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Waterbomber2
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Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:18 pm

In the first wave of Covid, Germany was celebrated for their miraculously low Covid death toll.
https://www.livescience.com/germany-cor ... o-low.html

Nobody could explain it, some tried to explain it saying that Germany had better hospitals and more ICU capacity compared to its peers, none of which is true.
So in my opinion, like many other industrial countries like Japan and China, Germany had chosen to keep things looking good and to keep its factories running by testing the healthy and ignoring the sick, so that people would still feel relatively safe going out and working. Germany was one of the first to fire up the car industry after a brief lock down in March-April.

First-hand reports are that many people who felt very ill in March were invited to call a phone number that no one would answer.
When they finally got in touch with someone, instead of being invited for testing, they were invited to stay home until they felt better.



More recently, Covid results seem to be disappearing left and right.
Sometimes they seem so busy hiding the numbers that they even forget to notify the positive people.


Germany fails to inform 900 people that tested positive for Covid-19
The Health Minister of the state Bavaria and the President of the Bavarian State Office for Health and Food Safety have announced that out of 85,000 Covid-19 tests around 44,000 results haven't been communicated to the tested people.

Among these results are 900 positives ones. According to Bavarian Health Minister Melanie Huml "there is a transmission problem, there's nothing to gloss over" as most of the data needs the be entered manually into the systems.

She stated that is has top priority to inform the people that have testes positive and that they should be informed by noon tomorrow. Currently, the wait for test results takes often a week or longer.


https://pendect.com/categories/politics ... r-covid-19


More concerning is the incredible trend that every neighboring country is showing serious spikes of new Covid cases, while Germany's new cases are flat.
It is so incredible that it's actually impossible.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Germany:

Image



I've been tracking Germany's cases in March, and there too, the new cases statistics seemed to be pegged to the French new cases. Always a little bit behind the French, never ahead.

Some reporting is also giving a very different perspective on the German response. Apparently, they were testing healthy people, which would look good on the statistics, but sick people were not being tested.

Moreover, Germany's center for disease control, the Robert Koch Institute, has criticized Germany's methods of testing, complaining for example that too many asymptomatic individuals were being tested. The RKI called for an end to this practice on the grounds that Germany could risk running out of tests. Therefore, asymptomatic people are currently not being recommended for testing.

https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-coronavi ... a-53053822


It also debunks some of the myths that other news media used to explain Germany's alleged success.

Germany does have a robust public healthcare system that for now appears to be weathering the storm. As in many countries, however, medical professionals in respiratory and intensive care report being massively overworked, and there is a risk of running out of protective equipment. While Germany has enough hospitals, they are chronically understaffed, and medical students are now helping out in the most overwhelmed units. (...)

Statistics about the number of intensive care beds in the country are often cited as proof of Germany's superior preparedness to handle this crisis. However, German officials report disparate figures. (...)

As for advanced planning, Germany's lockdown and social distancing regulations were put in place more than a week after fellow EU members France, Austria, and Spain had imposed similar policies. Despite what was happening in Italy in early March, Germany was actually much slower to react than its neighbors.


https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-coronavi ... a-53053822



And then there is Angela Merkel.
In her own words : Lies are "no way to fight the pandemic" . Spoken like a true liar.

https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news ... a4bea47e8c


So my opinion is that Germany is adopting the strategy of "learning to live with Covid", deciding to keep Covid curves looking good, so that people and the economy stay at work as long as possible, at the expense of deaths that they will most certainly try to hide, then try to come out of the crisis looking good and pointing fingers at others.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:33 pm

You are alleging some great big conspiracy - but then using links to article in the official German international news service actively asking questions of the official process to back this up.

This is what a less partisan media that the USA does. This is prpower journalism.

Thamas used some great words in another thread yesterday to describe your crazy conspiracy allegations. Most sensible countries are learning as they go along, but good data and transparency is the key. And there has been no clear position that I'm aware of regarding asymptomatic testing - certainly, when community tranmission in my state had reached zero, there were many calls for asymptomatic testing, but the cost/benefit didn't stack up here.
 
