A german student in Norway got tired of german jukes in Norway and has now got 10000 NOK aroung 1000 euro in compensation.

https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/W ... sk-student

The University of Bergen pays compensation to German students
A German student who felt violated and harassed by a professor's German joke, receives NOK 10,000 in compensation from the University of Bergen.

In addition, the university will cover the student's legal expenses, says dean Bente Wold at the Faculty of Psychology to Khrono .

The situation where the student felt harassed arose during a lecture in August last year. Professor Svein Larsen is said to have mentioned his own research on tourism and stated that "the Germans have been here before, and now they are sneaking in again".

- I experienced it as if the intention was to degrade me personally and as a student, as well as to bring out the professor's opinion that there were too many Germans at the faculty, the student told Bergensavisen on Saturday.

According to a report from a meeting between Wold, faculty director Ørnulf Lillestøl, the student and the person's lawyer Birthe Eriksen on 21 July, the faculty regrets that the notification case has had consequences for the student.

"It is very important to learn from this process and even better to ensure that it is not perceived or perceived as a burden to notify future students and employees," the minutes state.

Professor Svein Larsen himself has told the same newspaper that he does not understand the criticism. He emphasizes that he does not think there are too many Germans at the university.

- If I really thought there were too many Germans here, do you think I would say it openly? No, this is not connected, Larsen said on Saturday

How utterly ridiculous.

If I were the student, I would probably think that he is talking about WW2.

bennett123 wrote:

If I were the student, I would probably think that he is talking about WW2.

No shit Tatort.

So was the comment appropriate.

A German in Norway

By the way Norwegian history writing about WW II is sort of complicated. Until 1943 the upper class was very pro german in Sweden, Norway and Denmark as general.

Denmark and Norway had thousands (6000 and 15 000) young men enlisting for Waffen SS / Wehrmacht and they took part of some of the biggest battles during WW II. Actually more Norwegians were fighting for Germany then Allied forces(15000 vs 11000)

From 1944 everyone in the 3 countries was of course only pro Allies.

After WWII there was something left... All the children created in Norwegian / german relationships. The most famous is
"ABBA Agne-Frid" Lyngstad. Her father was german officer. She expressed that the bad treatment "German childs" Tyske barn went thru in Norway her mother moved to Sweden after the war. But noone as I know in Norway or Norwegian news has talked about that the ABBA is actually a Swedish Norwegian group.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARCgAQ
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARCfAQ

http://www.nuav.net/volunter.html

”Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!”

Dangerous stuff

The correct number on the allied side is around 45 000, in addition comes local resistance clocking in at around 30-4000 in organized resistance work.

As in the SARS2-CoV19-thread, you tend to cherrypick your numbers a bit, Olle.

This is a pretty good(short) watch on the most important Norwegian contribution in WW2:

https://youtu.be/db1u5fdIegY

olle wrote:

A German in Norway ;-)

By the way Norwegian history writing about WW II is sort of complicated. Until 1943 the upper class was very pro german in Sweden, Norway and Denmark as general.

Denmark and Norway had thousands (6000 and 15 000) young men enlisting for Waffen SS / Wehrmacht and they took part of some of the biggest battles during WW II. Actually more Norwegians were fighting for Germany then Allied forces(15000 vs 11000)

From 1944 everyone in the 3 countries was of course only pro Allies.

After WWII there was something left... All the children created in Norwegian / german relationships. The most famous is
"ABBA Agne-Frid" Lyngstad. Her father was german officer. She expressed that the bad treatment "German childs" Tyske barn went thru in Norway her mother moved to Sweden after the war. But noone as I know in Norway or Norwegian news has talked about that the ABBA is actually a Swedish Norwegian group.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARCgAQ
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARCfAQ

http://www.nuav.net/volunter.html

M564038 wrote:

The correct number on the allied side is around 45 000, in addition comes local resistance clocking in at around 30-4000 in organized resistance work.

As in the SARS2-CoV19-thread, you tend to cherrypick your numbers a bit, Olle.

This is a pretty good(short) watch on the most important Norwegian contribution in WW2:

https://youtu.be/db1u5fdIegY

olle wrote:

A German in Norway

By the way Norwegian history writing about WW II is sort of complicated. Until 1943 the upper class was very pro german in Sweden, Norway and Denmark as general.

Denmark and Norway had thousands (6000 and 15 000) young men enlisting for Waffen SS / Wehrmacht and they took part of some of the biggest battles during WW II. Actually more Norwegians were fighting for Germany then Allied forces(15000 vs 11000)

From 1944 everyone in the 3 countries was of course only pro Allies.

After WWII there was something left... All the children created in Norwegian / german relationships. The most famous is
"ABBA Agne-Frid" Lyngstad. Her father was german officer. She expressed that the bad treatment "German childs" Tyske barn went thru in Norway her mother moved to Sweden after the war. But noone as I know in Norway or Norwegian news has talked about that the ABBA is actually a Swedish Norwegian group.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARCgAQ
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARCfAQ

http://www.nuav.net/volunter.html

Is that number including merchant shipping or fighting forces? How many joined before or after Stalingrad? As i remember the biggest norwegian fighting force was the finnmark fighting with norwegian police forces..

There is actually one very interesting danish movie right now regarding this subject. I forgot the name.

Sources is complicated both for covid and scandinavia during ww II

Regarding ww II at least in sweden archives start to be more open and a quit public discussion going on.

Regarding covid i think both sweden and norway give us surprises right now.

I have been trying to learn more about Scandinavia during ww Ii and special the non official history that none of our countries are very proud over. So i would be very greatful for more information.

And now the professor wonders how the Germans became so sensitive in only 80 years.

