokes
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:56 am

N867DA wrote:
I feel it's a little racist to believe second-generation Americans (or even native-born Americans) are more authentically American. Someone born abroad but has been a citizen of the same state for decades can never be president, but someone who was born in the US, raised elsewhere, and moves back to the US when they're 55 could reasonably run when they're 70. Who is more 'American'?

Good point.
But I would exclude that guy as well.

About Trump:
I can't judge that.
From what I see from far away he is embarrassing, but not evil. No paranoia, no sadism.
Indeed I often have a good laugh about his statements/ behaviour.
And I wonder why so many people are so hostile.
Because he didn't deserve a Nobel peace price like Obama?
What to say about Bush then?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
N867DA
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:16 am

Sokes wrote:
N867DA wrote:
I feel it's a little racist to believe second-generation Americans (or even native-born Americans) are more authentically American. Someone born abroad but has been a citizen of the same state for decades can never be president, but someone who was born in the US, raised elsewhere, and moves back to the US when they're 55 could reasonably run when they're 70. Who is more 'American'?

Good point.
But I would exclude that guy as well.

About Trump:
I can't judge that.
From what I see from far away he is embarrassing, but not evil. No paranoia, no sadism.
Indeed I often have a good laugh about his statements/ behaviour.
And I wonder why so many people are so hostile.
Because he didn't deserve a Nobel peace price like Obama?
What to say about Bush then?


I think restrictions on who can hold office won't change because it is in the constitution but it seems the way we interpret the rules is up for debate. John McCain was OK to run even though he was born in the Panama Canal Zone to US citizens and the Panama Canal Zone was technically US soil. A few years later Ted Cruz was OKed despite being born in Canada because his parents were both US citizens and he got US citizenship immediately at birth. I don't know how these circumstances would have been deemed historically but they were definitely issues when each began their presidential runs.

Trump is not evil but he is good at giving his base what they need to vote for him. He is a champion of making people feel a specific way even if there is little substance in in what he says. He also has a very skewed view of his actions; he is definitely a protagonist that can do no wrong in his eyes and this makes it difficult for him to see nuance in events or admit when things could have been done better. No politician is blunt about their failures but they definitely won't say something went "great" when it clearly did not.

In truth, Donald Trump is not a very inclusive person. I don't know if he wants people like me, nonwhite non-Christians, to be Americans and his rhetoric justifies and gives a role model for people who feel that way but never spoke up. When he calls out Kamala Harris or Obama for potentially not being American, millions of immigrant Americans can hear him screaming the unsaid part. Even Bush didn't do as Trump has done.

There's a definite ebb and flow; Trump's opposition also plays similar race-and-national-origin cards, often very poorly or with some elements of racism. Democrats sometimes say/do things to imply minorities or immigrants are poor or otherwise incapable of handling their affairs, which is definitely insulting at times. But they've never made me feel unwelcome in my own country the way the Trump brand of Republicanism does.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:20 am

Why distinguish between types of citizens based on where they were born or who their parents were in the first place?

Either you are a citizen of a country and then you should have the full set of rights, or you aren't a citizen at all, simple as that.

Anyway, this rule where an American (Vice)-President should always be a natural born citizen (other than a whole range of historic Presidents that is then...) is just ridiculous: all it's doesn't is allowing somebody naturalized to run for the office, all the rest is in the hands of the people at election day. If they'd prefer to elect somebody who's foreign born, then why should it matter?

Besides, the rules do not forbit a US president from still holding a second nationality, something much more worrying so to say than a President previously having changed nationality.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:45 am

is anybody really surprised? Trump likes to lie, and he has plenty of enablers to spread doubt.
However, The 14th Amendment makes it clear: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

next
 
Sokes
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:45 am

@tommy:
Maybe it's more about the right to vote than the right to stand for elections.
And it depends what type of immigrants one has.

Thorstein Veblen wrote the book "The leisure class". It's about the American society IIRC around 1900 or a little before that. It's about showing one's position by doing nothing or have the wife do nothing. And the more servants one can afford to do unproductive work the higher the social standing.
Mukesh Ambani in India has a skyscraper in Mumbai based on Veblen's principles.
Similar many common people in India work less if social spending goes up. Not only that, but politicians who do good work don't get reelected. Those who increase social spending do. Worst: many families have conflicts because maintenance of old people is not shared among children. But people demand subsidies for themselves, not for old people.

