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alfa164
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German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:10 am

In what seems to be a troubling occurrence among critics of Putin, prominent anti-corruption activist Alexei Navalny became unconscious after reportedly "poisoned with a toxin" (where have we heard about that before?) during his return to Moscow from Eastern Russia:

“We are fearless and unstoppable, no matter how harsh the pressure is from Putin’s thuggish government,” Navalny had told The Daily Beast earlier in the year.

"The alleged poisoning comes just weeks after Navalny leveled corruption accusations against Svetlana Radionova, a Kremlin environmental inspector, citing documents that tied her to luxurious real estate in Moscow and Nice. “Such wealth cannot be explained. It is so outrageous,” Navalny said in a report on YouTube, which was viewed by more than 3 million people."




https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53844958

https://www.thedailybeast.com/putin-opp ... in-his-tea

https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/statu ... tives.html
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:48 am

Who could have seen this coming...
:sarcastic:
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:05 am

It’s no wonder he and MBS are major buds - they have the same hobbies. Interesting thing about despots is they always have minions do their dirty work - Idi Amin might be the last who actually shot people himself.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:44 am

No surprise. Undoubtedly the Putin regime wanted to send a strong signal to the opposition not to do the same as in Belarus.

This is the second time Navalny is being poisoned. The first time he was in prison on an "administrative charge".
 
cpd
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:45 am

Dutchy wrote:
No surprise. Undoubtedly the Putin regime wanted to send a strong signal to the opposition not to do the same as in Belarus.

This is the second time Navalny is being poisoned. The first time he was in prison on an "administrative charge".


It looks super dodgy. Surely if he is going around poisoning people left right and centre, one of his rivals will take similar action in revenge one day?

He can't keep going on this way and not end up having enemies everywhere. :banghead:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:17 am

cpd wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
No surprise. Undoubtedly the Putin regime wanted to send a strong signal to the opposition not to do the same as in Belarus.

This is the second time Navalny is being poisoned. The first time he was in prison on an "administrative charge".


It looks super dodgy. Surely if he is going around poisoning people left right and centre, one of his rivals will take similar action in revenge one day?

He can't keep going on this way and not end up having enemies everywhere. :banghead:


Sure, that's why he can't actually step down from power. The problem for every autocrat, how to leave power to a successor without getting your head chopped of or landing your ass in jail. On the other hand, Yeltsin succeeded with getting Putin in power who protected him and his family. He is not sure how he will be succeded, that's why he got the Douma to adopt the constitution change in order for him to stay in power till 2036.
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:02 am

Putin is more evil than the devil himself!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:06 pm

SAS A340 wrote:
Putin is more evil than the devil himself!

Is the devil evil? Or just gives humans acceptance of their being evil to each other?

Gotta say when I read the news I just thought "Of course". Putin is a nasty piece of work who cares nothing for anything but himself and his cronies.

Tugg
 
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casinterest
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:17 pm

All those doctor's statements makes me think that they have hospitals with many floors.
 
alfa164
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:29 pm

casinterest wrote:
All those doctor's statements makes me think that they have hospitals with many floors.


Should we start the lottery now: guess which floor Navalny will "accidentally" fall from?
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:57 am

Navalny has to be one of the most courageous people on the planet. To no great surprise, Russian doctors are preventing him from leaving Russia, saying that his condition was "too unstable" to be transferred to Germany:
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/08/ ... tem-a71213

Will be interesting to see how the opposition candidates will fare in the Siberian local elections next month, given that he was touring Siberia to support them.

Putin is obviously looking nervously over his shoulders at events in Belarus.
 
Sokes
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:58 pm

SAS A340 wrote:
Putin is more evil than the devil himself!

People do all kind of nonsense and on top of it spoil Satan's good name. ;)

I read people with criminal record are excluded from election which is an easy way to get rid of serious opposition.
Even though:
Putin in 2018 got 77% of votes.
Are these serious elections?