Daysleeper
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:37 pm

Perhaps I missed something but what the hell are you basing any of your claims on?

Quoting the first article
“Why does Germany seem to be spared lethal cases of the new coronavirus? Early in the infection spread, Germany began to try to test and quarantine all of those who tested positive, at a time when numbers weren't overwhelming,”

And

"At the beginning, when we had relatively few cases, when it came to finding them and isolating them, we did quite well in Germany," Reinhard Busse, head of the department of health care management at the Berlin University of Technology, told the Post. "That's the major reason."

Where is the cover up?

And the other link you provided simply states that a communications error over a month ago delayed 900 people getting test results.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:13 am

So how do you explain that Germany is the only country in North-Western Europe that is not seeing a spike in Covid cases, despite schools being open, people actively rallying in close contact, many people coming back from Spain and France, etc...?

All their neighbors except Poland, are in an exponential phase.

It's not a conspiracy, it's pretty apparent that Germany is lying.
The problem is that they are so overdoing it that they can't hide it anymore.

Merkel can't fool everybody.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:42 am

Getting back to Thomas's point from the other thread - what explanations have you dismissed to come to the conclusion that there is systemic corruption of the German case data. Correlation does not equal causation, especailly across national borders with different community approaches to managing the virus.

The case numbers are quite different in neighbouring European countries. Corruption does not have to be the conclusion. Thomas has already outlined how systemic corruption across myriad sources would be required to give effect.

AFAIK, only the US has cetralised its data reporting within executive government, where the opportunity for manipulation is obvious.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:49 am

I also don't see how you can claim their curve is so out of whack compared to other countries and such...you can tell just from looking at it that there clearly has been a surge in infections and daily case counts very much elevated from where they were previously. Just because their spike hasn't been as extreme does not mean there's some grand conspiracy of them lying. They aren't the only country reporting less extreme surges...but I guess you'll just tell us they're in cahoots with the Germans and conspiring as well.

Kent350787 wrote:
AFAIK, only the US has cetralised its data reporting within executive government, where the opportunity for manipulation is obvious.

Not even in the US actually. COVID testing is still carried out and reported publicly by the individual local health departments...the administration has only had them start transmitting their numbers to the government instead of directly to the CDC. The Worldometers data actually pulls in all the local numbers and not CDC figures.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:32 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Not even in the US actually. COVID testing is still carried out and reported publicly by the individual local health departments...the administration has only had them start transmitting their numbers to the government instead of directly to the CDC. The Worldometers data actually pulls in all the local numbers and not CDC figures.


Thanks - great to know it hasn’t been Trumped quite as badly as it seems.
 
94717
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:15 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
So how do you explain that Germany is the only country in North-Western Europe that is not seeing a spike in Covid cases, despite schools being open, people actively rallying in close contact, many people coming back from Spain and France, etc...?

All their neighbors except Poland, are in an exponential phase.

It's not a conspiracy, it's pretty apparent that Germany is lying.
The problem is that they are so overdoing it that they can't hide it anymore.

Merkel can't fool everybody.


Actually not;

It has the same numbers as sweden right now.

https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?ar ... lues=cases
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:18 am

Nice conspiracy theory. To what end? To reopen the car industry? Guess what, the German government had the power to do that anyway, if it saw fit. So no point there. It is a ridiculous suggestion with absolutely no proof.

BTW hospitalizations and especially ICU patients you cannot hide from figures or the number of additional deaths. during the peak of the crisis. So I would be "impressed" by those figures if those were the same for surrounding countries per 100.000 inhabitants, but the number of COVID positives was significantly lower. Then you might have a point. Now, no.

