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Aaron747
Posts: 12978
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Possibly of Everything Closing Down Across Northern Hemisphere in Fall 2020

Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:40 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

The interests of the majority must be upheld. The majority will have zero issues if they catch the virus. We tried the lockdown. It didn't work. We've worn the masks which they swore would work. Apparently they don't work very well either or you wouldn't see Europe shutting down again. Europeans are far more eager to please their government than Americans so I'm guessing that mask use was pretty much 100%.


You’re looking at the wrong examples of mask use because many Europeans have obviously been noncompliant. Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Thailand and Vietnam are doing far better than European countries. Why? Mask compliance.


Those cultures have high compliance because of their respect for authority. But that creates other problems like Korean Air still crashing planes long after CRM was adopted because of scared FO's who won't question the captain. It isn't all happy happy joy joy.


We are talking about results of mask compliance, not Korean Air CRM. And that was OZ, not KE. KE has an excellent safety record since their last incident in 1999. On an Av-forum no less :sarcastic: Why is it impossible to have a discussion without non sequitur mania?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3246
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Possibly of Everything Closing Down Across Northern Hemisphere in Fall 2020

Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:00 am

Aesma wrote:
What happened if you didn't stay at home ?

Depends on where you live. In NYC large gatherings were disbursed by police, in California surfers were fined, etc. Like I said, not as harsh as the Italian or Spanish lockdowns, but nonetheless people were ordered to stay home and non-essential business were closed and activities curtailed.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21966
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Possibly of Everything Closing Down Across Northern Hemisphere in Fall 2020

Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:16 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
What happened if you didn't stay at home ?

in California surfers were fined, etc.


At least here in the Bay Area, we have been allowed to swim in the Bay ever since the start of the pandemic. I would have gone looney if I hadn't been able to swim at all.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
olle
Posts: 2656
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Possibly of Everything Closing Down Across Northern Hemisphere in Fall 2020

Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:18 pm

M564038 wrote:
olle wrote:
Sweden will not do lockdown.

But 4 weeks ago restaurants bars etc had people now most of them are quit empty.

Authorizies start to veryfy social distancing much more strict since a few days back.

Stockholm region and Skåne / Scania has fast increasing numbers of cases. Scania still has much lower yhen the neighbouring copenhagen but denmark is closing it borders again.

Norway and finland never opened...


But Norway has had less measures in place than sweden since May. We werr successful this spring and had 1/10 the cases of sweden because we started the distancing earlier, swifter and slightly stricter than sweden. We opened to most of the world during summer(except the extreme countries) with much less strict rules and recommandations than sweden, and remain semi-open, although we are seeing a spike in cases at the moment, so this time we are trying masks recommended for the first time, as a method of not having to close schools.


Sweden or rather Stockholm had a terrible spring but right now it seems like we still do better then many other parts of Europe.

Norway should take notise while the number of cases going straight up and right now has around 60 cases / 100000 citizen which is worse then for example the region Värmland in Sweden Sweden and Denmark was on the same level 1-2 weeks ago so things seems to go fast.

From a Swedish perspective we see that Denmark is much more quiet now when they have the worse numbers in Scandinavia ;-)

Number of dead in Sweden is still on level of Norway and Finland while Denmark is going up fast in combination with increased cases in hospitals.

You are totally correct that Sweden has got more restrictions or recommendations then many other parts of Europe during the summer and that is in line with what authorizes strategy that the strategy shall not change to often. This is very different compared to other part of Europe where regulations seems to change frequent.
 
yonahleung
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:55 am

Re: Possibly of Everything Closing Down Across Northern Hemisphere in Fall 2020

Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:48 pm

I suppose the easy solution is to force everyone to wear surgical masks whenever they are in the proximity of anyone not in their household. That seems the only way to avoid harsh lockdowns where nothing is getting done.

Seriously, is it that hard to stick to the face mask etiquette of wearing your mask at all times? washing your hands with some alcohol sanitisers every time we touch something that is dubious (be it a public surface or the exterior of your mask). This is the most effective way to reduce the spread of Covid.

Mask use is not your feel good wearing your mask covering just your mouth and not your nose, nor wearing it for 15 minutes and then putting it down for 45. Not wearing the mask properly kills.

And for those who remotely suggests that way we will have a shortage of surgical masks that way, in Hong Kong we are awashed with an over abundance supply of surgical masks and I can get you ASTM Level 1,2 or 3 masks at any quantity you would like at less than 0.3USD per piece. Mask manufacturers here are suggesting that they will go out of business soon if demand continues to be low.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 12978
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Possibly of Everything Closing Down Across Northern Hemisphere in Fall 2020

Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:53 pm

yonahleung wrote:
I suppose the easy solution is to force everyone to wear surgical masks whenever they are in the proximity of anyone not in their household. That seems the only way to avoid harsh lockdowns where nothing is getting done.

