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FTMCPIUS
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Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:15 pm

The growing exodus is comprised of mostly the middle class and ‘mere’ millionaires, but California will get you whether you're coming or going. Its Franchise Tax Board goes after the 'excess' wealth of residents and even those who are no longer residents. Pending legislation will penalize billionaires for ‘excess wealth’ on top of the state's already outrageous tax rates. The problem with this is those in Silicone Valley/Hollywood will stay and simply pay, and in one way or another pass it on to middle America.

When will that state learn to live within its means, or will it ever? I fear this a preview of the USA's post-election future under the Dems.

Moron Trump or Crazy Joe & Co. provide us with the ingredients of a real dilemma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfyPZdS ... e=youtu.be
 
unscheduled
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:21 pm

Oh, those poor pitiful billionaires. My heart goes out to them so.
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:00 pm

unscheduled wrote:
Oh, those poor pitiful billionaires. My heart goes out to them so.

If they earned it legally they're entitled to it; if not, they should have been prosecuted. Nearly everyone leaving the state is not a billionaire, though. Are you also OK with them being so heavily taxed?
 
unscheduled
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:28 pm

Your YouTube video is trash right wing propaganda. Worthy of note is that California prevailed and convinced numerous courts, appeals courts and the US Supreme Court that Hyatt's move to Nevada was fraudulent and the California claim for taxes was upheld.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol ... story.html

This is an excellent case study to examine the issue of what are fair taxes. Here's a guy who fraudulently held up HP and Intel and forced them to pay many millions of dollars in royalties which were later found to be undeserved. The guy went from being middle class or slightly upper middle class to a multi millionaire overnight as a result of circumstance that happened in California. Rather than accepting his obligation to pay his fair shair of taxes, which still would have left him a multimillionaire, he pretended to skip town and claimed to be a Nevada resident, renting an apartment in Las Vegas in order to establish residence. In doing so he entered into 28 years of legal battles with HP, Intel, the State of California and the State of Nevada and probably spending most of his questionable gain on attorneys.

This sounds like a guy perfectly in keeping with Donald Trump's ethical code: a scumbag.

IMO California is in the running for being the best managed state in the union, it's most salient problem being that it has become overpopulated. Of the people who are leaving, I wish them well and I hope they don't come back.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:03 am

I agree--disband the police unions! :duck:
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:16 am

There IS a problem with large public employee pension obligations in CA, everyone from the state knows that’s a serious issue. The Franchise Tax Board and the wild-eyed crazy in your Youtube link are not it.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
unscheduled
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:37 am

Aaron747 wrote:
There IS a problem with large public employee pension obligations in CA, everyone from the state knows that’s a serious issue. The Franchise Tax Board and the wild-eyed crazy in your Youtube link are not it.
I agree with that and county governments are reaping obscene amounts in property taxes in some counties, they heardly know where to spend it all.

And as you say hyperbolic appeals to emotion and Tea Party logic are just a quick way to kill the conversation on a needed conversation.
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:59 am

unscheduled wrote:
Your YouTube video is trash right wing propaganda. Worthy of note is that California prevailed and convinced numerous courts, appeals courts and the US Supreme Court that Hyatt's move to Nevada was fraudulent and the California claim for taxes was upheld.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol ... story.html

This is an excellent case study to examine the issue of what are fair taxes. Here's a guy who fraudulently held up HP and Intel and forced them to pay many millions of dollars in royalties which were later found to be undeserved. The guy went from being middle class or slightly upper middle class to a multi millionaire overnight as a result of circumstance that happened in California. Rather than accepting his obligation to pay his fair shair of taxes, which still would have left him a multimillionaire, he pretended to skip town and claimed to be a Nevada resident, renting an apartment in Las Vegas in order to establish residence. In doing so he entered into 28 years of legal battles with HP, Intel, the State of California and the State of Nevada and probably spending most of his questionable gain on attorneys.

This sounds like a guy perfectly in keeping with Donald Trump's ethical code: a scumbag.

IMO California is in the running for being the best managed state in the union, it's most salient problem being that it has become overpopulated. Of the people who are leaving, I wish them well and I hope they don't come back.

Someone sent me the YouTube link. Shame on him for not forewarning me that it was propaganda. What do his legal battles with HP, Intel, etc. have to do with the subject of this post? You don't like the way he does business -- fair enough. As I said, if he broke laws he deserved prosecution. But you aren't able to accept that. The state's Board of Equalization ruled that he had legally moved. And the state settled the lawsuit for the maximum -- a ridiculous $50,000.

The best managed state in the union? You conveniently do not mention the primary cause of the state's overpopulation. I bailed from OC decades ago and have never looked back. California will not survive without a massive federal bailout which will be like supplying a junkie with drugs. But after there are no more 'drugs,' how will California manage itself out of that mess?

Both sides of the political aisle have provided us with their share of scumbags. I'm not defending Trump, I'm defending not letting this country get out of control -- there is a difference.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:10 am

FTMCPIUS wrote:
unscheduled wrote:
Your YouTube video is trash right wing propaganda. Worthy of note is that California prevailed and convinced numerous courts, appeals courts and the US Supreme Court that Hyatt's move to Nevada was fraudulent and the California claim for taxes was upheld.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol ... story.html

This is an excellent case study to examine the issue of what are fair taxes. Here's a guy who fraudulently held up HP and Intel and forced them to pay many millions of dollars in royalties which were later found to be undeserved. The guy went from being middle class or slightly upper middle class to a multi millionaire overnight as a result of circumstance that happened in California. Rather than accepting his obligation to pay his fair shair of taxes, which still would have left him a multimillionaire, he pretended to skip town and claimed to be a Nevada resident, renting an apartment in Las Vegas in order to establish residence. In doing so he entered into 28 years of legal battles with HP, Intel, the State of California and the State of Nevada and probably spending most of his questionable gain on attorneys.

This sounds like a guy perfectly in keeping with Donald Trump's ethical code: a scumbag.

IMO California is in the running for being the best managed state in the union, it's most salient problem being that it has become overpopulated. Of the people who are leaving, I wish them well and I hope they don't come back.

Someone sent me the YouTube link. Shame on him for not forewarning me that it was propaganda. What do his legal battles with HP, Intel, etc. have to do with the subject of this post? You don't like the way he does business -- fair enough. As I said, if he broke laws he deserved prosecution. But you aren't able to accept that. The state's Board of Equalization ruled that he had legally moved. And the state settled the lawsuit for the maximum -- a ridiculous $50,000.

