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TTailedTiger
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:58 am

c933103 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
No one person is better than the next and until we recognize that then we will never have equality.

I would repeat my previous question toward another user, do you think it is a good idea to compensate historically underprivileged individuals by making them easier than others to receive education at state college, be employed at certain role, or get government contracts?


No. Everyone should have access to the same opportunities. I have seen no evidence of discrimination from universities. If you are a great student then you will have no trouble being admitted to a great university.

What I would recommend are more mentors in poorer communities. Those students face obstacles regardless of race. But that would actually require people to volunteer their time rather than throw money at something and claim you did your part.

I'll use myself as an example. I volunteer with prisonerss and help them put a plan together when they are released. A good job is the best way to keep someone from returning to prison. And they are all grateful for the people who have volunteered to help them. But I have a suspicion that most people would turn their noses up at volunteering with such people. Sure they may hold a fundraiser for some politician promising reform but that's where their interest stops.

If you want change in these communities then you'll have to be part of it.
 
BN747
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:06 am

c933103 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
The Democrats run their whole platform on keeping blacks thinking the white man is their problem so they can stay in power.


BN747 wrote:
If those people aren't victims...no one is.

As an outsider, I would only say this is not possible for a society to function this way. A group of people think they're being treated underprivileged unfairly and then another group of people think they're being unfairly treated to compensate those who was underprivileged is exactly how you start Balkanization and the break up of Yugoslavia. And when all the people are living together instead of segregated territory the result would be Bosnia. Is it anyone's desired result of all these activities and would this be helpful to any group of people?


That's because your perspective lacks all historical context that serves as the very factual basis of 'wrongful, unjust, discriminatory claims/feelings.

Your view is great for 'Once Upon Time Tales...', not real life application 'in real life'.


TTailedTiger wrote:
I can't support a movement that has brought about so much violence in US cities. And many of the homes and businesses destroyed were owned by African Americans. How is that bringing justice or change? They're just hurting Black communities even more.


You make that statement as if this is the first racial-initiating event and that like 100 years ago no one has said what you are saying now.

What you are stating is only confirming the fact that human history is repeating itself. And your unlearned attitude assures it will continue.

Human History always repeats itself when the ineducable fail to learn. Period.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Having said that, I fully support changes in policing. The federal government should be the one investigating all instances of abuse or weapons discharge. Police departments cannot be trusted to investigate themselves. Any officer involved should be immediately suspended without pay. If any of us regular folks were to be arrested, we would almost assuredly lose our jobs. Body cameras should be mandatory. If cops have nothing to hide, why would they be opposed to them? And cops should have to purchase liability insurance. The taxpayers should foot the bill for their mistakes. .


Agreed but I think you meant "The taxpayers should NOT foot the bill for their mistakes."

TTailedTiger wrote:
I also don't agree with having hate crimes. You aren't better than me or anyone else just because of your race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. And the same goes for cops. Injuring/killing a police officer should not bring increased charges. All crime should be treated equally.


Totally disagree because all crimes are not committed equally..from the 'pain inflected' perspective it may seem that way but certainly is not.

I can't help but think of the recent heinous crimes of killing trans people.

Why isn't that 'just another crime'?

It's not because in the skulls of male (and female) jurors, judges, prosecutors, et al...that victim is just not the same as the innocent blonde jogger attacked at the park.

ONLY when the minds of those who sit in judgement are balanced at a point that they cease to think in such limited and primitive circles and ascribe the same life-value to every victim, women, hookers, children, bad children, everyone except other killers...then every crime can truly be treated equally.

Until til the flood the courts with these silly ignorant crimes of hate - they too have a long and storied history.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Isn't justice supposed to be blind? If someone murders me then I should receive the same justice as a cop that was murdered. No one person is better than the next and until we recognize that then we will never have equality. And no more fancy traffic-stopping funerals for cops paid for by the taxpayers. If their family wants that kind of lavish ceremony then they can pay for it.


Yes the concept 'justice is supposed to be blind' is just that...a concept.

Just like Democracy, a word meaning nothing in the galaxy or the universe..but on the human scale of relevance it's the difference between living in Pyongyang and Boston.

Night and day.

Like all human concepts, they are conceived and all operated - by humans. Good and Bad.

The air let out of the concept is always from the bad components or flawed/bad humans.

That is how you narrow down to the source of the problem.

You, me all on this board are witnessing in Live-Time, the numero uno American, the president...
pissing on his oath to the US Constitution.
flaunting laws of self-enrichment in office (Amoulments)
violating political laws meant to keep politicians honest - the Hatch Act
flipping off the Congress and their lawful subpoenas.
lying straight to our faces
disrespecting fallen veterans (you respect cops more than war veterans?

..he's the leader.

How many Americans do you know believe are taking cues from him, elevating this Ignorant Fool to god like status.

Education....it can only help you. It may hurt at first...but stick with it!

BN747
Last edited by BN747 on Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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stl07
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:23 am

Seems like nobody here has been to an actual BLM protest, I have. No, it was not radical, and YES, the organizers DID request POLICE PROTECTION of the protest. N583JB, you are right, this whole abolish the police nonsence is being pushed by suburban gen z girls. However, you are wrong about BLM being radical, it is a decentralized movement
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c933103
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:33 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
No. Everyone should have access to the same opportunities. I have seen no evidence of discrimination from universities. If you are a great student then you will have no trouble being admitted to a great university.

What I would recommend are more mentors in poorer communities. Those students face obstacles regardless of race. But that would actually require people to volunteer their time rather than throw money at something and claim you did your part.

I'll use myself as an example. I volunteer with prisonerss and help them put a plan together when they are released. A good job is the best way to keep someone from returning to prison. And they are all grateful for the people who have volunteered to help them. But I have a suspicion that most people would turn their noses up at volunteering with such people. Sure they may hold a fundraiser for some politician promising reform but that's where their interest stops.

