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c933103
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Question about BLM movement

Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:54 pm

According to my understanding, the BLM movement seek to bring justice, equality and reform to the black community living in western countries, especially in the United States.

According to my understanding, one of the key proposed aspect is to end systematic racism by the police force against black commubity by defunding the police institution.

However, what I don't understand is,
1.) How will such defunding of police force fix the problem of systemic violence against black community? Assuming the problem of systemic violence do persist in police force, defunding it would only make the police force less effective at doing their works and maybe making it harder for a black person and a police encounter, but it won't improve anything related to racism. What's the link I missed here?
2.) Other than police, what other form of actions do participants of the movement want to receive so that they can get the desired "justice, equality, reform"? What are the types of reform being anticipated?
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N583JB
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:32 pm

c933103 wrote:
According to my understanding, the BLM movement seek to bring justice, equality and reform to the black community living in western countries, especially in the United States.

According to my understanding, one of the key proposed aspect is to end systematic racism by the police force against black commubity by defunding the police institution.

However, what I don't understand is,
1.) How will such defunding of police force fix the problem of systemic violence against black community? Assuming the problem of systemic violence do persist in police force, defunding it would only make the police force less effective at doing their works and maybe making it harder for a black person and a police encounter, but it won't improve anything related to racism. What's the link I missed here?


"Defunding" the police is actually something that is opposed by most black people. In fact, a recent poll found that 80% of black people surveyed want more police in their neighborhoods, not less. "Defunding" the police is popular amongst white liberals who never have to go to the low-income, high-crime neighborhoods that they want to remove the police from.

2.) Other than police, what other form of actions do participants of the movement want to receive so that they can get the desired "justice, equality, reform"? What are the types of reform being anticipated?


I'm pretty cynical of BLM as an organization, because time and time again they have created false narratives surrounding police shootings and they have tried to portray some very bad people as "martyrs". So, part of their M.O. is to create falsehoods surrounding police shootings and then shame anyone who doesn't believe the false narrative that they are putting out. They've also taken recently to using megaphones to shout at white people eating at restaurants and other pretty unpopular actions.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:42 am

The police in the USA needs a mentality change the most. From being Rambos with Guns to serving the people in a respectful way.
 
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c933103
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:48 am

Dieuwer wrote:
The police in the USA needs a mentality change the most. From being Rambos with Guns to serving the people in a respectful way.

Yes but,
1. How do they plan to achieve this by defunding the police?
2. Have anyone proposed or protested for measures that will help such mentality change? Havr any been implemented and succeeded?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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Maloak33
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:13 am

N583JB wrote:
c933103 wrote:
According to my understanding, the BLM movement seek to bring justice, equality and reform to the black community living in western countries, especially in the United States.

According to my understanding, one of the key proposed aspect is to end systematic racism by the police force against black commubity by defunding the police institution.

However, what I don't understand is,
1.) How will such defunding of police force fix the problem of systemic violence against black community? Assuming the problem of systemic violence do persist in police force, defunding it would only make the police force less effective at doing their works and maybe making it harder for a black person and a police encounter, but it won't improve anything related to racism. What's the link I missed here?


"Defunding" the police is actually something that is opposed by most black people. In fact, a recent poll found that 80% of black people surveyed want more police in their neighborhoods, not less. "Defunding" the police is popular amongst white liberals who never have to go to the low-income, high-crime neighborhoods that they want to remove the police from.

2.) Other than police, what other form of actions do participants of the movement want to receive so that they can get the desired "justice, equality, reform"? What are the types of reform being anticipated?


I'm pretty cynical of BLM as an organization, because time and time again they have created false narratives surrounding police shootings and they have tried to portray some very bad people as "martyrs". So, part of their M.O. is to create falsehoods surrounding police shootings and then shame anyone who doesn't believe the false narrative that they are putting out. They've also taken recently to using megaphones to shout at white people eating at restaurants and other pretty unpopular actions.


Im not from the US but follow this BLM online...Surely "using megaphones to shout at white people eating at restaurants and other pretty unpopular actions is some form of assault or harassment?

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NYCVIE
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:44 am

c933103 wrote:
1.) How will such defunding of police force fix the problem of systemic violence against black community? Assuming the problem of systemic violence do persist in police force, defunding it would only make the police force less effective at doing their works and maybe making it harder for a black person and a police encounter, but it won't improve anything related to racism. What's the link I missed here?



Thanks for the topic c933103. I'm a young African American and here's my take at what "defunding" the police actually means and what it doesn't mean and then I'll get into who's supporting what re:N583JB. Obviously this is all from my perspective but I think it's shared by many. Sorry in advance that this might be long, I'm passionate about this issue.

First of all, I'm from a low-income community in New York City and I personally am in support of defunding the police - here's why. Defunding the police is about recognizing that the current system of policing in the United States isn't working for us. It's about realizing that predatory policing doesn't actually help build or sustain healthy and safe communities. Growing up in NYC while Stop and Frisk was an NYPD initiative was a nightmare because it genuinely instilled fear amongst the average person of color whenever they saw police officers because of the very real possibility of being targeted for no reason other than looking suspicious. I went to private school and I know many of my classmates who were stopped and frisked (in suit & tie uniform) on their way to/from school for no reason. That's not right and it's not sustainable, not to mention that Stop and Frisk was a failure in terms of yielding actual results.

Defunding the police is saying that perhaps we should redeploy finances to other community based methods of caring for and sustaining a community. Contrary to the rhetoric of the right, that doesn't mean calling a social worker to the scene of a murder instead of the police, but it just doesn't make sense that the police have the broad responsibilities they have without specialized training. I mean, the average person in a corporate job or in the medical profession goes through far more training/school than a police officer and even then is only qualified for a specific set of specialties. The same law enforcement officer shouldn't be tasked with responding to a mental health crisis, a drug episode, a break-in, a domestic abuse situation, a murder, a robbery, a rape, etc.

This is how you quickly get situations where police officers aren't adequately equipped to respond to particular episodes and out of fear invoke violence. If more money was allocated to professionals and local groups/departments who are specialized in these things you would have far less violence in de-escalating these situations and you would reduce tension between law enforcement and the average citizen. Law enforcement is not supposed to be something people fear and there honestly should be stress taken off police officers to respond to situations where they're in over their heads for lack of a better term. There have been numerous attempts to reform police departments from within with things such as body cameras, but as we've seen, in many cases they conveniently happen to not be on. Even look at that viral video from months ago in Buffalo where an elderly man was aggressively pushed by Buffalo police officer to the floor and started bleeding from his head as the other officers walked right past. The next day two officers were suspended followed by all the remaining officers on the team resigning from the unit out of either solidarity or fear of being held accountable. That's an ingrained mentality.