The best managed state in the union? You conveniently do not mention the primary cause of the state's overpopulation. I bailed from OC decades ago and have never looked back. California will not survive without a massive federal bailout which will be like supplying a junkie with drugs. But after there are no more 'drugs,' how will California manage itself out of that mess?

Both sides of the political aisle have provided us with their share of scumbags. I'm not defending Trump, I'm defending not letting this country get out of control -- there is a difference.


Oh please tell us the primary cause of the ‘overpopulation’ - I can guess. And also please tell us who is going to volunteer to work in the fields when that problem is ‘solved’? Uh huh. ‘They’ have been in CA in some form or another since the late 1800s.

As to the real issue here CA citizens have voted time and again to reward their firefighters, city officials, teachers and state employees with generous pensions. Those bills are coming due and are underfunded - that’s an important discussion we all need to have and it’s difficult because different generations of residents don’t see it the same way. My grandmother still draws a state pension monthly at 2/3 of her final salary from 18 years working in a Bay Area school district administration, and says she earned every dime. People my generation say that’s far too generous given our tax burden and these benefits need to be amended and means-tested for high net worth individuals like my grandparents. It’s not going to be easy to solve these issues.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N583JB
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:16 am

Aaron747 wrote:
FTMCPIUS wrote:
unscheduled wrote:
Your YouTube video is trash right wing propaganda. Worthy of note is that California prevailed and convinced numerous courts, appeals courts and the US Supreme Court that Hyatt's move to Nevada was fraudulent and the California claim for taxes was upheld.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol ... story.html

This is an excellent case study to examine the issue of what are fair taxes. Here's a guy who fraudulently held up HP and Intel and forced them to pay many millions of dollars in royalties which were later found to be undeserved. The guy went from being middle class or slightly upper middle class to a multi millionaire overnight as a result of circumstance that happened in California. Rather than accepting his obligation to pay his fair shair of taxes, which still would have left him a multimillionaire, he pretended to skip town and claimed to be a Nevada resident, renting an apartment in Las Vegas in order to establish residence. In doing so he entered into 28 years of legal battles with HP, Intel, the State of California and the State of Nevada and probably spending most of his questionable gain on attorneys.

This sounds like a guy perfectly in keeping with Donald Trump's ethical code: a scumbag.

IMO California is in the running for being the best managed state in the union, it's most salient problem being that it has become overpopulated. Of the people who are leaving, I wish them well and I hope they don't come back.

Someone sent me the YouTube link. Shame on him for not forewarning me that it was propaganda. What do his legal battles with HP, Intel, etc. have to do with the subject of this post? You don't like the way he does business -- fair enough. As I said, if he broke laws he deserved prosecution. But you aren't able to accept that. The state's Board of Equalization ruled that he had legally moved. And the state settled the lawsuit for the maximum -- a ridiculous $50,000.

The best managed state in the union? You conveniently do not mention the primary cause of the state's overpopulation. I bailed from OC decades ago and have never looked back. California will not survive without a massive federal bailout which will be like supplying a junkie with drugs. But after there are no more 'drugs,' how will California manage itself out of that mess?

Both sides of the political aisle have provided us with their share of scumbags. I'm not defending Trump, I'm defending not letting this country get out of control -- there is a difference.


Oh please tell us the primary cause of the ‘overpopulation’ - I can guess. And also please tell us who is going to volunteer to work in the fields when that problem is ‘solved’? Uh huh. ‘They’ have been in CA in some form or another since the late 1800s.

As to the real issue here CA citizens have voted time and again to reward their firefighters, city officials, teachers and state employees with generous pensions. Those bills are coming due and are underfunded - that’s an important discussion we all need to have and it’s difficult because different generations of residents don’t see it the same way. My grandmother still draws a state pension monthly at 2/3 of her final salary from 18 years working in a Bay Area school district administration, and says she earned every dime. People my generation say that’s far too generous given our tax burden and these benefits need to be amended and means-tested for high net worth individuals like my grandparents. It’s not going to be easy to solve these issues.


If the bills are due and the workers were promised pensions when they signed their job offers then those pension obligations need to be honored. Any changes need to be grandfathered in, but people who are already in the system should not lose what they have been promised.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:17 am

California is *ridiculously* dysfunctional.

It is filled with poverty. It has a big (Big!) economy, yet it cannot get reliable WATER or ELECTRICITY for citizens who live there! This is because of ignorance, dysfunction and deeply endemic corruption.

It is *never* enough when corruption and ignorance take hold. Google, Facebook, Apple, Tesla, Oracle.... STILL not enough money.

Totally fuqqin' ludicrous. Upcoming democratic federal government may fully socialize a national system and print money to feed the California unions. Mark my words, that's coming soon. This is all to pay clown retired fire chiefs $350,000 pensions.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:25 am

N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
FTMCPIUS wrote:
Someone sent me the YouTube link. Shame on him for not forewarning me that it was propaganda. What do his legal battles with HP, Intel, etc. have to do with the subject of this post? You don't like the way he does business -- fair enough. As I said, if he broke laws he deserved prosecution. But you aren't able to accept that. The state's Board of Equalization ruled that he had legally moved. And the state settled the lawsuit for the maximum -- a ridiculous $50,000.

The best managed state in the union? You conveniently do not mention the primary cause of the state's overpopulation. I bailed from OC decades ago and have never looked back. California will not survive without a massive federal bailout which will be like supplying a junkie with drugs. But after there are no more 'drugs,' how will California manage itself out of that mess?

Both sides of the political aisle have provided us with their share of scumbags. I'm not defending Trump, I'm defending not letting this country get out of control -- there is a difference.


Oh please tell us the primary cause of the ‘overpopulation’ - I can guess. And also please tell us who is going to volunteer to work in the fields when that problem is ‘solved’? Uh huh. ‘They’ have been in CA in some form or another since the late 1800s.