If you want change in these communities then you'll have to be part of it.

I have two questions on it.
1. As you said you have seen no evidence of discrimination from universities, do you think the racial quota in its currently implemented form is an acceptable way to promote equality for historically disadvantaged groups?
2. For a policy of metoring to help those who're less successful, it is important to have participation of someone more successful to lead. And given the current situation, seems like there are more white people that are successful in the United States and such proposal would lead to white people help guiding people of other colors tochange their life. Would such action blurred the line between what's is good to do and what is just different cultural trait of different people and lead to cultural whitewashing?
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ltbewr
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:57 am

The BLM movement is to me going to be seen as a mixed bag of affects that will balance out in the long term as positive.

We have seen overwhelmingly non-violent protests, wearing of masks and attempts of social distancing to limit the spread of Covid-19.
The USA and even other countries have begun to look at their histories as to racism, colonialism and enslavement. There has been the removals by governments from public pressure and sometimes of vandalism and removal by mobs of symbols of those evils.
We are seeing changes in advertising, marketing, production of entertainment media to be more inclusive of Black and other persons.
We are going to hopefully see police reforms to reduce racial biases on the streets.
We are seeing the need for inclusion of Black and other than White European persons as sound business decisions.
More than Black descendants of slaves in the USA are benefiting from the BLM movement, including Women, Native Americans, Hispanics/Latinx, even GLTBQ+ persons.
Part of the BLM movement has also targeting President Donald Trump and Republicans for their open racist behaviors and policies, including from the Covid-19 pandemic that has more deeply affected poor and Non-White communities.
Hopefully unbiased and fair distribution of the Covid-19 vaccine.

Sadly, the BLM movement has been hurt by counterproductive behaviors and challenges from those who fear change. Mobs vandalizing and taking down controversial statues with charges of 'destroying history'. Destruction and looting of private and public property, including police stations.Physical violence and death in the streets of some cities. Portions of downtown Portland, OR and other cities in stalemates of violence and protest The inaccurate and sometimes biased media coverage. A President who is using the violence to support his re-election campaign rather than call for calm and dealing with the calls for change by Black persons.

There are many issues the BLM movement has brought out and as I said in the beginning, hopefully lead to real, net positive changes in our society.
 
maverick4002
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:57 pm

Sokes wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:

Are you black? If not, please refrain from speaking for the group. A recent study my ass, why dont you post the source of that study?

Would you say the same to white people who support BLM without limitations?
Should white people who publicly declare solidarity mind their own business?
Do you like Vietnam Johnson?


I wont say the same to any random white person but I will 100% say it to this particular white person. Their comments and opinions on racial inequality / police brutality is very well known on this forum and anything they say is meant to disparage the movement. So yes, I stand by my comment here. Do not speak for black people. I, a black, have been to BLM protests once a week for the past ten weeks straight (yes, the protests are still happening) and trust when I say, defunding the police was never taken off the table. And the protests I attend average 10,000 people a week. Not even exaggerating here.
 
maverick4002
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:03 pm

stratosphere wrote:
BN747 wrote:
slider wrote:
it is true that black lives matter, and I support the legitimate efforts to make social change in that regard.

But BLM--capital B, capital L, capital M, Black Lives Matter, is a radical organization based on their own words and dogma. BLM leaders Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors and Opal TometiIn adore Maduro and hung out together, openly claiming they are trained Marxists. Their list of demands is nothing but an extreme radical manifesto that is wholly incompatible with not only American ideals but also Western Civilization:



Hawk Newsome, the president of NY BLM said, "I just want black liberation, and black sovereignty. By any means necessary.” They openly advocate for violent means. Forget about the troubling history of violent black liberation ideology, the fact they reject non-violence inherently should be concerning.

https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/06/ ... eslie-taha

Finally, and I say this sincerely because I don't think a lot of black people understand what they're supporting here--is that BLM supports "reproductive freedom" and are vehemently pro-choice. On the surface, a lot of Americans wouldn't disagree. But Planned Parenthood's own virulently racist founder Margaret Sanger led the charge for what (by her own words indicate) black genocide. She created it to exterminate black babies. That's fact, it's historical record and it's wholly ignored.

It's also the REAL tragedy in a fundamental plank of what BLM is all about. You can't have "liberation" if you murder your own before they even have a life to live.

Want real change? Start with black fatherhood, start by rebuilding the nuclear family, start by graduating HS, start by reforming police unions and ensuring accountability that way. You don't start by burning down neighborhoods (including black owned businesses), rioting, and turning people off to what *could* be a legitimate message of social reform.


Not quite to choice source on BLM, but I do commend your effort to take on the subject in this way, 10 years ago..there's no way you had come this far.

Perhaps the Blacks in need that you've spotlighted could follow the trump example...kids from 3 different mothers but never engaging with any of them.

The christian family values model approach looks nice from the outside, but upon closer inspection you discover the root cause of the twisted evangelical dysfunctionality currently consuming half the country.

BN747


So you don't think having multiple children from multiple fathers is a problem? If you don't than you are the problem. I don't care what color you are if you have more kids than you can afford to support especially outside of a two parent household oh and I don't care it they are two gays either. Kids need stability and the liberals don't want to admit it but rewarding women financially for having more kids when she can't even support herself is asking for trouble. These kids wind up being raised on the street often falling into gangs so you keep going on saying whitey is the problem. The Democrats run their whole platform on keeping blacks thinking the white man is their problem so they can stay in power. What did Obama do for the blacks in his 8 years ? Not an Fng thing he started the race division and Trump made it worse.