Why do people tolerate how the opposition is treated?
In Germany we say the Weimar Republic was a democracy without democrates.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:08 pm

Putin is really just a coward who can’t handle criticism and challenges to his authority. He’s getting messy and doesn’t even try to kill people discreetly anymore. He knows the 24 hour news cycle will be onto something else tomorrow and all will be forgotten.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:32 pm

Since this is a.net, the flight he fell ill on appears to be S7 2614 TOF-DME which was operated by VP-BQF

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 4#254407a1

 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:48 pm

Looks like he'll survive the poisoning, but will be out of action for a while:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/08/ ... zer-a71223
 
T4thH
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:54 pm

He has been most likely poisoned according physicians of Charite hospital. Source is in German, use a translator.
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/charite-berlin-befunde-weisen-auf-vergiftung-nawalnyjs-hin-16919165.html

According news above, they have found clear signs for one toxin of the group of the cholinesterase inhibitors. There are permanent and non permanent cholinesterase inhibitors. The non permanent are used as treatment as example for Alzheimer.

The group of permanent cholinesterase inhibitors has well known members like; E605, Tabun, Soman, Sarin, Cyclosarin, Chlorosarin, V-group, like VX and also the Novichok agent group.

But sorry, if this was one of the permanent cholinesterase group...you take a lamp, check the eyes and you are immediately well aware as physician, that is not a hypoglycymia. And if your patient is a politician of the opposition in Russia and you see the pupil of the eyes with a lamp, you /as physician in a hospital in Russia) shall be well aware, what is most likely going on. You have and will hopefully never again see such small pupil.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:56 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Who could have seen this coming...


This was also completely predictable.

"Angela Merkel demanded a joint EU reaction to the poisoning of Russia opposition leader Alexei Navalny, saying the bloc must produce a similar response to the afteatrmh of the attempted murder of Sergei Skripal in the U.K. 2018. But the German chancellor said the case should not impact on the controversial Nord Stream 2 pipeline project."
https://www.politico.eu/article/alexei- ... on-leader/
 
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Tugger
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:02 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
But the German chancellor said the case should not impact on the controversial Nord Stream 2 pipeline project."[/i]

Well of course! Just because nations murder their citizens is no reason to not do business with them. I mean come on, we're talking money here!

Tugg
 
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scbriml
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:18 pm

Tugger wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
But the German chancellor said the case should not impact on the controversial Nord Stream 2 pipeline project."[/i]

Well of course! Just because nations murder their citizens is no reason to not do business with them. I mean come on, we're talking money here!

Tugg


Germany is hardly alone in that respect. The UK & US continue to do business with Saudi Arabia.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:35 pm

scbriml wrote:
Tugger wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
But the German chancellor said the case should not impact on the controversial Nord Stream 2 pipeline project."[/i]

Well of course! Just because nations murder their citizens is no reason to not do business with them. I mean come on, we're talking money here!

Tugg


Germany is hardly alone in that respect. The UK & US continue to do business with Saudi Arabia.

Oh yes, I full well know that. It is... normal? Sadly. But a thing forever between nations.

Tugg
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:39 pm

Tugger wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
But the German chancellor said the case should not impact on the controversial Nord Stream 2 pipeline project."[/i]

Well of course! Just because nations murder their citizens is no reason to not do business with them. I mean come on, we're talking money here!

Tugg


This is not about money. If you read up on the case there is little business case for the Nord Stream 2 and a lot of geoplitics. As Churchill accurately observed "The Hun is either at your feet or at your throat"... Germany is probably in the "at Russia's feet" stage of their foreign policy at the moment, naively believing appeasement will tame Putin (the same way they believed misguided Ostpolitik will soften up Brezhnev or Honecker :roll: :roll: ). Also, the mainstream German politics is so deranged about the US the last 20 or so years, they are willing to literally crawl into bed with Putin just to spite the Americans, even if that means completely sabotaging EU's energy security.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:03 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
This is not about money. If you read up on the case there is little business case for the Nord Stream 2 and a lot of geoplitics. As Churchill accurately observed "The Hun is either at your feet or at your throat"... Germany is probably in the "at Russia's feet" stage of their foreign policy at the moment, naively believing appeasement will tame Putin (the same way they believed misguided Ostpolitik will soften up Brezhnev or Honecker :roll: :roll: ). Also, the mainstream German politics is so deranged about the US the last 20 or so years, they are willing to literally crawl into bed with Putin just to spite the Americans, even if that means completely sabotaging EU's energy security.


Colour me shocked. Merkel's remarks show that they're already in a bind here. Putin still staying ahead of everyone. Germany buys "energy security". Putin wins geopolitical leeway from the EU's largest and most influential power. And the US of course, loses potential gas sales. Things are right where Putin would want them to be.