As to the real issue here CA citizens have voted time and again to reward their firefighters, city officials, teachers and state employees with generous pensions. Those bills are coming due and are underfunded - that’s an important discussion we all need to have and it’s difficult because different generations of residents don’t see it the same way. My grandmother still draws a state pension monthly at 2/3 of her final salary from 18 years working in a Bay Area school district administration, and says she earned every dime. People my generation say that’s far too generous given our tax burden and these benefits need to be amended and means-tested for high net worth individuals like my grandparents. It’s not going to be easy to solve these issues.


If the bills are due and the workers were promised pensions when they signed their job offers then those pension obligations need to be honored. Any changes need to be grandfathered in, but people who are already in the system should not lose what they have been promised.


In principle I agree but there are quite a few people on state pensions like my grandparents and one of my HS teachers who are worth $3+ million on paper. One of the changes I support is means-testing state benefits - as should be done with any other public funds disbursed to individuals.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:28 am

LCDFlight wrote:
California is *ridiculously* dysfunctional.

It is filled with poverty. It has a big (Big!) economy, yet it cannot get reliable WATER or ELECTRICITY for citizens who live there! This is because of ignorance, dysfunction and deeply endemic corruption.

It is *never* enough when corruption and ignorance take hold. Google, Facebook, Apple, Tesla, Oracle.... STILL not enough money.

Totally fuqqin' ludicrous. Upcoming democratic federal government may fully socialize a national system and print money to feed the California unions. Mark my words, that's coming soon. This is all to pay clown retired fire chiefs $350,000 pensions.


Ignorance and dysfunction? Interesting - got a source for that? Corruption - certainly, but that’s in almost every state. In CA it seems to be worst in public works and utilities.

And what is this ‘fully socialized national system’ of which you speak? Why do you call fire chiefs ‘clowns’?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N583JB
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:32 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Oh please tell us the primary cause of the ‘overpopulation’ - I can guess. And also please tell us who is going to volunteer to work in the fields when that problem is ‘solved’? Uh huh. ‘They’ have been in CA in some form or another since the late 1800s.

As to the real issue here CA citizens have voted time and again to reward their firefighters, city officials, teachers and state employees with generous pensions. Those bills are coming due and are underfunded - that’s an important discussion we all need to have and it’s difficult because different generations of residents don’t see it the same way. My grandmother still draws a state pension monthly at 2/3 of her final salary from 18 years working in a Bay Area school district administration, and says she earned every dime. People my generation say that’s far too generous given our tax burden and these benefits need to be amended and means-tested for high net worth individuals like my grandparents. It’s not going to be easy to solve these issues.


If the bills are due and the workers were promised pensions when they signed their job offers then those pension obligations need to be honored. Any changes need to be grandfathered in, but people who are already in the system should not lose what they have been promised.


In principle I agree but there are quite a few people on state pensions like my grandparents and one of my HS teachers who are worth $3+ million on paper. One of the changes I support is means-testing state benefits - as should be done with any other public funds disbursed to individuals.


Why? Someone who signed a contract that says "if you do X, we will do Y" should not have to do anything other than "X" to receive "Y". The employee who is retiring has fulfilled their end of the bargain....the municipality, county, or state should do the same.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:36 am

N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

If the bills are due and the workers were promised pensions when they signed their job offers then those pension obligations need to be honored. Any changes need to be grandfathered in, but people who are already in the system should not lose what they have been promised.


In principle I agree but there are quite a few people on state pensions like my grandparents and one of my HS teachers who are worth $3+ million on paper. One of the changes I support is means-testing state benefits - as should be done with any other public funds disbursed to individuals.


Why? Someone who signed a contract that says "if you do X, we will do Y" should not have to do anything other than "X" to receive "Y". The employee who is retiring has fulfilled their end of the bargain....the municipality, county, or state should do the same.


Yup, you have basically made the state employee unions’ argument for them.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N583JB
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:37 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

In principle I agree but there are quite a few people on state pensions like my grandparents and one of my HS teachers who are worth $3+ million on paper. One of the changes I support is means-testing state benefits - as should be done with any other public funds disbursed to individuals.


Why? Someone who signed a contract that says "if you do X, we will do Y" should not have to do anything other than "X" to receive "Y". The employee who is retiring has fulfilled their end of the bargain....the municipality, county, or state should do the same.


Yup, you have basically made the state employee unions’ argument for them.


It is a valid argument. Some of the pensions in CA are large but that is to be expected in a high cost of living state, particularly amongst employees who have risen up the ranks for two or three decades.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:39 am

Bashing California seems to be a popular pastime on A.net/Non-Aviation.
In the end, the voters of California can decide how they want their state run and how stuff is paid for. Unless you live there, I don’t see why this is relevant to anyone else.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:42 am

N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

Why? Someone who signed a contract that says "if you do X, we will do Y" should not have to do anything other than "X" to receive "Y". The employee who is retiring has fulfilled their end of the bargain....the municipality, county, or state should do the same.


Yup, you have basically made the state employee unions’ argument for them.


It is a valid argument. Some of the pensions in CA are large but that is to be expected in a high cost of living state, particularly amongst employees who have risen up the ranks for two or three decades.


As I said I agree in principle. But my generation is also correct that we should not be on the hook for everything underfunded when the generation receiving most of the benefits grandfathered a property tax reduction for themselves that determined post-1978 winners and losers. Kind of a problem there - people over sixty saying ‘you have to pay for us, even though we voted not to fund the stuff we wanted.’
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
unscheduled
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:45 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Unless you live there, I don’t see why this is relevant to anyone else.

Especially when one takes into account that California is a donor to the national wealth as opposed to most of the red states which receive more Federal dollars every year than they pay in. Also there is the fact that until COVID hit, California had a balanced budget and a sizable nest egg (billions) stashed for emergency.
 
N583JB
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:51 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Yup, you have basically made the state employee unions’ argument for them.


It is a valid argument. Some of the pensions in CA are large but that is to be expected in a high cost of living state, particularly amongst employees who have risen up the ranks for two or three decades.


As I said I agree in principle. But my generation is also correct that we should not be on the hook for everything underfunded when the generation receiving most of the benefits grandfathered a property tax reduction for themselves that determined post-1978 winners and losers. Kind of a problem there - people over sixty saying ‘you have to pay for us, even though we voted not to fund the stuff we wanted.’


