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Dogman
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:36 pm

Mortyman wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
JJJ wrote:

I'd rather take the chances, thank you. China probably wants to keep selling stuff to France though.



Europe is strong enough for our military needs. Whatever can be improved it will have to be within the current budget.



And a polite decline is the right answer.


Haven’t read European history over the last century, I’m guessing. It was the hated US that brought peace there.




The Russians lost the most soldiers and civilians so I'm guessing the Russians. Far, far more than the USA .




It's not a competition, just facts.


May be because they didn't care how many of their own die. They were throwing poorly armed troops again Germans' forces, trying to overwhelm them with sheer numbers. Some of the German machine gunners ended up in the mental ward after mowing down countless numbers of the Soviet soldiers, only to see the new rows keep advancing at them. They probably did not know that behind these soldiers were Soviet machine gunners from NKVD who would kill anyone who would turn back. Only because the command wanted to liberate a certain city on a particular date, so it would look nice in the report.
And it was not only Russians who died. Both of my grandfathers were conscripted, only one came back. There were millions of Ukrainians, Belorussians, Uzbek, Kazakh, and many others who fought and died.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:45 pm

Mortyman wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
JJJ wrote:

I'd rather take the chances, thank you. China probably wants to keep selling stuff to France though.



Europe is strong enough for our military needs. Whatever can be improved it will have to be within the current budget.



And a polite decline is the right answer.


Haven’t read European history over the last century, I’m guessing. It was the hated US that brought peace there.




The Russians lost the most soldiers and civilians so I'm guessing the Russians. Far, far more than the USA .




It's not a competition, just facts.

We can agree the European part if WW2 was won and could have been lost in Russia.

But ignoring the mass US effort? Without the bombing campaign, Tigers would still have been produced at 105 per month and Panthers at 505. Without the US, Germany would have had the resources of most if Africa, Italy, and others. Recall Russia was drafting 15 year olds and women with 1/3rd of the German army fighting the US and UK and most of the aircraft.

I respect what Russia did. But until Swinefurt and the destruction of the Maybach plant, they were not retaining tanks (production was close to losses).

Please recall what happened to the parts of Europe occupied by Russia vs. the USA.

I never understood the often intense resentment the US generates in Europe. Would communism have been better?

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:15 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I never understood the often intense resentment the US generates in Europe. Would communism have been better?

Lightsaber

I think you’ll find that:

  • The level of resentment in Europe is SERIOUSLY over estimated (hello echo chamber!)
  • That some people can’t take criticism, which causes a perception of resentment.
  • That those people that do resent the USA (I won’t deny they exist], base their resentment on recent action of the last 20 or 30 years. For instance aggresive economic and ecological programmes, starting dubious wars in the ‘Stans and the middle-east, an increasing “with us or against us” attitude.
Attamottamotta!
 
Sokes
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:54 pm

marcelh wrote:
...during the Teheran and Yalta Conferences, Roosevelt gave Eastern Europe to Stalin in order to get Soviet support In the war against Japan. The western allies even halted at the Elbe because of the agreements to divide Germany post-war.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of it, but that makes sense.
Didn't Russia join the war against Japan when the war was basically over?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:05 pm

petertenthije wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I never understood the often intense resentment the US generates in Europe. Would communism have been better?

Lightsaber

I think you’ll find that:

  • The level of resentment in Europe is SERIOUSLY over estimated (hello echo chamber!)
  • That some people can’t take criticism, which causes a perception of resentment.
  • That those people that do resent the USA (I won’t deny they exist], base their resentment on recent action of the last 20 or 30 years. For instance aggresive economic and ecological programmes, starting dubious wars in the ‘Stans and the middle-east, an increasing “with us or against us” attitude.

Very true. Even my father started speaking like a disappointed lover with Bush.
In earlier years I was quite anti American. That changed only when I started attributing my life in peace to the US presence.
Till today I fluctuate between strong antipathy towards many US actions and a feeling of personal debt.
Well, the world is not black and white. One can't get a saint to do a hitman's job. Never was the world wealthier, still the world is comparatively peaceful.
It's maybe as good as it gets considering human's tendency to get carried away by emotions and group think.