Seriously, is it that hard to stick to the face mask etiquette of wearing your mask at all times? washing your hands with some alcohol sanitisers every time we touch something that is dubious (be it a public surface or the exterior of your mask). This is the most effective way to reduce the spread of Covid.

Mask use is not your feel good wearing your mask covering just your mouth and not your nose, nor wearing it for 15 minutes and then putting it down for 45. Not wearing the mask properly kills.

And for those who remotely suggests that way we will have a shortage of surgical masks that way, in Hong Kong we are awashed with an over abundance supply of surgical masks and I can get you ASTM Level 1,2 or 3 masks at any quantity you would like at less than 0.3USD per piece. Mask manufacturers here are suggesting that they will go out of business soon if demand continues to be low.


It really is not that difficult to properly comply, as you say. I personally don't understand it at all. Laziness/selfishness is the only explanation for being unable to wear masks properly.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
M564038
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Possibly of Everything Closing Down Across Northern Hemisphere in Fall 2020

Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:50 pm

The problem is that masks just aren’t that effective.
They do increase the margins, but all of the «90% reduction» chit-chat, gives the wrong impression.

Time + distance + airflow + number of peope are the biggies.

This is why you see such huge differences even between very similar cultures and social groups.

If your body language culturally makes you closer even when trying to distance-> huge difference. [unscientific:]This is a biggie in the US in my opinion. People are CLOSE, even when distant.[/unscientific]

How loud do you talk? Loud talking are incredibly much more infectious than soft or silent.

How many people live together? -> poor people live closer and gets more infected.

Do you have proper ventilation? Do you live in a climate that lets you be social outdoors? Congrats. That gives a huge risk-reduction.


So, yes, masks help, but they are not going to let tou live like the virus isn’t there.



yonahleung wrote:
I suppose the easy solution is to force everyone to wear surgical masks whenever they are in the proximity of anyone not in their household. That seems the only way to avoid harsh lockdowns where nothing is getting done.

Seriously, is it that hard to stick to the face mask etiquette of wearing your mask at all times? washing your hands with some alcohol sanitisers every time we touch something that is dubious (be it a public surface or the exterior of your mask). This is the most effective way to reduce the spread of Covid.

Mask use is not your feel good wearing your mask covering just your mouth and not your nose, nor wearing it for 15 minutes and then putting it down for 45. Not wearing the mask properly kills.

And for those who remotely suggests that way we will have a shortage of surgical masks that way, in Hong Kong we are awashed with an over abundance supply of surgical masks and I can get you ASTM Level 1,2 or 3 masks at any quantity you would like at less than 0.3USD per piece. Mask manufacturers here are suggesting that they will go out of business soon if demand continues to be low.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10395
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Possibly of Everything Closing Down Across Northern Hemisphere in Fall 2020

Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:04 pm

My understanding is that the mask protects others from you, more than you from them.

I suppose the question is 'if you can't be bothered to protect me, why should I bother to protect you'.

End result, you both get COVID.
 
olle
Posts: 2656
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Possibly of Everything Closing Down Across Northern Hemisphere in Fall 2020

Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:30 am

Why is eastern Europe that did so well in the spring bad hit now?
 
olle
Posts: 2656
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Possibly of Everything Closing Down Across Northern Hemisphere in Fall 2020

Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:08 pm

I would like to give a reflection;

The very (what the rest of the world consider) liberal swedish approach in the spring was;

Schools for smaller children stays open older children distance education
People shall work we cannot close the industry, construction sites etc
Limit social activities at pubs, restaurants, presentations etc. Maintain social distance.
Masks is a risk if bad handled. Makes people not do social distancing.
Limit public transportation to the most needed - other shall work from home
Close access to nursery homes for older and weak people
Borders was kept open but limitation of 2 hours drive from home was blocked.

Example a person from Stockholm was not allowed in Värmland but a person from Norway could enter. A person from Norway Oslo or Stockholm was not allowed to go to Scania / Malmö but a person from Denmark / Copenhagen was.

Many other countries closed everything and did not let people walk in the streets.

When I see the response now in the second wave I can see a few things;

Schools for small children will be open in most countries
Industries will not be closed
Pubs is beeing closed but like spain suddenly open when tourists is about to arrive :-)
Most countries except Sweden consider masks important. I believe Sweden do the wrong thing here.
Public transportation is open but with masks in Sweden only filled 50%
access to nursery home still open in most countries
Borders is closing again except to Sweden
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