N583JB wrote:
"Defunding" the police is actually something that is opposed by most black people. In fact, a recent poll found that 80% of black people surveyed want more police in their neighborhoods, not less. "Defunding" the police is popular amongst white liberals who never have to go to the low-income, high-crime neighborhoods that they want to remove the police from.


As for the popularity of defunding the police I think it's important to understand that proponents of this aren't expecting this to happen tomorrow. As a mainstream idea, defunding the police is extremely new - I mean, we've been dealing with Coronavirus for longer. As such it's not surprising that the support isn't there...yet. When people first hear of defunding the police it sounds like a radical, extreme idea because we've all grown up and lived in the system we have. You could ask any toddler and they'd know what a police officer is. So to suggest such a shift in an established institution like the police is a big ask for many people and it's going to take time, conversation, and debate to build awareness and support. But people are currently laying the foundation to continue this conversation. There are a lot of major shifts that have happened in the US that if you would have asked people from the jump they wouldn't have supported. Civil rights is an example. I think government funded healthcare is another - as time has passed and more people are understanding what that might look like, support for it has significantly grown.

N583JB wrote:
I'm pretty cynical of BLM as an organization, because time and time again they have created false narratives surrounding police shootings and they have tried to portray some very bad people as "martyrs". So, part of their M.O. is to create falsehoods surrounding police shootings and then shame anyone who doesn't believe the false narrative that they are putting out. They've also taken recently to using megaphones to shout at white people eating at restaurants and other pretty unpopular actions.

Lastly, I think we need to keep in mind that this is a decentralized movement. You can't write the entire thing off because of the actions of a relative few - yes, relative because there have been MILLIONS that have peacefully protested but of course that's not interesting or shocking so it's not covered to the same extent. Using "they" as a pronoun to describe a movement of millions because of this video is completely off the mark. For example, look back at the Civil Rights movement, there were many violent sects of that and overwhelmingly peaceful ones as well. Do you look back and write off the Civil Rights movement because of those violent actors?
 
flyguy89
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:10 am

NYCVIE wrote:
Defunding the police is saying that perhaps we should redeploy finances to other community based methods of caring for and sustaining a community. Contrary to the rhetoric of the right, that doesn't mean calling a social worker to the scene of a murder instead of the police, but it just doesn't make sense that the police have the broad responsibilities they have without specialized training. I mean, the average person in a corporate job or in the medical profession goes through far more training/school than a police officer and even then is only qualified for a specific set of specialties. The same law enforcement officer shouldn't be tasked with responding to a mental health crisis, a drug episode, a break-in, a domestic abuse situation, a murder, a robbery, a rape, etc.

This is how you quickly get situations where police officers aren't adequately equipped to respond to particular episodes and out of fear invoke violence. If more money was allocated to professionals and local groups/departments who are specialized in these things you would have far less violence in de-escalating these situations and you would reduce tension between law enforcement and the average citizen. Law enforcement is not supposed to be something people fear and there honestly should be stress taken off police officers to respond to situations where they're in over their heads for lack of a better term. There have been numerous attempts to reform police departments from within with things such as body cameras, but as we've seen, in many cases they conveniently happen to not be on. Even look at that viral video from months ago in Buffalo where an elderly man was aggressively pushed by Buffalo police officer to the floor and started bleeding from his head as the other officers walked right past. The next day two officers were suspended followed by all the remaining officers on the team resigning from the unit out of either solidarity or fear of being held accountable. That's an ingrained mentality.

:checkmark: :checkmark:

One of the biggest issues by far is the police are tasked with FAR too much for the training they receive. Legislators and politicians are hugely to blame here because they often thoughtlessly pass laws with little regard to how they're going to be enforced or carried out...carelessly heaping more and more on to the police.

I do think in order for this movement to advance and actually accomplish some of its objectives, we need to move away from the term "defund." It's not illustrative of the ultimate goal and needlessly distracts from reforms most Americans would probably be onboard with.
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:01 am

Dieuwer wrote:
The police in the USA needs a mentality change the most. From being Rambos with Guns to serving the people in a respectful way.


A lot of that is down to training or the lack of training. It takes 3 years to become a police officer in Norway, it's doesn't even take 6 months to become a cop in most US cities.
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:08 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
The police in the USA needs a mentality change the most. From being Rambos with Guns to serving the people in a respectful way.


A lot of that is down to training or the lack of training. It takes 3 years to become a police officer in Norway


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
and, at least here in Germany, after being done with your training, you end up in the ready police forces and do a lot of riot control to proof yourself in high stress situations before you are let lose with a firearm.

And the recruitment test is tough enough to have 9 out of 10 applicants fail.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:11 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
The police in the USA needs a mentality change the most. From being Rambos with Guns to serving the people in a respectful way.


A lot of that is down to training or the lack of training. It takes 3 years to become a police officer in Norway


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
and, at least here in Germany, after being done with your training, you end up in the ready police forces and do a lot of riot control to proof yourself in high stress situations before you are let lose with a firearm.

And the recruitment test is tough enough to have 9 out of 10 applicants fail.

best regards
Thomas


It's also very hard getting into the training course and after 3 years there is no guarantee of a job. Same deal for the fire service, very hard to get into and no job guarantee at the end of training.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:53 am

Interesting take on BLM, from a black columnist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxLJCXKT8MQ
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:00 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Interesting take on BLM, from a black columnist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxLJCXKT8MQ


This ‘conversations’ series looked okay until I saw disgraced historian and polemicist Victor Davis Hanson in there. Total joke.
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Braybuddy
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:15 am

Aaron747 wrote:
This ‘conversations’ series looked okay until I saw disgraced historian and polemicist Victor Davis Hanson in there. Total joke.

It took you 7 minutes to dismiss an interview that lasts 48?
 
JJJ
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:18 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
The police in the USA needs a mentality change the most. From being Rambos with Guns to serving the people in a respectful way.


A lot of that is down to training or the lack of training. It takes 3 years to become a police officer in Norway


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
and, at least here in Germany, after being done with your training, you end up in the ready police forces and do a lot of riot control to proof yourself in high stress situations before you are let lose with a firearm.