"Rewarding women financially for having more kids?" - I like how you are placing all the blame on women here, as if they get pregnant all on their own. Instead f promoting sexist tropes, what we need is a level playing field. You want to policy women's bodies, lets police men's bodies as well. Women cant get abortions, fine, a woman is entitled to how much ever paternity tests she needs to find the father of her baby. Once that father is found, wage garnishment begins immediately. Men and women contribute equally to kids, make men have some skin in the game and I am sure you will see a change in patterns. But that will never happen because as always, men want to have their cake and eat it too.
 
maverick4002
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:07 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
c933103 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
No one person is better than the next and until we recognize that then we will never have equality.

I would repeat my previous question toward another user, do you think it is a good idea to compensate historically underprivileged individuals by making them easier than others to receive education at state college, be employed at certain role, or get government contracts?


No. Everyone should have access to the same opportunities. I have seen no evidence of discrimination from universities. If you are a great student then you will have no trouble being admitted to a great university.

So you dont think legacy admits in universities is discrimination? How many people (say Trump) got admitted to top universities when they didn't have the grades and took the spot of someone (not race based here, really just anyone) who was obviously more qualified but didnt have the connections?
 
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seb146
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:22 pm

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Treat all Americans equally, regardless of skin color.

However, some in the movement seems to want more affirmative actions which is against this?


When a group of people are told to pull themselves up when they have nothing to pull themselves up by, Affirmative Action is needed. Things like quotas so that people can get into good schools are needed. Otherwise, some of the smartest people end up in the cycle of poverty.

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
As far as "defund" that was changed. People actually talked about "defund" and realized that simply taking money away from police would solve nothing. So, they decided that money should go to things like community health care centers, drug addiction counseling, mental health counseling, and education instead of simply throwing money at the police and expecting them to be a "one-size-fits-all" approach to community issues.

IMO, we still need to get rid of the racist cops. Their top priority is not to help minorities, especially when they see minorities as less than American.

So community service need more funding and racist cops should be removed. But why thay funding should be from police instead of trying to also put more funding into police as a form of service to community which as have been said need desperately more training?


Funding for the police can be moved to other services. Police do not need all that armament. They do not need better vehicles than our fighting men and women overseas. Move that money to places like Head Start or mental health services. When someone is in need of those but police are sent in and they simply arrest people who need mental health counseling or drug addiction counseling or children need someplace safe, why should cops be all that? I am reminded of the waste of taxpayer dollars on cops setting up a drug bust but both sides were cops. That helps no one on many levels. Not just cops getting money for nothing but if someone really needs to get off drugs, throwing them in jail will just make sure that, when they get out, they can just do more drugs.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
Posts: 4076
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:29 pm

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Treat all Americans equally, regardless of skin color.

However, some in the movement seems to want more affirmative actions which is against this?


When a group of people are told to pull themselves up when they have nothing to pull themselves up by, Affirmative Action is needed. Things like quotas so that people can get into good schools are needed. Otherwise, some of the smartest people end up in the cycle of poverty.

This is the entire purpose of things like Vouchers, so that these people can attend these good schools you speak of. Vouchers actually help the minority community, but the democrats oppose them because of the Teachers Unions. The main problem with affirmative action is it discriminates against the other side. This is actually an area that Trump could really win over if he tried, since its obvious Biden cares more about Wealthy White suburban voters than the working class.

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
As far as "defund" that was changed. People actually talked about "defund" and realized that simply taking money away from police would solve nothing. So, they decided that money should go to things like community health care centers, drug addiction counseling, mental health counseling, and education instead of simply throwing money at the police and expecting them to be a "one-size-fits-all" approach to community issues.

IMO, we still need to get rid of the racist cops. Their top priority is not to help minorities, especially when they see minorities as less than American.

So community service need more funding and racist cops should be removed. But why thay funding should be from police instead of trying to also put more funding into police as a form of service to community which as have been said need desperately more training?


Funding for the police can be moved to other services. Police do not need all that armament. They do not need better vehicles than our fighting men and women overseas. Move that money to places like Head Start or mental health services. When someone is in need of those but police are sent in and they simply arrest people who need mental health counseling or drug addiction counseling or children need someplace safe, why should cops be all that? I am reminded of the waste of taxpayer dollars on cops setting up a drug bust but both sides were cops. That helps no one on many levels. Not just cops getting money for nothing but if someone really needs to get off drugs, throwing them in jail will just make sure that, when they get out, they can just do more drugs.


I totally agree here. It is obvious there needs to be a different approach to policing in this country. A lot of this is how cops are trained, and I think there is much room for improvement here. I dont know what the answer is, and given the strength of Police Unions in this country, this could be a difficult problem to solve. But rhetoric needs to watched too, because when people use the term Defund Police and then crime in that area goes up, it is not a good look at all for public officials.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:38 pm

apodino wrote:
This is the entire purpose of things like Vouchers, so that these people can attend these good schools you speak of. Vouchers actually help the minority community, but the democrats oppose them because of the Teachers Unions. The main problem with affirmative action is it discriminates against the other side. This is actually an area that Trump could really win over if he tried, since its obvious Biden cares more about Wealthy White suburban voters than the working class.

The main issue I have with vouchers is the selectivity that many "voucher schools" are granted.

I will support vouchers when two things are done:
1.) The voucher school cannot refuse a voucher student that applies (there will of course be student population limits however they need to be handled separate from the school to prevent gaming that). If the school accepts vouchers, it accepts the students that apply and cannot kick them out without following the same process as public schools.

2.) And automatic process needs to be instituted that places under-performing and struggling students into superior vouchered schools without requiring input from parents. The change can be refused however the offer needs to be automatic. This avoids the issue of those working parents that struggle to make the time needed for such things, thus reducing the "privileged parents/students" effect.

