Last post deleted without cause or explanation. This is NOT a debate over Kenosha, but the larger picture on hand. If a mod feels the need to silence again, at lease detail why.

Is Kenosha the perfect example?

- Black man with violent felony warrants has police called on him for disturbance
- Police shoot black man multiple times in back
- Black mans lawyer intentionally misrepresents circumstances
- Media intentionally misrepresents circumstances
- Rioters torch city
- White teenager crosses state lines with illegally owned weapon to engage rioters
- White teenager executes two rioters in the name of self defense
- Government leaders refuse to protect citizens and protesters alike
- Government leaders unwilling to stop rioters

Wash, rinse, repeat. Kenosha today, what tomorrow? What happens on November 3rd when EITHER wins? All parties shooting first and failing to ask questions later. No one is sincere, no one wants solutions, everyone wants to be the victim, it’s all bullshit and this country is done.

Discuss.

It is impossible to predict the future, but it never hurts to be prepared. If the government isn't going to protect you, you have to be prepared to be able to protect yourself. There's a reason why gun purchases are surging right now...people are getting smart.

You’re not going big picture enough - a lot of things people are mad about were legally solved in the 1960s - CRA, VRA, etc. Implementing those laws has not been consistent, and POC have a legitimate beef with that. Overreaction to that situation led to affirmative action, and folks have a legitimate beef with that. Meanwhile the economy has changed.

Middle class jobs are not widely available where they once were. Regardless of what any populist promises, they won’t return unless host business is wildly profitable. In the 1960s, regardless of color, if you could secure a decent job, you could afford a home to raise kids in and your wife generally didn’t need to go back to work until they were school-aged. We don’t have that kind of economy anymore - expenses increase faster than wages as a general rule. As COVID has shown, those with means continue to do fine, with everyone else fighting for limited resources. That in of itself is the powderkeg.

Yeah, let's see... Decades of corrupt governance that did nothing to try to bridge the growing economic disparities or maintain a decent level of education for lower classes, add to that the horribly unprofessional police force acting like untrained vigilantes with racist undertones.

There's your fuel, and there's your spark.

This is only the manifestation of a long running mentality of refusing to acknowledge an issue by just blaming the poor and minorities for their own problems.

Jetsgo wrote:

Last post deleted without cause or explanation. This is NOT a debate over Kenosha, but the larger picture on hand. If a mod feels the need to silence again, at lease detail why.

Is Kenosha the perfect example?

- Black man with violent felony warrants has police called on him for disturbance
- Police shoot black man multiple times in back
- Black mans lawyer intentionally misrepresents circumstances
- Media intentionally misrepresents circumstances
- Rioters torch city
- White teenager crosses state lines with illegally owned weapon to engage rioters
- White teenager executes two rioters in the name of self defense
- Government leaders refuse to protect citizens and protesters alike
- Government leaders unwilling to stop rioters

Wash, rinse, repeat. Kenosha today, what tomorrow? What happens on November 3rd when EITHER wins? All parties shooting first and failing to ask questions later. No one is sincere, no one wants solutions, everyone wants to be the victim, it’s all bullshit and this country is done.

Discuss.

You've described the Kenosha events very sympathetically towards the 17 year old militia gunman and negatively towards the original police shooting victim and those protesting his shooting.

Maybe that's because America is so divided now you can live in a bubble where all your media, information, social media, friends and family group only serve to re-enforce your biases and worldview. Everyone else is brainwashed and reacts before thinking, but not you or those who think like you.

Yes the United States of America is so fractured that it is in a cold civil war in my opinion. Red staters probably glad those in blue states were dying of Covid at first, and Blue staters probably glad when the pandemic began affecting the reds.

The US won't be able to heal this rift now for a generation or two and become mired in internal hatred and division. I foresee China taking over from the US as the world's influential political power. Honestly that's happening at this moment.

It's probably better for the US to break off into two separate states. Red and Blue.

Francoflier wrote:

Yeah, let's see... Decades of corrupt governance that did nothing to try to bridge the growing economic disparities or maintain a decent level of education for lower classes, add to that the horribly unprofessional police force acting like untrained vigilantes with racist undertones.

There's your fuel, and there's your spark.

This is only the manifestation of a long running mentality of refusing to acknowledge an issue by just blaming the poor and minorities for their own problems.

Absolutely - few Americans are interested in even brainstorming what kind of structural change would transform our poorest communities. Out of sight, out of mind - just a punchline of places to never drive through.

Aaron747 wrote:

You’re not going big picture enough - a lot of things people are mad about were legally solved in the 1960s - CRA, VRA, etc. Implementing those laws has not been consistent, and POC have a legitimate beef with that. Overreaction to that situation led to affirmative action, and folks have a legitimate beef with that. Meanwhile the economy has changed.

Middle class jobs are not widely available where they once were. Regardless of what any populist promises, they won’t return unless host business is wildly profitable. In the 1960s, regardless of color, if you could secure a decent job, you could afford a home to raise kids in and your wife generally didn’t need to go back to work until they were school-aged. We don’t have that kind of economy anymore - expenses increase faster than wages as a general rule. As COVID has shown, those with means continue to do fine, with everyone else fighting for limited resources. That in of itself is the powderkeg.