Liberals have a weakness to believe and hope in a world of peace. That's a dangerous delusion.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:15 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Trump is the first President since Reagan not to start a war.
Lightsaber

I wasn't aware Reagan didn't start any wars.
That's kind of amusing.
Only Nixon could go to China.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
flyguy89
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:26 pm

JJJ wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

The point is about what's the point of power projection in the first place. EU nations keep a modest power projection capability because that's what works for them and fits just fine current and expected threats, and China just isn't one of them. EU has most of their guns pointing East just in case and China has potential adversaries surrounding them on all sides.

Not really a convincing argument however since the EU remains largely shielded by a mutual defense treaty with the only military power that outmatches China. The reason Europe's meak military power "works for them" and that threats remain low is because they currently have American firepower to back them up at the end of the day.


No. China just isn't a credible threat in any feasible scenario.

Define threat.

JJJ wrote:
Europe alone has enough equipment and manpower to keep Russia at bay and that's enough.

Questionable. Ukraine would like to have a word.

Kiwirob wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

The point is about what's the point of power projection in the first place. EU nations keep a modest power projection capability because that's what works for them and fits just fine current and expected threats, and China just isn't one of them. EU has most of their guns pointing East just in case and China has potential adversaries surrounding them on all sides.

Not really a convincing argument however since the EU remains largely shielded by a mutual defense treaty with the only military power that outmatches China. The reason Europe's meak military power "works for them" and that threats remain low is because they currently have American firepower to back them up at the end of the day. Not an equal distribution of the defense burden. Again, as an American, I'm all for the US standing in partnership with Europe to defend our interests, but it needs to be just that...a partnership and not an unequal guardian/dependant relationship.


So where is the military threat from China, as far as I can tell China has no territorial aspirations outside of its own in median vicinity.

Are we going to be so naive as to think territorial aspirations are the sole areas constituting threats?
 
JJJ
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:18 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
JJJ wrote:
You want a thank you card with a ribbon or something?

That's pretty arrogant, coming from Spain which stayed out of WW2.


Spain was too busy coming from a bloody civil war. And if anything it was a military dictatorship that had been propped up by Germany and Italy so if anything it would have joined the bad guys (which it was very close to).

I had two grandfathers fighting both in the Spanish Civil War then on to WW2, though.

But still that was a few decades ago, by that measure I presume you should be more thankful to the Soviets, then?
 
JJJ
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:22 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Not really a convincing argument however since the EU remains largely shielded by a mutual defense treaty with the only military power that outmatches China. The reason Europe's meak military power "works for them" and that threats remain low is because they currently have American firepower to back them up at the end of the day.


No. China just isn't a credible threat in any feasible scenario.

Define threat.


Let's get things straight, you're the one saying the EU needs to keep China in the bullseye. The onus is on you to provide a credible scenario in which any European nation and China have a military clash.

There's none.

JJJ wrote:
Europe alone has enough equipment and manpower to keep Russia at bay and that's enough.

Questionable. Ukraine would like to have a word.


Last I checked Ukraine is not in the EU.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:17 pm

JJJ wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

No. China just isn't a credible threat in any feasible scenario.

Define threat.


Let's get things straight, you're the one saying the EU needs to keep China in the bullseye. The onus is on you to provide a credible scenario in which any European nation and China have a military clash.

There's none.

I already provided you numerous examples. You can't be that myopic that you're only thinking in terms of head-to-head military clashes. There are many credible ways for the Chinese to apply pressure that I spelled out up-thread that wouldn't even require them to fire a shot.

JJJ wrote:
Last I checked Ukraine is not in the EU.

But still in Europe.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:17 am

marcelh wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
marcelh wrote:
It were the Allies who liberated Europe from the Nazis. Maybe you should read a better history book. And the only reason the US was part of it was because they wanted influence in a post-war Europe. It had nothing to do with “bringing peace”, just having influence in this part of the world.


Do you believe Britain and the French alone could have invaded the continent in 1944 successfully? The Soviets would have not only overrun Germany, they’d have continued to the Channel. Only the US, which also supplied the Soviets could have led the Normandy invasion. No Normandy and no race to Elbe Europe would be peaceful alright, peaceful saluting the hammer and sickle.

I do not downplay the US involvement in Europe during WW2, but there were many more countries involved than just the US. And about the hammer and sickle, during the Teheran and Yalta Conferences, Roosevelt gave Eastern Europe to Stalin in order to get Soviet support In the war against Japan. The western allies even halted at the Elbe because of the agreements to divide Germany post-war. And more important, the Soviets wanted already a western front In 1942.