And the number of ICU's in Germany is significantly higher compared to the Netherlands. Your hospitals took in patients from the Netherlands, France and Belgium at least. So thanks for that. Your hospitals saved lives, good European cooperation.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:29 am

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer called for HHS Secretary Alex Azar on Tuesday to resign immediately as Democrats investigate whether Trump administration appointees meddled with coronavirus reports from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

“The secretary of Health and Human Services, Alex Azar, has not only failed to push back against these outrageous moves by President Trump, he has been almost entirely silent about the chaos and mismanagement in his own agency,” Schumer said on the Senate floor. “In Trump’s administration, the most important skill is the ability to stand up to the president and resist political influence.”

Democrats in the House launched an investigation Monday into a report from Politico that said Trump political appointees have demanded the right to review and change weekly scientific reports from the CDC on the coronavirus pandemic. HHS oversees the CDC and other health agencies such as the Food and Drug Administration.


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/15/chuck-s ... ately.html

The US are lying.
Look at the way their curve was bent down, as if Covid had magically started vanishing, just before reaching the 100.000 new cases per day milestone.
I wasn't done writing that when these reports started flowing in.
Trump just can't afford the humiliaton of having failed and seeing 6 figure numbers posted.
So he made them reduce the numbers, and then said that they turned the corner, only to see Fauci contradict him.

When you have 80.000 daily cases, you can't stop this virus unless you take drastic measures.
Half-respected mask-wearing and non-distancing isn't going to bend your curve downwards.
Contact-tracing? Are you kidding me? Are you going to try to trace back the contacts of 80.000 people daily and try to call the contacts? You can't do contact tracing at this level.


Germany is in the same boat, I've been looking at the graphs daily since March, and I can spot something fishy from a mile away.
It just doesn't add up.

No one has given a plausible explanation as to what is going on there.
41 schools infected in Berlin mid-August. That went away just like that? **Poof**?
Whatever happened to the slaughterhouses, the BMW factory,

That is ridiculous.


What do you say to this:

Beer and sangria flowed in abundance in Mallorca as German tourists celebrated at the ‘Ballermann’ party strip, ignoring coronavirus hygiene rules. Now the island is drawing the consequences, and threatening with penalties. EURACTIV’s media partner Der Tagesspiegel reports.

“We are back,” chanted the German tourists who gathered at the Ballermann party strip, known as the ‘Partymeile’, on Mallorca’s Playa de Palma at the weekend.

“We want to celebrate!” shouted others as they carelessly danced the night away for hours – hand in hand and close to each other – between the tables of the bar terraces and in the streets.

“Almost nobody wore a mask, drinks were handed around and often shared”, reported the island’s German-language newspaper Mallorca Magazin, adding that social-distancing was not being respected either. Instead, beer and sangria, which is drunk together, with a straw, from big jugs or buckets in the party zone, flowed in streams.

The pictures of the exuberant partying, where all hygiene rules were ignored, caused indignation not only on Mallorca. “As if there were no Corona”, wrote the Mallorca Zeitung in horror, noting that “it seemed as if nobody here had ever heard of the pandemic.”

“We did not endure the shutdown here for weeks in order to recklessly jeopardise what we had achieved,” the newspaper noted bitterly.

The few visitors who wore masks at the party were laughed at by the masses.


https://www.euractiv.com/section/econom ... e-hotspot/



I was in Italy a few weeks ago and saw many younger German tourists ignoring mask and social distancing rules.
The locals were constantly reminding them and begging to wear masks, some were losing their patience.
It was not an isolated incident, I saw this practically every day.

You can also see this in the demo's in Berlin. No social distancing whatsoever, they are behaving recklessly.

I guess that Merkel would rather lie than face the humiliation.

Image

https://www.euractiv.com/wp-content/upl ... 00x450.jpg
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:35 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Germany fails to inform 900 people that tested positive for Covid-19
The Health Minister of the state Bavaria and the President of the Bavarian State Office for Health and Food Safety have announced that out of 85,000 Covid-19 tests around 44,000 results haven't been communicated to the tested people..