Yes. That is included merchant shipping.
They where more shot at than most soldiers, and their contribution where certainly something to reckon with. That effort alone made Norway punch above it’s weight in WWII.

There is still much to be found in archives.
I strangely found my grandfather’s original arrest card and photo from 1943 only yesterday. He spent 2 years in a KZ-camp for resistance work. He was supposedly caught in the (sabotage)act, but not shot because he had a german sounding name.

If his effort was of any use, we don’t know, probably not much, really. But when he died, my grandmother was offered support by all kinds of informal old-boys networks in high places. There was lots of that, and that generation was really powerful way into the 90’s. They wrote the history, and the local resistance was the upper echelon of heroism in that writing. The merchant mariners where left out of the initial post-war history writing. A huge shame. They did the heavy lifiting, and most died poor in a pool of ptsd and alcohol.

M564038 wrote:

The correct number on the allied side is around 45 000, in addition comes local resistance clocking in at around 30-4000 in organized resistance work.

As in the SARS2-CoV19-thread, you tend to cherrypick your numbers a bit, Olle.

This is a pretty good(short) watch on the most important Norwegian contribution in WW2:

https://youtu.be/db1u5fdIegY

olle wrote:

A German in Norway

By the way Norwegian history writing about WW II is sort of complicated. Until 1943 the upper class was very pro german in Sweden, Norway and Denmark as general.

Denmark and Norway had thousands (6000 and 15 000) young men enlisting for Waffen SS / Wehrmacht and they took part of some of the biggest battles during WW II. Actually more Norwegians were fighting for Germany then Allied forces(15000 vs 11000)

From 1944 everyone in the 3 countries was of course only pro Allies.

After WWII there was something left... All the children created in Norwegian / german relationships. The most famous is
"ABBA Agne-Frid" Lyngstad. Her father was german officer. She expressed that the bad treatment "German childs" Tyske barn went thru in Norway her mother moved to Sweden after the war. But noone as I know in Norway or Norwegian news has talked about that the ABBA is actually a Swedish Norwegian group.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARCgAQ
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARCfAQ

http://www.nuav.net/volunter.html

Regarding sourses I would like to know what kind of sources you dislike. Most of the sources you seems to dislike is swedish newspapers presenting the view of what is happening in for example sweden or other international news most brittish. If the source in the brittish news is express i slways double check that for example guardrian back it up.

If something is my oppinion or it is sources i cannot mention i present this.

You might think that i smoke tegnell or how it was thevexpression was. But for example who request mouth protection at the moment and all scandinavia has said no until a few days ago denmark changed its mind. So it is not only sweden not follow who. I think the comparation is very interesting both methods and how the countries reacts to threats.

Thread drift, but the reason we start with masks now, is for people to take busses/subway even if 1 meter distance can not be guaranteed at rush hour for capacity reasons, at the same time that there is some unsourced infections going around. In march, or since, that was not the case.
There has not really been a change in policy, but the circumstances are different.
People are still told the primary precautions are distance, staying at the home office, and washing hands often, and that masks do more harm than good if one is able to keep distance and the infection rate is low.

olle wrote:

M564038 wrote:

The correct number on the allied side is around 45 000, in addition comes local resistance clocking in at around 30-4000 in organized resistance work.

As in the SARS2-CoV19-thread, you tend to cherrypick your numbers a bit, Olle.

This is a pretty good(short) watch on the most important Norwegian contribution in WW2:

https://youtu.be/db1u5fdIegY

olle wrote:

A German in Norway ;-)

By the way Norwegian history writing about WW II is sort of complicated. Until 1943 the upper class was very pro german in Sweden, Norway and Denmark as general.

Denmark and Norway had thousands (6000 and 15 000) young men enlisting for Waffen SS / Wehrmacht and they took part of some of the biggest battles during WW II. Actually more Norwegians were fighting for Germany then Allied forces(15000 vs 11000)

From 1944 everyone in the 3 countries was of course only pro Allies.

After WWII there was something left... All the children created in Norwegian / german relationships. The most famous is
"ABBA Agne-Frid" Lyngstad. Her father was german officer. She expressed that the bad treatment "German childs" Tyske barn went thru in Norway her mother moved to Sweden after the war. But noone as I know in Norway or Norwegian news has talked about that the ABBA is actually a Swedish Norwegian group.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARCgAQ
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARCfAQ

http://www.nuav.net/volunter.html

Regarding sourses I would like to know what kind of sources you dislike. Most of the sources you seems to dislike is swedish newspapers presenting the view of what is happening in for example sweden or other international news most brittish. If the source in the brittish news is express i slways double check that for example guardrian back it up.

If something is my oppinion or it is sources i cannot mention i present this.

You might think that i smoke tegnell or how it was thevexpression was. But for example who request mouth protection at the moment and all scandinavia has said no until a few days ago denmark changed its mind. So it is not only sweden not follow who. I think the comparation is very interesting both methods and how the countries reacts to threats.

This is the movie I forgot the name on;

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8948132/

De forbandede år

Anyways, it turns out the case was not even judged worthy of consideration by the university, but he got compensated for the fact that the case leaked, and the student (without name) ridiculed in the press for something that should have been completely between the student and the university. Especially since they didn’t even do anything about his complaint.

A clear breach of gdpr etc.

M564038 wrote:

Yes. That is included merchant shipping.
They where more shot at than most soldiers, and their contribution where certainly something to reckon with. That effort alone made Norway punch above it’s weight in WWII.

There is still much to be found in archives.
I strangely found my grandfather’s original arrest card and photo from 1943 only yesterday. He spent 2 years in a KZ-camp for resistance work. He was supposedly caught in the (sabotage)act, but not shot because he had a german sounding name.