Whether Navalny survives is probably not too much of a concern to him. He knows that everybody knows. But he, for sure, gets his critics spooked by the unexpected and most unpleasant methods.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:37 am

Has anyone seen the man in the W.H.s response to this heinous crime. Surely I missed it somehow. :sarcastic:
 
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scbriml
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:08 pm

BBC is reporting that the German government is now saying that Navalny was poisoned with Novichok.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54002880
Russian opposition politician Alexei Navalny was poisoned with a Novichok nerve agent, Germany's government says.

Toxicology tests had shown "unequivocal proof" of a chemical nerve agent from the Novichok group, it said.


I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked. :liar:
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:46 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
Has anyone seen the man in the W.H.s response to this heinous crime. Surely I missed it somehow. :sarcastic:


You did, he said: 'Why didn't I think of that?'...
:duck:
 
T4thH
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German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:17 pm

Russian ambassador in Berlin is officially requested to come to the German government (Ministry of foreign affairs).

Chancellor Merkel: "Alexej Nawalny wurde Opfer eines Verbrechens"->"Alexej Nawalny is the victim of a crime".

It was one of the "Nowitschok group agents", (as expected). It is only unexpected, that Charite hospital was able to prove it. Regular, the Nowitschok group members have been developed, to make it difficult to identify the agent or the degradation products after view hours.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/nawalny-vergiftung-ermittlungen-charite-merkel-1.5018616

The official statement by the German government: "der zweifelsfreie Nachweis"-> "proven without a doubt".

Link to official statement by German government, in German:
https://twitter.com/RegSprecher/status/1301152939243958273/photo/1

The Nowitschok agent was identified in a specialized lab of the German army.
(all information in the link above)
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:33 am

Yeah, if Merkel wants to do something, she’ll shutdown Russian gas imports, open up the nuclear power generation, assist Poland and other EU nations to get going on shale gas extraction. Then, get the EU to pressure the US to strangle Russia’s economy by ending their access to dollars. Oh, get BoJo to deport the rich Russians from London and southern England.

But, she’ll put out a wet spatzele and whip the Russian ambassador with it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:08 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Oh, get BoJo to deport the rich Russians from London and southern England.


Does this include kicking them out of NYC, MIA and Socal/LAS real estate too?
 
ltbewr
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:59 am

The use of a nerve agent to attack someone is an intentional act of sick and inhumane torture. Sure they could just shoot him, arrange for 'an accident', but Russia's leaders wants their citizens to fear that if they challenge the leaders, they too will face similar torturous ruin of their lives and possibly a painful death. I suspect the Russian leaders allowed Navalny to go to Germany for treatment to make sure the world and any dissident Russians living outside of Russia they could face the same terrifying fate.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:55 am

Oops. Another couple of agents just got the boot (or worse). :wideeyed:
 
Sokes
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Re: Putin Opponent Alexei Navalny Apparently Poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:32 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Also, the mainstream German politics is so deranged about the US the last 20 or so years, they are willing to literally crawl into bed with Putin just to spite the Americans, even if that means completely sabotaging EU's energy security.

Are you aware that Germany proved the poisoning?

Why does crawling into bed with Putin sabotages EU energy security?
Why completely? Will all other countries refuse to sell energy to Germany?

Do you know about Atlantikbrücke? No German government wants to spite the Americans.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:10 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Oh, get BoJo to deport the rich Russians from London and southern England.


Does this include kicking them out of NYC, MIA and Socal/LAS real estate too?


Yes. Everyday the Russians remind us why in 1945 stopping at the Elbe was Ike’s worst decision.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:48 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Oh, get BoJo to deport the rich Russians from London and southern England.


Does this include kicking them out of NYC, MIA and Socal/LAS real estate too?


Yes. Everyday the Russians remind us why in 1945 stopping at the Elbe was Ike’s worst decision.


I don’t think the real estate industry would like that very much - they’d accuse you of interfering in the marketplace.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:07 pm

I don’t care, remove their visas and the Russians are not allowed entry, what they do with their property is up to them. Brokers could make money selling after pocketing money on the buy side. Russia is no less a nasty piece of work than they were as the USSR.