Indians who are allowed to immigrate in the US are the high performer. No risk that they vote for social spending.

Lebanon is in the news. Their democracy doesn't seem to work too well. Would you like Lebanese immigrants to get the vote?
You think their voting priorities would shift radical because of emmigration?

If countries like Germany encourage immigration of unqualified labor the question arises which mentality the first generation born in Germany will have. If they pick up Veblen mentality from their parents I prefer they don't get the vote.

The second generation should be more consumption oriented, so they should fit in the society.

Racist would be to attach the vote to skin colour.
My son is mixed. I think I'm the wrong person to be blamed as racist.
Maybe I'm prejudiced. But then I claim for myself to accept criticism. So how prejudiced can I be?

There are many questions which may arise:
Gay marriage, weapon laws, social spending, tenancy laws, tax laws...
People better fit before they vote.

Also foreigner is not foreigner.
Somebody who immigrates from a liberal society fits better.
Are both parents immigrants or only one?

Edit:
As the US allows only high performers to immigrate it may be less of an issue for them.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:40 am

Sokes wrote:
@tommy:
Maybe it's more about the right to vote than the right to stand for elections. .


Nope, every US citizen can vote, regardless of how long they are citizens or how they became to be US citizens.

There is no "upgrade" from being born in the US in any way, shape or form. She is eligible, end of story.

There are three things you have to be to be eligible to be US president, and hence VP:

- Natural Born US citizen, which, being born a US citizen, she clearly is.
- 35 years old. She is a bit older
- Resident of the US for at least 14 years. She was a resident of the US for all her life.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
vrbarreto
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:49 am

Really is pathetic...

https://www.newsweek.com/some-questions ... on-1524483

The good professor argued the exact opposite when it came to Ted Cruz:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/01/ ... president/

He must somehow be related to Boris Johnson..
 
Sokes
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:02 am

N867DA wrote:
No politician is blunt about their failures but they definitely won't say something went "great" when it clearly did not.

Democrats sometimes say/do things to imply minorities or immigrants are poor or otherwise incapable of handling their affairs, which is definitely insulting at times. But they've never made me feel unwelcome in my own country the way the Trump brand of Republicanism does.


1. sentence: :)

2. sentence:
Thank you. I can feel now what you mean. Is it less about Trump, and more about his supporters?
Is it because he speaks all rubbish, his supporters feel encouraged to do the same and out comes racial remarks?

I myself am a foreigner in India.
Small things can lead to conflicts. E. g. Indians like to plug flowers and offer them to their gods. They don't feel wrong to plug them from somebody's hedge. As a German I find this not acceptable.
But then I'm the immigrant. I have to accept.
There are some matters in which I prefer the Indian way. E. g. if I make a mistake in traffic, I'm not cursed, but smiled at. But strange enough, though I like to live in India, I focus more on the negative aspects.
In short: ethnocentrism is bad, but human.

My son likes to jump with bicycles. He often falls and gets scratches. Neighbors believe they can tell him what he should do. It's a collective society, but I brought him up liberal. He hates it. But he is born in India and his mother is Indian.

Similar many second hand cars in Germany are sold by Germans with Turkish ancestors. They buy and sell, I believe twice a year is not considered commercial. Many of them have a way of bargaining that is irritating for Bio- Germans.
Now these were only trivial examples. I chose purposely unimportant ones.

Some foreigners fit, some fit after one generation, some will take longer.
I believe immigrants from a totally different culture or their children should best marry somebody who already has the mentality of the society.

Humans are prejudiced.
Things done not the way we are brought up irritate us.
Focus on those who try to accept, feel pitty with those who can't reflect their prejudice.
If you accept that different cultures always have conflicts it might be easier to move on.
You may also want to accept that humans don't like to see things differentiated. If the probability of making a bad experience with members of a certain group is strongly increased we don't consider that over 80% of that group do not behave different.
We are monkeys, we think in groups.
Black people and Trump voters are not seen by their individual characteristics, but by being member of a group.

I agree what I wrote is not helpful if you already share mainstream ideals, but happen to be coloured.

I tend to judge cultures/ countries by their recent advancements.
From KKK to a coloured president suggests that the white people of the US deserve praise.

How many white people are hidden racists?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:09 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seriously? Because he implies that someone that clearly is a natural born US Citizen may not be allowed to serve as VP because her parents where foreigners?