If his effort was of any use, we don’t know, probably not much, really. But when he died, my grandmother was offered support by all kinds of informal old-boys networks in high places. There was lots of that, and that generation was really powerful way into the 90’s. They wrote the history, and the local resistance was the upper echelon of heroism in that writing. The merchant mariners where left out of the initial post-war history writing. A huge shame. They did the heavy lifiting, and most died poor in a pool of ptsd and alcohol.

I totally agree with you about this... The Merchant shipping crews special going to Soviet union was often on suicide missions or close to.

My point is that in special this period Scandinavia in general was in a very special and complicated situation. We had Stalin Soviet, Nazi Germany and a UK that stood by itself after western Europe had been invaded by Nazi troops and esatern Europe of both Soviet troops and Nazi troops.

For many the option between 1941 to 1943 was not so obvious. Yes The Allied had UK and USA, but also a Soviet that had invaded Finland, Baltic states and Poland a short period before. Finland was actually also fighting for its life from 1939 to 1944 with actually UK allied Soviet as aggressor.

I had also an onkel who was in Danish resistance and escaped to Sweden in 1943 and avoided NZ camp or death squad after a number of attacks. He met my fathers cousin in a training camp in Sweden to prepare for the invasion of Denmark that never had to happen and she was serving food I suppose before they married short after the war.

But he told me a few things that I do not know is totally true but seems to be pretty much in line with what is starting to show up.

From 1940 to 1941 the communist had order from Stalin more or less to support the German invasion. In 1941 that changed to active resistance.

He also sad that in Denmark the period 1940 to around 1943 the farmers and industry made huge money on exporting to Germany while sending quit a few young men to fight on special the eastern front in elite units like Division Wiking. It was not before 1943 Germany really occupied Denmark in force. The resistance people like him was not very popular in 1942 at least not in Denmark.

I suppose that the Norwegian industry worked for German government as well.

I would like to remind that Germans was the first ones in NZ camps. Most people in NZ camps from 1933 to 1940 was Germans and the first gas chamber victims was Germans.

So we shall not consider things so simple as it is easy to do. I have very much respect for the period. Was it correct to support a Soviet using Norwegian merchant shipping? A soviet that was about to keep Eastern Europe occupied until 1989 and we can say part of Finland even today?

Soviet was an allied for killing Germans. But we shall also not like we have an tendency to avoid talking about the young boys from Norway, Denmark, a few from Sweden, France etc that went fighting for Germany what they thought defending Europe from Stalin until the very end on the streets of Berlin 1945 after the German troops often had given up.

So for coming back to subject this young student coming to Norway, his government paying for him, and his university tells him this. If I was the parent I would bring him to another university outside Norway special while we do not know if his family was also in NZ camps or supported the Nazi regime.

Yes the usual story from those that went fighting for the germans is they wanted to fight the soviets, and that there was a threat from within supporting the soviets. And also that they didn’t know how bad the germans were.

I do not believe those stories to be true. They where self-serving revisionism.
At least in Norway, the social democrats that were in power at the time, had long since denounced communism, and in reality the whole political spectrum of any power, from left to right, were strongly opposed to Soviet influence.

In fact-books from the time, from the big publishing houses, called things like «The world today» from 1937 etc. The true nature of the german regime, including the threats of Jew extermination was clearly spelled out. It was, contrary to what many believe, common and accepted knowledge. Everyone knew what the german rhetoric meant.

There was no exuse for joining the german side.

olle wrote:

M564038 wrote:

Yes. That is included merchant shipping.
They where more shot at than most soldiers, and their contribution where certainly something to reckon with. That effort alone made Norway punch above it’s weight in WWII.

There is still much to be found in archives.
I strangely found my grandfather’s original arrest card and photo from 1943 only yesterday. He spent 2 years in a KZ-camp for resistance work. He was supposedly caught in the (sabotage)act, but not shot because he had a german sounding name.

If his effort was of any use, we don’t know, probably not much, really. But when he died, my grandmother was offered support by all kinds of informal old-boys networks in high places. There was lots of that, and that generation was really powerful way into the 90’s. They wrote the history, and the local resistance was the upper echelon of heroism in that writing. The merchant mariners where left out of the initial post-war history writing. A huge shame. They did the heavy lifiting, and most died poor in a pool of ptsd and alcohol.

I totally agree with you about this... The Merchant shipping crews special going to Soviet union was often on suicide missions or close to.

My point is that in special this period Scandinavia in general was in a very special and complicated situation. We had Stalin Soviet, Nazi Germany and a UK that stood by itself after western Europe had been invaded by Nazi troops and esatern Europe of both Soviet troops and Nazi troops.

For many the option between 1941 to 1943 was not so obvious. Yes The Allied had UK and USA, but also a Soviet that had invaded Finland, Baltic states and Poland a short period before. Finland was actually also fighting for its life from 1939 to 1944 with actually UK allied Soviet as aggressor.

I had also an onkel who was in Danish resistance and escaped to Sweden in 1943 and avoided NZ camp or death squad after a number of attacks. He met my fathers cousin in a training camp in Sweden to prepare for the invasion of Denmark that never had to happen and she was serving food I suppose before they married short after the war.

But he told me a few things that I do not know is totally true but seems to be pretty much in line with what is starting to show up.

From 1940 to 1941 the communist had order from Stalin more or less to support the German invasion. In 1941 that changed to active resistance.

He also sad that in Denmark the period 1940 to around 1943 the farmers and industry made huge money on exporting to Germany while sending quit a few young men to fight on special the eastern front in elite units like Division Wiking. It was not before 1943 Germany really occupied Denmark in force. The resistance people like him was not very popular in 1942 at least not in Denmark.

I suppose that the Norwegian industry worked for German government as well.

I would like to remind that Germans was the first ones in NZ camps. Most people in NZ camps from 1933 to 1940 was Germans and the first gas chamber victims was Germans.