Another side issue that goes along with accepting public funds/funding (vouchers), is that the voucher schools then must follow the same educational criteria that the state and local entities impose on the public schools.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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seb146
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:41 pm

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
However, some in the movement seems to want more affirmative actions which is against this?


When a group of people are told to pull themselves up when they have nothing to pull themselves up by, Affirmative Action is needed. Things like quotas so that people can get into good schools are needed. Otherwise, some of the smartest people end up in the cycle of poverty.

This is the entire purpose of things like Vouchers, so that these people can attend these good schools you speak of. Vouchers actually help the minority community, but the democrats oppose them because of the Teachers Unions. The main problem with affirmative action is it discriminates against the other side. This is actually an area that Trump could really win over if he tried, since its obvious Biden cares more about Wealthy White suburban voters than the working class.


Vouchers help no one but the owners of the private schools. Sure, parents will get so much toward tuition but where does the rest of the money come from when a family has no money to begin with? Affirmative Action does not harm "the other side" at all. But, rather, gives "the other side" an opportunity to interact with minorities and those from other backgrounds. Not just ethnic but financial.

With Affirmative Action, White kids compete against White kids. If one White kid's grades are not as high and their extra curriculars are not what a college is looking for, they are losing out to other White kids.

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
So community service need more funding and racist cops should be removed. But why thay funding should be from police instead of trying to also put more funding into police as a form of service to community which as have been said need desperately more training?


Funding for the police can be moved to other services. Police do not need all that armament. They do not need better vehicles than our fighting men and women overseas. Move that money to places like Head Start or mental health services. When someone is in need of those but police are sent in and they simply arrest people who need mental health counseling or drug addiction counseling or children need someplace safe, why should cops be all that? I am reminded of the waste of taxpayer dollars on cops setting up a drug bust but both sides were cops. That helps no one on many levels. Not just cops getting money for nothing but if someone really needs to get off drugs, throwing them in jail will just make sure that, when they get out, they can just do more drugs.


I totally agree here. It is obvious there needs to be a different approach to policing in this country. A lot of this is how cops are trained, and I think there is much room for improvement here. I dont know what the answer is, and given the strength of Police Unions in this country, this could be a difficult problem to solve. But rhetoric needs to watched too, because when people use the term Defund Police and then crime in that area goes up, it is not a good look at all for public officials.


Are there studies that show crime goes up when police are not around? It could be argued that Wheeler County Oregon has an exceptionally low crime rate because there are so few cops. Never mind that there are so few people.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
slider
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:34 pm

BN747 wrote:
slider wrote:
it is true that black lives matter, and I support the legitimate efforts to make social change in that regard.

But BLM--capital B, capital L, capital M, Black Lives Matter, is a radical organization based on their own words and dogma. BLM leaders Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors and Opal TometiIn adore Maduro and hung out together, openly claiming they are trained Marxists. Their list of demands is nothing but an extreme radical manifesto that is wholly incompatible with not only American ideals but also Western Civilization:

“We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear-family-structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and ‘villages’ that collectively care for one another.” Calls for abolishing all police and all prisons. It also calls for a “progressive restructuring of tax codes at the local, state and federal levels to ensure a radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth.” "the retroactive decriminalization, immediate release and record ­expungement of all drug-related offenses and prostitution and reparations for the devastating impact of the ‘war on drugs’ and criminalization of prostitution.”


Hawk Newsome, the president of NY BLM said, "I just want black liberation, and black sovereignty. By any means necessary.” They openly advocate for violent means. Forget about the troubling history of violent black liberation ideology, the fact they reject non-violence inherently should be concerning.

https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/06/ ... eslie-taha

Finally, and I say this sincerely because I don't think a lot of black people understand what they're supporting here--is that BLM supports "reproductive freedom" and are vehemently pro-choice. On the surface, a lot of Americans wouldn't disagree. But Planned Parenthood's own virulently racist founder Margaret Sanger led the charge for what (by her own words indicate) black genocide. She created it to exterminate black babies. That's fact, it's historical record and it's wholly ignored.

It's also the REAL tragedy in a fundamental plank of what BLM is all about. You can't have "liberation" if you murder your own before they even have a life to live.

Want real change? Start with black fatherhood, start by rebuilding the nuclear family, start by graduating HS, start by reforming police unions and ensuring accountability that way. You don't start by burning down neighborhoods (including black owned businesses), rioting, and turning people off to what *could* be a legitimate message of social reform.


Not quite to choice source on BLM, but I do commend your effort to take on the subject in this way, 10 years ago..there's no way you had come this far.

BN747


You can't even deliver a backhanded compliment without being patronizing and condescending. Good grief.

Newsflash: one can embrace racial equality and still be critical of the politics, people, and facets that all surround racial issues and...follow me here...NOT be racist. Shazam.
 
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c933103
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:42 pm

seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:

When a group of people are told to pull themselves up when they have nothing to pull themselves up by, Affirmative Action is needed. Things like quotas so that people can get into good schools are needed. Otherwise, some of the smartest people end up in the cycle of poverty.

This is the entire purpose of things like Vouchers, so that these people can attend these good schools you speak of. Vouchers actually help the minority community, but the democrats oppose them because of the Teachers Unions. The main problem with affirmative action is it discriminates against the other side. This is actually an area that Trump could really win over if he tried, since its obvious Biden cares more about Wealthy White suburban voters than the working class.


Vouchers help no one but the owners of the private schools. Sure, parents will get so much toward tuition but where does the rest of the money come from when a family has no money to begin with? Affirmative Action does not harm "the other side" at all. But, rather, gives "the other side" an opportunity to interact with minorities and those from other backgrounds. Not just ethnic but financial.