Second or third generation Germans with Turkish roots are much more German than those of first generation born in Germany.


you automatically are a US Citizen if you are born on US soil. The kid a friend of mine is a US Citizen just because he was born 8 weeks early. I went to school with a whole lot of US citizens, because their Parents where stationed in the US at that time of their birth....

Germany also doens´t have 2nd Class citizenship like the US has. You can be elected President here on the day you become a German citizen, as long as you are 40 years old.

I would go a step further and say a politician should be second generation born in concerned country.


i guess that does make you a racist.

best regards
Thomas


In France you can become French at 18 (it's generally what happens when you have spent 5 years of your childhood here but were born elsewhere, with no French parent) and be elected president the next day. It has been deemed that democracy means it's up to the electorate to decide if that would be a good idea. The US with all its old rules got Trump so that would tend to prove it (especially since a French president is elected by the people, no intermediaries).

At the 2012 election I voted for Eva Joly born Gro Eva Farseth, who had no connexion to France until she moved here at 20. She became famous in France and elsewhere as an anti-corruption prosecutor, in a way you could say she's not totally French, not accepting a bit of corruption in politics and life ! She has a significant Norwegian accents and idiots didn't miss the opportunity to point it out during the campaign, along with criticizing some of her other policies because surely no French would agree (stopping the military parade on Bastille day, dismantling nuclear weapons), when in fact it's just standard Green politics everywhere.

President Valéry Giscard d'Estaing was born in Germany.

Premier ministre Manuel Valls is a Spaniard who became French at 20.

Also my mother, who came to France age 3, changed her name to make it sound more French, and almost hides the fact she has Italian origins, she's more French than many old French families where the latest offspring dreams of a career in London or NYC...
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Sokes
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:16 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
@tommy:
Maybe it's more about the right to vote than the right to stand for elections. .


Nope, every US citizen can vote...

best regards
Thomas

You are right of course. I meant to say my original remark about not being eligible for election was poor thought through, as my opinion is more about having the vote.

Good info about US, law, thanks.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
art
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:05 pm

N867DA wrote:
I feel it's a little racist to believe second-generation Americans (or even native-born Americans) are more authentically American. Someone born abroad but has been a citizen of the same state for decades can never be president, but someone who was born in the US, raised elsewhere, and moves back to the US when they're 55 could reasonably run when they're 70. Who is more 'American'?


Don't know my American history too well. Why did they dream up the requirement in the first place?

Why can someone who was originally a citizen of a foreign land become Governor of California but not POTUS?
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:47 pm

art wrote:
Why did they dream up the requirement in the first place?

The Framers of the Constitution feared foreign influence and as such, wanted someone born in the country to lead it. Think about it: who can better relate to the issues of the country: someone who was born and raised in the country or someone who swore loyalty to a foreign power and only recently moved to the country?

art wrote:
Why can someone who was originally a citizen of a foreign land become Governor of California but not POTUS?

States are different from the country as a whole. Each states sets forth requirements for its office holders. If CA's Constitution allows a baby to be elected governor, then that is CA's prerogative. Each state is technically sovereign in its own matters; whatever is not prohibited by the Constitution is reserved for the states. If there's no amendment or clause at the federal level saying that state executives MUST be US citizens, then any state can elect whoever it wants according to its constitution..

That being said, in the case of Schwarzenegger, he was naturalized so even though he was born in Austria, CA's Constitution allowed him to run (it required a candidate to be a US citizen...how citizenship was awarded is not explicitly mentioned so a natural born US citizen and a naturalized US citizen are both eligible to serve).
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bmartino99
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:42 pm

I'm disappointed to see us going back down this path, but it isn't only a recent discussion. This argument has been happening since the formation of the United States. If Congress could get along they could simply legally define 'natural born citizen', seeing as that's the term that even legal scholars aren't all in agreement on.
 
Ken777
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:38 pm

Notice how Trump never names "some people say" or the "highly qualified lawyer"? It's either Putin or one of Trump's Idiots in the White House
 
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seb146
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:50 pm

bmartino99 wrote:
I'm disappointed to see us going back down this path, but it isn't only a recent discussion. This argument has been happening since the formation of the United States. If Congress could get along they could simply legally define 'natural born citizen', seeing as that's the term that even legal scholars aren't all in agreement on.