So we shall not consider things so simple as it is easy to do. I have very much respect for the period. Was it correct to support a Soviet using Norwegian merchant shipping? A soviet that was about to keep Eastern Europe occupied until 1989 and we can say part of Finland even today?

Soviet was an allied for killing Germans. But we shall also not like we have an tendency to avoid talking about the young boys from Norway, Denmark, a few from Sweden, France etc that went fighting for Germany what they thought defending Europe from Stalin.

So for coming back to subject this young student coming to Norway, his government paying for him, and his university tells him this. If I was the parent I would bring him to another university outside Norway special while we do not know if his family was also in NZ camps or supported the Nazi regime.

olle wrote:

M564038 wrote:

Yes. That is included merchant shipping.
They where more shot at than most soldiers, and their contribution where certainly something to reckon with. That effort alone made Norway punch above it’s weight in WWII.

I totally agree with you about this... The Merchant shipping crews special going to Soviet union was often on suicide missions or close to.

There will be many people reading this thread who have absolutely no knowledge of what you are referring to.
Perhaps some background is in order?

By the end of 1938, some 7% of world tonnage was Norwegian, and Norway was the fourth-largest shipping nation, behind the UK, the US and Japan.

Their fleet was predominantly newer than that of other nations, with 62% powered by diesel motors.

These included modern tankers, making up 18% of the world tanker tonnage at that time.

Then WWII arrived.

With the German invasion of Norway, the question of control of the Norwegian merchant fleet became critical.
Around 15% of the total fleet was within the German-controlled area and was lost to the Allies.

The Germans and their Norwegian collaborator, Vidkun Quisling, radioed to Norwegian vessels to sail for German-controlled waters, but mostly the Norwegian masters ignored the orders.

The Norwegian Shipping and Trade Mission (Nortraship) was established in London in April 1940 to administer the Norwegian merchant fleet outside German-controlled areas. Nortraship operated some 1,000 vessels and thus became the largest shipping company in the world.

There is a broad claim that 706 ships were lost to enemy action.

Of a total of about 30,000 Norwegian seamen, around 3,650 lost their lives as a result of the war at sea.

As for the convoys delivering aid to Russia. These often ran from Reykjavik (Iceland) to Archangel or Murmansk.
And the "suicidal losses" are probably a reference to the awful disaster that was convoy PQ17.
PQ17; Of the forty-one ships which left Iceland, three were forced to return, and twenty-four were sunk (14 American, 8 British, 1 Dutch, 1 Panamanian)

However, looking at the order of battle, I cannot even find one single Norwegian ship taking part in that operation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_ ... nvoy_PQ_17

Elsewhere I found these more general numbers.
2000 Norwegians were lost in battle on land and at sea, at home and abroad, including 312 pilots.
1799 civilians were killed as a result of war related incidents.
3638 merchant mariners were lost.
2153 people in the underground movement died (366 executed in Norway, 162 died in "home front" related activities, 92 died while trying to escape to England, 130 died in imprisonment in Norway)
1400 women and men died in imprisonment in Germany,

Thx to wikipedia (Nortraship, Arctic Convoys of WWII, PQ17 etc), & also https://warsailors.com/freefleet/shipstats.html

p.s. I'm not Norwegian, so if I have got anything wrong, my apologies.

Guess he's gotta live up the German stereotype. Face it, we've got no sense of humour

I was to polite to mention it, but now that you..... :-)

ACDC8 wrote:

Guess he's gotta live up the German stereotype. Face it, we've got no sense of humour :rotfl:

I was to polite to mention it, but now that you..... :-)

ACDC8 wrote:

Guess he's gotta live up the German stereotype. Face it, we've got no sense of humour :rotfl:

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

olle wrote:

M564038 wrote:

Yes. That is included merchant shipping.
They where more shot at than most soldiers, and their contribution where certainly something to reckon with. That effort alone made Norway punch above it’s weight in WWII.

I totally agree with you about this... The Merchant shipping crews special going to Soviet union was often on suicide missions or close to.

There will be many people reading this thread who have absolutely no knowledge of what you are referring to.
Perhaps some background is in order?

By the end of 1938, some 7% of world tonnage was Norwegian, and Norway was the fourth-largest shipping nation, behind the UK, the US and Japan.

Their fleet was predominantly newer than that of other nations, with 62% powered by diesel motors.

These included modern tankers, making up 18% of the world tanker tonnage at that time.

Then WWII arrived.

With the German invasion of Norway, the question of control of the Norwegian merchant fleet became critical.
Around 15% of the total fleet was within the German-controlled area and was lost to the Allies.

The Germans and their Norwegian collaborator, Vidkun Quisling, radioed to Norwegian vessels to sail for German-controlled waters, but mostly the Norwegian masters ignored the orders.

The Norwegian Shipping and Trade Mission (Nortraship) was established in London in April 1940 to administer the Norwegian merchant fleet outside German-controlled areas. Nortraship operated some 1,000 vessels and thus became the largest shipping company in the world.

There is a broad claim that 706 ships were lost to enemy action.

Of a total of about 30,000 Norwegian seamen, around 3,650 lost their lives as a result of the war at sea.