In a nutshell, you are absolutely correct. When I left school in 1957, there were jobs everywhere and in 1958 there was a recession, but the economy always came roaring back, and then Nixon opened up China and greed took over the usual Corporate mentality and now we have the populace seething with unrest. The old historical haves and have not's. When the balance of have not's get too numerous, we have what we have now and with a Buffoon and his Circus running the show, we are seeing violence. Remember the French Revolution. Let them eat cake does not cut it then or now.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

You've described the Kenosha events very sympathetically towards the 17 year old militia gunman and negatively towards the original police shooting victim and those protesting his shooting.

Maybe that's because America is so divided now you can live in a bubble where all your media, information, social media, friends and family group only serve to re-enforce your biases and worldview. Everyone else is brainwashed and reacts before thinking, but not you or those who think like you..

To quote Bruce Willis in the all time a Christmas classic Die Hard, “If you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem. Quit being a part of the fucking problem.”

Quote to me EXACTLY where I described “very sympathetically towards the 17 year old militia gunman and negatively towards the original police shooting victim and those protesting his shooting.”

Jetsgo wrote:

Quote to me EXACTLY where I described “very sympathetically towards the 17 year old militia gunman and negatively towards the original police shooting victim and those protesting his shooting.”

It's all about your choice of language.
"Rioters" instead of "Protesters"
"in the name of self defense" (first shooting was not self defense)
Black Man's Lawyer "intentionally" misrepresented circumstances (no evidence of that)
Implying the man shot by police had police called on him for violent felony warrants (it was as part of a neighborhood dispute)
"Government leaders refuse to protect citizens and protesters" (protesters aren't citizens?)
"media intentionally misrepresenting circumstances" (what direct evidence of this?)
"Government leaders unwilling to stop rioters" (they sent in Police in Armored Vehicles for pete's sake)

Your omission of the video evidence of police handing out water bottles to the militiamen and thanking them for their assistance, but failing to arrest the shooter when he walked past police vehicles with a rifle whilst witnesses were shouting to police that he had shot somebody.

What a load of BS the tone of this post is. White teenager kills in self defense. Embarassing

sierrakilo44 wrote:

Jetsgo wrote:

Quote to me EXACTLY where I described “very sympathetically towards the 17 year old militia gunman and negatively towards the original police shooting victim and those protesting his shooting.”

It's all about your choice of language.
"Rioters" instead of "Protesters"
"in the name of self defense" (first shooting was not self defense)
Black Man's Lawyer "intentionally" misrepresented circumstances (no evidence of that)
Implying the man shot by police had police called on him for violent felony warrants (it was as part of a neighborhood dispute)
"Government leaders refuse to protect citizens and protesters" (protesters aren't citizens?)
"media intentionally misrepresenting circumstances" (what direct evidence of this?)
"Government leaders unwilling to stop rioters" (they sent in Police in Armored Vehicles for pete's sake)

Your omission of the video evidence of police handing out water bottles to the militiamen and thanking them for their assistance, but failing to arrest the shooter when he walked past police vehicles with a rifle whilst witnesses were shouting to police that he had shot somebody.

Exactly, transparent as hell what he is trying do here. And then closes off by saying what happens in November when either side loses. Using the same both sides argument as that dumbass in the white house. The only side thats violent here, or has the inclination to turn violent based on results in November is the racist in chief and his supporters. He is already riling them up for the result in a few months and like the dumbasses they are, they are eating that shit up

Francoflier wrote:

Yeah, let's see... Decades of corrupt governance that did nothing to try to bridge the growing economic disparities or maintain a decent level of education for lower classes, add to that the horribly unprofessional police force acting like untrained vigilantes with racist undertones.

There's your fuel, and there's your spark.

This is only the manifestation of a long running mentality of refusing to acknowledge an issue by just blaming the poor and minorities for their own problems.

Good post.

One of the largest drivers of the generational wealth in the US was the financial opportunities offered to returning military after WWII in the form of education grants and extremely generous mortgages and small business loans. Thanks to Red Lining, Jim Crow laws etc these were nearly always denied to returning black soldiers and sailors, and the ones able to make use of them still faced substantial hurdles in making use of them.

Thirty years after the war, the parents of white baby boomers were seeing their housing costs drop to almost zero with their mortgages paid off and had been seeing their housing costs effectively decrease as salaries rose throughout. On the other hand, the people who'd been denied the same financial leg up had spent thirty years paying rent that continued to rise with or faster than inflation, or at best were paying off much higher interest rate mortgages on less valuable property.
For much of those 30 years there is still a big disparity in job opportunities for otherwise equally qualified workers, so the gap between gets bigger and bigger.

Then in the 1980s comes the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs to Asia, which always hurts the communities who have those jobs the most. So you have a huge disparity in wealth and, in conjunction with that, the neoliberal "reforms"of the 1980s generally always involved cuts to social spending which harms the poor much more than the wealthy.

And then nowadays everyone seems to go out of their way to not see the perspective of the other side, to not empathise with others. The reality is that, like it or not, if you were born into a white middle class family in the 50s/60s/70s you're very unlikely to have a better idea of what it's like to be grow up in a poor, underprivileged community than a person of colour who actually lived that experience.

I didn't grow up in a poor, underprivileged community, so I'm not going to go around telling people of colour that everything is their own fault, or to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" etc.

zkojq wrote:

Francoflier wrote:

Yeah, let's see... Decades of corrupt governance that did nothing to try to bridge the growing economic disparities or maintain a decent level of education for lower classes, add to that the horribly unprofessional police force acting like untrained vigilantes with racist undertones.

There's your fuel, and there's your spark.

This is only the manifestation of a long running mentality of refusing to acknowledge an issue by just blaming the poor and minorities for their own problems.

Good post.

One of the largest drivers of the generational wealth in the US was the financial opportunities offered to returning military after WWII in the form of education grants and extremely generous mortgages and small business loans. Thanks to Red Lining, Jim Crow laws etc these were nearly always denied to returning black soldiers and sailors, and the ones able to make use of them still faced substantial hurdles in making use of them.

Thirty years after the war, the parents of white baby boomers were seeing their housing costs drop to almost zero with their mortgages paid off and had been seeing their housing costs effectively decrease as salaries rose throughout. On the other hand, the people who'd been denied the same financial leg up had spent thirty years paying rent that continued to rise with or faster than inflation, or at best were paying off much higher interest rate mortgages on less valuable property.
For much of those 30 years there is still a big disparity in job opportunities for otherwise equally qualified workers, so the gap between gets bigger and bigger.

Then in the 1980s comes the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs to Asia, which always hurts the communities who have those jobs the most. So you have a huge disparity in wealth and, in conjunction with that, the neoliberal "reforms"of the 1980s generally always involved cuts to social spending which harms the poor much more than the wealthy.

And then nowadays everyone seems to go out of their way to not see the perspective of the other side, to not empathise with others. The reality is that, like it or not, if you were born into a white middle class family in the 50s/60s/70s you're very unlikely to have a better idea of what it's like to be grow up in a poor, underprivileged community than a person of colour who actually lived that experience.

I didn't grow up in a poor, underprivileged community, so I'm not going to go around telling people of colour that everything is their own fault, or to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" etc.

Masterful post. Everyone wants to just pretend that these structural problems are not a part of our socioeconomic makeup.

I think a big part of the problem is the political parties are so out of touch with the people they represent, look at the presidential candidates both are wealthy white men who are very old, how are they supposed to relate to anyone who isn't old wealthy and white?

Kiwirob wrote:

I think a big part of the problem is the political parties are so out of touch with the people they represent, look at the presidential candidates both are wealthy white men who are very old, how are they supposed to relate to anyone who isn't old wealthy and white?

At least in Biden’s case, he was upper middle class until his 60s. He did not become wealthy until speaking engagements and book deals came his way after the Obama presidency. That said you are correct - my generation regards both of them as old and out of touch with how we think.

USA still thinks that 60s was great for workers in USA. The fact was that a major part of the population majorly Black was not allowed to enter the middle class.

The only solution in my eyes is to enable free higher education. Give the lower class a fair chance to send their children and grandchildren into the middle class.

This will cost and it is the current middle class that will pay for it. But in the long term it will be cheaper then buying arms and see your middle class kids using drugs.

olle wrote:

USA still thinks that 60s was great for workers in USA. The fact was that a major part of the population majorly Black was not allowed to enter the middle class.

The only solution in my eyes is to enable free higher education. Give the lower class a fair chance to send their children and grandchildren into the middle class.

This will cost and it is the current middle class that will pay for it. But in the long term it will be cheaper then buying arms and see your middle class kids using drugs.

Your points are too simplistic. Generally speaking there is free public education in low-income areas. The issue is that budgets are derived from property tax revenues so public schools in such areas have poorly maintained facilities and low resources versus schools in high income areas. Another issue is poorly performing schools can lose accreditation, so the ‘star’ students from such schools will have to travel further to an accredited school if they want to be eligible for university. Thirdly lower income parents are often not able to afford after-school care and are up a creek if they don’t have relatives who can help.

These issues have been consistent structural challenges in education for at least five decades - and they also exist in low income white areas. High school graduation rates are not impressive through much of the rural south, for example. Each state is responsible for setting education policy so approaches to these issues will vary considerably by region.

olle wrote:

The only solution in my eyes is to enable free higher education. Give the lower class a fair chance to send their children and grandchildren into the middle class.

Higher education for all is not going to work, there are not enough jobs that require a higher education. Maybe expand on vocational training, a bit like the German model.

Besides, the problem is more basic. Someone won't benefit from higher education if their basic education was poor.

Create a realistic baseline standard which elementary schools should achieve. Just the basic three R's and the scientific method. I don't care whether that's done on a state- or federal level.

Above all, teach the scientific method. Including and above all how and why to verify your sources. Don't necessarily leave out religious teaching, but do seperate religious and scientific classes. Lastly, make sure everyone knows which classes are religious and which are scientific.

US police (meaning thousands of various police departments, which is a problem in itself) must learn deescalation.

In 1979, infamous gangster/killer Jacques Mesrine, who claimed to have killed 43 people, was gunned down by French police, similarly to how Bonnie and Clyde were killed in 1934.

To this day this is controversial in France. Police isn't supposed to shoot people. It's a last resort. Police doesn't get guns out at the first opportunity. Very often in France a knife welding person will be subdued with no shooting and no guns drawn. Even gun wielding people are not always shot at. A few terrorists/madmen have been shot in the last few years while attacking police with a knife, not always fatally, and this is controversial already.

Jetsgo wrote:

Last post deleted without cause or explanation. This is NOT a debate over Kenosha, but the larger picture on hand. If a mod feels the need to silence again, at lease detail why.

Is Kenosha the perfect example?

- Black man with violent felony warrants has police called on him for disturbance
- Police shoot black man multiple times in back
- Black mans lawyer intentionally misrepresents circumstances
- Media intentionally misrepresents circumstances
- Rioters torch city
- White teenager crosses state lines with illegally owned weapon to engage rioters
- White teenager executes two rioters in the name of self defense
- Government leaders refuse to protect citizens and protesters alike
- Government leaders unwilling to stop rioters

Wash, rinse, repeat. Kenosha today, what tomorrow? What happens on November 3rd when EITHER wins? All parties shooting first and failing to ask questions later. No one is sincere, no one wants solutions, everyone wants to be the victim, it’s all bullshit and this country is done.

Discuss.

Simple answer: yes.

We are witnessing the demise of an empire. That has nothing to do with the exact current events, but more with trends in history. Simply put: the 19th century we saw the UK as the dominant power in the world, in the 20th century: America and in the 21st century it will be China. At the moment we are in a transition period. The election of Trump was a consequence of this. You see that people in the US are uneasy with this transition and clink to hope that a "strong" man will save the day: populist movement and talking tuff against China and the like. But in the end, this transition is inevitable. So the choice is: adapt to the new reality or put yourself behind the curve.

As for the current events, the citizens of the US should unite and make sure that all people have equal opportunities. Inequality in pay (for 40years the middle class hasn't seen a real pay raise and the excess wealth goes to the top 10% or 1%). A good education is private, good health care is private, good housing is private. The public sector has been undermined: education (proven that that is one of the most profitable investments a society can make), infrastructure (again a must for a good function society) and social security (give people a safety net to have a decent society and not let people live in fear).
Currently social mobility is less than in many other developed countries and that is not a good thing. Not for society at large: talent is not being used, not for the community: unrest because of frustration, not for the individual: frustration of not being able to move ahead. Bring back the real American dream.

It is for the citizens of the US to make a choice what kind of society they want. Just continue on this path of self discruction or build a society for the 21st century.

The thread start is a great example of the divisive, propagandistic right wing twisting and mangling of words and logic to fit their narrative and make right wrong, and wrong right just enough so that it has a populistic appeal to those that aren’t informed enough, or haven’t checked their privilege enough, or just doesn’t care ebough to recognize and be frightened of the techniques from the right-wing/fascist wave from a hundred years back showing it’s full effectiveness in our own time.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

Jetsgo wrote:

Quote to me EXACTLY where I described “very sympathetically towards the 17 year old militia gunman and negatively towards the original police shooting victim and those protesting his shooting.”

It's all about your choice of language.
"Rioters" instead of "Protesters"
"in the name of self defense" (first shooting was not self defense)
Black Man's Lawyer "intentionally" misrepresented circumstances (no evidence of that)
Implying the man shot by police had police called on him for violent felony warrants (it was as part of a neighborhood dispute)
"Government leaders refuse to protect citizens and protesters" (protesters aren't citizens?)
"media intentionally misrepresenting circumstances" (what direct evidence of this?)
"Government leaders unwilling to stop rioters" (they sent in Police in Armored Vehicles for pete's sake)

Your omission of the video evidence of police handing out water bottles to the militiamen and thanking them for their assistance, but failing to arrest the shooter when he walked past police vehicles with a rifle whilst witnesses were shouting to police that he had shot somebody.

I haven't seen much complaining about protesters. The "rioters" are the ones causing all of the trouble and have been condemned by both sides, including Blake's family.
The first shooting looked to be clear-cut self defense....the kid was running away and being chased by an older man who had earlier in the night been filmed screaming the n-word at people and who threw what appeared to be a flaming object directly at the kid. When the object missed, the man continued sprinting towards the fleeing kid and was shot only when he was a few feet from the kid.
Blake's lawyer indeed appears to have been trying to paint a rosy picture of the encounter....making no mention of the fact that Blake's presence is what prompted the 911 call (he didn't just stumble across a fight), or that Blake was wanted for felony sexual assault, or that he was armed...
As far as the media intentionally misrepresenting circumstances, look no further than the shootings that happened two nights ago that were captured on video. Clear-cut evidence of exactly what happened and yet some "media" outlets still try to mislead people into believing that this kid just walked into a protest and started mowing people down. The media stopped caring about facts long ago.

maverick4002 wrote:

sierrakilo44 wrote:

Jetsgo wrote:

Quote to me EXACTLY where I described “very sympathetically towards the 17 year old militia gunman and negatively towards the original police shooting victim and those protesting his shooting.”

It's all about your choice of language.
"Rioters" instead of "Protesters"
"in the name of self defense" (first shooting was not self defense)
Black Man's Lawyer "intentionally" misrepresented circumstances (no evidence of that)
Implying the man shot by police had police called on him for violent felony warrants (it was as part of a neighborhood dispute)
"Government leaders refuse to protect citizens and protesters" (protesters aren't citizens?)
"media intentionally misrepresenting circumstances" (what direct evidence of this?)
"Government leaders unwilling to stop rioters" (they sent in Police in Armored Vehicles for pete's sake)

Your omission of the video evidence of police handing out water bottles to the militiamen and thanking them for their assistance, but failing to arrest the shooter when he walked past police vehicles with a rifle whilst witnesses were shouting to police that he had shot somebody.

Exactly, transparent as hell what he is trying do here. And then closes off by saying what happens in November when either side loses. Using the same both sides argument as that dumbass in the white house. The only side thats violent here, or has the inclination to turn violent based on results in November is the racist in chief and his supporters. He is already riling them up for the result in a few months and like the dumbasses they are, they are eating that shit up

Ahh the only one side is at fault argument. It’s only the right wingers causing violence in our streets right now? Really? There aren’t bad elements on both sides causing violence? Pretty interesting, but I’m not sure why Republicans are bricking cops, burning down car dealerships, have rioted for weeks in Portland, burned down parts of Minneapolis, and have rioted across the country.

The fact of the matter is EVERYONE needs to cool down and let the system at least attempt to work. The second a RUMOR of a black man getting shot comes about and the protests start, which within hours turns into burning, looting, and general criminal mischief. There was a rumor a black person was shot in Minneapolis yesterday, looting and violence. Yes, a small part of the protestors are violent, just like a small amount of right wing nut jobs get violent. The right has to own their nutjobs, and so does the left. Instead, its usually swept under the carpet. “It’s only a small amount, how many have they killed? Their just taking their economic frustrations out!” Etc etc etc.

N757ST wrote:

maverick4002 wrote:

sierrakilo44 wrote:

It's all about your choice of language.
"Rioters" instead of "Protesters"
"in the name of self defense" (first shooting was not self defense)
Black Man's Lawyer "intentionally" misrepresented circumstances (no evidence of that)
Implying the man shot by police had police called on him for violent felony warrants (it was as part of a neighborhood dispute)
"Government leaders refuse to protect citizens and protesters" (protesters aren't citizens?)
"media intentionally misrepresenting circumstances" (what direct evidence of this?)
"Government leaders unwilling to stop rioters" (they sent in Police in Armored Vehicles for pete's sake)

Your omission of the video evidence of police handing out water bottles to the militiamen and thanking them for their assistance, but failing to arrest the shooter when he walked past police vehicles with a rifle whilst witnesses were shouting to police that he had shot somebody.

Exactly, transparent as hell what he is trying do here. And then closes off by saying what happens in November when either side loses. Using the same both sides argument as that dumbass in the white house. The only side thats violent here, or has the inclination to turn violent based on results in November is the racist in chief and his supporters. He is already riling them up for the result in a few months and like the dumbasses they are, they are eating that shit up

Ahh the only one side is at fault argument. It’s only the right wingers causing violence in our streets right now? Really? There aren’t bad elements on both sides causing violence? Pretty interesting, but I’m not sure why Republicans are bricking cops, burning down car dealerships, have rioted for weeks in Portland, burned down parts of Minneapolis, and have rioted across the country.

The fact of the matter is EVERYONE needs to cool down and let the system at least attempt to work. The second a RUMOR of a black man getting shot comes about and the protests start, which within hours turns into burning, looting, and general criminal mischief. There was a rumor a black person was shot in Minneapolis yesterday, looting and violence. Yes, a small part of the protestors are violent, just like a small amount of right wing nut jobs get violent. The right has to own their nutjobs, and so does the left. Instead, its usually swept under the carpet. “It’s only a small amount, how many have they killed? Their just taking their economic frustrations out!” Etc etc etc.

Yup. Facts don't matter. Someone was shot? Was it by a cop? Let's burn down the neighborhood! Oh, wait, the person shot was shooting at the police when he was killed? Our bad....sorry about your shops. We'll do it again soon, though.

N583JB wrote:

I haven't seen much complaining about protesters.

Did you miss Trump leading the outraged right-wing bitching about NFL players taking a knee? How was that not complaining about peaceful protest?

scbriml wrote:

N583JB wrote:

I haven't seen much complaining about protesters.

Did you miss Trump leading the outraged right-wing bitching about NFL players taking a knee? How was that not complaining about peaceful protest?

Perhaps I should have said I haven't seen much recent complaining about protesters.

N583JB wrote:

N757ST wrote:

maverick4002 wrote:

Exactly, transparent as hell what he is trying do here. And then closes off by saying what happens in November when either side loses. Using the same both sides argument as that dumbass in the white house. The only side thats violent here, or has the inclination to turn violent based on results in November is the racist in chief and his supporters. He is already riling them up for the result in a few months and like the dumbasses they are, they are eating that shit up

Ahh the only one side is at fault argument. It’s only the right wingers causing violence in our streets right now? Really? There aren’t bad elements on both sides causing violence? Pretty interesting, but I’m not sure why Republicans are bricking cops, burning down car dealerships, have rioted for weeks in Portland, burned down parts of Minneapolis, and have rioted across the country.

The fact of the matter is EVERYONE needs to cool down and let the system at least attempt to work. The second a RUMOR of a black man getting shot comes about and the protests start, which within hours turns into burning, looting, and general criminal mischief. There was a rumor a black person was shot in Minneapolis yesterday, looting and violence. Yes, a small part of the protestors are violent, just like a small amount of right wing nut jobs get violent. The right has to own their nutjobs, and so does the left. Instead, its usually swept under the carpet. “It’s only a small amount, how many have they killed? Their just taking their economic frustrations out!” Etc etc etc.

Yup. Facts don't matter. Someone was shot? Was it by a cop? Let's burn down the neighborhood! Oh, wait, the person shot was shooting at the police when he was killed? Our bad....sorry about your shops. We'll do it again soon, though.

Absolutely. Point blank, bad elements on both sides are acting like children. Facts don’t matter, and everyone thinks they could do a cops job in a second. Cell phones here are a curse and a blessing. It shows acts of violence that would have been never known, but that footage is also easily edited and manipulated to illicit an emotional and political response. That’s more reason why these investigations are even more necessary, and the process should be allowed to work before people start burning shit down.

Dutchy wrote:

Jetsgo wrote:

Last post deleted without cause or explanation. This is NOT a debate over Kenosha, but the larger picture on hand. If a mod feels the need to silence again, at lease detail why.

Is Kenosha the perfect example?

- Black man with violent felony warrants has police called on him for disturbance
- Police shoot black man multiple times in back
- Black mans lawyer intentionally misrepresents circumstances
- Media intentionally misrepresents circumstances
- Rioters torch city
- White teenager crosses state lines with illegally owned weapon to engage rioters
- White teenager executes two rioters in the name of self defense
- Government leaders refuse to protect citizens and protesters alike
- Government leaders unwilling to stop rioters

Wash, rinse, repeat. Kenosha today, what tomorrow? What happens on November 3rd when EITHER wins? All parties shooting first and failing to ask questions later. No one is sincere, no one wants solutions, everyone wants to be the victim, it’s all bullshit and this country is done.

Discuss.

Simple answer: yes.

We are witnessing the demise of an empire. That has nothing to do with the exact current events, but more with trends in history. Simply put: the 19th century we saw the UK as the dominant power in the world, in the 20th century: America and in the 21st century it will be China. At the moment we are in a transition period. The election of Trump was a consequence of this. You see that people in the US are uneasy with this transition and clink to hope that a "strong" man will save the day: populist movement and talking tuff against China and the like. But in the end, this transition is inevitable. So the choice is: adapt to the new reality or put yourself behind the curve.

As for the current events, the citizens of the US should unite and make sure that all people have equal opportunities. Inequality in pay (for 40years the middle class hasn't seen a real pay raise and the excess wealth goes to the top 10% or 1%). A good education is private, good health care is private, good housing is private. The public sector has been undermined: education (proven that that is one of the most profitable investments a society can make), infrastructure (again a must for a good function society) and social security (give people a safety net to have a decent society and not let people live in fear).
Currently social mobility is less than in many other developed countries and that is not a good thing. Not for society at large: talent is not being used, not for the community: unrest because of frustration, not for the individual: frustration of not being able to move ahead. Bring back the real American dream.

It is for the citizens of the US to make a choice what kind of society they want. Just continue on this path of self discruction or build a society for the 21st century.

One can say many things about Americans that are equally true of Europeans, such as being miles apart on many subjects and sometimes even diametrically opposed. But even when Europeans are miles apart on a subject at least they try to come to a reasonable compromise even if it takes nights of negotiations (e.g. Pandemic Fund, Euro crisis fund, etc.). Americans only scream at each other and try to make the lives of "the other" as miserable as possible. No nothing negotiations. No nothing compromise.

N757ST wrote:

N583JB wrote:

N757ST wrote:

Ahh the only one side is at fault argument. It’s only the right wingers causing violence in our streets right now? Really? There aren’t bad elements on both sides causing violence? Pretty interesting, but I’m not sure why Republicans are bricking cops, burning down car dealerships, have rioted for weeks in Portland, burned down parts of Minneapolis, and have rioted across the country.

The fact of the matter is EVERYONE needs to cool down and let the system at least attempt to work. The second a RUMOR of a black man getting shot comes about and the protests start, which within hours turns into burning, looting, and general criminal mischief. There was a rumor a black person was shot in Minneapolis yesterday, looting and violence. Yes, a small part of the protestors are violent, just like a small amount of right wing nut jobs get violent. The right has to own their nutjobs, and so does the left. Instead, its usually swept under the carpet. “It’s only a small amount, how many have they killed? Their just taking their economic frustrations out!” Etc etc etc.

Yup. Facts don't matter. Someone was shot? Was it by a cop? Let's burn down the neighborhood! Oh, wait, the person shot was shooting at the police when he was killed? Our bad....sorry about your shops. We'll do it again soon, though.

Absolutely. Point blank, bad elements on both sides are acting like children. Facts don’t matter, and everyone thinks they could do a cops job in a second. Cell phones here are a curse and a blessing. It shows acts of violence that would have been never known, but that footage is also easily edited and manipulated to illicit an emotional and political response. That’s more reason why these investigations are even more necessary, and the process should be allowed to work before people start burning shit down.

Evidently in Minneapolis yesterday an armed gunman murdered someone and then committed suicide. People rioted and looted downtown because....well, reasons. I guess the cops should have shot the bullet leaving the man's gun and deflected it out of the air in the millisecond before it entered his body.

Right wingers are the unintelligent demise of this country, They don't source facts,don't verify sources, and repeat stereotypical lies to make themselves feel better.
Look at the results.

They let abusive, lying , racists , frauds take over the White House, Congress, the Senate, and Liberty University. They continue to push false narratives about Law and Order.
The events that are triggering the riots are only the tip of the iceberg, Stop and frisk, racial profiling, and a host of other issues are causing the tensions.





The Trumplicans are bringing the end of the GOP, and all those folks that have been dragging their feet about things moving to fast are going to get blown away by the whiplash,

America will be better in the end, but only once the uneducated realize they are marching to the beat of lying frauds.

scbriml wrote:

N583JB wrote:

I haven't seen much complaining about protesters.

Did you miss Trump leading the outraged right-wing bitching about NFL players taking a knee? How was that not complaining about peaceful protest?

If it was said at the Repub Convention, I missed it. I would not watch one second of that lying dreamland gathering for the extremists and the wealthy.

WarRI1 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

N583JB wrote:

I haven't seen much complaining about protesters.

Did you miss Trump leading the outraged right-wing bitching about NFL players taking a knee? How was that not complaining about peaceful protest?

If it was said at the Repub Convention, I missed it. I would not watch one second of that lying dreamland gathering for the extremists and the wealthy.

He has been bitching about the NBA for the last 2 months. It is NFL offseason right now. he will pick it up again when the season starts in September. Bone-Spurs always enjoys a flag clutching moment.

casinterest wrote:

Right wingers are the unintelligent demise of this country, They don't source facts,don't verify sources, and repeat stereotypical lies to make themselves feel better.
Look at the results.

They let abusive, lying , racists , frauds take over the White House, Congress, the Senate, and Liberty University. They continue to push false narratives about Law and Order.
The events that are triggering the riots are only the tip of the iceberg, Stop and frisk, racial profiling, and a host of other issues are causing the tensions.





The Trumplicans are bringing the end of the GOP, and all those folks that have been dragging their feet about things moving to fast are going to get blown away by the whiplash,

America will be better in the end, but only once the uneducated realize they are marching to the beat of lying frauds.

It is very difficult to solve this. I have shown relatives and friends time and again their beliefs about 45's job creation and economic prowess are false - only when they see graphs and charts do they understand the lies, but they are educated people. People are shocked to learn there was a manufacturing recession for most of 2019 - until they see quotes from manufacturing CEOs. Folks without their background just go right on believing whatever their favorite radio or TV host tells them to. Just last night in the RNC convention Eric Trump's Stepford wife claimed 4 million jobs were created for women, completely leaving out the 3 million lost since April. That's a net gain of 1 million, not four. 45 keeps claiming he 'did VA choice' for veterans, when it was signed into law by 44 in 2014. And on and on. They know they can just say whatever, and idiot followers are going to lap it up without checking or thinking for themselves. It's positively Orwellian.

Dieuwer wrote:

One can say many things about Americans that are equally true of Europeans, such as being miles apart on many subjects and sometimes even diametrically opposed. But even when Europeans are miles apart on a subject at least they try to come to a reasonable compromise even if it takes nights of negotiations (e.g. Pandemic Fund, Euro crisis fund, etc.). Americans only scream at each other and try to make the lives of "the other" as miserable as possible. No nothing negotiations. No nothing compromise.

Sure, the benefit of a bunch of small and medium countries joining forces, you cannot force your opinion upon others, so everything needs to be dealt with in negotiations.

Because of the American two-party system, things can and do get ugly: one is the victor over the other. There is no natural tendency for cooperation and thus the American politicians in general don't, as far as I can see that is (not really a close follower of American politics).

WarRI1 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

N583JB wrote:

I haven't seen much complaining about protesters.

Did you miss Trump leading the outraged right-wing bitching about NFL players taking a knee? How was that not complaining about peaceful protest?

If it was said at the Repub Convention, I missed it. I would not watch one second of that lying dreamland gathering for the extremists and the wealthy.

I wouldn’t listen or watch any politician because they’re all lying weasels.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

WarRI1 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Did you miss Trump leading the outraged right-wing bitching about NFL players taking a knee? How was that not complaining about peaceful protest?

If it was said at the Repub Convention, I missed it. I would not watch one second of that lying dreamland gathering for the extremists and the wealthy.

I wouldn’t listen or watch any politician because they’re all lying weasels.

You got that right ...They are all self serving bastards all of them...Ill admit I voted for Trump but this go around no one gets my vote..I think I am done voting no matter who gets in it never changes for people like me at least. Everything I have worked for is gonna be taken either by a tanking 401k or some cut to SS if I even l even live to see it my family everyone dies short of collecting it .

In Minneapolis, people were looting because they thought cops killed a black guy who actually took his own life. To add to your OP.

Jetsgo wrote:

Are We Witnessing The Demise of American Society

Short answer?

No.

We are not witnessing the demise of American Society. The USA has been "discussing" things it's entire history. There was a revolt, a convention, a Civil War, "Manifest Destiny", several outside wars, civil rights issues, failures and battles and riots, anti-war riots and protests, LGBTQ+ bigotry and acceptance, etc. This is nothing new nor any more horrifying than what we as a nation have experienced, been through, and overcome in the past.

"American Society" will do just fine, it will change, adjust, look different and be just fine.... at least as fine as I note it always has been. Which means we will keep doing this.

Tugg

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I wouldn’t listen or watch any politician because they’re all lying weasels.

I mean, it's hard to deny. But in the long run it's ultimately this attitude which enables politicians to act the way they do in the first place. If everyone assumes they're going to be ratfinks anyway, why aspire to anything better? Apathy leads to impunity and impunity will always eventually be abused.

Newark727 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I wouldn’t listen or watch any politician because they’re all lying weasels.

I mean, it's hard to deny. But in the long run it's ultimately this attitude which enables politicians to act the way they do in the first place. If everyone assumes they're going to be ratfinks anyway, why aspire to anything better? Apathy leads to impunity and impunity will always eventually be abused.

A part of the problem is partisanship.

People will vote for a bad person just because they are "their party". That needs to stop. Just don't it. Don't support bad people in your party (and of course you don't support bad people in other political parties). When such people get pushed up, stop and don't vote for them. And don't vote for them just because you are afraid of the other party winning, just don't vote as GF says. Keep your party, whatever you support honest and fight there. You can't fix the world, focus on keeping your house in order.

It think so many are so focused on "the other side bad, must vote against them" that we ourselves have allowed what we now have.

Tugg

Kenosha is a symptom of a much larger national disease.

If your phone number starts with 414,262, or 608, this is nothing new.

WI has been the scene of voter suppression, gerrymandering, destruction of social safety nets and union busting for years.

N757ST wrote:

The fact of the matter is EVERYONE needs to cool down and let the system at least attempt to work.

People did exactly that. Again, again, again and again. Nothing changed. Another black citizen shot in the back. Seven times. In front of his children. Insanity...

People have run out of patience and how could you possibly blame them at this point? For me, the time when I assumed the right to deny these protestors their right to be violent has passed with Floyd. The violence is horrible, but it is the only thing people have left.

Kiwirob wrote:

I think a big part of the problem is the political parties are so out of touch with the people they represent, look at the presidential candidates both are wealthy white men who are very old, how are they supposed to relate to anyone who isn't old wealthy and white?

It is interesting to note that self made people and people who actually have that working class background are generally Democrats. And what do MAGA feel and say about those people? Like AOC and Warren Buffet and Bill Clinton and Barack Obama?

Again, there are self made people who are Republicans. I think it is an interesting point.

N583JB wrote:

It is impossible to predict the future, but it never hurts to be prepared. If the government isn't going to protect you, you have to be prepared to be able to protect yourself. There's a reason why gun purchases are surging right now...people are getting smart.

The sure fire path to post-Apocalyptic America without question...a point of there is no coming back from.

This irrational line of thought is 'normal' for those see a Mad Max reality as the only solution.

Ultimately ending humankind's self-annihilation.

Lilienthal wrote:

N757ST wrote:

The fact of the matter is EVERYONE needs to cool down and let the system at least attempt to work.

People did exactly that. Again, again, again and again. Nothing changed. Another black citizen shot in the back. Seven times. In front of his children. Insanity...

People have run out of patience and how could you possibly blame them at this point? For me, the time when I assumed the right to deny these protestors their right to be violent has passed with Floyd. The violence is horrible, but it is the only thing people have left.

A simple obsevation for most but one many choose not to apply (or unable to) balanced critical thought.


BN747

BN747 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

It is impossible to predict the future, but it never hurts to be prepared. If the government isn't going to protect you, you have to be prepared to be able to protect yourself. There's a reason why gun purchases are surging right now...people are getting smart.

The sure fire path to post-Apocalyptic America without question...a point of there is no coming back from.

This irrational line of thought is 'normal' for those see a Mad Max reality as the only solution.

Ultimately ending humankind's self-annihilation.



BN747

No one is forcing you to buy a gun. If you feel you can fend for yourself unarmed if and when the police are unable to or unwilling to protect you, that is your choice.

Aaron747 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

I think a big part of the problem is the political parties are so out of touch with the people they represent, look at the presidential candidates both are wealthy white men who are very old, how are they supposed to relate to anyone who isn't old wealthy and white?

At least in Biden’s case, he was upper middle class until his 60s. He did not become wealthy until speaking engagements and book deals came his way after the Obama presidency. That said you are correct - my generation regards both of them as old and out of touch with how we think.

When you look at the voting rates of senior citizens vs. young people, is it really a surprise?

I recently listened to an interesting podcast by the German Der Spiegel magazine.

They argued that this election might be the last election that the current Republican Party - the way it's ideologically and politically oriented right now - will be able to win. They completely turned their backs on anyone who isn't lower- or middle-class white and from the Tea Party to Trump they've progressively became more and more extreme. Trump did his thing and burned every bridge there was, and now you look at the GOP convention and they're painting this horribly distorted image of American reality, catering pretty much exclusively to white conservative suburbia.

Think of it what you want but I certainly doubt the the Republican Party will have a chance in the future unless they completely swap their upper ranks and reorientate their policies to reflect a rational and inclusive conservatism.

...Unless Trump wins. Then who knows whether we'll even see another US election for quite some time...

If this is the sort of commentary shared by pundits fomenting public opinion during a time when society is a literal tinderbox that could go off at any minute, then yes, we might be about to start witnessing it:




Source

Newark727 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I wouldn’t listen or watch any politician because they’re all lying weasels.

I mean, it's hard to deny. But in the long run it's ultimately this attitude which enables politicians to act the way they do in the first place. If everyone assumes they're going to be ratfinks anyway, why aspire to anything better? Apathy leads to impunity and impunity will always eventually be abused.

Which is why the whole political class needs to be put in the box the Constitution originally envisioned and “power” remain locally or with the people. We went from a colonial backwater to an industrialized powerhouse and the Federal government never exceeded about 5% of GDP until WW I.

N583JB wrote:

BN747 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

It is impossible to predict the future, but it never hurts to be prepared. If the government isn't going to protect you, you have to be prepared to be able to protect yourself. There's a reason why gun purchases are surging right now...people are getting smart.

The sure fire path to post-Apocalyptic America without question...a point of there is no coming back from.

This irrational line of thought is 'normal' for those see a Mad Max reality as the only solution.

Ultimately ending humankind's self-annihilation.



BN747

No one is forcing you to buy a gun. If you feel you can fend for yourself unarmed if and when the police are unable to or unwilling to protect you, that is your choice.

I have one.

But that is far from my point you skillfully avoided.

Your fantasizing of a fully armed America that has only one guaranteed 'ending' ..Bad for everyone.

BN747