That is actually defined in Article II Section 1 of the Constution

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

We had this discussion with Obama and McCain and Ted Cruz and Chester Arthur. But, because it is a Democrat, some people can not let it go......
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Francoflier
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:40 am

Never had the birther debate been so moot.

Trump may be a third generation immigrant born and raised in the US, yet no President before him has ever influenced foreign policy so much for the benefit of other nations or himself, nor has one ever had as many personal economic interests outside of the country, which seems to have had an effect on the way he approached diplomatic relations.

What about instead of uselessly debating about birth certificates there was a rule to make sure a candidate doesn't have any financial interests that may affect his/her foreign policy (or internal one for that matter)?

Of course, that would imply a candidate revealed his tax return... ;)
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Aaron747
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:47 am

Francoflier wrote:
Never had the birther debate been so moot.

Trump may be a third generation immigrant born and raised in the US, yet no President before him has ever influenced foreign policy so much for the benefit of other nations or himself, nor has one ever had as many personal economic interests outside of the country, which seems to have had an effect on the way he approached diplomatic relations.

What about instead of uselessly debating about birth certificates there was a rule to make sure a candidate doesn't have any financial interests that may affect his/her foreign policy (or internal one for that matter)?

Of course, that would imply a candidate revealed his tax return... ;)


...and didn’t lie to investigators and/or obstruct ongoing investigations. The current inquiry in NY into his Deutsche Bank loans indicates very large sums of money were underwritten by a Russian state bank. If that’s not conflict of interest, what is?
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Francoflier
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:24 am

Aaron747 wrote:
...and didn’t lie to investigators and/or obstruct ongoing investigations. The current inquiry in NY into his Deutsche Bank loans indicates very large sums of money were underwritten by a Russian state bank. If that’s not conflict of interest, what is?


Well, I guess whether the candidate is a criminal is indeed a consideration that should come well before his or her country of birth... but apparently not in the World we live in. :sigh:
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
art
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:29 am

Francoflier wrote:
What about instead of uselessly debating about birth certificates there was a rule to make sure a candidate doesn't have any financial interests that may affect his/her foreign policy (or internal one for that matter)?


Well,if there is no such policy, it will be because the people appointed to govern the country have avoided making rules that forbidding conflicts of interest. An ethical bunch of representatives would have made such rules to ensure that those wielding power (ie themselves) would be obliged to maintain high standards of behaviour.

The recent fiasco of those of a similar political persuasion refusing to condemh a president clearly guilty of the offences for which he was impeached illustrates just how little integrity there is in the members of US Senate. Politics before ethics is the name of the game, isn't it? Forget about what is right or wrong, what is true or false, just swear to do what is right and then do what you know is wrong!
 
art
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:33 am

Francoflier wrote:
What about instead of uselessly debating about birth certificates there was a rule to make sure a candidate doesn't have any financial interests that may affect his/her foreign policy (or internal one for that matter)?


Well,if there is no such policy, it will be because the people appointed to govern the country have avoided making rules forbidding conflicts of interest. An ethical bunch of representatives would have made such rules to ensure that those wielding power (ie themselves) would be obliged to maintain high standards of behaviour.

The recent fiasco of those of a similar political persuasion refusing to condemh a president clearly guilty of the offences for which he was impeached illustrates just how little integrity there is in the members of US Senate. Politics before ethics is the name of the game, isn't it? Forget about what is right or wrong, what is true or false, just swear to do what is right and then do what you know is wrong!

With absolutely no repercussions...
 
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seb146
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:38 pm

art wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
What about instead of uselessly debating about birth certificates there was a rule to make sure a candidate doesn't have any financial interests that may affect his/her foreign policy (or internal one for that matter)?


Well,if there is no such policy, it will be because the people appointed to govern the country have avoided making rules that forbidding conflicts of interest. An ethical bunch of representatives would have made such rules to ensure that those wielding power (ie themselves) would be obliged to maintain high standards of behaviour.

The recent fiasco of those of a similar political persuasion refusing to condemh a president clearly guilty of the offences for which he was impeached illustrates just how little integrity there is in the members of US Senate. Politics before ethics is the name of the game, isn't it? Forget about what is right or wrong, what is true or false, just swear to do what is right and then do what you know is wrong!