As for the convoys delivering aid to Russia. These often ran from Reykjavik (Iceland) to Archangel or Murmansk.
And the "suicidal losses" are probably a reference to the awful disaster that was convoy PQ17.
PQ17; Of the forty-one ships which left Iceland, three were forced to return, and twenty-four were sunk (14 American, 8 British, 1 Dutch, 1 Panamanian)

However, looking at the order of battle, I cannot even find one single Norwegian ship taking part in that operation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_ ... nvoy_PQ_17

Elsewhere I found these more general numbers.
2000 Norwegians were lost in battle on land and at sea, at home and abroad, including 312 pilots.
1799 civilians were killed as a result of war related incidents.
3638 merchant mariners were lost.
2153 people in the underground movement died (366 executed in Norway, 162 died in "home front" related activities, 92 died while trying to escape to England, 130 died in imprisonment in Norway)
1400 women and men died in imprisonment in Germany,

Thx to wikipedia (Nortraship, Arctic Convoys of WWII, PQ17 etc), & also https://warsailors.com/freefleet/shipstats.html

p.s. I'm not Norwegian, so if I have got anything wrong, my apologies.

The British politician Philip Noel-Baker, Baron Noel-Baker, commented after the war,"The first great defeat for Hitler was the battle of Britain. It was a turning point in history. If we had not had the Norwegian fleet of tankers on our side, we should not have had the aviation spirit to put our Hawker Hurricanes and our Spitfires into the sky. Without the Norwegian merchant fleet, Britain and the allies would have lost the war".[

Here is by the way an English article about Norway official apologizes to the "Tysk barn" or German Children;

As mentioned ABBA member Anne-Frid Lyngstad ended up in Sweden.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45893490
The women who had relationships with the soldiers became known by the nickname the "German Girls", and were targeted for reprisals in Norway when the war ended - standing accused of betraying the country.

Punishments included being deprived of civil rights, detained or expelled from the country to Germany along with their children.

Mortyman wrote:

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

olle wrote:

I totally agree with you about this... The Merchant shipping crews special going to Soviet union was often on suicide missions or close to.

There will be many people reading this thread who have absolutely no knowledge of what you are referring to.
Perhaps some background is in order?

By the end of 1938, some 7% of world tonnage was Norwegian, and Norway was the fourth-largest shipping nation, behind the UK, the US and Japan.

Their fleet was predominantly newer than that of other nations, with 62% powered by diesel motors.

These included modern tankers, making up 18% of the world tanker tonnage at that time.

Then WWII arrived.

With the German invasion of Norway, the question of control of the Norwegian merchant fleet became critical.
Around 15% of the total fleet was within the German-controlled area and was lost to the Allies.

The Germans and their Norwegian collaborator, Vidkun Quisling, radioed to Norwegian vessels to sail for German-controlled waters, but mostly the Norwegian masters ignored the orders.

The Norwegian Shipping and Trade Mission (Nortraship) was established in London in April 1940 to administer the Norwegian merchant fleet outside German-controlled areas. Nortraship operated some 1,000 vessels and thus became the largest shipping company in the world.

There is a broad claim that 706 ships were lost to enemy action.

Of a total of about 30,000 Norwegian seamen, around 3,650 lost their lives as a result of the war at sea.

As for the convoys delivering aid to Russia. These often ran from Reykjavik (Iceland) to Archangel or Murmansk.
And the "suicidal losses" are probably a reference to the awful disaster that was convoy PQ17.
PQ17; Of the forty-one ships which left Iceland, three were forced to return, and twenty-four were sunk (14 American, 8 British, 1 Dutch, 1 Panamanian)

However, looking at the order of battle, I cannot even find one single Norwegian ship taking part in that operation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_ ... nvoy_PQ_17

Elsewhere I found these more general numbers.
2000 Norwegians were lost in battle on land and at sea, at home and abroad, including 312 pilots.
1799 civilians were killed as a result of war related incidents.
3638 merchant mariners were lost.
2153 people in the underground movement died (366 executed in Norway, 162 died in "home front" related activities, 92 died while trying to escape to England, 130 died in imprisonment in Norway)
1400 women and men died in imprisonment in Germany,

Thx to wikipedia (Nortraship, Arctic Convoys of WWII, PQ17 etc), & also https://warsailors.com/freefleet/shipstats.html

p.s. I'm not Norwegian, so if I have got anything wrong, my apologies.

The British politician Philip Noel-Baker, Baron Noel-Baker, commented after the war,"The first great defeat for Hitler was the battle of Britain. It was a turning point in history. If we had not had the Norwegian fleet of tankers on our side, we should not have had the aviation spirit to put our Hawker Hurricanes and our Spitfires into the sky. Without the Norwegian merchant fleet, Britain and the allies would have lost the war".[

To be mentioned during the period Norway had a very big Merchant fleet. But Sweden and Denmark had too. Who took control of the Danish merchant fleet?

A few more referenses;

Finnmark operation.

Finnmark was liberated before the surrender of german trops in Norway using the "polis" troops that was planned for the invasion of norway and denmark 1945 if Germany did not surrender.

My onkel was supposed to take part of the invasion of denmark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Brigade_in_Sweden

M564038 wrote:

Yes. That is included merchant shipping.
They where more shot at than most soldiers, and their contribution where certainly something to reckon with. That effort alone made Norway punch above it’s weight in WWII.

There is still much to be found in archives.
I strangely found my grandfather’s original arrest card and photo from 1943 only yesterday. He spent 2 years in a KZ-camp for resistance work. He was supposedly caught in the (sabotage)act, but not shot because he had a german sounding name.

If his effort was of any use, we don’t know, probably not much, really. But when he died, my grandmother was offered support by all kinds of informal old-boys networks in high places. There was lots of that, and that generation was really powerful way into the 90’s. They wrote the history, and the local resistance was the upper echelon of heroism in that writing. The merchant mariners where left out of the initial post-war history writing. A huge shame. They did the heavy lifiting, and most died poor in a pool of ptsd and alcohol.