With Affirmative Action, White kids compete against White kids. If one White kid's grades are not as high and their extra curriculars are not what a college is looking for, they are losing out to other White kids.

A few question:
1. When different races are entering same school with different academic performance, do you think schools chould overcome their academics ability differences and give each of their students the most appropriate education and how?
2. I thought the intentional mixing of different race in school, aka through a quota based system, have been proven unpopular by member of multiple races and lead to prpblems like more segregated community and poorer public schools?
3. Do you think giving better school to people with lower academic performance alone is going to be enough for them to have the rope to pull themselves up? If so, then is this what's currently happening?
4. Can such policy be expanded to other non-education field to help those minority communities?

seb146 wrote:
Funding for the police can be moved to other services. Police do not need all that armament. They do not need better vehicles than our fighting men and women overseas. Move that money to places like Head Start or mental health services. When someone is in need of those but police are sent in and they simply arrest people who need mental health counseling or drug addiction counseling or children need someplace safe, why should cops be all that? I am reminded of the waste of taxpayer dollars on cops setting up a drug bust but both sides were cops. That helps no one on many levels. Not just cops getting money for nothing but if someone really needs to get off drugs, throwing them in jail will just make sure that, when they get out, they can just do more drugs.

From international examples, even when there are better mental health service or drug addict rehabilitation program, when there are emergency related to those then polices usually still have to present to prevent the situation expand to damage anybody around. They might also call in social workers and such, but in many times those would also be like in a special department of the law enforcement. And they cannot replace police because in many situation those often involve the need to first forcefully put a stop to what's happening before any communication can be made. How would defunding the police process all these situations?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
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BN747
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:04 pm

slider wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Finally, and I say this sincerely because I don't think a lot of black people understand what they're supporting here--is that BLM supports "reproductive freedom" and are vehemently pro-choice. On the surface, a lot of Americans wouldn't disagree. But Planned Parenthood's own virulently racist founder Margaret Sanger led the charge for what (by her own words indicate) black genocide. She created it to exterminate black babies. That's fact, it's historical record and it's wholly ignored.

It's also the REAL tragedy in a fundamental plank of what BLM is all about. You can't have "liberation" if you murder your own before they even have a life to live.

Want real change? Start with black fatherhood, start by rebuilding the nuclear family, start by graduating HS, start by reforming police unions and ensuring accountability that way. You don't start by burning down neighborhoods (including black owned businesses), rioting, and turning people off to what *could* be a legitimate message of social reform.


Not quite to choice source on BLM, but I do commend your effort to take on the subject in this way, 10 years ago..there's no way you had come this far.

BN747


You can't even deliver a backhanded compliment without being patronizing and condescending. Good grief.

Newsflash: one can embrace racial equality and still be critical of the politics, people, and facets that all surround racial issues and...follow me here...NOT be racist. Shazam.[/quote]

As much as you are patting yourself on the back for the 'progress' you've made over the past 20 years...at this point, there's still quite a ways to go.

But I acknowledge the change for the better in attitude on this subject.

And you should pat yourself on the back because you are the one to benefit from this step of enlightenment...not me. Most would say nothing here...but I did, sorry it's not the full congratulating compliment you had hoped for.

Helpful attitudes help society, shitty ones do nothing but harm it.

Self-improvement is personal journey and it ain't easy, especially for those not so young any longer.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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seb146
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:48 pm

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:
This is the entire purpose of things like Vouchers, so that these people can attend these good schools you speak of. Vouchers actually help the minority community, but the democrats oppose them because of the Teachers Unions. The main problem with affirmative action is it discriminates against the other side. This is actually an area that Trump could really win over if he tried, since its obvious Biden cares more about Wealthy White suburban voters than the working class.


Vouchers help no one but the owners of the private schools. Sure, parents will get so much toward tuition but where does the rest of the money come from when a family has no money to begin with? Affirmative Action does not harm "the other side" at all. But, rather, gives "the other side" an opportunity to interact with minorities and those from other backgrounds. Not just ethnic but financial.

With Affirmative Action, White kids compete against White kids. If one White kid's grades are not as high and their extra curriculars are not what a college is looking for, they are losing out to other White kids.

A few question:
1. When different races are entering same school with different academic performance, do you think schools chould overcome their academics ability differences and give each of their students the most appropriate education and how?
2. I thought the intentional mixing of different race in school, aka through a quota based system, have been proven unpopular by member of multiple races and lead to prpblems like more segregated community and poorer public schools?
3. Do you think giving better school to people with lower academic performance alone is going to be enough for them to have the rope to pull themselves up? If so, then is this what's currently happening?
4. Can such policy be expanded to other non-education field to help those minority communities?


1. People learn at different rates and with different styles. I can not learn anything by being talked at. Some people can. I feel I learn less with online classes. Others thrive with online classes. It has nothing at all to do with race.
2. The quota system for public schools has mixed reviews. It does give opportunities to people from poor neighborhoods.
3. If someone is not willing to put in the time, why should they be put in a better school? If someone asks to be moved to a better school, they should be able to do that. I think the way the country is going, students do not really see the point of going to a better school if their skin color is just going to make them a target by police anyway.
4. A good education should open doors anyway. Big companies do not seem to invest in poor neighborhoods. But, then, we are a retail based economy. We do not really manufacture anything. The jobs businesses want are either highly skilled or web based that people can do from home. No need for investment in large areas.

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Funding for the police can be moved to other services. Police do not need all that armament. They do not need better vehicles than our fighting men and women overseas. Move that money to places like Head Start or mental health services. When someone is in need of those but police are sent in and they simply arrest people who need mental health counseling or drug addiction counseling or children need someplace safe, why should cops be all that? I am reminded of the waste of taxpayer dollars on cops setting up a drug bust but both sides were cops. That helps no one on many levels. Not just cops getting money for nothing but if someone really needs to get off drugs, throwing them in jail will just make sure that, when they get out, they can just do more drugs.