BTW, it is not interference to keep undesirables out of the country at the border.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:15 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I don’t care, remove their visas and the Russians are not allowed entry, what they do with their property is up to them. Brokers could make money selling after pocketing money on the buy side. Russia is no less a nasty piece of work than they were as the USSR.

BTW, it is not interference to keep undesirables out of the country at the border.


Not as shrewd as Chinese investors - we have tried for years in CA to stop non-resident owners abroad from sitting on properties here without renting then out, but the $$$ talks and no new laws. Wouldn’t make a dent anyway since many install American relatives as managers w/POA.
 
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Erebus
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:28 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Oops. Another couple of agents just got the boot (or worse). :wideeyed:


Could be a pair of valenki boots and a ticket to some frozen far off place. :cold:
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:07 pm

What do you know.
Standard modus operandi of the Putin regime, and the standard impotens of the EU.

The right thing would be for the Germans to abandon the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline.

But I expect another display of hypocricy with big words and no action.
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:11 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I don’t care, remove their visas and the Russians are not allowed entry


:lol:

Just imagined you stomping your feet and hitting some fists on the table while saying that. Sad understanding of politics you have there, thankfully you’re not at the head of it.

Russia should be held accountable if the poisoning (if proved) was their work. But the Germans should start by sharing the bio-material first. Perhaps with multiple nations, including Russia.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:31 am

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54039710

Trump refuses to condemn Russia over poisoning


Almost as predictable as the poisoning itself and Putin's denial...
:sarcastic:
 
alfa164
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:07 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Oh, get BoJo to deport the rich Russians from London and southern England.

Does this include kicking them out of NYC, MIA and Socal/LAS real estate too?


That can't happen; Trump Tower would lose half its tenants.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trumps-businesses-are-full-of-dirty-russian-money-the-scandal-is-thats-legal/2019/03/29/11b812da-5171-11e9-88a1-ed346f0ec94f_story.html


Francoflier wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54039710
Trump refuses to condemn Russia over poisoning

Almost as predictable as the poisoning itself and Putin's denial...
:sarcastic:


I am shocked!
 
bennett123
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:02 pm

The latest from the White House.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-can ... ting-story

'President Donald Trump has refused to condemn Russia over the poisoning of opposition figure Alexei Navalny, saying he has not seen proof'.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:11 pm

Aeroflot777 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I don’t care, remove their visas and the Russians are not allowed entry


:lol:

Just imagined you stomping your feet and hitting some fists on the table while saying that. Sad understanding of politics you have there, thankfully you’re not at the head of it.

Russia should be held accountable if the poisoning (if proved) was their work. But the Germans should start by sharing the bio-material first. Perhaps with multiple nations, including Russia.


So, the US and the EU should do nothing to punish Putin’s continuing murderous acts? Hitting rich Russians many of whom are Putin allies would at least show the Kremlin there’s consequences for their criminal government. What’s sad is your apologies for the thugs.
 
bgm
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:40 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aeroflot777 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I don’t care, remove their visas and the Russians are not allowed entry


:lol:

Just imagined you stomping your feet and hitting some fists on the table while saying that. Sad understanding of politics you have there, thankfully you’re not at the head of it.

Russia should be held accountable if the poisoning (if proved) was their work. But the Germans should start by sharing the bio-material first. Perhaps with multiple nations, including Russia.


So, the US and the EU should do nothing to punish Putin’s continuing murderous acts? Hitting rich Russians many of whom are Putin allies would at least show the Kremlin there’s consequences for their criminal government. What’s sad is your apologies for the thugs.


Just out of curiosity, as a Trump supporter do you support his refusal to condemn it?
 
Reinhardt
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:02 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aeroflot777 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I don’t care, remove their visas and the Russians are not allowed entry


:lol:

Just imagined you stomping your feet and hitting some fists on the table while saying that. Sad understanding of politics you have there, thankfully you’re not at the head of it.

Russia should be held accountable if the poisoning (if proved) was their work. But the Germans should start by sharing the bio-material first. Perhaps with multiple nations, including Russia.


So, the US and the EU should do nothing to punish Putin’s continuing murderous acts? Hitting rich Russians many of whom are Putin allies would at least show the Kremlin there’s consequences for their criminal government. What’s sad is your apologies for the thugs.