There actually is a section of the Constitution call the Emoluments Clause

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... businesses

We already know the current occupant has violated this over and over and over. Every time he goes golfing, he violates this.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
art
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:45 pm

seb146 wrote:
art wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
What about instead of uselessly debating about birth certificates there was a rule to make sure a candidate doesn't have any financial interests that may affect his/her foreign policy (or internal one for that matter)?


Well,if there is no such policy, it will be because the people appointed to govern the country have avoided making rules that forbidding conflicts of interest. An ethical bunch of representatives would have made such rules to ensure that those wielding power (ie themselves) would be obliged to maintain high standards of behaviour.

The recent fiasco of those of a similar political persuasion refusing to condemh a president clearly guilty of the offences for which he was impeached illustrates just how little integrity there is in the members of US Senate. Politics before ethics is the name of the game, isn't it? Forget about what is right or wrong, what is true or false, just swear to do what is right and then do what you know is wrong!


There actually is a section of the Constitution call the Emoluments Clause

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... businesses

We already know the current occupant has violated this over and over and over. Every time he goes golfing, he violates this.


Thanks for the opinion and link. The link seems to make it clear that elected officials benefitting personally from involvement with a foreign power is not OK. If the constitution does not also make it clear that benefitting personally from involvement with indigenous entities is not OK, then I think the US constitution / US law is not OK.

People of integrity in positions of political power in systems where representatives are chosen to serve the state ensure that there can be no conflict of interest between personal gain and their position. If the state itself does not demand that and sanction those transgressing (which the US has demonstrated is not the case - just look at the trial involving the state versus President Trump) - then the system invites corruption. Those charged with judging the president in impeachment proceedings are themselves corrupt. Appointed as arbiters with a duty to come to a decision based on the facts, they corruptly disregard the facts when coming to a decision because their interest is in avoiding political disadvantage. They are not competent to judge because they lack the integrity to judge on the facts.

I say get rid of them. Lock them up. They are guilty of perjury. People deserve better than representatives who promise to uphold the constitution of a country but hold the constitution in such contempt that they will do their utmost to undermine the constitution of the country if that is what suits them best.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:02 am

Sokes wrote:
Can somebody enlighten me in what way Trump's comment is racist?
Second or third generation Germans with Turkish roots are much more German than those of first generation born in Germany.

I would go a step further and say a politician should be second generation born in concerned country.


My thoughts exactly. The question is not about what race Kamala's parents are, but instead were here parents here on work visas, were her parents already US citizens. The question would apply whether Kamala's parents were from Africa, Australia, Argentina, or somewhere in between!!! The MSM, who is in the back pocket of the DNC, is now labeling any Rep./conservative question about Kamala, as either racist, or sexist. And their fans love them for it. Work in the narrative against Trump 24/7-- every story.

So, bty, inquiring minds would like to know, what was the status of Kamala's parents when she was born??

Side question that I don't know the answer to: If an American husband and wife, working at the American embassy in Russia, leave the embassy to go to a Russian hospital for the wife to give birth... is that child, born on Russian soil, now a Russian Citizen??

Bty, you can't hear me mis-pronouncing Kamala's name as I type it... but I am. I mean I think I am... I've heard Biden pronounce it both ways... so who cares!!
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Aaron747
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:13 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Can somebody enlighten me in what way Trump's comment is racist?
Second or third generation Germans with Turkish roots are much more German than those of first generation born in Germany.

I would go a step further and say a politician should be second generation born in concerned country.


My thoughts exactly. The question is not about what race Kamala's parents are, but instead were here parents here on work visas, were her parents already US citizens. The question would apply whether Kamala's parents were from Africa, Australia, Argentina, or somewhere in between!!! The MSM, who is in the back pocket of the DNC, is now labeling any Rep./conservative question about Kamala, as either racist, or sexist. And their fans love them for it. Work in the narrative against Trump 24/7-- every story.

So, bty, inquiring minds would like to know, what was the status of Kamala's parents when she was born??

Side question that I don't know the answer to: If an American husband and wife, working at the American embassy in Russia, leave the embassy to go to a Russian hospital for the wife to give birth... is that child, born on Russian soil, now a Russian Citizen??

Bty, you can't hear me mis-pronouncing Kamala's name as I type it... but I am. I mean I think I am... I've heard Biden pronounce it both ways... so who cares!!