From international examples, even when there are better mental health service or drug addict rehabilitation program, when there are emergency related to those then polices usually still have to present to prevent the situation expand to damage anybody around. They might also call in social workers and such, but in many times those would also be like in a special department of the law enforcement. And they cannot replace police because in many situation those often involve the need to first forcefully put a stop to what's happening before any communication can be made. How would defunding the police process all these situations?


Definitions have changed. People still use "defund" but it really means "move money to other useful things". So, police would still play some part but they would no longer have to be mental health counselors or drug addiction counselors or child welfare workers. Also, that money could be used for intense training for police so their first reaction when seeing a minority is not "shoot" but, rather "a person is doing something".

Some people in the United States still have this "wild West" mentality. Every problem can be solved with a shoot out. Good guys wear white hats, bad guys wear black hats. That is so a part of our culture. I think we need to unlearn that. We still have to many sterotypes enforced in this country. We really need to unlearn them. That would go a long way in healing this country.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GDB
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:35 pm

 
N757ST
Posts: 1106
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:39 pm

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Treat all Americans equally, regardless of skin color.

However, some in the movement seems to want more affirmative actions which is against this?


When a group of people are told to pull themselves up when they have nothing to pull themselves up by, Affirmative Action is needed. Things like quotas so that people can get into good schools are needed. Otherwise, some of the smartest people end up in the cycle of poverty.

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
As far as "defund" that was changed. People actually talked about "defund" and realized that simply taking money away from police would solve nothing. So, they decided that money should go to things like community health care centers, drug addiction counseling, mental health counseling, and education instead of simply throwing money at the police and expecting them to be a "one-size-fits-all" approach to community issues.

IMO, we still need to get rid of the racist cops. Their top priority is not to help minorities, especially when they see minorities as less than American.

So community service need more funding and racist cops should be removed. But why thay funding should be from police instead of trying to also put more funding into police as a form of service to community which as have been said need desperately more training?


Funding for the police can be moved to other services. Police do not need all that armament. They do not need better vehicles than our fighting men and women overseas. Move that money to places like Head Start or mental health services. When someone is in need of those but police are sent in and they simply arrest people who need mental health counseling or drug addiction counseling or children need someplace safe, why should cops be all that? I am reminded of the waste of taxpayer dollars on cops setting up a drug bust but both sides were cops. That helps no one on many levels. Not just cops getting money for nothing but if someone really needs to get off drugs, throwing them in jail will just make sure that, when they get out, they can just do more drugs.


Nothing says racial equality like rejecting a more qualified candidate based on their race. Should we just quota everything... no more then 20% Asian, no less then 15% black, no more then 30% white. It sure would suck to be a poor white or Asian kid in that system.
 
Sokes
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:02 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
"Rewarding women financially for having more kids?" - I like how you are placing all the blame on women here, as if they get pregnant all on their own. Instead f promoting sexist tropes, what we need is a level playing field. You want to policy women's bodies, lets police men's bodies as well. Women cant get abortions, fine, a woman is entitled to how much ever paternity tests she needs to find the father of her baby. Once that father is found, wage garnishment begins immediately. Men and women contribute equally to kids, make men have some skin in the game and I am sure you will see a change in patterns. But that will never happen because as always, men want to have their cake and eat it too.

Where was a claim made to police women's bodies? Not rewarding financially and policing are two different issues.

Equal chances for kids are anyway an impossibility.
I know children in India who study well because they think poverty sucks. Sitting down with a school book isn't a financial question.
If money scarcity leads to more stress which in turn leads to more fights, academic performance of children will suffer. But this is as much psychology as finance.

My son got best of grades in first standard. But I have a nagging wife and there is just no peace in the house. By now she fights more with him than with me. I saw his grades decreasing year by year.
There may be another factor for his decreasing grades, but then many things in life have more than one reason.
Often children don't perform if there are mental problems in the house. It's mostly not a financial problem.

Assuming it is a financial problem:
Equal chances for kids and free choice in number of children are conflicting aims. One has to choose one. If one chooses free choice for number of children, why should the taxpayer be responsible to equalise chances again?
Last edited by Sokes on Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:18 pm

N757ST wrote:
It sure would suck to be a poor white or Asian kid in that system.

India has this conflict. A certain percentage of seats is reserve for scheduled tribes and castes.
I think positive discrimination did a lot of good.

Maybe the US system is too federal. In Germany education is a state (as opposed to central) subject. Teacher qualification within one state is equal.
Funny, many Germans think France is too centralised. But if I see the US discussions about police and schooling there seems to be a fine line.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Kno
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:22 am

c933103 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
No one person is better than the next and until we recognize that then we will never have equality.

I would repeat my previous question toward another user, do you think it is a good idea to compensate historically underprivileged individuals by making them easier than others to receive education at state college, be employed at certain role, or get government contracts?


If a group of people have historically been oppressed and the effects of that oppression are still largely recent, and in some ways still active, are programs that prioritize said people really making it easier than it is for others? I think the compensation isn’t about making anything easier for others, it’s an attempt to bring the playing field a little closer to level.
 
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c933103
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:38 am

Kno wrote:

If a group of people have historically been oppressed and the effects of that oppression are still largely recent, and in some ways still active, are programs that prioritize said people really making it easier than it is for others? I think the compensation isn’t about making anything easier for others, it’s an attempt to bring the playing field a little closer to level.