What other countries but Soviet Union in the east and UK, rump France and Canada in the West? Countries capable of leading a cross-Channel invasion.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:22 am

Sokes wrote:
marcelh wrote:
...during the Teheran and Yalta Conferences, Roosevelt gave Eastern Europe to Stalin in order to get Soviet support In the war against Japan. The western allies even halted at the Elbe because of the agreements to divide Germany post-war.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of it, but that makes sense.
Didn't Russia join the war against Japan when the war was basically over?


Kicked the Japanese butt in Manchuria but they started after the first nuke was dropped. Fun fact, of all the pre-war non-aggression pacts the only one honored by both parties was the Russo-Japanese one.
 
Sokes
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What other countries but Soviet Union in the east and UK, rump France and Canada in the West? Countries capable of leading a cross-Channel invasion.

"The British Indian Army during World War II began the war, in 1939, numbering just under 200,000 men.[1] By the end of the war, it had become the largest volunteer army in history, rising to over 2.5 million men in August 1945.[1][2] Serving in divisions of infantry, armour and a fledgling airborne force, they fought on three continents in Africa, Europe and Asia.[1]

The British Indian Army fought in Ethiopia against the Italian Army, in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia and Algeria against both the Italian and German Army, and, after the Italian surrender, against the German Army in Italy. However, the bulk of British Indian Army was committed to fighting the Japanese Army, first during the British defeats in Malaya and the retreat from Burma to the Indian border; later, after resting and refitting for the victorious advance back into Burma, as part of the largest British Empire army ever formed. These campaigns cost the lives of over 87,000 Indian servicemen, while another 34,354 were wounded, and 67,340 became prisoners of war."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ar ... rld_War_II

87.000 dead Indian soldiers is nowhere near the around 400.000 dead soldiers Britain and US had each. But it isn't trivial either. It's about the same losses the French had during the Battle of France. "Only" 45.000 Canadian soldiers were killed.

IIRC the German engagement in North African desert sand was extreme material intensive. Moreover Churchill sent tanks to Russia when his own commanders demanded them. I think he was really smart.

Normally wounded are much more than fallen. I wonder what went wrong in the British Indian army.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
marcelh
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:53 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
marcelh wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Do you believe Britain and the French alone could have invaded the continent in 1944 successfully? The Soviets would have not only overrun Germany, they’d have continued to the Channel. Only the US, which also supplied the Soviets could have led the Normandy invasion. No Normandy and no race to Elbe Europe would be peaceful alright, peaceful saluting the hammer and sickle.

I do not downplay the US involvement in Europe during WW2, but there were many more countries involved than just the US. And about the hammer and sickle, during the Teheran and Yalta Conferences, Roosevelt gave Eastern Europe to Stalin in order to get Soviet support In the war against Japan. The western allies even halted at the Elbe because of the agreements to divide Germany post-war. And more important, the Soviets wanted already a western front In 1942.


What other countries but Soviet Union in the east and UK, rump France and Canada in the West? Countries capable of leading a cross-Channel invasion.

You convenient forgot your initial post stating the US did liberate Western Europe.
 
Mortyman
Topic Author
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:33 am

Kiwirob wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

The point is about what's the point of power projection in the first place. EU nations keep a modest power projection capability because that's what works for them and fits just fine current and expected threats, and China just isn't one of them. EU has most of their guns pointing East just in case and China has potential adversaries surrounding them on all sides.

Not really a convincing argument however since the EU remains largely shielded by a mutual defense treaty with the only military power that outmatches China. The reason Europe's meak military power "works for them" and that threats remain low is because they currently have American firepower to back them up at the end of the day. Not an equal distribution of the defense burden. Again, as an American, I'm all for the US standing in partnership with Europe to defend our interests, but it needs to be just that...a partnership and not an unequal guardian/dependant relationship.


So where is the military threat from China, as far as I can tell China has no territorial aspirations outside of its own in median vicinity.



We know for a fact that China has interests in the North and Arctic region. An area that has become of an increasing interest to several countries, including USA, Russia, China, Norway, Denmark, United Kingdom etc. This is due to ice melting and new and shorter transport lanes are opening and also various other interest such as oil, minerals and military interests.
 
Mortyman
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:57 am

lightsaber wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Haven’t read European history over the last century, I’m guessing. It was the hated US that brought peace there.




The Russians lost the most soldiers and civilians so I'm guessing the Russians. Far, far more than the USA .




It's not a competition, just facts.