The status of her parents is not a question either. She was born in Oakland, CA - so the 14th amendment applies to her, regardless of her parents’ situation. Have you read the 14th amendment? Wanting laws changed does not excuse basic non-concerns about eligibility. If you have to ask why racism is possibly relevant you were not paying attention when hay was made of 44’s or Ted Cruz’s birthrights.

I don’t know if embassy parents’ kid would be Russian or not - that depends on the citizenship laws there. But their kids would most certainly be US citizens thanks to the 14th amendment.

A HS friend of mine has ‘the golden ticket’ of citizenship - he was born in Canada to a mother from the US and father from the UK. So he has UK, Canadian, and US passports. The world is his oyster.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tommy1808
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:27 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Side question that I don't know the answer to: If an American husband and wife, working at the American embassy in Russia, leave the embassy to go to a Russian hospital for the wife to give birth... is that child, born on Russian soil, now a Russian Citizen??


Nope, that child would be a US citizen. A child born in Russia has Russian citizenship only if one of the parents is Russian, or if the child would not have any citizenship otherwise.

The question is not about what race Kamala's parents are, but instead were here parents here on work visas, were her parents already US citizens.


Its irrelevant. Even if both parents where illegally in the US, she´d still be a US citizen.

is now labeling any Rep./conservative question about Kamala, as either racist, or sexist.


we know it is racist for one simple reason: No one questions if Trump is eligible to hold the office he is in, which would be much the same question as it is for Harris, since his grand father wasn´t a US citizen, as he had denounced US citizenship in 1901, was deported back to the US, and pretended to be US citizen. So, he was not just a illegal, he had actually made clear he didn´t want to be a US Citizen.

If Harris isn´t a US citizen, then Trump parents where illegal aliens and Trump isn´t a US citizen.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:17 am

tommy1808 wrote:

If Harris isn't a US citizen, then Trump parents where illegal aliens and Trump isn't a US citizen.

best regards
Thomas


Both of Trump's parents are illegal aliens??
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Aaron747
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:20 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

If Harris isn't a US citizen, then Trump parents where illegal aliens and Trump isn't a US citizen.

best regards
Thomas


Both of Trump's parents are illegal aliens??


Wow, just wow. I ask again: have you read the 14th amendment?
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Number6
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:49 am

The answer of ‘how is trumps question racist?’ Is easy. Here’s two examples.

Sen. John McCain. Born in Panama, Outside the US. Ran for the officers president against Barack Obama. Calls to view McCain ‘s birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.
Ted Cruz. - Born Alberta, Canada to an American mother and a Canadian father. Calls to see his birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.

Both those guys are white and republicans.

Kamala Harris. - Born Oakland, California, to an Indian mother and a British Jamaican Father. Hmmmm need to look into her status. What if........ and so on.
Barack Obama. Born in Hawaii, to an American mother and an African father. Obviously he’s not American, where’s his birth certificate.

Both these examples are black/minority background people. However, they found and still find themselves under scrutiny over whether they’re really ‘legally’ American. If all of the people above had been treated the same, then no, it’s not racist, but since the only people attracting attention are conspicuously not white, have ‘foreign’ sounding names and foreign parents, then the motivation is clear. We just don’t like admitting it.

As above, the 14th amendment is clear. If you’re born on American soil, you’re a citizen. End of.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:15 am

Number6 wrote:
The answer of ‘how is trumps question racist?’ Is easy. Here’s two examples.

Sen. John McCain. Born in Panama, Outside the US. Ran for the officers president against Barack Obama. Calls to view McCain ‘s birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.
Ted Cruz. - Born Alberta, Canada to an American mother and a Canadian father. Calls to see his birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.

Both those guys are white and republicans.

Kamala Harris. - Born Oakland, California, to an Indian mother and a British Jamaican Father. Hmmmm need to look into her status. What if........ and so on.
Barack Obama. Born in Hawaii, to an American mother and an African father. Obviously he’s not American, where’s his birth certificate.

Both these examples are black/minority background people. However, they found and still find themselves under scrutiny over whether they’re really ‘legally’ American. If all of the people above had been treated the same, then no, it’s not racist, but since the only people attracting attention are conspicuously not white, have ‘foreign’ sounding names and foreign parents, then the motivation is clear. We just don’t like admitting it.

As above, the 14th amendment is clear. If you’re born on American soil, you’re a citizen. End of.