Then, why isn't it done by increasing the chance through funding changes to make those population being able receive education in line with their ability?
Or, why is the plan being equalize their presence in institute instead of trying to enhance their ability toward the level of other races?
In fact, can it really be said that the situation of black being oppressed contrinuted to them having lower score? From some stories I recall isn't it more like some of them moght have same score as others but just couldn't sort out the financing which is probably a better way to help the population?
More fundamentally, why the black community, if without quota system, would be intaked less in systems like colleges? Was it because of their acadamic result? If so, what caused them having lower academic result than member of other ethnics in their earlier part of life? Wouldn't it be more helpful to correct those factors as those factors probably matter more than whatever quota their are on higher educational system?
And what exactly are those factors impacting their performance?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
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c933103
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:46 am

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Vouchers help no one but the owners of the private schools. Sure, parents will get so much toward tuition but where does the rest of the money come from when a family has no money to begin with? Affirmative Action does not harm "the other side" at all. But, rather, gives "the other side" an opportunity to interact with minorities and those from other backgrounds. Not just ethnic but financial.

With Affirmative Action, White kids compete against White kids. If one White kid's grades are not as high and their extra curriculars are not what a college is looking for, they are losing out to other White kids.

A few question:
1. When different races are entering same school with different academic performance, do you think schools chould overcome their academics ability differences and give each of their students the most appropriate education and how?
2. I thought the intentional mixing of different race in school, aka through a quota based system, have been proven unpopular by member of multiple races and lead to prpblems like more segregated community and poorer public schools?
3. Do you think giving better school to people with lower academic performance alone is going to be enough for them to have the rope to pull themselves up? If so, then is this what's currently happening?
4. Can such policy be expanded to other non-education field to help those minority communities?


1. People learn at different rates and with different styles. I can not learn anything by being talked at. Some people can. I feel I learn less with online classes. Others thrive with online classes. It has nothing at all to do with race.
2. The quota system for public schools has mixed reviews. It does give opportunities to people from poor neighborhoods.
3. If someone is not willing to put in the time, why should they be put in a better school? If someone asks to be moved to a better school, they should be able to do that. I think the way the country is going, students do not really see the point of going to a better school if their skin color is just going to make them a target by police anyway.
4. A good education should open doors anyway. Big companies do not seem to invest in poor neighborhoods. But, then, we are a retail based economy. We do not really manufacture anything. The jobs businesses want are either highly skilled or web based that people can do from home. No need for investment in large areas.


1. You have misunderstood my question. What I mean is, with affirmative action, the result is that academically less performing individual of some races are being put together with other individuals who are better performing in other races. Which artificially create a performance gap across race. Do you think this can be solved by schools?
3. If someone asks to be moved to a better school but the school have limited intakes that cannot accept everyone, what's your suggestion?
4. That is again not what I was asking. What I mean is aspects of affirmative action in non-education fields
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
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seb146
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:11 am

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
A few question:
1. When different races are entering same school with different academic performance, do you think schools chould overcome their academics ability differences and give each of their students the most appropriate education and how?
2. I thought the intentional mixing of different race in school, aka through a quota based system, have been proven unpopular by member of multiple races and lead to prpblems like more segregated community and poorer public schools?
3. Do you think giving better school to people with lower academic performance alone is going to be enough for them to have the rope to pull themselves up? If so, then is this what's currently happening?
4. Can such policy be expanded to other non-education field to help those minority communities?


1. People learn at different rates and with different styles. I can not learn anything by being talked at. Some people can. I feel I learn less with online classes. Others thrive with online classes. It has nothing at all to do with race.
2. The quota system for public schools has mixed reviews. It does give opportunities to people from poor neighborhoods.
3. If someone is not willing to put in the time, why should they be put in a better school? If someone asks to be moved to a better school, they should be able to do that. I think the way the country is going, students do not really see the point of going to a better school if their skin color is just going to make them a target by police anyway.
4. A good education should open doors anyway. Big companies do not seem to invest in poor neighborhoods. But, then, we are a retail based economy. We do not really manufacture anything. The jobs businesses want are either highly skilled or web based that people can do from home. No need for investment in large areas.


1. You have misunderstood my question. What I mean is, with affirmative action, the result is that academically less performing individual of some races are being put together with other individuals who are better performing in other races. Which artificially create a performance gap across race. Do you think this can be solved by schools?
3. If someone asks to be moved to a better school but the school have limited intakes that cannot accept everyone, what's your suggestion?
4. That is again not what I was asking. What I mean is aspects of affirmative action in non-education fields


There is a huge problem in American public schools. That is that some are under funded. Students who perform above average may not be above average because their school is well below average. Or a student who is exceptional may be average because their school is above average. There should be one standard for all schools. Some schools now think they are better because of (definition here) so blame public schools.

Affirmative Action should be used for students who work their behinds off and excel over students who skate by in average schools. Public schools. There are students in high end public schools who just are there and there are students in low end public schools who work hard and are seen as average or less.

Affirmative Action in non education is removing the "check your ethnicity" and "check your gender" boxes on application forms. Nothing more. If an applicant can not prove their worth in words, why hire them? If I submit an application at, say, Square and another person with programming and coding experience submits an application to Square, I expect my application to be moved to the bottom of the pile because I have no software experience at all. That has literally zero to do with my ethnicity.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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c933103
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:56 am

seb146 wrote:
There is a huge problem in American public schools. That is that some are under funded. Students who perform above average may not be above average because their school is well below average. Or a student who is exceptional may be average because their school is above average. There should be one standard for all schools. Some schools now think they are better because of (definition here) so blame public schools.

Affirmative Action should be used for students who work their behinds off and excel over students who skate by in average schools. Public schools. There are students in high end public schools who just are there and there are students in low end public schools who work hard and are seen as average or less.