UK govenment won't do it. Too many best buddies of Tory MP's are rich Russians, many with dodgy pasts / family links. Ex KGB's / newspaper owner Alexander Lebedev' son is best friends with Boris. Look at the investigation into Russian involvement in UK Elections / Brexit. Deliberately delayed, Govenment tried to peddle the chair of the Intelligence Committee and then when the report is released, refuse to do anything.

Russian money has been actively persued by the Conversatives for the last decade or more. There needs to be wholesale change at the top of UK politics before they'll actually do anything substantial to these types of people.

Germany seems tied in with the pipeline, because they screwed up on Nuclear power because of the Greens. But Germany has the most coal power stations in Europe. Utterly nuts.
 
Redd
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:37 am

ltbewr wrote:
The use of a nerve agent to attack someone is an intentional act of sick and inhumane torture. Sure they could just shoot him, arrange for 'an accident', but Russia's leaders wants their citizens to fear that if they challenge the leaders,


I can't fathom how some people haven't yet realized that complete freedom and democracy don't work in every culture and country. Russia and China for example, need to rule with a heavy hand to have the progress and stability they have. It is what it is.

As soon as you get rid of the strong leader you get what is happened in Yeltsin's Russia, everything for sale cheap, you buy, build McDonald's, chaos and poverty, vodka vodka na zdrowie.. Every place the USA intervened and got rid of the dictator in the past 20 years is a total mess right now with no end to the mess in sight. Or every post Arab Spring country as well, with some cases to only a slightly lesser degree.

I'll venture to go as far as Americans need a strong heavy-handed leader right now to stop the country from ripping itself apart. Ever wondered who's funding BLM? A convicted terrorist & murder, self'declared communist and anarchist is in charge of BLM funding, unless you're smarter than me and think that that is just a coincidence you know that BLM is here to destabilize America.

Alexei Navalny was probably on the CIA payroll, or maybe he wasn't. Either way we'll never know. Putin will protect what he thinks is his and run things the way he thinks is right, that might be shitty but I guarantee you that you won't see people rioting and burning tens of thousands of businesses and cars on the street there.

If things are to change in Russia, the person/people who change it aren't going to be in public opposition to Putin. I think that much has been made clear.
 
Newark727
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:08 am

Redd wrote:
I can't fathom how some people haven't yet realized that complete freedom and democracy don't work in every culture and country. Russia and China for example, need to rule with a heavy hand to have the progress and stability they have. It is what it is.

As soon as you get rid of the strong leader you get what is happened in Yeltsin's Russia, everything for sale cheap, you buy, build McDonald's, chaos and poverty, vodka vodka na zdrowie.. Every place the USA intervened and got rid of the dictator in the past 20 years is a total mess right now with no end to the mess in sight. Or every post Arab Spring country as well, with some cases to only a slightly lesser degree.

I'll venture to go as far as Americans need a strong heavy-handed leader right now to stop the country from ripping itself apart. Ever wondered who's funding BLM? A convicted terrorist & murder, self'declared communist and anarchist is in charge of BLM funding, unless you're smarter than me and think that that is just a coincidence you know that BLM is here to destabilize America.

Alexei Navalny was probably on the CIA payroll, or maybe he wasn't. Either way we'll never know. Putin will protect what he thinks is his and run things the way he thinks is right, that might be shitty but I guarantee you that you won't see people rioting and burning tens of thousands of businesses and cars on the street there.

If things are to change in Russia, the person/people who change it aren't going to be in public opposition to Putin. I think that much has been made clear.


I hope it's within the rules to say that this post is goddamn horrific. There is no rational argument that putting a million people in prison to forcibly erase their culture as China does, or assassinating dissidents on foreign soil as Russia does, is necessary for either country's "progress" or "stability." You aren't arguing for the atrocities directly, of course - but you are arguing for the necessity of governments with power unlimited enough to commit them. Because... some people (and what are cultures and countries, if not people) just aren't fit for democracy, or something? That's absurd. Ask an American in 1942 whether the Japanese culture is fit for democracy. Or ask an American in 1850 whether black people are fit for democracy. And what was the Arab Spring, if not proof that these "strong heavy-handed leaders" are profoundly fragile in spite of their brutality? If anything, Russia argues that authoritarian regimes are terrible for preventing riots and unrest. The Tsars and the Soviets both seemed impregnable until they suddenly vanished, leaving chaos in their wake that makes Kenosha look like a pleasant stroll through the park. Has Putin really prevented "tens of thousands of burned cars and businesses," or simply delayed them for a few years, to resume when he dies?
 
Redd
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Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:33 am

Newark727 wrote:
I hope it's within the rules to say that this post is goddamn horrific.



Did I mention that I support it? Or did I just underline the reality of the situation based on the history of those nations?

Since when did laying out a situation for what it is become god-damn horrific, should we just pretend otherwise?

The fact that you really really believe that democracy is the way to go for every country, doesn't make it so. At least in its current form, it doesn't even seem to be good for the USA.

You can guess and assume at the future all you want, but when we have country after country turning to chaos as a result of US intervention and the toppling of dictators, the fact is that millions of people are suffering more under their so called democratic system than under the previous dictatorial system.

Do you really want millions of people to suffer because you have a fluffy warm dream of how good democracy is for these people? That attitude led the mess that we have now in these countries. People like you who refused to educate themselves on the actual culture they were trying to change. Refusing to look at the history to predict the future. It's your attitude that is tyrannical, I hope you see that you are absolutely fine with millions of people suffering because you think you know what is better for them.

I'd also like to point out that Japan ranks just about the lowest on the happiness index among developed 1st world nations. I'm sure you don't care about that too because it doesn't suit your narrative?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:11 am

Redd wrote:
I can't fathom how some people haven't yet realized that complete freedom and democracy don't work in every culture and country. Russia and China for example, need to rule with a heavy hand to have the progress and stability they have. It is what it is.


This view is a view I hear from others. I do not subscribe to it. I think it is a kind of demining for the citizens of these countries. I mean your bias is: they need a strong figure and limiting their civil rights to have progress and stability. As if those two were mutually exclusive, you can't have both.
Perhaps Freddy Heineken / Henk Wesseling were right by saying, you need to carve up the world in pieces of around 5 - 10million inhabitants. And China and Russia are too big for a centralized government.
 
Redd
Posts: 1408
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Redd wrote:
I can't fathom how some people haven't yet realized that complete freedom and democracy don't work in every culture and country. Russia and China for example, need to rule with a heavy hand to have the progress and stability they have. It is what it is.


This view is a view I hear from others. I do not subscribe to it. I think it is a kind of demining for the citizens of these countries. I mean your bias is: they need a strong figure and limiting their civil rights to have progress and stability. As if those two were mutually exclusive, you can't have both.
Perhaps Freddy Heineken / Henk Wesseling were right by saying, you need to carve up the world in pieces of around 5 - 10million inhabitants. And China and Russia are too big for a centralized government.


The fact is I don't know what it means, you don't know what it means, but based on historical and recent evidence it is what it is.This is a never ending conversation, but the point is that all these countries the US and coalition forces have stuffed democracy on are MUCH worse off and their citizens are MUCH worse off.

IF you can justify all these years of suffering because democracy, then using the scientific method we'd determine that in these places' democracy = chaos and suffering. That might change, but that is the current situation.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2619
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: German government concludes that Putin opponent Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:26 pm

Redd wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
I hope it's within the rules to say that this post is goddamn horrific.



Did I mention that I support it? Or did I just underline the reality of the situation based on the history of those nations?

Since when did laying out a situation for what it is become god-damn horrific, should we just pretend otherwise?

The fact that you really really believe that democracy is the way to go for every country, doesn't make it so. At least in its current form, it doesn't even seem to be good for the USA.

You can guess and assume at the future all you want, but when we have country after country turning to chaos as a result of US intervention and the toppling of dictators, the fact is that millions of people are suffering more under their so called democratic system than under the previous dictatorial system.

Do you really want millions of people to suffer because you have a fluffy warm dream of how good democracy is for these people? That attitude led the mess that we have now in these countries. People like you who refused to educate themselves on the actual culture they were trying to change. Refusing to look at the history to predict the future. It's your attitude that is tyrannical, I hope you see that you are absolutely fine with millions of people suffering because you think you know what is better for them.

I'd also like to point out that Japan ranks just about the lowest on the happiness index among developed 1st world nations. I'm sure you don't care about that too because it doesn't suit your narrative?


So you don't support despots, you just explain why they're unavoidable and the alternatives are worse. Distinction without a difference. And let me tell you there's more than one way to be naive - for example, believing that you won't be the one whose neck is under the jackboot.

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