Just for accuracy's sake - there were questions about McCain's eligibility during the GOP primary. But not to the extent of this junk that persists in the last few years.
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Number6
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:11 am

Thanks Aaron. Living outside the US I figured there may be a small disconnect from my post.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:29 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Number6 wrote:
The answer of ‘how is trumps question racist?’ Is easy. Here’s two examples.

Sen. John McCain. Born in Panama, Outside the US. Ran for the officers president against Barack Obama. Calls to view McCain ‘s birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.
Ted Cruz. - Born Alberta, Canada to an American mother and a Canadian father. Calls to see his birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.

Both those guys are white and republicans.

Kamala Harris. - Born Oakland, California, to an Indian mother and a British Jamaican Father. Hmmmm need to look into her status. What if........ and so on.
Barack Obama. Born in Hawaii, to an American mother and an African father. Obviously he’s not American, where’s his birth certificate.

Both these examples are black/minority background people. However, they found and still find themselves under scrutiny over whether they’re really ‘legally’ American. If all of the people above had been treated the same, then no, it’s not racist, but since the only people attracting attention are conspicuously not white, have ‘foreign’ sounding names and foreign parents, then the motivation is clear. We just don’t like admitting it.

As above, the 14th amendment is clear. If you’re born on American soil, you’re a citizen. End of.


Just for accuracy's sake - there were questions about McCain's eligibility during the GOP primary. But not to the extent of this junk that persists in the last few years.


by Trump or by others?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:21 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Number6 wrote:
The answer of ‘how is trumps question racist?’ Is easy. Here’s two examples.

Sen. John McCain. Born in Panama, Outside the US. Ran for the officers president against Barack Obama. Calls to view McCain ‘s birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.
Ted Cruz. - Born Alberta, Canada to an American mother and a Canadian father. Calls to see his birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.

Both those guys are white and republicans.

Kamala Harris. - Born Oakland, California, to an Indian mother and a British Jamaican Father. Hmmmm need to look into her status. What if........ and so on.
Barack Obama. Born in Hawaii, to an American mother and an African father. Obviously he’s not American, where’s his birth certificate.

Both these examples are black/minority background people. However, they found and still find themselves under scrutiny over whether they’re really ‘legally’ American. If all of the people above had been treated the same, then no, it’s not racist, but since the only people attracting attention are conspicuously not white, have ‘foreign’ sounding names and foreign parents, then the motivation is clear. We just don’t like admitting it.

As above, the 14th amendment is clear. If you’re born on American soil, you’re a citizen. End of.


Just for accuracy's sake - there were questions about McCain's eligibility during the GOP primary. But not to the extent of this junk that persists in the last few years.


by Trump or by others?

best regards
Thomas


By others - there were various attempts by lawyers on left and right to postulate theories about McCain. They were quickly discarded.

https://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/john- ... igibility/

Oddly enough McCain failed to properly answer similar rumblings about Ted Cruz.

https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/go ... sident?amp

But none of this persisted for years like the birther bullshit around 44.
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sierrakilo44
Posts: 404
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:49 am

Number6 wrote:
The answer of ‘how is trumps question racist?’ Is easy. Here’s two examples.

Sen. John McCain. Born in Panama, Outside the US. Ran for the officers president against Barack Obama. Calls to view McCain ‘s birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.
Ted Cruz. - Born Alberta, Canada to an American mother and a Canadian father. Calls to see his birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.

Both those guys are white and republicans.

Kamala Harris. - Born Oakland, California, to an Indian mother and a British Jamaican Father. Hmmmm need to look into her status. What if........ and so on.
Barack Obama. Born in Hawaii, to an American mother and an African father. Obviously he’s not American, where’s his birth certificate.


I know of another person Donald Trump can attack for not being 100% certain of their citizenship status. This person may be running in an election later this year. It’s because his mother was born overseas, Scotland in fact, and didn’t emigrate to the United States until the age of 18. She wasn’t a particularly intelligent person, an unskilled worker. Two of her children, older siblings to this candidate, were born of this woman before she became a naturalised US citizen. It is said she still spoke Scottish Gaelic when she would converse with her family in Scotland, refusing to speak English 100% of the time as a US citizen.

Obviously Donald we can’t be sure of this candidate‘s loyalty to America, so better call for him to not run in the election.....
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13284
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:52 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Number6 wrote:
The answer of ‘how is trumps question racist?’ Is easy. Here’s two examples.