Conversely, in the US a not insignificant number of law enforcement officers are former military, a lot of them just coming with combat experience, and a quite a bit of training and ethos seems military.derived.

If an institution hardly suspect of leftie-ism like the Koch institute tells you militarisation has gone too far maybe you should take a look at it.

https://www.charleskochinstitute.org/is ... 20of%20the
 
tommy1808
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:27 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This ‘conversations’ series looked okay until I saw disgraced historian and polemicist Victor Davis Hanson in there. Total joke.

It took you 7 minutes to dismiss an interview that lasts 48?


if it was an interview featuring Alex Jones, how many seconds would you need to dismiss the whole thing as nonsense?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:40 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This ‘conversations’ series looked okay until I saw disgraced historian and polemicist Victor Davis Hanson in there. Total joke.

It took you 7 minutes to dismiss an interview that lasts 48?


if it was an interview featuring Alex Jones, how many seconds would you need to dismiss the whole thing as nonsense?

best regards
Thomas

Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I'd have to listen to someone to find out where they're coming from, even if it was to dismiss them as a crackpot, which I would do with Alex Jones. What do you do? Coleman Hughes has written for newspapers such the New York Times and The Guardian, hardly sources of conspiracy theories, and the interviewer in my link puts BLM arguments to Coleman, and he gives very considered replies.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:50 am

Braybuddy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
It took you 7 minutes to dismiss an interview that lasts 48?


if it was an interview featuring Alex Jones, how many seconds would you need to dismiss the whole thing as nonsense?

best regards
Thomas

Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I'd have to listen to someone to find out where they're coming from, even if it was to dismiss them as a crackpot, which I would do with Alex Jones. What do you do? Coleman Hughes has written for newspapers such the New York Times and The Guardian, hardly sources of conspiracy theories, and the interviewer in my link puts BLM arguments to Coleman, and he gives very considered replies.


Sorry but people wanting to be taken seriously don’t spend time warming up to VDH. He appears most frequently on Tucker Carlson’s polemics-fest.

https://thebulwark.com/the-generals-and ... orian/?amp

As for Hughes, he is obviously trying to build a career as a niche insider critic of the left. He would be easier to take seriously if he didn’t pull career-builder stunts like debating Ta-Nehisi Coates. Neither are healthy for the issues they prefer talking about.
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bennett123
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:03 am

So is the best route to shift funding to some other agency, (if so which) or more funding for police selection and training?.

I know it is not going to be popular but gun control is also a factor. Cops in the US are far more likely to encounter someone who is armed than in countries where gun ownership is not the norm.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:22 am

Braybuddy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
It took you 7 minutes to dismiss an interview that lasts 48?


if it was an interview featuring Alex Jones, how many seconds would you need to dismiss the whole thing as nonsense?

best regards
Thomas

Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I'd have to listen to someone to find out where they're coming from, even if it was to dismiss them as a crackpot, which I would do with Alex Jones. What do you do? .


yes, put at some point a crackpot can be dismissed for being a crack pot. At some point it becomes painfully obvious that someone isn´t just a person you disagree with, but someone not having any interest in anything unbiased.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:38 am

bennett123 wrote:
I know it is not going to be popular but gun control is also a factor. Cops in the US are far more likely to encounter someone who is armed than in countries where gun ownership is not the norm.


Plenty of countries have high gun ownership of legal or illegal weapons, and i am pretty sure the chance of a cop having a run in with someone armed with AK47/74/AKM or RPG is quite a bit higher here than in the US, since they are fairly easy to get on the black market. Somehow US cops manage to not shoot armed citizens in a stand of in a nature preserve, protests or occupying a capital building. So it quite obviously guns don´t have much bearing on their incompetence.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
N583JB
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:59 am

NYCVIE wrote:
Lastly, I think we need to keep in mind that this is a decentralized movement. You can't write the entire thing off because of the actions of a relative few - yes, relative because there have been MILLIONS that have peacefully protested but of course that's not interesting or shocking so it's not covered to the same extent. Using "they" as a pronoun to describe a movement of millions because of this video is completely off the mark. For example, look back at the Civil Rights movement, there were many violent sects of that and overwhelmingly peaceful ones as well. Do you look back and write off the Civil Rights movement because of those violent actors?


Yet BLM has no problem writing off a million police officers because of the actions of a few.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:01 am

N583JB wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
Lastly, I think we need to keep in mind that this is a decentralized movement. You can't write the entire thing off because of the actions of a relative few - yes, relative because there have been MILLIONS that have peacefully protested but of course that's not interesting or shocking so it's not covered to the same extent. Using "they" as a pronoun to describe a movement of millions because of this video is completely off the mark. For example, look back at the Civil Rights movement, there were many violent sects of that and overwhelmingly peaceful ones as well. Do you look back and write off the Civil Rights movement because of those violent actors?


Yet BLM has no problem writing off a million police officers because of the actions of a few.


So, which police union or benefits administration are you employed by? It’s only fair if going forward in these discussions we are made aware of why you are so involved with this particular issue.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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N583JB
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:01 am

tommy1808 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
I know it is not going to be popular but gun control is also a factor. Cops in the US are far more likely to encounter someone who is armed than in countries where gun ownership is not the norm.


Plenty of countries have high gun ownership of legal or illegal weapons, and i am pretty sure the chance of a cop having a run in with someone armed with AK47/74/AKM or RPG is quite a bit higher here than in the US, since they are fairly easy to get on the black market. Somehow US cops manage to not shoot armed citizens in a stand of in a nature preserve, protests or occupying a capital building. So it quite obviously guns don´t have much bearing on their incompetence.

best regards
Thomas


Yet no western country has cops that are shot and killed in the line of duty as frequently as they are in the United States. There are more guns than people in the United States, and cops are routinely shot here.
 
N583JB
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:02 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
Lastly, I think we need to keep in mind that this is a decentralized movement. You can't write the entire thing off because of the actions of a relative few - yes, relative because there have been MILLIONS that have peacefully protested but of course that's not interesting or shocking so it's not covered to the same extent. Using "they" as a pronoun to describe a movement of millions because of this video is completely off the mark. For example, look back at the Civil Rights movement, there were many violent sects of that and overwhelmingly peaceful ones as well. Do you look back and write off the Civil Rights movement because of those violent actors?


Yet BLM has no problem writing off a million police officers because of the actions of a few.


So, which police union or benefits administration are you employed by? About time we hear about it.


None. I respect the police, but would never want to be a police officer.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:27 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Sorry but people wanting to be taken seriously don’t spend time warming up to VDH. He appears most frequently on Tucker Carlson’s polemics-fest.

https://thebulwark.com/the-generals-and ... orian/?amp

As for Hughes, he is obviously trying to build a career as a niche insider critic of the left. He would be easier to take seriously if he didn’t pull career-builder stunts like debating Ta-Nehisi Coates. Neither are healthy for the issues they prefer talking about.

I don't follow American politics closely, but I've read through that article and I can't see the relevance to BLM. Please enlighten me.

Hughes is entitled to his opinion, and it's refreshing to find some critical thinking from a black perspective. He gives a lot of thought to the issue, which unfortunately seems to be missing in most of the current debate. He lives in the real world: “Just like we’ll never get to a society where there is zero murder, we’ll never get to a society with zero racial bias, because we are built flawed."

tommy1808 wrote:
yes, put at some point a crackpot can be dismissed for being a crack pot. At some point it becomes painfully obvious that someone isn´t just a person you disagree with, but someone not having any interest in anything unbiased.

best regards
Thomas

Which is why you need to listen to everybody, if only to dismiss them -- and have a good laugh in the process.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:37 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Sorry but people wanting to be taken seriously don’t spend time warming up to VDH. He appears most frequently on Tucker Carlson’s polemics-fest.

https://thebulwark.com/the-generals-and ... orian/?amp

As for Hughes, he is obviously trying to build a career as a niche insider critic of the left. He would be easier to take seriously if he didn’t pull career-builder stunts like debating Ta-Nehisi Coates. Neither are healthy for the issues they prefer talking about.

I don't follow American politics closely, but I've read through that article and I can't see the relevance to BLM. Please enlighten me.

Hughes is entitled to his opinion, and it's refreshing to find some critical thinking from a black perspective. He gives a lot of thought to the issue, which unfortunately seems to be missing in most of the current debate. He lives in the real world: “Just like we’ll never get to a society where there is zero murder, we’ll never get to a society with zero racial bias, because we are built flawed."

tommy1808 wrote:
yes, put at some point a crackpot can be dismissed for being a crack pot. At some point it becomes painfully obvious that someone isn´t just a person you disagree with, but someone not having any interest in anything unbiased.

best regards
Thomas

Which is why you need to listen to everybody, if only to dismiss them -- and have a good laugh in the process.


The relevance is he is a disgraced historian who comments on everything through the sycophantic lens of Trumpism. Not the best voice to be quizzing about US politics for a host abroad.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:27 am

Aaron747 wrote:
The relevance is he is a disgraced historian who comments on everything through the sycophantic lens of Trumpism. Not the best voice to be quizzing about US politics for a host abroad.

Sorry but I seem to be missing the point. You seem to be talking about someone called Victor Davis Hanson, which has nothing to do with my post, or the interview with Coleman Hughes. :scratchchin:
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:16 pm

NYCVIE wrote:
Thanks for the topic c933103. I'm a young African American and here's my take at what "defunding" the police actually means and what it doesn't mean and then I'll get into who's supporting what re:N583JB. Obviously this is all from my perspective but I think it's shared by many. Sorry in advance that this might be long, I'm passionate about this issue.

First of all, I'm from a low-income community in New York City and I personally am in support of defunding the police - here's why. Defunding the police is about recognizing that the current system of policing in the United States isn't working for us. It's about realizing that predatory policing doesn't actually help build or sustain healthy and safe communities. Growing up in NYC while Stop and Frisk was an NYPD initiative was a nightmare because it genuinely instilled fear amongst the average person of color whenever they saw police officers because of the very real possibility of being targeted for no reason other than looking suspicious. I went to private school and I know many of my classmates who were stopped and frisked (in suit & tie uniform) on their way to/from school for no reason. That's not right and it's not sustainable, not to mention that Stop and Frisk was a failure in terms of yielding actual results.

However, according to my understanding, stop and frinsk is costless to the police. How would defunding the police help achieve this? Why not just ban stop and frinsk like some 9ther states?
Defunding the police is saying that perhaps we should redeploy finances to other community based methods of caring for and sustaining a community. Contrary to the rhetoric of the right, that doesn't mean calling a social worker to the scene of a murder instead of the police, but it just doesn't make sense that the police have the broad responsibilities they have without specialized training. I mean, the average person in a corporate job or in the medical profession goes through far more training/school than a police officer and even then is only qualified for a specific set of specialties. The same law enforcement officer shouldn't be tasked with responding to a mental health crisis, a drug episode, a break-in, a domestic abuse situation, a murder, a robbery, a rape, etc.

Wait, are you saying there should be community method to "care and sustain a community", or to have different people handling different specialized situations? That seems very different.
This is how you quickly get situations where police officers aren't adequately equipped to respond to particular episodes and out of fear invoke violence. If more money was allocated to professionals and local groups/departments who are specialized in these things you would have far less violence in de-escalating these situations and you would reduce tension between law enforcement and the average citizen. Law enforcement is not supposed to be something people fear and there honestly should be stress taken off police officers to respond to situations where they're in over their heads for lack of a better term. There have been numerous attempts to reform police departments from within with things such as body cameras, but as we've seen, in many cases they conveniently happen to not be on. Even look at that viral video from months ago in Buffalo where an elderly man was aggressively pushed by Buffalo police officer to the floor and started bleeding from his head as the other officers walked right past. The next day two officers were suspended followed by all the remaining officers on the team resigning from the unit out of either solidarity or fear of being held accountable. That's an ingrained mentality.

No matter which groups will become responsible, they will all become part of the "law enforcement" which is being campaigned for defunding. Unless if they have no legal power, but organizations without legal power would not be able to replace police's role in those specialized crimes.
And in any case, if you want such law enforcement to get proper training which is deemed not sufficient currently, it would have needed more instead of less resources?

As for the popularity of defunding the police I think it's important to understand that proponents of this aren't expecting this to happen tomorrow. As a mainstream idea, defunding the police is extremely new - I mean, we've been dealing with Coronavirus for longer. As such it's not surprising that the support isn't there...yet. When people first hear of defunding the police it sounds like a radical, extreme idea because we've all grown up and lived in the system we have. You could ask any toddler and they'd know what a police officer is. So to suggest such a shift in an established institution like the police is a big ask for many people and it's going to take time, conversation, and debate to build awareness and support. But people are currently laying the foundation to continue this conversation. There are a lot of major shifts that have happened in the US that if you would have asked people from the jump they wouldn't have supported. Civil rights is an example. I think government funded healthcare is another - as time has passed and more people are understanding what that might look like, support for it has significantly grown.

If it is expected to take time and have conversation to build support, then it doesn't seems like many actions being dome on the street now calling for immediate action or continuous disruption is helping?

Lastly, I think we need to keep in mind that this is a decentralized movement. You can't write the entire thing off because of the actions of a relative few - yes, relative because there have been MILLIONS that have peacefully protested but of course that's not interesting or shocking so it's not covered to the same extent. Using "they" as a pronoun to describe a movement of millions because of this video is completely off the mark. For example, look back at the Civil Rights movement, there were many violent sects of that and overwhelmingly peaceful ones as well. Do you look back and write off the Civil Rights movement because of those violent actors?

Even in term of decentralized movement, when comparing with similar movement around the world, it should have been possoble for participants to remind themselves and each other that they aresupposedly acting for the movement, and use this to both discipline themselves and discipline others. When such check and control is lacked, this image is the result it present.
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:20 pm

Thomas

My point is that police in the US are more likely to face people who have guns.

They therefore approach any encounter with that mindset.
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:16 pm

N583JB wrote:
"Defunding" the police is actually something that is opposed by most black people. In fact, a recent poll found that 80% of black people surveyed want more police in their neighborhoods, not less. "

Which is weird...everyone states that the high crime areas in the inner cities of major US cities where the residents are predominately black is a result of black on black violence....so since this has been ongoing for years, how exactly has the police been helping this situation that black folk want more police?
If police presence was helping crime would be going down, not increasing or remaining at the same level, so what are these residents thinking when they provide such answers, what exactly is the police doing, is the answer just something built into the mindset from years ago when people viewed the police as a friend and a part of the neighbourhood?
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:39 pm

JJJ wrote:
Conversely, in the US a not insignificant number of law enforcement officers are former military, a lot of them just coming with combat experience, and a quite a bit of training and ethos seems military.derived.

If an institution hardly suspect of leftie-ism like the Koch institute tells you militarisation has gone too far maybe you should take a look at it.

https://www.charleskochinstitute.org/is ... 20of%20the

Machine guns and grenade launcher sound useful. So if they have to return the equipment if not used for a year, where to use the grenade launcher?
The couple listening to music in a hotel room comes to mind.

On a more serious note:
Thanks for this link. Helps an European to understand what is going on.

What is never discussed:
0,5 to 2,5% of population has paranoid personality disorder. I assume affected blacks may be the most radical supporters of BLM. Add people looking for action.
So something like a central leadership is required, otherwise there may be a backlash for what are reasonable demands.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:56 pm

Sokes wrote:
So something like a central leadership is required, otherwise there may be a backlash for what are reasonable demands.

...flip side is if there is a central leadership for what they are up against, so far we know that there is no one central Fraternal Order of Police covering entire states much less the entire country for training / assisting officers. SWAT on the other hand does have more reach as most forces who do have dedicated SWAT do send members to other departments in major cities for training.
On the military side, soldiers know that when in battle the only ones they have to relay on are their fellow soldiers, consider how this mindset translates to policing and the blue wall which already exist.
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:22 pm

Speaking of central leadership. In Germany police is task of the states. In the US according to JJJ's link there are police authorities like sand on the sea. Is there at least a uniform training, let's say on state level?

So BLM and the police may share the same problem. Too federal.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:30 pm

Sokes wrote:
Speaking of central leadership. In Germany police is task of the states. In the US according to JJJ's link there are police authorities like sand on the sea. Is there at least a uniform training, let's say on state level?

So BLM and the police may share the same problem. Too federal.


States usually have minimum standards in state law for training - that doesn't mean all municipalities and county sheriffs are running the same type of training.
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:05 pm

c933103 wrote:
According to my understanding, the BLM movement seek to bring justice, equality and reform to the black community living in western countries, especially in the United States.

According to my understanding, one of the key proposed aspect is to end systematic racism by the police force against black commubity by defunding the police institution.

However, what I don't understand is,
1.) How will such defunding of police force fix the problem of systemic violence against black community? Assuming the problem of systemic violence do persist in police force, defunding it would only make the police force less effective at doing their works and maybe making it harder for a black person and a police encounter, but it won't improve anything related to racism. What's the link I missed here?
2.) Other than police, what other form of actions do participants of the movement want to receive so that they can get the desired "justice, equality, reform"? What are the types of reform being anticipated?


Part of the problem is the definition and goals. One side has decided what BLM is and that is pure evil. Take that out of the equation and let's start there.

The point of Black Lives Matter (this is what I as a middle aged white guy see) is to get everyone to treat minorities the same as Whites. Look back at the people outraged over Kaepernick kneeling during the National Anthem and how White people complained that he was disrespecting the flag. Meanwhile, the same White people are flying flags with half Republic, half Confederate flags or going to get a beer during the National Anthem.

Treat all Americans equally, regardless of skin color.

As far as "defund" that was changed. People actually talked about "defund" and realized that simply taking money away from police would solve nothing. So, they decided that money should go to things like community health care centers, drug addiction counseling, mental health counseling, and education instead of simply throwing money at the police and expecting them to be a "one-size-fits-all" approach to community issues.

IMO, we still need to get rid of the racist cops. Their top priority is not to help minorities, especially when they see minorities as less than American.
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:06 pm

it is true that black lives matter, and I support the legitimate efforts to make social change in that regard.

But BLM--capital B, capital L, capital M, Black Lives Matter, is a radical organization based on their own words and dogma. BLM leaders Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors and Opal TometiIn adore Maduro and hung out together, openly claiming they are trained Marxists. Their list of demands is nothing but an extreme radical manifesto that is wholly incompatible with not only American ideals but also Western Civilization:

“We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear-family-structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and ‘villages’ that collectively care for one another.” Calls for abolishing all police and all prisons. It also calls for a “progressive restructuring of tax codes at the local, state and federal levels to ensure a radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth.” "the retroactive decriminalization, immediate release and record ­expungement of all drug-related offenses and prostitution and reparations for the devastating impact of the ‘war on drugs’ and criminalization of prostitution.”