The way Norwegians treated women who has relations with Germans and the children of those relationships was truly vile, children were locked up in asylums, girls were sterilized, many were shunned from society and couldn't hold down jobs. Most of the women and children were rounded up after the war and put into camps, ironically the men guarding the camps were often former Norwegians who had served with the Waffen SS. For a nation who most people expect to do the right thing they really didn't after WW2. I also find the Kings actions quite cowardly, instead of staying with his people like his brother did in Denmark he cut and ran as fast as he could. I cannot understand why the monarchy wasn't deposed after WW2. The town I live in was flattened in WW2 because the king escaped to it, him and his son stood under a tree and watched the Germans destroy Molde.

We actually should mention that in 1939 1940 i guess whole scandinavia were extremly anti soviet. Special in sweden the soviet invasion of Finland created a inti soviet oppinion and sweden actually had a goverment crisis brcause ministers wanter to declare soviet war and fully enter on finland side.

But sweden had an extreme anti nazi, anti communist and special anti war while had been a war covering journslist during ww I prime minister.

But anyway sweden did not official enter but arms and close 8200 volonteers entered finland.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mannerh ... &ie=UTF-8#

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foreig ... 9.amp.html

Lawsuits and discussions like this is a sign that society is becoming too rich. Humans have completely lost touch with reality if they spend their time pursuing and addressing complaints such as this. And if humans have lost touch with reality, that's very dangerous.

The human brain has a limited capacity. If it is being occupied by meaningless shit like this, it means more important issues are being ignored.

I can only imagine Basil Fawlty's Norwegian cousin has gone bankrupt and his Bed & Breakfast is now owned by a nice German couple.

The complaint wasn’t pursued.
The (small) compensation awarded was because the university broke their obligation to keep complaints from students towards teachers safe and secret.

LCDFlight wrote:

Lawsuits and discussions like this is a sign that society is becoming too rich. Humans have completely lost touch with reality if they spend their time pursuing and addressing complaints such as this. And if humans have lost touch with reality, that's very dangerous.

The human brain has a limited capacity. If it is being occupied by meaningless shit like this, it means more important issues are being ignored.

M564038 wrote:

In fact-books from the time, from the big publishing houses, called things like «The world today» from 1937 etc. The true nature of the german regime, including the threats of Jew extermination was clearly spelled out. It was, contrary to what many believe, common and accepted knowledge. Everyone knew what the german rhetoric meant.

There was no exuse for joining the german side.

I doubt that, especially about 1937.
Even if people heard stories, they would not have believed.
There is a book "Falsehood in war times" about all the propaganda lies in WW1. My favorite story is how Germans would hang priests upside down in a bell and use them as bell clapper. If I'm not mistaken the inspiration for the "Iraqi soldiers take babies in Kuwait out of incubators" story is also from this book, without incubators of course.
People were told so much bullshit in WW1, they would not have believed any stories of extraordinary cruelties.

When the Jews were rounded up they thought that they will be sent to Madagascar. You may read yourself about the "Madagascar Plan".

" The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. "
Edmund Burke

I believe it started with shooting of a few civilians or prisoners of war.
2700 men in "Einsatzgruppen" started by killing 200 people a day in the first week of the invasion of Poland. The numbers soon increased.
No soldiers objected by throwing grenades in officers' mess. And officers didn't object the killing commandos operating outside Wehrmacht. Instead they gave logistical support as ordered.
Sadists learnt they can do what they want which suited the political leadership. But gas chambers started only by 1942. I believe there was no plan in advance. It was a positive feedback loop.

agill wrote:

”Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!”

Dangerous stuff

Joke warfare is back!

Sokes wrote:

M564038 wrote:

In fact-books from the time, from the big publishing houses, called things like «The world today» from 1937 etc. The true nature of the german regime, including the threats of Jew extermination was clearly spelled out. It was, contrary to what many believe, common and accepted knowledge. Everyone knew what the german rhetoric meant.

There was no exuse for joining the german side.

I doubt that, especially about 1937.
Even if people heard stories, they would not have believed.
There is a book "Falsehood in war times" about all the propaganda lies in WW1. My favorite story is how Germans would hang priests upside down in a bell and use them as bell clapper. If I'm not mistaken the inspiration for the "Iraqi soldiers take babies in Kuwait out of incubators" story is also from this book, without incubators of course.
People were told so much bullshit in WW1, they would not have believed any stories of extraordinary cruelties.

When the Jews were rounded up they thought that they will be sent to Madagascar. You may read yourself about the "Madagascar Plan".

" The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. "
Edmund Burke

I believe it started with shooting of a few civilians or prisoners of war.
2700 men in "Einsatzgruppen" started by killing 200 people a day in the first week of the invasion of Poland. The numbers soon increased.
No soldiers objected by throwing grenades in officers' mess. And officers didn't object the killing commandos operating outside Wehrmacht. Instead they gave logistical support as ordered.
Sadists learnt they can do what they want which suited the political leadership. But gas chambers started only by 1942. I believe there was no plan in advance. It was a positive feedback loop.

I would like to remind that most scandinavian jews survived the war. Norwegian jews escaped around 50% to sweden. The rest the swedish government worked to get them to sweden the rest of the war.. Finnish jews stayed in Finland.

Danish jews was thanks to the warning from norway saved in a spectacular action that is still an example for all of us. I am very proud my onkel took part of this.

Folke bernadotte and the white busses got most norwegian jews into safety.

olle wrote:

Mortyman wrote:

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

There will be many people reading this thread who have absolutely no knowledge of what you are referring to.
Perhaps some background is in order?

By the end of 1938, some 7% of world tonnage was Norwegian, and Norway was the fourth-largest shipping nation, behind the UK, the US and Japan.

Their fleet was predominantly newer than that of other nations, with 62% powered by diesel motors.

These included modern tankers, making up 18% of the world tanker tonnage at that time.

Then WWII arrived.

With the German invasion of Norway, the question of control of the Norwegian merchant fleet became critical.
Around 15% of the total fleet was within the German-controlled area and was lost to the Allies.

The Germans and their Norwegian collaborator, Vidkun Quisling, radioed to Norwegian vessels to sail for German-controlled waters, but mostly the Norwegian masters ignored the orders.

The Norwegian Shipping and Trade Mission (Nortraship) was established in London in April 1940 to administer the Norwegian merchant fleet outside German-controlled areas. Nortraship operated some 1,000 vessels and thus became the largest shipping company in the world.

There is a broad claim that 706 ships were lost to enemy action.

Of a total of about 30,000 Norwegian seamen, around 3,650 lost their lives as a result of the war at sea.

As for the convoys delivering aid to Russia. These often ran from Reykjavik (Iceland) to Archangel or Murmansk.
And the "suicidal losses" are probably a reference to the awful disaster that was convoy PQ17.
PQ17; Of the forty-one ships which left Iceland, three were forced to return, and twenty-four were sunk (14 American, 8 British, 1 Dutch, 1 Panamanian)

However, looking at the order of battle, I cannot even find one single Norwegian ship taking part in that operation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_ ... nvoy_PQ_17

Elsewhere I found these more general numbers.
2000 Norwegians were lost in battle on land and at sea, at home and abroad, including 312 pilots.
1799 civilians were killed as a result of war related incidents.
3638 merchant mariners were lost.
2153 people in the underground movement died (366 executed in Norway, 162 died in "home front" related activities, 92 died while trying to escape to England, 130 died in imprisonment in Norway)
1400 women and men died in imprisonment in Germany,

Thx to wikipedia (Nortraship, Arctic Convoys of WWII, PQ17 etc), & also https://warsailors.com/freefleet/shipstats.html

p.s. I'm not Norwegian, so if I have got anything wrong, my apologies.

The British politician Philip Noel-Baker, Baron Noel-Baker, commented after the war,"The first great defeat for Hitler was the battle of Britain. It was a turning point in history. If we had not had the Norwegian fleet of tankers on our side, we should not have had the aviation spirit to put our Hawker Hurricanes and our Spitfires into the sky. Without the Norwegian merchant fleet, Britain and the allies would have lost the war".[

To be mentioned during the period Norway had a very big Merchant fleet. But Sweden and Denmark had too. Who took control of the Danish merchant fleet?

'tknowout the Swedish and Danish fleets, but the Norwegian Nortraship operated some 1,000 vessels and was the largest shipping company in the world at the time.

I didn’t pull this out of thin air. I have seen this in writing from before the war. With my own eyes. There where no lack of warning against the Nazi-regime.
Not everyone wanted to hear, but the information was all there. Though the actual plans wasn’t formally put in to place and executed by the germans before well into the war, it was clear what was coming.

Sokes wrote:

M564038 wrote:

In fact-books from the time, from the big publishing houses, called things like «The world today» from 1937 etc. The true nature of the german regime, including the threats of Jew extermination was clearly spelled out. It was, contrary to what many believe, common and accepted knowledge. Everyone knew what the german rhetoric meant.

There was no exuse for joining the german side.

I doubt that, especially about 1937.
Even if people heard stories, they would not have believed.
There is a book "Falsehood in war times" about all the propaganda lies in WW1. My favorite story is how Germans would hang priests upside down in a bell and use them as bell clapper. If I'm not mistaken the inspiration for the "Iraqi soldiers take babies in Kuwait out of incubators" story is also from this book, without incubators of course.
People were told so much bullshit in WW1, they would not have believed any stories of extraordinary cruelties.

When the Jews were rounded up they thought that they will be sent to Madagascar. You may read yourself about the "Madagascar Plan".

" The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. "
Edmund Burke

I believe it started with shooting of a few civilians or prisoners of war.
2700 men in "Einsatzgruppen" started by killing 200 people a day in the first week of the invasion of Poland. The numbers soon increased.
No soldiers objected by throwing grenades in officers' mess. And officers didn't object the killing commandos operating outside Wehrmacht. Instead they gave logistical support as ordered.
Sadists learnt they can do what they want which suited the political leadership. But gas chambers started only by 1942. I believe there was no plan in advance. It was a positive feedback loop.

M564038 wrote:

I didn’t pull this out of thin air. I have seen this in writing from before the war. With my own eyes. There where no lack of warning against the Nazi-regime.
Not everyone wanted to hear, but the information was all there. Though the actual plans wasn’t formally put in to place and executed by the germans before well into the war, it was clear what was coming.

Sokes wrote:

M564038 wrote:

In fact-books from the time, from the big publishing houses, called things like «The world today» from 1937 etc. The true nature of the german regime, including the threats of Jew extermination was clearly spelled out. It was, contrary to what many believe, common and accepted knowledge. Everyone knew what the german rhetoric meant.

There was no exuse for joining the german side.

I doubt that, especially about 1937.
Even if people heard stories, they would not have believed.
There is a book "Falsehood in war times" about all the propaganda lies in WW1. My favorite story is how Germans would hang priests upside down in a bell and use them as bell clapper. If I'm not mistaken the inspiration for the "Iraqi soldiers take babies in Kuwait out of incubators" story is also from this book, without incubators of course.
People were told so much bullshit in WW1, they would not have believed any stories of extraordinary cruelties.

When the Jews were rounded up they thought that they will be sent to Madagascar. You may read yourself about the "Madagascar Plan".

" The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. "
Edmund Burke

I believe it started with shooting of a few civilians or prisoners of war.
2700 men in "Einsatzgruppen" started by killing 200 people a day in the first week of the invasion of Poland. The numbers soon increased.
No soldiers objected by throwing grenades in officers' mess. And officers didn't object the killing commandos operating outside Wehrmacht. Instead they gave logistical support as ordered.
Sadists learnt they can do what they want which suited the political leadership. But gas chambers started only by 1942. I believe there was no plan in advance. It was a positive feedback loop.

I would say that the ribbentrop molotov agreement changed everything.

Suddenly a few western democratic powers in western and north europe stood against a united soviet and nazi facism block. nothing like NATO existed and country after country was taken. the big shock was the fall of France and UK in a few weeks 1940.

The big surprise was the great Finnish army holding out a many times bigger soviet army killing hundred of thousands soviet troops.

UK alliance with Soviet was needed but not popular in Scandinavia.

Himmler seems to have got a bad back.. Much of the white buses activities was enabled by Felix Kersten who did massage on Mr Himmler in combination with mr Schellenberg one of the few Nazi seeing the end getting closer succeeded to sell prisoners to Sweden with money threats and promises.

ACDC8 wrote:

Guess he's gotta live up the German stereotype. Face it, we've got no sense of humour

South Park did an episode about this. I have no idea about the truth behind it since they make fun of just about everything.

M564038 wrote:

I didn’t pull this out of thin air. I have seen this in writing from before the war. With my own eyes. There where no lack of warning against the Nazi-regime.
Not everyone wanted to hear, but the information was all there. Though the actual plans wasn’t formally put in to place and executed by the germans before well into the war, it was clear what was coming.

Maybe you refer to the hunger plan/ Göring's "Green Folder"?
That plan also is from 1941, part of the feedback loop.

aeromoe wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

Guess he's gotta live up the German stereotype. Face it, we've got no sense of humour

South Park did an episode about this. I have no idea about the truth behind it since they make fun of just about everything.

Well, ACDC8 at least seems to have humour.

My father was born in Hesse and he believes people from Westfalia have no humour. That's why carnival is so important for them.

My father was teacher. He says students with Turkish roots would get his jokes, Biogermans often not so much.

Are you sure the South Park "Funnybot" Episode ridicules Germans? I think it ridicules stereotypes.

But yes, I have to admit:
Voting for Donald Trump suggests that the Americans have more humor than ourself.

Again, no, I am talking about the german treatment of jews and other marginalized groups, the obvious end game of this (mass killings and genocide was nothing new) being well known, common knowledge, and the subject of popular mass market fact books and popular science-books in geography and politics several years before the breakout of the european war.

Sokes wrote:

M564038 wrote:

I didn’t pull this out of thin air. I have seen this in writing from before the war. With my own eyes. There where no lack of warning against the Nazi-regime.
Not everyone wanted to hear, but the information was all there. Though the actual plans wasn’t formally put in to place and executed by the germans before well into the war, it was clear what was coming.

Maybe you refer to the hunger plan/ Göring's "Green Folder"?
That plan also is from 1941, part of the feedback loop.

M564038 wrote:

Again, no, I am talking about the german treatment of jews and other marginalized groups, the obvious end game of this (mass killings and genocide was nothing new) being well known, common knowledge, and the subject of popular mass market fact books and popular science-books in geography and politics several years before the breakout of the european war.

Sokes wrote:

M564038 wrote:

I didn’t pull this out of thin air. I have seen this in writing from before the war. With my own eyes. There where no lack of warning against the Nazi-regime.
Not everyone wanted to hear, but the information was all there. Though the actual plans wasn’t formally put in to place and executed by the germans before well into the war, it was clear what was coming.

Maybe you refer to the hunger plan/ Göring's "Green Folder"?
That plan also is from 1941, part of the feedback loop.

I think that people new pretty well, but for example Sweden was not happy to receive refugees before Scandinavian jews got problems.

In a very sad moment Sweden and other countries was even pushing for Germany to introduce the infamous J into passports for german jewish citizen to make it easier to see potential refugees.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/ ... d-the-jews

M564038 wrote:

In fact-books from the time, from the big publishing houses, called things like «The world today» from 1937 etc. The true nature of the german regime, including the threats of Jew extermination was clearly spelled out. It was, contrary to what many believe, common and accepted knowledge. Everyone knew what the german rhetoric meant.

"The world today" was founded by Chatham House in 1945.
You have another source?
Why would Hitler wait with the gas chambers if it was planned in advance?

I think people had general knowledge about it.

But What did people know about the country of the free USA and the race laws for separation of schools, buses etc because of race?

I have an sensation that black soldiers coming back to USA after 1945 must have got a chock or even worse coming back to USA after world war one 1919.

Did people know that gupsy, jews, homosexuals, trans were going to be gassed? No.

Did they know that they were sterilized, did not b full citizen etc? Probably yes. But at least in Sweden we did similar to our minorities like the Same people until as I remember late 1950s.

As we mentioned in Norway similar treatment was given to girls for having relationship with a German as example.

JFC.
«The world today» by Chatam house would be in a different language in a different country, this is a loose translation from my language and not literal, it is a description of the type of general fact books, year books, popular science books that where made by large publishing houses and displayed proudly on peoples bookshelfs.
This was when radio had barely started, TV was still 25 years away in my country and Internet news more than half a century away. This was the way people gathered popular knowledge that webt a bit beyond the daily newspaper.

You should seek these primary sources up in antique bookstores, maybe your national library(they might have an online collection) and if you live in a country that isn’t Germany you might be surprised about how precise the general accepted analysis about what was about to happen with the jews in central europe was.

Sokes wrote:

M564038 wrote:

In fact-books from the time, from the big publishing houses, called things like «The world today» from 1937 etc. The true nature of the german regime, including the threats of Jew extermination was clearly spelled out. It was, contrary to what many believe, common and accepted knowledge. Everyone knew what the german rhetoric meant.

"The world today" was founded by Chatham House in 1945.
You have another source?
Why would Hitler wait with the gas chambers if it was planned in advance?