Sen. John McCain. Born in Panama, Outside the US. Ran for the officers president against Barack Obama. Calls to view McCain ‘s birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.
Ted Cruz. - Born Alberta, Canada to an American mother and a Canadian father. Calls to see his birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.

Both those guys are white and republicans.

Kamala Harris. - Born Oakland, California, to an Indian mother and a British Jamaican Father. Hmmmm need to look into her status. What if........ and so on.
Barack Obama. Born in Hawaii, to an American mother and an African father. Obviously he’s not American, where’s his birth certificate.


I know of another person Donald Trump can attack for not being 100% certain of their citizenship status. This person may be running in an election later this year. It’s because his mother was born overseas, Scotland in fact, and didn’t emigrate to the United States until the age of 18. She wasn’t a particularly intelligent person, an unskilled worker. Two of her children, older siblings to this candidate, were born of this woman before she became a naturalised US citizen. It is said she still spoke Scottish Gaelic when she would converse with her family in Scotland, refusing to speak English 100% of the time as a US citizen.

Obviously Donald we can’t be sure of this candidate‘s loyalty to America, so better call for him to not run in the election.....


and she lied about her US citizenship on the census form before she was one....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
art
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:48 am

tommy1808 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
I know of another person Donald Trump can attack for not being 100% certain of their citizenship status. This person may be running in an election later this year. It’s because his mother was born overseas, Scotland in fact, and didn’t emigrate to the United States until the age of 18. She wasn’t a particularly intelligent person, an unskilled worker. Two of her children, older siblings to this candidate, were born of this woman before she became a naturalised US citizen. It is said she still spoke Scottish Gaelic when she would converse with her family in Scotland, refusing to speak English 100% of the time as a US citizen.


and she lied about her US citizenship on the census form before she was one....

best regards
Thomas


Good on her doing her bit to keep her mother tongue alive.

Come to think of it, at least one of her sons has very limited English. Perhaps his mother only spoke Gaelic to him at home so he started learning English much later than most children do. That would account for his miniscule vocabulary when speaking English, would it not?
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:51 pm

Number6 wrote:
The answer of ‘how is trumps question racist?’ Is easy. Here’s two examples.

Sen. John McCain. Born in Panama, Outside the US. Ran for the officers president against Barack Obama. Calls to view McCain ‘s birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.
Ted Cruz. - Born Alberta, Canada to an American mother and a Canadian father. Calls to see his birth certificate and question his citizenship - none.

Both those guys are white and republicans.

Kamala Harris. - Born Oakland, California, to an Indian mother and a British Jamaican Father. Hmmmm need to look into her status. What if........ and so on.
Barack Obama. Born in Hawaii, to an American mother and an African father. Obviously he’s not American, where’s his birth certificate.

Both these examples are black/minority background people. However, they found and still find themselves under scrutiny over whether they’re really ‘legally’ American. If all of the people above had been treated the same, then no, it’s not racist, but since the only people attracting attention are conspicuously not white, have ‘foreign’ sounding names and foreign parents, then the motivation is clear. We just don’t like admitting it.

As above, the 14th amendment is clear. If you’re born on American soil, you’re a citizen. End of.


It boils down to simply attacking the opposition. All parties do it to the other party, one way or another. But now, the race card is pulled. No one's buying that. It's political contest. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!!
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Tugger
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:01 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
It boils down to simply attacking the opposition. All parties do it to the other party, one way or another. But now, the race card is pulled. No one's buying that. It's political contest. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!!

But you're OK with the race card being pulled? All's fair in love, war, and politics?
Well OK, but then as your say you need to be able to take the heat when it's thrown back at you for going there.

Tugg
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Sokes
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:36 pm

Obama is a good contradiction to my hypothesis.
IIRC he was in the Philippines during childhood?
But he does fit.
I guess my son would also fit into Germany. He has mostly my ways, few Indian ways.
Probably parents are more important than place of birth.
Of course anybody raised in a liberal society will more or less fit in another liberal society.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
FGITD
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Re: Birtherism is back!

Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:28 pm

But that's why the rule exists in its form. Who exactly is going to be the judge of "how American" someone is to determine if they qualify?

It's a bunch of jingoistic, nationalist BS. If you have American citizenship, you're every bit of a citizen as someone else with American citizenship.

It's interesting to see which individuals the question of "are they really American though?" comes up with. I'm seeing a little bit of a pattern...

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