We can agree the European part if WW2 was won and could have been lost in Russia.

But ignoring the mass US effort? Without the bombing campaign, Tigers would still have been produced at 105 per month and Panthers at 505. Without the US, Germany would have had the resources of most if Africa, Italy, and others. Recall Russia was drafting 15 year olds and women with 1/3rd of the German army fighting the US and UK and most of the aircraft.

I respect what Russia did. But until Swinefurt and the destruction of the Maybach plant, they were not retaining tanks (production was close to losses).

Please recall what happened to the parts of Europe occupied by Russia vs. the USA.

I never understood the often intense resentment the US generates in Europe. Would communism have been better?

Lightsaber



Where did I say I ignore the massive US effort ?? I know very well how many US soldiers were lost and the significant efforts of the US, including supplying Russia With material. But fact still remains, the Russians lost the most soldiers and civilians in the fight. Other countries that had very large numbers, were China, United Kingdom and common wealth countries, USA, Poland, France.

The problem With a lot of Americans is that they talk a lot about their own efforts and minimize, borderline ignore other countries efforts, especially Russia.
 
JJJ
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:22 am

flyguy89 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Define threat.


Let's get things straight, you're the one saying the EU needs to keep China in the bullseye. The onus is on you to provide a credible scenario in which any European nation and China have a military clash.

There's none.

I already provided you numerous examples. You can't be that myopic that you're only thinking in terms of head-to-head military clashes. There are many credible ways for the Chinese to apply pressure that I spelled out up-thread that wouldn't even require them to fire a shot.


No you haven't, not credible ones at least.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:59 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Not really a convincing argument however since the EU remains largely shielded by a mutual defense treaty with the only military power that outmatches China. The reason Europe's meak military power "works for them" and that threats remain low is because they currently have American firepower to back them up at the end of the day. Not an equal distribution of the defense burden. Again, as an American, I'm all for the US standing in partnership with Europe to defend our interests, but it needs to be just that...a partnership and not an unequal guardian/dependant relationship.


So where is the military threat from China, as far as I can tell China has no territorial aspirations outside of its own in median vicinity.



We know for a fact that China has interests in the North and Arctic region. An area that has become of an increasing interest to several countries, including USA, Russia, China, Norway, Denmark, United Kingdom etc. This is due to ice melting and new and shorter transport lanes are opening and also various other interest such as oil, minerals and military interests.


What territorial ambitions could they possibly have in the Arctic regions, none is the answer, at best opening the northern passage to year round shipping will cut transit time to Europe, that's also of interest to Europe and Asia plus Russia will make a killing providing icebreaker escorts, hence the 5 nuclear icebreakers under construction and plans on a new larger class are advancing quickly. Realistically Russia and Canada will end up with the most control over the region with the US, Denmark and Norway have a sliver each, there is no room for China or anyone else.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

The Russians lost the most soldiers and civilians so I'm guessing the Russians. Far, far more than the USA .

It's not a competition, just facts.

We can agree the European part if WW2 was won and could have been lost in Russia.

But ignoring the mass US effort? Without the bombing campaign, Tigers would still have been produced at 105 per month and Panthers at 505. Without the US, Germany would have had the resources of most if Africa, Italy, and others. Recall Russia was drafting 15 year olds and women with 1/3rd of the German army fighting the US and UK and most of the aircraft.

I respect what Russia did. But until Swinefurt and the destruction of the Maybach plant, they were not retaining tanks (production was close to losses).

Please recall what happened to the parts of Europe occupied by Russia vs. the USA.

I never understood the often intense resentment the US generates in Europe. Would communism have been better?

Lightsaber


The RAF dropped significantly more bombs on Germany then the USAF, 964,644 tons vs 623,418 tons.

The British defeated the Italians in Ethiopia, later the 8th Army had all but finished Germany's Afrika Corps, the Germans never had control over any African resources. The Italian campaign was a joint effort.
 
Mortyman
Topic Author
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:55 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

So where is the military threat from China, as far as I can tell China has no territorial aspirations outside of its own in median vicinity.



We know for a fact that China has interests in the North and Arctic region. An area that has become of an increasing interest to several countries, including USA, Russia, China, Norway, Denmark, United Kingdom etc. This is due to ice melting and new and shorter transport lanes are opening and also various other interest such as oil, minerals and military interests.


What territorial ambitions could they possibly have in the Arctic regions, none is the answer, at best opening the northern passage to year round shipping will cut transit time to Europe, that's also of interest to Europe and Asia plus Russia will make a killing providing icebreaker escorts, hence the 5 nuclear icebreakers under construction and plans on a new larger class are advancing quickly. Realistically Russia and Canada will end up with the most control over the region with the US, Denmark and Norway have a sliver each, there is no room for China or anyone else.



The keyword is CONTROL over passage
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:00 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Mortyman wrote:


We know for a fact that China has interests in the North and Arctic region. An area that has become of an increasing interest to several countries, including USA, Russia, China, Norway, Denmark, United Kingdom etc. This is due to ice melting and new and shorter transport lanes are opening and also various other interest such as oil, minerals and military interests.


What territorial ambitions could they possibly have in the Arctic regions, none is the answer, at best opening the northern passage to year round shipping will cut transit time to Europe, that's also of interest to Europe and Asia plus Russia will make a killing providing icebreaker escorts, hence the 5 nuclear icebreakers under construction and plans on a new larger class are advancing quickly. Realistically Russia and Canada will end up with the most control over the region with the US, Denmark and Norway have a sliver each, there is no room for China or anyone else.



The keyword is CONTROL over passage


Of course Russia and Canada will have control, both routes go through there territory. It will end up being a similar situation to Suez and Panama, it cuts the shipping distance and time considerably and will be a nice money earner for both countries.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:
But ignoring the mass US effort? Without the bombing campaign, Tigers would still have been produced at 105 per month and Panthers at 505.


As Kiwirob stated, the RAF dropped more bombs, but even then, those Tigers and Panthers wouldn't have had enough fuel to run on and would be driven by inexperienced crews. They were short of high-grade materials, and were prone to shattering. The quality of those tanks is also somewhat overstated.


lightsaber wrote:
Without the US, Germany would have had the resources of most if Africa, Italy, and others.


The British had mostly rounded up that campaign by the time the US got involved.


lightsaber wrote:
Recall Russia was drafting 15 year olds and women with 1/3rd of the German army fighting the US and UK and most of the aircraft.


Not quite. It varied over time, but at the time of the invasion in 1941 it was 86% of the Wehrmacht and all of the SS. Through the conflict it varied from 75% to 80%.

You also handily glossed over the fact that they also kept the Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Croats and Finns occupied over there, plus the elite of the German army was also sent east. The western front was manned by inexperienced forces often made up from reserves.

As for the Red Army drafting 15-year olds and women, I don't really get your point. Communism doesn't discriminate between men and women. The British still to the day accept recruits from the age of 16. The Red Army's use of child soldiers is way overstated, they were generally sent on secondary taskings in the far east to relieve units better suited for the frontline. In any case, it was nowhere near the extent to which the "fearsome" German military used children.


lightsaber wrote:
I never understood the often intense resentment the US generates in Europe. Would communism have been better?


Extreme wire-tapping that makes Stasi and KGB look like amateurs, lying about wars in the middle east, with us or against us threats, illegal abductions and inhumane CIA prisons, starting multiple wars in the middle east and sending waves of immigrants our way, ripping up deals with Iran, Victoria Nuland, war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, the current governments opposition to the EU, the previous US governments attempts to force US agricultural products onto our shelves, the list goes on and on. Did you honestly expect anybody to like you after all of that? Then you have all the internal aspects of your society that disgust most Europeans, like your 3rd world healthcare system, allowing faulty designs to fly or school shootings. Those net you about the same credit as Zimbabwe did for killing white farmers, or Ethiopia for its famines.

It is not what you did then, it is what you do now. You don't get a "bad behavior credit" for doing good things in the past. Doing bad things now instantly wipes out any goodwill you had previously.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:16 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Cool story. But I'm not buying it. Especially after all the doom and gloom from the first election. Remember when they claimed Trump was going to start wars, nuke the world, send dissenters to concentration camps? Yeah none of that happened. He's been the most anti-war president we've had in modern history.



Doesn’t mean it hasn’t been set in motion. If history tells us anything it’s that we take our rights for granted and they can be wiped away in short order.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:15 pm

Mortyman wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Mortyman wrote:



The Russians lost the most soldiers and civilians so I'm guessing the Russians. Far, far more than the USA .




It's not a competition, just facts.

We can agree the European part if WW2 was won and could have been lost in Russia.

But ignoring the mass US effort? Without the bombing campaign, Tigers would still have been produced at 105 per month and Panthers at 505. Without the US, Germany would have had the resources of most if Africa, Italy, and others. Recall Russia was drafting 15 year olds and women with 1/3rd of the German army fighting the US and UK and most of the aircraft.

I respect what Russia did. But until Swinefurt and the destruction of the Maybach plant, they were not retaining tanks (production was close to losses).

Please recall what happened to the parts of Europe occupied by Russia vs. the USA.

I never understood the often intense resentment the US generates in Europe. Would communism have been better?

Lightsaber



Where did I say I ignore the massive US effort ?? I know very well how many US soldiers were lost and the significant efforts of the US, including supplying Russia With material. But fact still remains, the Russians lost the most soldiers and civilians in the fight. Other countries that had very large numbers, were China, United Kingdom and common wealth countries, USA, Poland, France.

The problem With a lot of Americans is that they talk a lot about their own efforts and minimize, borderline ignore other countries efforts, especially Russia.


I specifically mentioned the Russians who would have liberated the whole of Europe without the American-led and supplied Normandy invasion who were joined by the UK and Canadians. There was widespread British reluctance to even invade per several histories. The WW I bloodbath in France really took a toll on British willingness to go again, but US military and political leadership pressed on. Churchill in ‘44 knew he and Britain were junior partners simply due to American money and logistics.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2628
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:09 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Cool story. But I'm not buying it. Especially after all the doom and gloom from the first election. Remember when they claimed Trump was going to start wars, nuke the world, send dissenters to concentration camps? Yeah none of that happened. He's been the most anti-war president we've had in modern history.



Doesn’t mean it hasn’t been set in motion. If history tells us anything it’s that we take our rights for granted and they can be wiped away in short order.


Uh, it's the Democrats that rallied for locking everyone in their houses and forcing masks on people. Democrats want to track your every move in the name of "public health". Trump has fought that every step of the way.
 
Sokes
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:13 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Remember when they claimed Trump was going to start wars, nuke the world, send dissenters to concentration camps? Yeah none of that happened. He's been the most anti-war president we've had in modern history.

Doesn’t mean it hasn’t been set in motion.

In the absence of evidence, doubts also work well in politics.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
flyguy89
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:20 am

JJJ wrote:
No you haven't, not credible ones at least.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on credible then.

VSMUT wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
But ignoring the mass US effort? Without the bombing campaign, Tigers would still have been produced at 105 per month and I never understood the often intense resentment the US generates in Europe. Would communism have been better?


Extreme wire-tapping that makes Stasi and KGB look like amateurs, lying about wars in the middle east, with us or against us threats, illegal abductions and inhumane CIA prisons, starting multiple wars in the middle east and sending waves of immigrants our way, ripping up deals with Iran, Victoria Nuland, war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, the current governments opposition to the EU, the previous US governments attempts to force US agricultural products onto our shelves, the list goes on and on. Did you honestly expect anybody to like you after all of that? Then you have all the internal aspects of your society that disgust most Europeans, like your 3rd world healthcare system, allowing faulty designs to fly or school shootings. Those net you about the same credit as Zimbabwe did for killing white farmers, or Ethiopia for its famines.

It is not what you did then, it is what you do now. You don't get a "bad behavior credit" for doing good things in the past. Doing bad things now instantly wipes out any goodwill you had previously.

Eh, the whole idea that Europeans hate Americans is overrated anyway. I've lived in Europe, have friends there, traveled extensively. Europeans on the main love America and Americans. Sure, there's a strand of "anti-Americanism" there that's probably overrepresented on this forum...and Trump certainly does us no favors, but generally speaking most Europeans are neutral/positive towards the US and Americans in my experience.
 
JJJ
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:24 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Eh, the whole idea that Europeans hate Americans is overrated anyway. I've lived in Europe, have friends there, traveled extensively. Europeans on the main love America and Americans. Sure, there's a strand of "anti-Americanism" there that's probably overrepresented on this forum...and Trump certainly does us no favors, but generally speaking most Europeans are neutral/positive towards the US and Americans in my experience.


I've lived in the US, have visited 80% of states, keep friends there. One to one, the relations are of course friendly but get politics in the mix and you'll see the cracks appear, which is why most polite conversation avoids it.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:27 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Eh, the whole idea that Europeans hate Americans is overrated anyway. I've lived in Europe, have friends there, traveled extensively. Europeans on the main love America and Americans. Sure, there's a strand of "anti-Americanism" there that's probably overrepresented on this forum...and Trump certainly does us no favors, but generally speaking most Europeans are neutral/positive towards the US and Americans in my experience.


They are just being nice to you.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3043
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:50 pm

VSMUT wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Eh, the whole idea that Europeans hate Americans is overrated anyway. I've lived in Europe, have friends there, traveled extensively. Europeans on the main love America and Americans. Sure, there's a strand of "anti-Americanism" there that's probably overrepresented on this forum...and Trump certainly does us no favors, but generally speaking most Europeans are neutral/positive towards the US and Americans in my experience.


They are just being nice to you.

Nah.
 
olle
Posts: 2378
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:52 pm

Mortyman wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Mortyman wrote:



The Russians lost the most soldiers and civilians so I'm guessing the Russians. Far, far more than the USA .




It's not a competition, just facts.

We can agree the European part if WW2 was won and could have been lost in Russia.

But ignoring the mass US effort? Without the bombing campaign, Tigers would still have been produced at 105 per month and Panthers at 505. Without the US, Germany would have had the resources of most if Africa, Italy, and others. Recall Russia was drafting 15 year olds and women with 1/3rd of the German army fighting the US and UK and most of the aircraft.

I respect what Russia did. But until Swinefurt and the destruction of the Maybach plant, they were not retaining tanks (production was close to losses).

Please recall what happened to the parts of Europe occupied by Russia vs. the USA.

I never understood the often intense resentment the US generates in Europe. Would communism have been better?

Lightsaber



Where did I say I ignore the massive US effort ?? I know very well how many US soldiers were lost and the significant efforts of the US, including supplying Russia With material. But fact still remains, the Russians lost the most soldiers and civilians in the fight. Other countries that had very large numbers, were China, United Kingdom and common wealth countries, USA, Poland, France.

The problem With a lot of Americans is that they talk a lot about their own efforts and minimize, borderline ignore other countries efforts, especially Russia.



Russia lost actually 5 million soldiers the last 12 month of the war against a total german army of 2.5 million.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3043
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:59 pm

JJJ wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Eh, the whole idea that Europeans hate Americans is overrated anyway. I've lived in Europe, have friends there, traveled extensively. Europeans on the main love America and Americans. Sure, there's a strand of "anti-Americanism" there that's probably overrepresented on this forum...and Trump certainly does us no favors, but generally speaking most Europeans are neutral/positive towards the US and Americans in my experience.


I've lived in the US, have visited 80% of states, keep friends there. One to one, the relations are of course friendly but get politics in the mix and you'll see the cracks appear, which is why most polite conversation avoids it.

Perhaps, but then that's also true within Europe itself. All depends on where you are and what your politics are.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3755
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:04 am

flyguy89 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Eh, the whole idea that Europeans hate Americans is overrated anyway. I've lived in Europe, have friends there, traveled extensively. Europeans on the main love America and Americans. Sure, there's a strand of "anti-Americanism" there that's probably overrepresented on this forum...and Trump certainly does us no favors, but generally speaking most Europeans are neutral/positive towards the US and Americans in my experience.


I've lived in the US, have visited 80% of states, keep friends there. One to one, the relations are of course friendly but get politics in the mix and you'll see the cracks appear, which is why most polite conversation avoids it.

Perhaps, but then that's also true within Europe itself. All depends on where you are and what your politics are.


Maybe you can recall the joke about the US Republicans being a bit like the British tories and US Democrats being a bit like.... British tories.

There's quite a bit of truth there.

Don't discuss politics in public, it's just not worth it.
 
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5871
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:59 am

lightsaber wrote:

I never understood the often intense resentment the US generates in Europe. Would communism have been better?

Lightsaber



What VSMUT wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

Extreme wire-tapping that makes Stasi and KGB look like amateurs, lying about wars in the middle east, with us or against us threats, illegal abductions and inhumane CIA prisons, starting multiple wars in the middle east and sending waves of immigrants our way, ripping up deals with Iran, Victoria Nuland, war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, the current governments opposition to the EU, the previous US governments attempts to force US agricultural products onto our shelves, the list goes on and on. Did you honestly expect anybody to like you after all of that? Then you have all the internal aspects of your society that disgust most Europeans, like your 3rd world healthcare system, allowing faulty designs to fly or school shootings. Those net you about the same credit as Zimbabwe did for killing white farmers, or Ethiopia for its famines.

It is not what you did then, it is what you do now. You don't get a "bad behavior credit" for doing good things in the past. Doing bad things now instantly wipes out any goodwill you had previously.




I think the problem Europeans have is first and fore most with Washington and your politics, not Americans in general. The last 30 years has changed the US drastically. Since the end of the Cold war you have chipped away little by little at the same values that we share ( or atleast we thought we shared ): The UN, NATO, WTO and some form of world order. Since the tragedy of 9/11 you have gone totally off the cliff. Instead of using that incident for something positive, the US has weakend world order and you have gone rogue.

Instead of using the immence political power that the US has to bring nations and people together and fight the good cause, the US has intentionally miss used inteligence information to start WARs and attack countries that had nothing to do With 9/11 and you have intentionally sabotaged any Peace deals that are not to your liking. The US has no respect for it's allies and different opinions.

When it comes to us Norwegians, the US bluntly ignored the inteligence information that we provided on Iraq and that Saddam had nothing to do With 9/11and no WMD and treatend Norway because we dared to point that out. The good relationship between our two countries and the almost open door we had to Washington DC was stopped because of that. The US has also intentionally sabotaged for 30 years now the Peace deal we tried to put together between the Palestinians and Israelis. Instead of using your Power to bring them together, you have as you always do, picked sides in conflict and sabotaged any attempt for peace between does two people from day one.


It has also become very populare in Washington to purpously lie about the type of economy and living we have in Norway and misslabeling it as socialism wich it is clearly not. It is a mixed economy, the same as all your major allies have and wich the US used to have back in the day, before Reaganomics


Those are just a few examples.



More than likely, we Europeans care more about Americans than the politicians in Washington
 
Sokes
Posts: 1877
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:09 pm

Mortyman wrote:

When it comes to us Norwegians, the US bluntly ignored the inteligence information that we provided on Iraq and that Saddam had nothing to do With 9/11and no WMD and treatend Norway because we dared to point that out. The good relationship between our two countries and the almost open door we had to Washington DC was stopped because of that. The US has also intentionally sabotaged for 30 years now the Peace deal we tried to put together between the Palestinians and Israelis. Instead of using your Power to bring them together, you have as you always do, picked sides in conflict and sabotaged any attempt for peace between does two people from day one.
...
More than likely, we Europeans care more about Americans than the politicians in Washington

The Bush administration wanted the war, so why would they appreciate your contradicting information?
I remember a discussion of the two German candidates for chancellor. Stoiber wanted to join the Iraq war, defendant chancellor Schroeder was against it. When Stoiber started with "weapons of mass destructions", Schroeder said he doesn't have any information about it. Indeed it was known that Schroeder and Bush didn't speak with each other. Other US-German channels were working as usual.

Bush was not exactly popular in Europe.
At least I assume I speak for a lot of Europeans here, but I'm happy to be corrected.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5871
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:49 pm

Sokes wrote:
The Bush administration wanted the war, so why would they appreciate your contradicting information?


Bush was not exactly popular in Europe.
At least I assume I speak for a lot of Europeans here, but I'm happy to be corrected.



Fair enough, but the US should have respected our choice and not treatend us then.
 
Sokes
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:25 am

Mortyman wrote:
Sokes wrote:
The Bush administration wanted the war, so why would they appreciate your contradicting information?


Bush was not exactly popular in Europe.
At least I assume I speak for a lot of Europeans here, but I'm happy to be corrected.



Fair enough, but the US should have respected our choice and not treatend us then.

If the Bush clan makes up stories to start a war and you contradict them, how can you expect not to be bullied?

I'm generally quite critical of media. But that US citizens didn't knew about the contradicting evidence when the rest of the world did doesn't throw a good light on US media.
A friend of mine (German) was on a cruise ship just before the Iraq invasion. At dinner he had a heated discussion with an American. My friend said there are no weapons of mass destruction, the American said that he is proud that at least the US takes action.

But before I blame the Americans:
Stoiber nearly won the elections. When I tried to raise the topic with Germans that we nearly attacked a country again nobody wanted to hear it.
Monkeys know which group they belong to. Self criticism is not the strong part of human nature.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
continental004
Posts: 438
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Re: Former PM of Sweden paints a grave picture of 4 more years of Trump and the future of USA and NATO

Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:57 pm

I would rather live under Communism than another four years of Trump.

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