Hawk Newsome, the president of NY BLM said, "I just want black liberation, and black sovereignty. By any means necessary.” They openly advocate for violent means. Forget about the troubling history of violent black liberation ideology, the fact they reject non-violence inherently should be concerning.

https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/06/ ... eslie-taha

Finally, and I say this sincerely because I don't think a lot of black people understand what they're supporting here--is that BLM supports "reproductive freedom" and are vehemently pro-choice. On the surface, a lot of Americans wouldn't disagree. But Planned Parenthood's own virulently racist founder Margaret Sanger led the charge for what (by her own words indicate) black genocide. She created it to exterminate black babies. That's fact, it's historical record and it's wholly ignored.

It's also the REAL tragedy in a fundamental plank of what BLM is all about. You can't have "liberation" if you murder your own before they even have a life to live.

Want real change? Start with black fatherhood, start by rebuilding the nuclear family, start by graduating HS, start by reforming police unions and ensuring accountability that way. You don't start by burning down neighborhoods (including black owned businesses), rioting, and turning people off to what *could* be a legitimate message of social reform.
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:45 pm

seb146 wrote:
Treat all Americans equally, regardless of skin color.

However, some in the movement seems to want more affirmative actions which is against this?
As far as "defund" that was changed. People actually talked about "defund" and realized that simply taking money away from police would solve nothing. So, they decided that money should go to things like community health care centers, drug addiction counseling, mental health counseling, and education instead of simply throwing money at the police and expecting them to be a "one-size-fits-all" approach to community issues.

IMO, we still need to get rid of the racist cops. Their top priority is not to help minorities, especially when they see minorities as less than American.

So community service need more funding and racist cops should be removed. But why thay funding should be from police instead of trying to also put more funding into police as a form of service to community which as have been said need desperately more training?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:25 pm

c933103 wrote:
IMO, we still need to get rid of the racist cops. Their top priority is not to help minorities, especially when they see minorities as less than American.

So community service need more funding and racist cops should be removed. But why thay funding should be from police instead of trying to also put more funding into police as a form of service to community which as have been said need desperately more training?[/quote]
Because just like your own home economy, you can't just make more money, you have to budget and reduce somewhat in one area to spend more in another?

There was a time when Republican's actually valued that. Not anymore apparently based on the last few years (before the COVID crap).

Tugg
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:50 pm

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
According to my understanding, the BLM movement seek to bring justice, equality and reform to the black community living in western countries, especially in the United States.

According to my understanding, one of the key proposed aspect is to end systematic racism by the police force against black commubity by defunding the police institution.

However, what I don't understand is,
1.) How will such defunding of police force fix the problem of systemic violence against black community? Assuming the problem of systemic violence do persist in police force, defunding it would only make the police force less effective at doing their works and maybe making it harder for a black person and a police encounter, but it won't improve anything related to racism. What's the link I missed here?
2.) Other than police, what other form of actions do participants of the movement want to receive so that they can get the desired "justice, equality, reform"? What are the types of reform being anticipated?


Part of the problem is the definition and goals. One side has decided what BLM is and that is pure evil. Take that out of the equation and let's start there.

The point of Black Lives Matter (this is what I as a middle aged white guy see) is to get everyone to treat minorities the same as Whites. Look back at the people outraged over Kaepernick kneeling during the National Anthem and how White people complained that he was disrespecting the flag. Meanwhile, the same White people are flying flags with half Republic, half Confederate flags or going to get a beer during the National Anthem.

Treat all Americans equally, regardless of skin color.

As far as "defund" that was changed. People actually talked about "defund" and realized that simply taking money away from police would solve nothing. So, they decided that money should go to things like community health care centers, drug addiction counseling, mental health counseling, and education instead of simply throwing money at the police and expecting them to be a "one-size-fits-all" approach to community issues.

IMO, we still need to get rid of the racist cops. Their top priority is not to help minorities, especially when they see minorities as less than American.


That's the issue I think most people actually supported BLM initially. But as an organization is has manifested into something which is anything but black lives matter. They have taken in millions of dollars what have they done? Have they helped any low income black families? Have they stopped any of the black on black crime? Do only black lives matter if only killed by a white cop? If so then that number is small in comparison to how most black people meet their fate. They would do better to support the things that REALLY hurt the black community and I have a news flash for you it ain't white cops. Now I am not saying there is not police abuse there is and if anything good came out of the spotlight it is the need for police reforms which I am all for and blacks have a reason to distrust police. But the general public is getting very tired of the burning cities to the ground and I realize that white supremacists are mixing in it as well and trying to stoke a race war. I am not voting this go around but don't be surprised if this doesn't backfire on Biden. There is a silent majority that are not telling anyone who they are voting for and will likely vote for Trump even if they hate him just because they are sick of the BLM tactics.
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:32 pm

N583JB wrote:
c933103 wrote:
According to my understanding, the BLM movement seek to bring justice, equality and reform to the black community living in western countries, especially in the United States.

According to my understanding, one of the key proposed aspect is to end systematic racism by the police force against black commubity by defunding the police institution.

However, what I don't understand is,
1.) How will such defunding of police force fix the problem of systemic violence against black community? Assuming the problem of systemic violence do persist in police force, defunding it would only make the police force less effective at doing their works and maybe making it harder for a black person and a police encounter, but it won't improve anything related to racism. What's the link I missed here?


"Defunding" the police is actually something that is opposed by most black people. In fact, a recent poll found that 80% of black people surveyed want more police in their neighborhoods, not less. "Defunding" the police is popular amongst white liberals who never have to go to the low-income, high-crime neighborhoods that they want to remove the police from.

2.) Other than police, what other form of actions do participants of the movement want to receive so that they can get the desired "justice, equality, reform"? What are the types of reform being anticipated?


I'm pretty cynical of BLM as an organization, because time and time again they have created false narratives surrounding police shootings and they have tried to portray some very bad people as "martyrs". So, part of their M.O. is to create falsehoods surrounding police shootings and then shame anyone who doesn't believe the false narrative that they are putting out. They've also taken recently to using megaphones to shout at white people eating at restaurants and other pretty unpopular actions.


Are you black? If not, please refrain from speaking for the group. A recent study my ass, why dont you post the source of that study?
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:39 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
c933103 wrote:
According to my understanding, the BLM movement seek to bring justice, equality and reform to the black community living in western countries, especially in the United States.

According to my understanding, one of the key proposed aspect is to end systematic racism by the police force against black commubity by defunding the police institution.

However, what I don't understand is,
1.) How will such defunding of police force fix the problem of systemic violence against black community? Assuming the problem of systemic violence do persist in police force, defunding it would only make the police force less effective at doing their works and maybe making it harder for a black person and a police encounter, but it won't improve anything related to racism. What's the link I missed here?