Then, shouldn't the quota system be school-based instead of race-based?
Affirmative Action in non education is removing the "check your ethnicity" and "check your gender" boxes on application forms. Nothing more. If an applicant can not prove their worth in words, why hire them? If I submit an application at, say, Square and another person with programming and coding experience submits an application to Square, I expect my application to be moved to the bottom of the pile because I have no software experience at all. That has literally zero to do with my ethnicity.

Then, what do you think about the comment that, "After our state enacted the law to ban the consideration of race and gender and sexuality in government tender, the proportion of ethnic minority business winning government contract have fallen sharply, representing a step backward in our state's diversity progress. As a result we should revoke the ban." ?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:31 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I can't support a movement that has brought about so much violence in US cities. And many of the homes and businesses destroyed were owned by African Americans. How is that bringing justice or change? They're just hurting Black communities even more.

Having said that, I fully support changes in policing. The federal government should be the one investigating all instances of abuse or weapons discharge. Police departments cannot be trusted to investigate themselves. Any officer involved should be immediately suspended without pay. If any of us regular folks were to be arrested, we would almost assuredly lose our jobs. Body cameras should be mandatory. If cops have nothing to hide, why would they be opposed to them? And cops should have to purchase liability insurance. The taxpayers should foot the bill for their mistakes.

I also don't agree with having hate crimes. You aren't better than me or anyone else just because of your race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. And the same goes for cops. Injuring/killing a police officer should not bring increased charges. All crime should be treated equally. Isn't justice supposed to be blind? If someone murders me then I should receive the same justice as a cop that was murdered. No one person is better than the next and until we recognize that then we will never have equality. And no more fancy traffic-stopping funerals for cops paid for by the taxpayers. If their family wants that kind of lavish ceremony then they can pay for it.


I don't think balkanizing Americans is helpful at all. But I do think everybody deserves access to the success in the US system. Under-privileged people should get privileged access to a college education (and, they absolutely do). Anti-trust laws should be enforced. Large companies that have eaten up their market, including the market for government contracts, should not be allowed to merge. A set of corporate breakups should occur, not out of spite, but because their market power is unlawfully high, and it is not possible for them to continue legally.

There are certain steps that make the country function better and more fairly, and certain steps that make it function worse. Requiring a "right to housing" is bad, because centrally-planned distribution and production of resources is very inefficient and does not produce good products. The US housing sector produces very good products. Let it do its work, at which they are the expert and the government is not.

Giving somebody a "right to a middle class job" is also bad (soviet problem again). But in the hiring process, people should be evaluated for their talent and skill, not who their parents were. See the difference? In the past, if you had an Oxford or Harvard degree, it meant your dad was rich.
 
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seb146
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:23 pm

c933103 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
There is a huge problem in American public schools. That is that some are under funded. Students who perform above average may not be above average because their school is well below average. Or a student who is exceptional may be average because their school is above average. There should be one standard for all schools. Some schools now think they are better because of (definition here) so blame public schools.

Affirmative Action should be used for students who work their behinds off and excel over students who skate by in average schools. Public schools. There are students in high end public schools who just are there and there are students in low end public schools who work hard and are seen as average or less.

Then, shouldn't the quota system be school-based instead of race-based?
Affirmative Action in non education is removing the "check your ethnicity" and "check your gender" boxes on application forms. Nothing more. If an applicant can not prove their worth in words, why hire them? If I submit an application at, say, Square and another person with programming and coding experience submits an application to Square, I expect my application to be moved to the bottom of the pile because I have no software experience at all. That has literally zero to do with my ethnicity.

Then, what do you think about the comment that, "After our state enacted the law to ban the consideration of race and gender and sexuality in government tender, the proportion of ethnic minority business winning government contract have fallen sharply, representing a step backward in our state's diversity progress. As a result we should revoke the ban." ?


The "quota system" encourages minorities to apply themselves. It gives them an opportunity where they have none under a "no quota" system.

As far as winning government contracts without knowing the ethnicity or gender of the owners, that could be nepotism or friends doing favors for friends. I would need more information more than simply one statement.

There have been experiments where people would put an ethnic name on a resume or application for employment and they would not be given an interview but people with non-ethnic names are interviewed.

https://www.hcareers.com/article/career ... ting-hired
https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegass ... 9a330f50ed
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:36 pm

I really hope BLM and Antifa won't pull any stunts tomorrow. But I won't be surprised if they do. After all, Ilhan Omar reduced 9/11 to "some people did some things".
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:53 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I really hope BLM and Antifa won't pull any stunts tomorrow. But I won't be surprised if they do. After all, Ilhan Omar reduced 9/11 to "some people did some things".


Not this crap again. She put the blame squarely where it belongs - how she feels on that topic is pretty clear here at 12:50:

https://youtu.be/VXkVzaeWz1U

Do you disagree with her re a certain kingdom?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:14 am

Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I really hope BLM and Antifa won't pull any stunts tomorrow. But I won't be surprised if they do. After all, Ilhan Omar reduced 9/11 to "some people did some things".


Not this crap again. She put the blame squarely where it belongs - how she feels on that topic is pretty clear here at 12:50:

https://youtu.be/VXkVzaeWz1U

Do you disagree with her re a certain kingdom?


She has no business even speaking on the subject. She is the equivalent of a Pat Robertson or Rick Santorum on the right.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Question about BLM movement

Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:45 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I really hope BLM and Antifa won't pull any stunts tomorrow. But I won't be surprised if they do. After all, Ilhan Omar reduced 9/11 to "some people did some things".


Not this crap again. She put the blame squarely where it belongs - how she feels on that topic is pretty clear here at 12:50:

https://youtu.be/VXkVzaeWz1U

Do you disagree with her re a certain kingdom?


She has no business even speaking on the subject. She is the equivalent of a Pat Robertson or Rick Santorum on the right.


I welcome anyone speaking out against those responsible for 9/11 regardless.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

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Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos