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Aaron747
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:30 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Erebus wrote:
I keep holding out for a change in the US political system which has become rather unstable at this point. It is more or less a power struggle between two parties every two years with election campaigns pretty much lasting as long. No meaningful political objectives can be achieved if you're going to go through a cycle of overturning and blocking progress every two years.

And you ever wonder how it all got so hyper-polarized. Nobody is allowed to take a break from thinking about these things and Non-Aviation is proof enough of this. 15-20 years ago, there were a lot more interesting and fun non-aviation topics to discuss and share thoughts on and the occasional political one. It's entirely the opposite these days. This is one of my rare politics related post but I only drop in non-aviation to see if there's any interesting non-political topic to discuss. And that's not nearly as often as it used to be.


We won't get change until we get a third party. Again, the minority (fringes) get the most air time and most of the media are extreme and not interested in working together with the other party. That leaves the majority of independents with no representation.


It’s by design - this is how MSNBC and Fox hosts make $$$$. And the InfoWars, Limbaugh etc disgusto crowd too.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:52 pm

And it’s the Democrats setting up war rooms in case Trump wins re-election. They’ll try to sue and force state legislators to send a slate of Biden electors denying their states voters who elected Trump a say. It’ll be a real donneybrook in the courts, if Trump pulls off a repeat of 2016.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:36 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And it’s the Democrats setting up war rooms in case Trump wins re-election. They’ll try to sue and force state legislators to send a slate of Biden electors denying their states voters who elected Trump a say. It’ll be a real donneybrook in the courts, if Trump pulls off a repeat of 2016.


If you projected any harder, that would visible from the moon.


Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

We won't get change until we get a third party. Again, the minority (fringes) get the most air time and most of the media are extreme and not interested in working together with the other party. That leaves the majority of independents with no representation.


It’s by design - this is how MSNBC and Fox hosts make $$$$. And the InfoWars, Limbaugh etc disgusto crowd too.


Never mind that we already have plenty of 'third parties'. And they are all full of wacky extremist types who have been kicked out of real parties. I do not understand why people think junk becomes better when we increase the variety of bin types for it.



NIKV69 wrote:
I don't think a victory from Trump or Biden matters when it comes to the fact we need a third party. Half the electorate is not represented and has to vote for the less evil candidate. When the identity politics stop maybe we can get something done.


You will have as many false equivalency issues if that happened. The —somewhat obvious— evidence for that is that you do have all those choices now. Most are goofy losers, but there is nothing stopping you voting your conscience if you truly feel that way. Obviously you do not, but if you were to, it is now there.

seb146 wrote:
I was thinking of the election process and, to a lesser extent, the lobbying process. There must be some amount of money. But this idea of corporations deciding for the masses who is elected must stop. Thank you for asking.


Ok, but how are you trying to define where that money should come from? What if, as an example, I would like to donate several hundred thousand dollars to ensure that urban Democrats have the opportunity they need to come out and vote in a New swing state, like, say, Texas?

Campaign finance can, and often is, a more personal affair than simple matters of PACs and Super PACs...
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
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seb146
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:17 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And it’s the Democrats setting up war rooms in case Trump wins re-election. They’ll try to sue and force state legislators to send a slate of Biden electors denying their states voters who elected Trump a say. It’ll be a real donneybrook in the courts, if Trump pulls off a repeat of 2016.


https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/t ... s-n1186561
https://www.salon.com/2020/09/14/trump- ... N9OZD1QMzo

He is already telling his armed base to start war when he loses.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:20 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I was thinking of the election process and, to a lesser extent, the lobbying process. There must be some amount of money. But this idea of corporations deciding for the masses who is elected must stop. Thank you for asking.


Ok, but how are you trying to define where that money should come from? What if, as an example, I would like to donate several hundred thousand dollars to ensure that urban Democrats have the opportunity they need to come out and vote in a New swing state, like, say, Texas?

Campaign finance can, and often is, a more personal affair than simple matters of PACs and Super PACs...


I think it was Aaron who changed my mind about getting all money out. I think PACs must be dealt with separately from campaigns trying to elect candidates or pass bills. Look at it this way: on their salaries, both Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi are both multi millionares. That should not be possible. This is something that must change.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
NIKV69
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:23 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:


Never mind that we already have plenty of 'third parties'. And they are all full of wacky extremist types who have been kicked out of real parties. I do not understand why people think junk becomes better when we increase the variety of bin types for it.




This statement makes no sense. I am not talking about extremists I am talking about moderates. I don't see many Bernie Bros being kicked out the Dem party. They all believe the same thing. 70% taxation. open borders, no guns etc. Now if you are a Democrat that believes in fair taxation and common sense gun reform where we can still own guns like Joe Manchin you are not being represented by the Dem party and you aren't a wacky extremist. In fact you make up 50% up the electorate.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:32 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And it’s the Democrats setting up war rooms in case Trump wins re-election. They’ll try to sue and force state legislators to send a slate of Biden electors denying their states voters who elected Trump a say. It’ll be a real donneybrook in the courts, if Trump pulls off a repeat of 2016.


If you projected any harder, that would visible from the moon.

Then, why was Hilary Clinton telling Biden to never concede?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-e ... r-n1238156

Why did Podesta fight it out in a war game.

https://spectator.us/top-democrats-cont ... den-loses/

You’re the one projecting from Mars.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:50 pm

seb146 wrote:

I think it was Aaron who changed my mind about getting all money out. I think PACs must be dealt with separately from campaigns trying to elect candidates or pass bills. Look at it this way: on their salaries, both Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi are both multi millionares. That should not be possible. This is something that must change.



There is still a lot of should in that sentence. People have to have a reason to do their jobs. And the level of public scrutiny and/or notoriety that comes with these positions is not in anyway worth it if there is not substantial compensation for it. Would you be a Senator for a salary that would not make you a millionaire?


GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Then, why was Hilary Clinton telling Biden to never concede?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-e ... r-n1238156


This is a far more likely outcome and is based on things 45 has actually said and done. As opposed to the suppositions you prognosticate above.

I will say that given the amount of voter fraud 45 is attempting to encourage, you would be a fool to assume an obviously bogus result would somehow not be contested and eventually overturned. For that reason, there will not be any concession speeches that night, and that includes from 45. But you, of course, knew that.




NIKV69 wrote:
This statement makes no sense. I am not talking about extremists I am talking about moderates. I don't see many Bernie Bros being kicked out the Dem party. They all believe the same thing. 70% taxation. open borders, no guns etc.



Ok, you need to work on forming your thoughts more coherently. You will never make any progress here —or anywhere, really— when your definition of 'moderate' is a normal person's definition of 'right wing extremist'.

So firstly, no, it makes perfect sense. But if you are a right wing extremist and/or an Alt Right sympathizer, then, no, you would not be able to have gotten anything from that.

Next, again no, you would not see Bernie's supporters removed from the Party. This is because there is no reason for this. The DNC has adopted approximately Ninety percent of Bernie's planks. Study up on Kamala Harris' play to what was once considered the further reaches of the Left Wing to see this.


NIKV69 wrote:
Now if you are a Democrat that believes in fair taxation and common sense gun reform where we can still own guns like Joe Manchin you are not being represented by the Dem party and you aren't a wacky extremist. In fact you make up 50% up the electorate.


You do not know this, because you are not a Democrat, and thusly have demonstrated that you know very little about the DNC. This is understandable since your opinions are typically to the right of David Duke or Sheldon Adelson.

Most Democrats do have —and vote for— fairly reasonable taxation policies. Our goals center more around tax payers getting something out of the deal. Clearly, you do not favor that, but that does not make the DNC's general position unreasonable.
Gun reform is something we are also in line with about 90% of the general electorate on, so no controversies there either.

The people that have left the DNC are typically extremists in ways you not likely be able to recognize, leave alone meaningfully discuss. Ditto the garbage you guys throw out of the GOP. In fact, I would look for the latter to become more extreme as the GOP takes the upcoming loss as opportunity to Clean House of a lot of the MAGAs littering its ranks.

So again, if those are the 3rd parties you want, they do exist, and you will have the opportunity to vote in that direction.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
apodino
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:57 pm

So we have a situation now where the Democratic Party is working overtime to try to keep the Green Party off the ballot in many states. Krystal Ball had a great segment on this this morning on the rising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw4sOLfeHng

They succeeded in Wisconsin, but this issue is being litigated in other states. The democrats appear to be doing a lot of what they accuse republicans of doing. And this is a very bad look in my opinion, as you are taking choices away from the voters by doing this. And keeping a guy like Howie Hawkins off the ballot is not the way to win over the Bernie wing of the Left, who Biden really needs in key battleground states. This is just another middle finger at that group.

Furthermore, Newsmax is reporting that even if the Democrats win the senate, and the White House, they have no intention of repealing the Trump Tax cuts.

https://www.newsmax.com/politics/democrats-tax-plan-legislation/2020/09/15/id/986997/

More proof that the establishment wont give up power at all, and when voters have other options, they will stop at nothing to quash them.
 
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seb146
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:22 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
seb146 wrote:

I think it was Aaron who changed my mind about getting all money out. I think PACs must be dealt with separately from campaigns trying to elect candidates or pass bills. Look at it this way: on their salaries, both Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi are both multi millionares. That should not be possible. This is something that must change.



There is still a lot of should in that sentence. People have to have a reason to do their jobs. And the level of public scrutiny and/or notoriety that comes with these positions is not in anyway worth it if there is not substantial compensation for it. Would you be a Senator for a salary that would not make you a millionaire?


I would love to serve two or three terms as a Senator, then retire, write a book or two, make bank off speaking fees, have full coverage health care for life and retirement. I would love that!

Senators get a base salary. McConnell and Schumer are paid more for their added duties. No one should disagree with that. However, they get extra money from companies. "Gifts" so they sponsor or help pass different bills. Bribes, is another word for it. Elected officials should work for us, not those who bribe them. If Senators or House members want to be millionaires, great. Do it after their service to We The People.

And, yes, I do use the word "should" because these are my opinions.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
NIKV69
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:20 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:


You do not know this, because you are not a Democrat, and thusly have demonstrated that you know very little about the DNC. This is understandable since your opinions are typically to the right of David Duke or Sheldon Adelson.

Most Democrats do have —and vote for— fairly reasonable taxation policies. Our goals center more around tax payers getting something out of the deal. Clearly, you do not favor that, but that does not make the DNC's general position unreasonable.
Gun reform is something we are also in line with about 90% of the general electorate on, so no controversies there either.

The people that have left the DNC are typically extremists in ways you not likely be able to recognize, leave alone meaningfully discuss. Ditto the garbage you guys throw out of the GOP. In fact, I would look for the latter to become more extreme as the GOP takes the upcoming loss as opportunity to Clean House of a lot of the MAGAs littering its ranks.

So again, if those are the 3rd parties you want, they do exist, and you will have the opportunity to vote in that direction.


You words are eloquent but the actions of the DNC speak quite differently. Like how every primary Bernie and Warren are front an center. Fair taxation? Not quite. Also I am not sure what opinions of mine are so far right. Post a few so I can see what you mean. My tax beliefs are quite mainstream. I sure can't understand why most of us have to pay one thing and the rich have to pay twice as much but that is another thread. As is the gun issue but I will say if this 90% of the electorate thought the same way as the Dems do the states would not have gone Red.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:17 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Like how every primary Bernie and Warren are front an center.


Every? There have been two that featured both. One of which lead to this year's General.

In any case, Bernie and Warren are now fairly close to what contemporary Democrats recognize as mainstream. So, to take this back on topic with regard to your original postulation, there would not be a need for a 'third' party to address the things they bring to the Democrats, as their planks have been largely adopted.


NIKV69 wrote:
Also I am not sure what opinions of mine are so far right. Post a few so I can see what you mean.


Or I could just direct you to reread your own comments from a sentence ahead in the same replay you have made...

NIKV69 wrote:
I sure can't understand why most of us have to pay one thing and the rich have to pay twice as much but that is another thread. As is the gun issue but I will say if this 90% of the electorate thought the same way as the Dems do the states would not have gone Red.


I am not sure what you want to hear about that. Arguing from a false premise, as you there are, means you can be accused of wishful thinking. But it is hardly worth answering if you will not be factual about it.
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NIKV69
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:37 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Or I could just direct you to reread your own comments from a sentence ahead in the same replay you have made...


You made the charge so again please produce these far right stances I have.


DarkSnowyNight wrote:
I am not sure what you want to hear about that. Arguing from a false premise, as you there are, means you can be accused of wishful thinking. But it is hardly worth answering if you will not be factual about it.


Talking about a false premise is the left's favorite catch phrase "pay their fair share" which is another propaganda term designed to shame the rich. Again what is their fair share? If you want to have a tax debate it's like anything else. You need numbers. You referenced Sheldon Adelson and he is quoted as asking why he should pay a higher percentage of his earnings in taxes? It's a fair question. Is it 40%? Is it 60% as I have heard Robert Reich (one of the darlings of the Democratic party) say he feels it just. If you want to accuse people about not being factual lets start with a tax debate that is constructive, that can work and doesn't demonize the people already paying the lion's share of the the tax burden by merely inferring they should pay more because they can afford it.
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Aaron747
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:59 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Or I could just direct you to reread your own comments from a sentence ahead in the same replay you have made...


You made the charge so again please produce these far right stances I have.


DarkSnowyNight wrote:
I am not sure what you want to hear about that. Arguing from a false premise, as you there are, means you can be accused of wishful thinking. But it is hardly worth answering if you will not be factual about it.


Talking about a false premise is the left's favorite catch phrase "pay their fair share" which is another propaganda term designed to shame the rich. Again what is their fair share? If you want to have a tax debate it's like anything else. You need numbers. You referenced Sheldon Adelson and he is quoted as asking why he should pay a higher percentage of his earnings in taxes? It's a fair question. Is it 40%? Is it 60% as I have heard Robert Reich (one of the darlings of the Democratic party) say he feels it just. If you want to accuse people about not being factual lets start with a tax debate that is constructive, that can work and doesn't demonize the people already paying the lion's share of the the tax burden by merely inferring they should pay more because they can afford it.


The US experienced its greatest economic expansion from 1955-1972 when annualized GDP exceeded 5% eleven times. Perhaps we should go back to the marginal tax rates from that era. Heck, with a decent job in almost any city, only one breadwinner was needed to have an average home and two kids. That economy sounds great compared to the one now where both parents definitely need to work and executive pay grows 1000% in 20 years while the middle class stays relatively flat.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:15 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Or I could just direct you to reread your own comments from a sentence ahead in the same replay you have made...


You made the charge so again please produce these far right stances I have.


DarkSnowyNight wrote:
I am not sure what you want to hear about that. Arguing from a false premise, as you there are, means you can be accused of wishful thinking. But it is hardly worth answering if you will not be factual about it.


Talking about a false premise is the left's favorite catch phrase "pay their fair share" which is another propaganda term designed to shame the rich. Again what is their fair share? If you want to have a tax debate it's like anything else. You need numbers. You referenced Sheldon Adelson and he is quoted as asking why he should pay a higher percentage of his earnings in taxes? It's a fair question. Is it 40%? Is it 60% as I have heard Robert Reich (one of the darlings of the Democratic party) say he feels it just. If you want to accuse people about not being factual lets start with a tax debate that is constructive, that can work and doesn't demonize the people already paying the lion's share of the the tax burden by merely inferring they should pay more because they can afford it.


The US experienced its greatest economic expansion from 1955-1972 when annualized GDP exceeded 5% eleven times. Perhaps we should go back to the marginal tax rates from that era. Heck, with a decent job in almost any city, only one breadwinner was needed to have an average home and two kids. That economy sounds great compared to the one now where both parents definitely need to work and executive pay grows 1000% in 20 years while the middle class stays relatively flat.


If you think the high and many tax rates (it wasn’t unusual to get a pay raise in 1972 and take home less money, I did it at about $4/hour) were the cause of high growth rates, you’re ignoring lots of economic history. Like the US imported little, inflation was low, it was a dominant world economic player, very youthful, childbearing generation post-WW II. Live today like you did then, and any family could live on one income—house half the size of today, one dial phone, no cable or internet, few children going to college.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:21 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

You made the charge so again please produce these far right stances I have.




Talking about a false premise is the left's favorite catch phrase "pay their fair share" which is another propaganda term designed to shame the rich. Again what is their fair share? If you want to have a tax debate it's like anything else. You need numbers. You referenced Sheldon Adelson and he is quoted as asking why he should pay a higher percentage of his earnings in taxes? It's a fair question. Is it 40%? Is it 60% as I have heard Robert Reich (one of the darlings of the Democratic party) say he feels it just. If you want to accuse people about not being factual lets start with a tax debate that is constructive, that can work and doesn't demonize the people already paying the lion's share of the the tax burden by merely inferring they should pay more because they can afford it.


The US experienced its greatest economic expansion from 1955-1972 when annualized GDP exceeded 5% eleven times. Perhaps we should go back to the marginal tax rates from that era. Heck, with a decent job in almost any city, only one breadwinner was needed to have an average home and two kids. That economy sounds great compared to the one now where both parents definitely need to work and executive pay grows 1000% in 20 years while the middle class stays relatively flat.


If you think the high and many tax rates (it wasn’t unusual to get a pay raise in 1972 and take home less money, I did it at about $4/hour) were the cause of high growth rates, you’re ignoring lots of economic history. Like the US imported little, it was a dominant world economic player, very youthful, childbearing generation post-WW II.


I have no illusions - interviewed twenty old-timers about their work and income situations in the 1960s for my thesis ages ago. But the kicker to the small imports picture is that in addition to manufacturing jobs, we had a Main Street capitalism back then that allowed middle class families to serve their communities and compete locally. That too was eventually destroyed by executives chasing endless valuation. I was responding to the fact NIK seems oh-so-worried about how unfair things are for the old money class. Let's not also ignore taxation of that time funded a lot of great infrastructure and massive government outlays on R&D that some of our great companies still around today used for quantum leap innovations.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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c933103
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Re: Could a democratic victory spell the decline of a 2-party system?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:45 am

.... With what I read about the American Democratic Party candidate's performance, I would more worry about if Democratic Party lose, could they become like Japan's left wibg parties or South Korea's Right Wing Party, losing significance and losing the hope to win the next election, thus enabling a pseudo-single-party-rule by party from the other side, and fueling a sense of distrust against the system among their own followers.
One thing both Japan's left wing and Korea's right wing are both doing now and causing their failurs is that, their platform isn't based on how attractive they are and why they should be elected to lead the country, instead their platform is trying to "Stop the other party's leader from leading the country into the wrong way", which is something that cannot really help them gain support, and cause their chance of getting elected keep on reducing every times. The Democratic Party in the United States seems to be repeating the same failurs of those Asian political parties.
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