"Defunding" the police is actually something that is opposed by most black people. In fact, a recent poll found that 80% of black people surveyed want more police in their neighborhoods, not less. "Defunding" the police is popular amongst white liberals who never have to go to the low-income, high-crime neighborhoods that they want to remove the police from.

2.) Other than police, what other form of actions do participants of the movement want to receive so that they can get the desired "justice, equality, reform"? What are the types of reform being anticipated?


I'm pretty cynical of BLM as an organization, because time and time again they have created false narratives surrounding police shootings and they have tried to portray some very bad people as "martyrs". So, part of their M.O. is to create falsehoods surrounding police shootings and then shame anyone who doesn't believe the false narrative that they are putting out. They've also taken recently to using megaphones to shout at white people eating at restaurants and other pretty unpopular actions.


Are you black? If not, please refrain from speaking for the group. A recent study my ass, why dont you post the source of that study?


My skin tone is not any of your business. Anyways, here's the link you asked for-

https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/bla ... sence.aspx

I was slightly mistaken....80% surveyed want police presence to remain the same or be increased, compared to just 19% who want a reduced police presence in their area.
 
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:43 pm

maverick4002 wrote:

Are you black? If not, please refrain from speaking for the group. A recent study my ass, why dont you post the source of that study?

Would you say the same to white people who support BLM without limitations?
Should white people who publicly declare solidarity mind their own business?
Do you like Vietnam Johnson?
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:57 am

Sokes wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:

Are you black? If not, please refrain from speaking for the group. A recent study my ass, why dont you post the source of that study?

Would you say the same to white people who support BLM without limitations?
Should white people who publicly declare solidarity mind their own business?
Do you like Vietnam Johnson?


Effort is required to be fluent on any of those issues.

As far as BLM, people who've lived it, seen it...know it. Everyone is simply guessing and offering half-assed poorly-informed opinions.
Vietnam/Johnson - way more history to that than any bumper sticker label as this.

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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:17 am

slider wrote:
it is true that black lives matter, and I support the legitimate efforts to make social change in that regard.

But BLM--capital B, capital L, capital M, Black Lives Matter, is a radical organization based on their own words and dogma. BLM leaders Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors and Opal TometiIn adore Maduro and hung out together, openly claiming they are trained Marxists. Their list of demands is nothing but an extreme radical manifesto that is wholly incompatible with not only American ideals but also Western Civilization:

“We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear-family-structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and ‘villages’ that collectively care for one another.” Calls for abolishing all police and all prisons. It also calls for a “progressive restructuring of tax codes at the local, state and federal levels to ensure a radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth.” "the retroactive decriminalization, immediate release and record ­expungement of all drug-related offenses and prostitution and reparations for the devastating impact of the ‘war on drugs’ and criminalization of prostitution.”


Hawk Newsome, the president of NY BLM said, "I just want black liberation, and black sovereignty. By any means necessary.” They openly advocate for violent means. Forget about the troubling history of violent black liberation ideology, the fact they reject non-violence inherently should be concerning.

https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/06/ ... eslie-taha

Finally, and I say this sincerely because I don't think a lot of black people understand what they're supporting here--is that BLM supports "reproductive freedom" and are vehemently pro-choice. On the surface, a lot of Americans wouldn't disagree. But Planned Parenthood's own virulently racist founder Margaret Sanger led the charge for what (by her own words indicate) black genocide. She created it to exterminate black babies. That's fact, it's historical record and it's wholly ignored.

It's also the REAL tragedy in a fundamental plank of what BLM is all about. You can't have "liberation" if you murder your own before they even have a life to live.

Want real change? Start with black fatherhood, start by rebuilding the nuclear family, start by graduating HS, start by reforming police unions and ensuring accountability that way. You don't start by burning down neighborhoods (including black owned businesses), rioting, and turning people off to what *could* be a legitimate message of social reform.


Not quite to choice source on BLM, but I do commend your effort to take on the subject in this way, 10 years ago..there's no way you had come this far.

Perhaps the Blacks in need that you've spotlighted could follow the trump example...kids from 3 different mothers but never engaging with any of them.

The christian family values model approach looks nice from the outside, but upon closer inspection you discover the root cause of the twisted evangelical dysfunctionality currently consuming half the country.

BN747
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:35 am

BN747 wrote:
slider wrote:
it is true that black lives matter, and I support the legitimate efforts to make social change in that regard.

But BLM--capital B, capital L, capital M, Black Lives Matter, is a radical organization based on their own words and dogma. BLM leaders Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors and Opal TometiIn adore Maduro and hung out together, openly claiming they are trained Marxists. Their list of demands is nothing but an extreme radical manifesto that is wholly incompatible with not only American ideals but also Western Civilization:

“We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear-family-structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and ‘villages’ that collectively care for one another.” Calls for abolishing all police and all prisons. It also calls for a “progressive restructuring of tax codes at the local, state and federal levels to ensure a radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth.” "the retroactive decriminalization, immediate release and record ­expungement of all drug-related offenses and prostitution and reparations for the devastating impact of the ‘war on drugs’ and criminalization of prostitution.”


Hawk Newsome, the president of NY BLM said, "I just want black liberation, and black sovereignty. By any means necessary.” They openly advocate for violent means. Forget about the troubling history of violent black liberation ideology, the fact they reject non-violence inherently should be concerning.

https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/06/ ... eslie-taha

Finally, and I say this sincerely because I don't think a lot of black people understand what they're supporting here--is that BLM supports "reproductive freedom" and are vehemently pro-choice. On the surface, a lot of Americans wouldn't disagree. But Planned Parenthood's own virulently racist founder Margaret Sanger led the charge for what (by her own words indicate) black genocide. She created it to exterminate black babies. That's fact, it's historical record and it's wholly ignored.

It's also the REAL tragedy in a fundamental plank of what BLM is all about. You can't have "liberation" if you murder your own before they even have a life to live.

Want real change? Start with black fatherhood, start by rebuilding the nuclear family, start by graduating HS, start by reforming police unions and ensuring accountability that way. You don't start by burning down neighborhoods (including black owned businesses), rioting, and turning people off to what *could* be a legitimate message of social reform.


Not quite to choice source on BLM, but I do commend your effort to take on the subject in this way, 10 years ago..there's no way you had come this far.

Perhaps the Blacks in need that you've spotlighted could follow the trump example...kids from 3 different mothers but never engaging with any of them.

The christian family values model approach looks nice from the outside, but upon closer inspection you discover the root cause of the twisted evangelical dysfunctionality currently consuming half the country.

BN747


So you don't think having multiple children from multiple fathers is a problem? If you don't than you are the problem. I don't care what color you are if you have more kids than you can afford to support especially outside of a two parent household oh and I don't care it they are two gays either. Kids need stability and the liberals don't want to admit it but rewarding women financially for having more kids when she can't even support herself is asking for trouble. These kids wind up being raised on the street often falling into gangs so you keep going on saying whitey is the problem. The Democrats run their whole platform on keeping blacks thinking the white man is their problem so they can stay in power. What did Obama do for the blacks in his 8 years ? Not an Fng thing he started the race division and Trump made it worse.
 
BN747
Posts: 7934
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:48 am

stratosphere wrote:
BN747 wrote:
slider wrote:
it is true that black lives matter, and I support the legitimate efforts to make social change in that regard.

But BLM--capital B, capital L, capital M, Black Lives Matter, is a radical organization based on their own words and dogma. BLM leaders Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors and Opal TometiIn adore Maduro and hung out together, openly claiming they are trained Marxists. Their list of demands is nothing but an extreme radical manifesto that is wholly incompatible with not only American ideals but also Western Civilization:



Hawk Newsome, the president of NY BLM said, "I just want black liberation, and black sovereignty. By any means necessary.” They openly advocate for violent means. Forget about the troubling history of violent black liberation ideology, the fact they reject non-violence inherently should be concerning.

https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/06/ ... eslie-taha

Finally, and I say this sincerely because I don't think a lot of black people understand what they're supporting here--is that BLM supports "reproductive freedom" and are vehemently pro-choice. On the surface, a lot of Americans wouldn't disagree. But Planned Parenthood's own virulently racist founder Margaret Sanger led the charge for what (by her own words indicate) black genocide. She created it to exterminate black babies. That's fact, it's historical record and it's wholly ignored.

It's also the REAL tragedy in a fundamental plank of what BLM is all about. You can't have "liberation" if you murder your own before they even have a life to live.

Want real change? Start with black fatherhood, start by rebuilding the nuclear family, start by graduating HS, start by reforming police unions and ensuring accountability that way. You don't start by burning down neighborhoods (including black owned businesses), rioting, and turning people off to what *could* be a legitimate message of social reform.


Not quite to choice source on BLM, but I do commend your effort to take on the subject in this way, 10 years ago..there's no way you had come this far.

Perhaps the Blacks in need that you've spotlighted could follow the trump example...kids from 3 different mothers but never engaging with any of them.

The christian family values model approach looks nice from the outside, but upon closer inspection you discover the root cause of the twisted evangelical dysfunctionality currently consuming half the country.

BN747


.....These kids wind up being raised on the street often falling into gangs so you keep going on saying whitey is the problem. The Democrats run their whole platform on keeping blacks thinking the white man is their problem so they can stay in power. What did Obama do for the blacks in his 8 years ? Not a Fng thing he started the race division and Trump made it worse.


"whitey is the problem" is factual.

Who caused all the root troubles in America?
White women?
Native Americans?
Mexican Americans?

...whites and whites only crafted the power structure since day one and all problems associated.

The old Republican 'Plantation and Victim' ploy at work I see.

The problem with your victim argument are the facts casting a long shadow over those very words.

Ever known a woman who was raped?
A person beaten and mugged?
Stabbed?
Brutally beaten?
Child Abuse?

...all of those and many more fall in the category of 'Victims'

YOU can't possibly believe any of those people are NOT victims. No way.

Now given all of the above and worse (lynching, murders) was done to generations after generations of blacks by whites..for centuries.
And the negative stigmatizing still lingering in minds everywhere.

If those people aren't victims...no one is.

Don't preach what you think others should hear ...unless you know what they've endured. Which you clearly do not.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Sokes
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 am

BN747 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:

Are you black? If not, please refrain from speaking for the group. A recent study my ass, why dont you post the source of that study?

Would you say the same to white people who support BLM without limitations?
Should white people who publicly declare solidarity mind their own business?
Do you like Vietnam Johnson?


Everyone is simply guessing and offering half-assed poorly-informed opinions.
Vietnam/Johnson - way more history to that than any bumper sticker label as this.

BN747

That's why I'm asking questions.
Which you didn't answer, by the way.

I call him Vietnam Johnson as there was lots of light as well as shade. No black and white judgements possible. Nearly as interesting as Khrushchev.

You have the last word.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5553
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:32 am

stratosphere wrote:
The Democrats run their whole platform on keeping blacks thinking the white man is their problem so they can stay in power.


BN747 wrote:
If those people aren't victims...no one is.

As an outsider, I would only say this is not possible for a society to function this way. A group of people think they're being treated underprivileged unfairly and then another group of people think they're being unfairly treated to compensate those who was underprivileged is exactly how you start Balkanization and the break up of Yugoslavia. And when all the people are living together instead of segregated territory the result would be Bosnia. Is it anyone's desired result of all these activities and would this be helpful to any group of people?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:36 am

I can't support a movement that has brought about so much violence in US cities. And many of the homes and businesses destroyed were owned by African Americans. How is that bringing justice or change? They're just hurting Black communities even more.

Having said that, I fully support changes in policing. The federal government should be the one investigating all instances of abuse or weapons discharge. Police departments cannot be trusted to investigate themselves. Any officer involved should be immediately suspended without pay. If any of us regular folks were to be arrested, we would almost assuredly lose our jobs. Body cameras should be mandatory. If cops have nothing to hide, why would they be opposed to them? And cops should have to purchase liability insurance. The taxpayers should foot the bill for their mistakes.

I also don't agree with having hate crimes. You aren't better than me or anyone else just because of your race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. And the same goes for cops. Injuring/killing a police officer should not bring increased charges. All crime should be treated equally. Isn't justice supposed to be blind? If someone murders me then I should receive the same justice as a cop that was murdered. No one person is better than the next and until we recognize that then we will never have equality. And no more fancy traffic-stopping funerals for cops paid for by the taxpayers. If their family wants that kind of lavish ceremony then they can pay for it.
 
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c933103
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Posts: 5553
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:42 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
No one person is better than the next and until we recognize that then we will never have equality.

I would repeat my previous question toward another user, do you think it is a good idea to compensate historically underprivileged individuals by making them easier than others to receive education at state college, be employed at certain role, or get government contracts?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life

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