The voters are to blame for the tax reduction, and in my opinion it is unreasonable to blame public servants for something that they may or may not have voted for. I'm a young person but I'm also someone who has nearly a decade vested in my state's pension system. I'm admittedly biased, but contracts should be honored. There are ways for cities to pay for things. There is no way for a public servant who has spent decades serving the people to go back in time and not take a job that promised a pension but is now failing to deliver on that promise.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:56 am

On the other hand, contracts and therefore pensions could be abrogated in court.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:58 am

N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

It is a valid argument. Some of the pensions in CA are large but that is to be expected in a high cost of living state, particularly amongst employees who have risen up the ranks for two or three decades.


As I said I agree in principle. But my generation is also correct that we should not be on the hook for everything underfunded when the generation receiving most of the benefits grandfathered a property tax reduction for themselves that determined post-1978 winners and losers. Kind of a problem there - people over sixty saying ‘you have to pay for us, even though we voted not to fund the stuff we wanted.’


The voters are to blame for the tax reduction, and in my opinion it is unreasonable to blame public servants for something that they may or may not have voted for. I'm a young person but I'm also someone who has nearly a decade vested in my state's pension system. I'm admittedly biased, but contracts should be honored. There are ways for cities to pay for things. There is no way for a public servant who has spent decades serving the people to go back in time and not take a job that promised a pension but is now failing to deliver on that promise.


I’m certain my grandparents and most other homeowners of the time voted for Prop 13 - which virtually guaranteed this stuff would be underfunded and someone else would pay. It passed by a 62% clip.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:00 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Oh please tell us the primary cause of the ‘overpopulation’ - I can guess. And also please tell us who is going to volunteer to work in the fields when that problem is ‘solved’? Uh huh. ‘They’ have been in CA in some form or another since the late 1800s.

Are more now needed in the fields than in the past? If so, why are they in the cities and not in the fields? The state's excess population is driven mostly by immigration (yes, mostly illegal) and births by immigrants. I must be getting fed propaganda* about this and California’s homelessness crisis reaching epic proportions -- that state and local governments are largely accommodating them.

I’m sorry for thinking California is evolving into a dysfunctional, filthy mess.

*tarywfnr
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:03 am

FTMCPIUS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Oh please tell us the primary cause of the ‘overpopulation’ - I can guess. And also please tell us who is going to volunteer to work in the fields when that problem is ‘solved’? Uh huh. ‘They’ have been in CA in some form or another since the late 1800s.

Are more now needed in the fields than in the past? If so, why are they in the cities and not in the fields? The state's excess population is driven mostly by immigration (yes, mostly illegal) and births by immigrants. I must be getting fed propaganda* about this and California’s homelessness crisis reaching epic proportions -- that state and local governments are largely accommodating them.

I’m sorry for thinking California is evolving into a dysfunctional, filthy mess.

*tarywfnr


Illegal immigration is driving homelessness in CA? Whee doggie, that’s a new one. You have successfully derailed your own topic - way to go OP!

As for the fields, here’s your answer:

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi- ... migration/
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N583JB
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:08 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

As I said I agree in principle. But my generation is also correct that we should not be on the hook for everything underfunded when the generation receiving most of the benefits grandfathered a property tax reduction for themselves that determined post-1978 winners and losers. Kind of a problem there - people over sixty saying ‘you have to pay for us, even though we voted not to fund the stuff we wanted.’


The voters are to blame for the tax reduction, and in my opinion it is unreasonable to blame public servants for something that they may or may not have voted for. I'm a young person but I'm also someone who has nearly a decade vested in my state's pension system. I'm admittedly biased, but contracts should be honored. There are ways for cities to pay for things. There is no way for a public servant who has spent decades serving the people to go back in time and not take a job that promised a pension but is now failing to deliver on that promise.


I’m certain my grandparents and most other homeowners of the time voted for Prop 13 - which virtually guaranteed this stuff would be underfunded and someone else would pay. It passed by a 62% clip.


I'm also fairly certain that everyone who voted for or against prop 13 is retired by now. 1978 was 42 years ago, after all. And someone who was born in 1980 and who now has nearly 20 years in the state pension system is not a scapegoat.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:36 am

FTMCPIUS wrote:
The growing exodus is comprised of mostly the middle class and ‘mere’ millionaires, but California will get you whether you're coming or going. Its Franchise Tax Board goes after the 'excess' wealth of residents and even those who are no longer residents. Pending legislation will penalize billionaires for ‘excess wealth’ on top of the state's already outrageous tax rates. The problem with this is those in Silicone Valley/Hollywood will stay and simply pay, and in one way or another pass it on to middle America.

When will that state learn to live within its means, or will it ever? I fear this a preview of the USA's post-election future under the Dems.

Moron Trump or Crazy Joe & Co. provide us with the ingredients of a real dilemma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfyPZdS ... e=youtu.be



Oh wait, they are going to tax those who choose to live in a climate like the Overpopulated, yet climatology comfortable California coast vs those that choose to live in the frigid North Dakota, or Up state Snow bound NY ?

You did study economics right?

Republicans used to believe tin the free hand right of the economy and capitalism right?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
Ken777
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:40 am

Like it or not, California is an expensive state to operate/function and that makes it an expensive place to live. Toss in the fires and earthquakes and financial challenges continue to rise higher. One should not be surprised to see those increases git state employees as well or that pension funds that a don't receive continuous payments will have problems.

California has also been an economic powerhouse, from high tech to agriculture. While it costs a fair chunk to work or have a business there it is also possible to pull a fair amount of cash and profits out of the state. I have a friend who lived for decades in Palo Alto and that was as great quality of life. He had a good job, was able to send his kits do University, pay of his house, etc. I was most envious in the weather he enjoyed. Picking a lemon from his tree in the back yard in the middle of January blew this Okie away!
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:57 am

Aaron747 wrote:
FTMCPIUS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Oh please tell us the primary cause of the ‘overpopulation’ - I can guess. And also please tell us who is going to volunteer to work in the fields when that problem is ‘solved’? Uh huh. ‘They’ have been in CA in some form or another since the late 1800s.

Are more now needed in the fields than in the past? If so, why are they in the cities and not in the fields? The state's excess population is driven mostly by immigration (yes, mostly illegal) and births by immigrants. I must be getting fed propaganda* about this and California’s homelessness crisis reaching epic proportions -- that state and local governments are largely accommodating them.

I’m sorry for thinking California is evolving into a dysfunctional, filthy mess.

*tarywfnr


Illegal immigration is driving homelessness in CA? Whee doggie, that’s a new one. You have successfully derailed your own topic - way to go OP!

As for the fields, here’s your answer:

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi- ... migration/

Where and how did I suggest illegal immigration is driving homelessness in CA? You have unsuccessfully transposed the meaning of two separate sentences. I agree, jobs Americans don't want. I didn't suggest otherwise.

I will repeat from my post: 'Are more now needed in the fields than in the past? If so, why are they in the cities and not in the fields?' The operative wording is 'Are more now needed...' I know you are high IQ, so please read what I wrote, not what you'd like to think I wrote.
 
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:11 am

casinterest wrote:
Oh wait, they are going to tax those who choose to live in a climate like the Overpopulated, yet climatology comfortable California coast vs those that choose to live in the frigid North Dakota, or Up state Snow bound NY ?

You did study economics right?

Republicans used to believe tin the free hand right of the economy and capitalism right?

I think I believe in 'the free hand right of the economy and capitalism' (at least what it seems you are trying to say). Do you deny far more contributors to California's economy are leaving the state than those who have a negative effect on its economy are coming in?
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:22 am

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
California is *ridiculously* dysfunctional.

It is filled with poverty. It has a big (Big!) economy, yet it cannot get reliable WATER or ELECTRICITY for citizens who live there! This is because of ignorance, dysfunction and deeply endemic corruption.

It is *never* enough when corruption and ignorance take hold. Google, Facebook, Apple, Tesla, Oracle.... STILL not enough money.

Totally fuqqin' ludicrous. Upcoming democratic federal government may fully socialize a national system and print money to feed the California unions. Mark my words, that's coming soon. This is all to pay clown retired fire chiefs $350,000 pensions.


Ignorance and dysfunction? Interesting - got a source for that? Corruption - certainly, but that’s in almost every state. In CA it seems to be worst in public works and utilities.

And what is this ‘fully socialized national system’ of which you speak? Why do you call fire chiefs ‘clowns’?


We're not that far apart. Dysfunction- do you read the news? Have you seen that homeless people are ruining the public square across CA major cities? Have you noticed clear confirmation that CA can't provide stable water and electricity supplies? That's dysfunction. It's not a money issue.

Trillions of dollars in public debt - that's corruption, theft. The clowns I am talking about are people like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Bell_scandal

Robert Rizzo got himself paid $800,000 a year to run a minor city. If a firefighter or police officer wants to be paid as much as a cardiologist or spine surgeon, it means they are a corrupt clown.

Lastly, what did I mean that California's $2 trillion debt will soon be nationalized? Glad you asked. Once the federal government is again run by friendly Democrats, watch for the special "California / Illinois / Connecticut bailout." That's free money to pay off these clowns I mentioned. Just wait. It's coming soon, in about 6 months.
 
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stl07
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:23 am

Left or right, California is full of problems. It's not like things improved under the R bodybuilder that lead the state. Can we ever talk about the issues of Cali without getting into a debate about its political party?
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MaverickM11
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:29 am

casinterest wrote:
FTMCPIUS wrote:
The growing exodus is comprised of mostly the middle class and ‘mere’ millionaires, but California will get you whether you're coming or going. Its Franchise Tax Board goes after the 'excess' wealth of residents and even those who are no longer residents. Pending legislation will penalize billionaires for ‘excess wealth’ on top of the state's already outrageous tax rates. The problem with this is those in Silicone Valley/Hollywood will stay and simply pay, and in one way or another pass it on to middle America.

When will that state learn to live within its means, or will it ever? I fear this a preview of the USA's post-election future under the Dems.

Moron Trump or Crazy Joe & Co. provide us with the ingredients of a real dilemma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfyPZdS ... e=youtu.be



Oh wait, they are going to tax those who choose to live in a climate like the Overpopulated, yet climatology comfortable California coast vs those that choose to live in the frigid North Dakota, or Up state Snow bound NY ?

You did study economics right?

Republicans used to believe tin the free hand right of the economy and capitalism right?

It’s funny that all these right winguts love to hate California and Austin and NYC but they sure love living there. They never ever move to the Confederacy... Still waiting on the Bible Belt economic mirakul to takeoff. Any minute now!
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:31 am

stl07 wrote:
Left or right, California is full of problems. It's not like things improved under the R bodybuilder that lead the state. Can we ever talk about the issues of Cali without getting into a debate about its political party?


This, times one thousand. Some issues currently felt in CA are contemporary, some were born in the 60s and 70s, some go back to late 19th century. Anyone who has seriously studied the state’s history knows it is as complex and layered as any equivalent-sized country.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:50 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
California is *ridiculously* dysfunctional.

It is filled with poverty. It has a big (Big!) economy, yet it cannot get reliable WATER or ELECTRICITY for citizens who live there! This is because of ignorance, dysfunction and deeply endemic corruption.

It is *never* enough when corruption and ignorance take hold. Google, Facebook, Apple, Tesla, Oracle.... STILL not enough money.

Totally fuqqin' ludicrous. Upcoming democratic federal government may fully socialize a national system and print money to feed the California unions. Mark my words, that's coming soon. This is all to pay clown retired fire chiefs $350,000 pensions.


Ignorance and dysfunction? Interesting - got a source for that? Corruption - certainly, but that’s in almost every state. In CA it seems to be worst in public works and utilities.

And what is this ‘fully socialized national system’ of which you speak? Why do you call fire chiefs ‘clowns’?


We're not that far apart. Dysfunction- do you read the news? Have you seen that homeless people are ruining the public square across CA major cities? Have you noticed clear confirmation that CA can't provide stable water and electricity supplies? That's dysfunction. It's not a money issue.

Trillions of dollars in public debt - that's corruption, theft. The clowns I am talking about are people like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Bell_scandal

Robert Rizzo got himself paid $800,000 a year to run a minor city. If a firefighter or police officer wants to be paid as much as a cardiologist or spine surgeon, it means they are a corrupt clown.

Lastly, what did I mean that California's $2 trillion debt will soon be nationalized? Glad you asked. Once the federal government is again run by friendly Democrats, watch for the special "California / Illinois / Connecticut bailout." That's free money to pay off these clowns I mentioned. Just wait. It's coming soon, in about 6 months.


Very familiar with the Rizzo case - are you suggesting he is the norm among public safety officials and not an outlier?

Public debt is easy - pension is the largest source . As previously addressed, it is underfunded and that’s a huge challenge for every level of state government. It’s nowhere near accurate to say promises based on 1970s costs and revenues amounts to ‘bailing out clowns’ - most are not clowns and are state/local workers who did their jobs for decades. Do you disagree? As other posters indicated, these are contractual obligations that were voted for - how do you propose to deliver on that? Find out more about what is driving costs here:

https://www.ppic.org/publication/public ... alifornia/

As for the homeless issue, anyone who has grown up in a CA urban area knows this has been an issue since at least the 1960s - a perfect storm of good weather, federal indifference to Vietnam and Gulf veterans’ plight and NIMBYism that has blocked growth mitigation housing construction in cities (luxury condo towers with high return are A-okay though!). If anything, CA is a good example of the accident-prone intersection between capitalism and social ills.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
unscheduled
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:11 am

LCDFlight wrote:
CA can't provide stable water and electricity supplies?

Nonsense, there's no place in California that's without water.
The electricity supply is also stable.

You're spewing hyperbole.

The homeless issue is a national issue and California has been a magnet for the cast offs from other states.
If the red states would fix their problems California's "homeless issue" would all but disappear.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:43 am

For those who can't/don't want to watch a video, here is an article talking about the law : https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/c ... the-state/ It's biased against the law but at least describes it clearly.

This is not a middle class law, it's a wealth tax, only applying to the top 0,15% of Californians, all of them multi-millionaires, so not middle class unless you stretch the definition of that category to meaninglessness.

I was born in a country with a wealth tax, and it has been there for most of my life (some governments abolished it, the next ones put it back). Emmanuel Macron vowed to change it and did so after his election, now it only applies to real estate, no more to other assets. One big issue was with people who owned their company and had to pay it despite not getting an especially big revenue or wealth increase from their company.

I'm rather against a wealth tax, mainly because that's money already taxed. However in the US capital gains tax in particular is much too low, creating this problem with people's wealth increasing rapidly once a threshold is attained.

As for public pensions, either public employees should get the same system as everyone else (401K or whatever) or everybody should be able to contribute and get the same public pension deal.
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kalvado
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:49 am

unscheduled wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
CA can't provide stable water and electricity supplies?

Nonsense, there's no place in California that's without water.
The electricity supply is also stable.

You're spewing hyperbole.

The homeless issue is a national issue and California has been a magnet for the cast offs from other states.
If the red states would fix their problems California's "homeless issue" would all but disappear.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... s-dry-sgma
Are you saying this is inaccurate?
 
unscheduled
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:32 pm

kalvado wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/28/california-water-wells-dry-sgma
Are you saying this is inaccurate?
Look at the lawn in this picture of this "drought stricken" community.
Image
I think that article has truth in it, but I also think it can easily be taken out of context.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:43 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Ignorance and dysfunction? Interesting - got a source for that? Corruption - certainly, but that’s in almost every state. In CA it seems to be worst in public works and utilities.

And what is this ‘fully socialized national system’ of which you speak? Why do you call fire chiefs ‘clowns’?


We're not that far apart. Dysfunction- do you read the news? Have you seen that homeless people are ruining the public square across CA major cities? Have you noticed clear confirmation that CA can't provide stable water and electricity supplies? That's dysfunction. It's not a money issue.

Trillions of dollars in public debt - that's corruption, theft. The clowns I am talking about are people like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Bell_scandal

Robert Rizzo got himself paid $800,000 a year to run a minor city. If a firefighter or police officer wants to be paid as much as a cardiologist or spine surgeon, it means they are a corrupt clown.

Lastly, what did I mean that California's $2 trillion debt will soon be nationalized? Glad you asked. Once the federal government is again run by friendly Democrats, watch for the special "California / Illinois / Connecticut bailout." That's free money to pay off these clowns I mentioned. Just wait. It's coming soon, in about 6 months.


Very familiar with the Rizzo case - are you suggesting he is the norm among public safety officials and not an outlier?

Public debt is easy - pension is the largest source . As previously addressed, it is underfunded and that’s a huge challenge for every level of state government. It’s nowhere near accurate to say promises based on 1970s costs and revenues amounts to ‘bailing out clowns’ - most are not clowns and are state/local workers who did their jobs for decades. Do you disagree? As other posters indicated, these are contractual obligations that were voted for - how do you propose to deliver on that? Find out more about what is driving costs here:

https://www.ppic.org/publication/public ... alifornia/

As for the homeless issue, anyone who has grown up in a CA urban area knows this has been an issue since at least the 1960s - a perfect storm of good weather, federal indifference to Vietnam and Gulf veterans’ plight and NIMBYism that has blocked growth mitigation housing construction in cities (luxury condo towers with high return are A-okay though!). If anything, CA is a good example of the accident-prone intersection between capitalism and social ills.


Yes, I am suggesting Rizzo is the norm in California. Take a look. Thousands, and thousands of California public workers are multi-millionaires. Each $50k of pension is worth roughly one million dollars. That's the primary issue, and it's important you understand that normal cops are pulling $250k-$300k per year in California. Chiefs are commonly pulling $500k. Including pension accrual.

https://transparentcalifornia.com/agencies/pensions/

What you are saying is accurate - what I am saying is Rizzo, arguably did mostly a legal process. Looting the public is mostly legal, once you have control of the government. Rizzo and the city council had the power to set public sector salaries. Corrupt mayors and city councils across California have this power. The result is the incredible collection of information I just linked.

unscheduled wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
CA can't provide stable water and electricity supplies?

Nonsense, there's no place in California that's without water.
The electricity supply is also stable.

You're spewing hyperbole.

The homeless issue is a national issue and California has been a magnet for the cast offs from other states.
If the red states would fix their problems California's "homeless issue" would all but disappear.


I see. So you are ignoring the pretty famous Gray Davis electricity problems. You are ignoring that much of the Bay Area had rolling blackouts this summer (4 days this week). This is one of the world's wealthiest areas, arguably the wealthiest area on Earth. Rolling blackouts -- like it's Pakistan! You're ignoring this, moving on.

Water - the supply of water in California has been stable? I guess that ignores the 2011-2019 water crisis. It will come back soon. And not because of human water use like drinking or showering - it's because of agricultural water rights. Lack of effective water market management.

I don't dislike California, it is beautiful and also rich, but its governance is lazy and entitled.
Last edited by LCDFlight on Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
afcjets
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:59 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
The problem with this is those in Silicone Valley/Hollywood will stay and simply pay, and in one way or another pass it on to middle America.



Actually LA has gotten so bad even a lot in Hollywood are leaving, and it's just now getting started.

"The Westwood area of LA, home to some of the most upmarket blocks of flats in the city, has been renamed 'West Hood' by locals appalled by rising crime.

Veteran publicist Ed Lozzi says: 'The city was changing before coronavirus brought us to our knees. The homeless problem has been escalating for years, exacerbated by weak politicians making bad decisions.

'Hollywood has always been the wokest of the woke, so politicians have done nothing to stop people sleeping on the streets. It's not illegal and the weather's nice, so they keep coming.

'There is insufficient housing, inadequate mental health care. Add in Covid and it's a perfect storm.

'When I first arrived in LA 40 years ago, the town smelled of orange blossoms. Now the streets stink of urine. There is a beautiful park in Westwood but you can't go there because there are people slumped on the ground and you step on a carpet of needles.""

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... roves.html

"Rich and famous are fleeing in droves as liberal politics and coronavirus turn City of Dreams into cesspit plagued by junkies and violent criminals."
Last edited by afcjets on Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:00 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

We're not that far apart. Dysfunction- do you read the news? Have you seen that homeless people are ruining the public square across CA major cities? Have you noticed clear confirmation that CA can't provide stable water and electricity supplies? That's dysfunction. It's not a money issue.

Trillions of dollars in public debt - that's corruption, theft. The clowns I am talking about are people like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Bell_scandal

Robert Rizzo got himself paid $800,000 a year to run a minor city. If a firefighter or police officer wants to be paid as much as a cardiologist or spine surgeon, it means they are a corrupt clown.

Lastly, what did I mean that California's $2 trillion debt will soon be nationalized? Glad you asked. Once the federal government is again run by friendly Democrats, watch for the special "California / Illinois / Connecticut bailout." That's free money to pay off these clowns I mentioned. Just wait. It's coming soon, in about 6 months.


Very familiar with the Rizzo case - are you suggesting he is the norm among public safety officials and not an outlier?

Public debt is easy - pension is the largest source . As previously addressed, it is underfunded and that’s a huge challenge for every level of state government. It’s nowhere near accurate to say promises based on 1970s costs and revenues amounts to ‘bailing out clowns’ - most are not clowns and are state/local workers who did their jobs for decades. Do you disagree? As other posters indicated, these are contractual obligations that were voted for - how do you propose to deliver on that? Find out more about what is driving costs here:

https://www.ppic.org/publication/public ... alifornia/

As for the homeless issue, anyone who has grown up in a CA urban area knows this has been an issue since at least the 1960s - a perfect storm of good weather, federal indifference to Vietnam and Gulf veterans’ plight and NIMBYism that has blocked growth mitigation housing construction in cities (luxury condo towers with high return are A-okay though!). If anything, CA is a good example of the accident-prone intersection between capitalism and social ills.


Yes, I am suggesting Rizzo is the norm in California. Take a look. Thousands, and thousands of California public workers are multi-millionaires. Each $50k of pension is worth roughly one million dollars. That's the primary issue, and it's important you understand that normal cops are pulling $250k-$300k per year in California. Chiefs are commonly pulling $500k. Including pension accrual.

https://transparentcalifornia.com/agencies/pensions/

What you are saying is accurate - what I am saying is Rizzo, arguably did mostly a legal process. Looting the public is mostly legal, once you have control of the government. Rizzo and the city council had the power to set public sector salaries. Corrupt mayors and city councils across California have this power.


Okay now how about the points on pensions and spiraling local/county debts and homelessness? You made it sound like the latter is ‘news’ when it has been persistent for 50+ years.
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Tugger
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:18 pm

OK, so the topic is now more matching the thread title than the first post read....

Yes, public employee unions are a big issue in California and need to be addressed. My basic disagreement is that they get to elect those that will negotiate, shape and approve their contracts. They effectively get to go to the trough twice. Then on top of that they spike their pension payout and claim it is their right. Happily California is addressing that and putting in place rules to end this crass practice. I get the "grab whatever you can" mentality, I mean why not, when everyone else is doing it? But seriously, that people think it is OK to do this is pretty sad, so it has to be stopped. Next excessive pension benefits need to be reduced (some are already being replaced by 401k's).

Of course California isn't alone in this. Many states have pension problems, in fact California is only mid-pack, almost half the states have a worse problem than California:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/20 ... /40302439/

Tugg
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Jetsgo
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:27 pm

unscheduled wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
CA can't provide stable water and electricity supplies?

The electricity supply is also stable.


Debatable. PG&E is yet again cutting power to residences and businesses this week due to the heat wave.
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Tugger
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:43 pm

Jetsgo wrote:
unscheduled wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
CA can't provide stable water and electricity supplies?

The electricity supply is also stable.


Debatable. PG&E is yet again cutting power to residences and businesses this week due to the heat wave.

Meh, that has also to do with the fire issue as well as the extreme energy use for cooling during the heat wave. So I in fact agree that it is debatable but guess I am leaning in the more "stable" direction, even if there are issues. Weather and environmental issues impact many states power and heating (ice causes lines to be down and heating oil can be in short supply too), so that always has to be managed.

And as to water, in actuality California has no real problem with water, just water law and policies. Farming uses about 40% of the water here and urban areas use just 10%. So we could adjust that if needed. Farming is a $50 billion a year industry here, around 3% of the economy. California exports more than it consumes, so we are essentially exporting our water. Now I do think farming is important and that its real value far outstrips its actual economic "value" and so don't advocate anything that would really threaten it hugely, but a.) we could reduce water wasting crops which consume about half the agri-water; and b.) change the century old laws that allow many farms to extract however much they wish/need without paying anything for it (I am over simplifying the issue but this is basically part of the problem and why water wasting crops work here).

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:01 pm

afcjets wrote:
FTMCPIUS wrote:
The problem with this is those in Silicone Valley/Hollywood will stay and simply pay, and in one way or another pass it on to middle America.



Actually LA has gotten so bad even a lot in Hollywood are leaving, and it's just now getting started.

"The Westwood area of LA, home to some of the most upmarket blocks of flats in the city, has been renamed 'West Hood' by locals appalled by rising crime.

Veteran publicist Ed Lozzi says: 'The city was changing before coronavirus brought us to our knees. The homeless problem has been escalating for years, exacerbated by weak politicians making bad decisions.

'Hollywood has always been the wokest of the woke, so politicians have done nothing to stop people sleeping on the streets. It's not illegal and the weather's nice, so they keep coming.

'There is insufficient housing, inadequate mental health care. Add in Covid and it's a perfect storm.

'When I first arrived in LA 40 years ago, the town smelled of orange blossoms. Now the streets stink of urine. There is a beautiful park in Westwood but you can't go there because there are people slumped on the ground and you step on a carpet of needles.""

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... roves.html

"Rich and famous are fleeing in droves as liberal politics and coronavirus turn City of Dreams into cesspit plagued by junkies and violent criminals."


Hyperbole does not equal facts. Property crime rates in LA have ticked up a few percentage points per year since 2017, but there is no indication LA is increasingly ‘plagued’ by violent crime, in fact it is better off than many cities that are considerably smaller. The current homicide rates are around 1/3 of what was seen in the early 1990s and late 1970s, as is typical of many US cities. PERCEPTIONS of crime are way out of whack with reality.

From the LAPD:

Image
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afcjets
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Hyperbole does not equal facts. Property crime rates in LA have ticked up a few percentage points per year since 2017, but there is no indication LA is increasingly ‘plagued’ by violent crime, in fact it is better off than many cities that are considerably smaller. The current homicide rates are around 1/3 of what was seen in the early 1990s and late 1970s, as is typical of many US cities. PERCEPTIONS of crime are way out of whack with reality.

From the LAPD:

Image


Your graph is dated through 2019 and will likely look much different when 2020 is over.

"Renee Taylor, an Oscar-nominated screenwriter and actress who appeared in the hit TV sitcom The Nanny, recently sold her Beverly Hills home after half a century and moved to the East Coast.

'I feel so sad for my friends left in Beverly Hills who had to suffer through looting and rioting,' she says. 'I got out just in time.'

The virus only made matters worse. There are homeless encampments in some of the most instantly recognisable tourist traps.

Stretches of Hollywood Boulevard – embedded with glittering stars representing those who achieved their dream of fame and fortune – resemble a Third World shanty town rather than the heart of America's second-largest city.

Outside the Chinese Theatre where Marilyn Monroe and other screen icons are immortalised by their handprints in concrete, the Michael Jackson and Superman lookalikes who usually pose with tourists have been replaced by vagrants begging for change.

Meanwhile, the visitors snap photos of a large Black Lives Matter logo painted down the middle of the street."
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:40 pm

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Hyperbole does not equal facts. Property crime rates in LA have ticked up a few percentage points per year since 2017, but there is no indication LA is increasingly ‘plagued’ by violent crime, in fact it is better off than many cities that are considerably smaller. The current homicide rates are around 1/3 of what was seen in the early 1990s and late 1970s, as is typical of many US cities. PERCEPTIONS of crime are way out of whack with reality.

From the LAPD:

Image


Your graph is dated through 2019 and will likely look much different when 2020 is over.

"Renee Taylor, an Oscar-nominated screenwriter and actress who appeared in the hit TV sitcom The Nanny, recently sold her Beverly Hills home after half a century and moved to the East Coast.

'I feel so sad for my friends left in Beverly Hills who had to suffer through looting and rioting,' she says. 'I got out just in time.'

The virus only made matters worse. There are homeless encampments in some of the most instantly recognisable tourist traps.

Stretches of Hollywood Boulevard – embedded with glittering stars representing those who achieved their dream of fame and fortune – resemble a Third World shanty town rather than the heart of America's second-largest city.

Outside the Chinese Theatre where Marilyn Monroe and other screen icons are immortalised by their handprints in concrete, the Michael Jackson and Superman lookalikes who usually pose with tourists have been replaced by vagrants begging for change.

Meanwhile, the visitors snap photos of a large Black Lives Matter logo painted down the middle of the street."


Uh huh, not nearly to the extent your hyperbole is claiming. Here's Chief Moore's stat tracker - homicide YTD 2020 is +33 over YTD 2019...on pace for about 300 if my math is right. Motor vehicle theft also way up - other crimes rather lower than previous years.

http://lapd-assets.lapdonline.org/asset ... typrof.pdf

Your quotes are also hyperbolic - perhaps that lady quoted is just highly sensitive. There have been vagrants in San Francisco's Union Square since the 1950s - that hasn't stopped the city's wealthy from shopping there all these years. You people are a trip - suddenly considering the Daily Mail to be a reputable source? LOL
Last edited by Aaron747 on Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:41 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Oh wait, they are going to tax those who choose to live in a climate like the Overpopulated, yet climatology comfortable California coast vs those that choose to live in the frigid North Dakota, or Up state Snow bound NY ?

You did study economics right?

Republicans used to believe tin the free hand right of the economy and capitalism right?

I think I believe in 'the free hand right of the economy and capitalism' (at least what it seems you are trying to say). Do you deny far more contributors to California's economy are leaving the state than those who have a negative effect on its economy are coming in?


Yes I do deny it. California as an economy creates jobs, and keeps low unemployment. Those that are leaving the state, are either not profitable enough in their job to continue to survive in the highly competitive environment,got a job transfer, or they are retiring.

The current Covid shutdowns do have an effect on how many people are working everywhere, but California is a place where Unions are needed to ensure workers are not exploited.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:17 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
You people are a trip - suddenly considering the Daily Mail to be a reputable source? LOL

The Daily Mail is as extreme in one direction as the NYT/WaPo et al. are on the other. The former expands reality, the latter often simply ignore it and hope readers won't know any better (which apparently works).
 
FTMCPIUS
Topic Author
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:10 pm

Re: Public employee unions hell-bent on destroying California

Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:26 pm

casinterest wrote:
Yes I do deny it. California as an economy creates jobs, and keeps low unemployment. Those that are leaving the state, are either not profitable enough in their job to continue to survive in the highly competitive environment,got a job transfer, or they are retiring.


So, to be clear, you believe most arriving in California have an equal and offsetting economic effect relative to those who are leaving, is that correct?
Last edited by FTMCPIUS on Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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