900 positives on 44k tests is just slightly higher than the reported federal average for week 34, but it is actually slightly lower (~2.05%) than the reported average positive rate in Bavaria in the SARS-CoV-2 report from August 25th, which was 2.4%. Which also was the federal average for the four weeks before.....

https://ars.rki.de/Docs/SARS_CoV2/Woche ... ericht.pdf

Dang, they even model their screw ups to fit that greatest of conspiracies....

best regards
Thomas
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:48 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
What do you say to this:

“We are back,” chanted the German tourists who gathered at the Ballermann party strip, known as the ‘Partymeile’, on Mallorca’s Playa de Palma at the weekend.


The Ballermann crowd is hardly representative for average people...... but very representative for irresponsible people. All of which got tested when they got home ....

best regards
Thomas
 
flyguy89
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:02 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The US are lying.
Look at the way their curve was bent down, as if Covid had magically started vanishing, just before reaching the 100.000 new cases per day milestone.
I wasn't done writing that when these reports started flowing in.
Trump just can't afford the humiliaton of having failed and seeing 6 figure numbers posted.
So he made them reduce the numbers, and then said that they turned the corner, only to see Fauci contradict him.

When you have 80.000 daily cases, you can't stop this virus unless you take drastic measures.
Half-respected mask-wearing and non-distancing isn't going to bend your curve downwards.

You can't hide dead bodies and overflowing hospitals, and deaths and hospitalizations are all down in the former hot spots that have driven down the curve such as Arizona, Texas, Florida, etc.

You made a prediction and were wrong. Get over it, dude.

And are you really trying to argue that the US Federal government is so inept in its COVID response, yet is somehow brilliantly covering up and manipulating COVID numbers and hospitalization data from all the disparate local agencies without anyone noticing?
 
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c933103
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:10 am

Both Germany and Japan have higher ICU availabikity than other countries
Japan also responded faster than most Western countries thanks to their geographical location and their situation is in line with other countries in the region.

Also, it is retarded to say these countries with open and free flow of information covered up their domestic coronavirus situation "like China". It is obvious that these countries had no collapse of medical system like in China Hubei else we would know it, and is just plain wrong like saying Soviet Gulag is better than American prison
 
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Number6
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:16 am

From this posters posts in the civil aviation forum, I would say they have a severe dislike, bordering in hatred of Germany. Several Lufthansa threads featured his wild claims against the airline and it’s handling of Brussels Airlines, which were often off topic. Perhaps that may explain this grand conspiracy theory.
 
94717
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:25 am

It seems like the winning concept is to let young adult get sick while locking in the older generation until the numbers go down. German authorizes has got a very balanced approach and learned things on the way.

I think that they locked down less in the spring and did not behave as "religious" about lock downs probably meant that more people now have some kind of immunity and more people adjust them self to the instructions presented by government then in other countries with much stronger lock downs.

If we can consider something strange in Germany to be compared to other countries it is probably death numbers in the spring where I consider Germany calculated more correct then let say Belgium and Sweden. In Germany a patient with Cancer that got Covid died by Cancer. In Sweden the same patient would have died by Covid perhaps: The patient died perhaps 6-8 weeks earlier then expected but if the cancer patient like it often happens died by flu or some other side effect he would have died by Cancer.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:20 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
So how do you explain that Germany is the only country in North-Western Europe that is not seeing a spike in Covid cases,


There is a spike in cases. Where I live (Saxony), the press report it every day. 400 new cases this week, in the state. Highest since April.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
despite schools being open,


We've had two close in the city in the last few days due to one pupil and a staff member testing positive.


You state Germany has a healthcare / ICU system the same as it's peers? Saxony has more critical care beds and ventitators than the entire UK. One state!!

Local hospitals here in May and June were taking in critial Italian patients with Covid because of excess capacity.


The Mayor of the city wrote to all residents in April this year and told everyone what to do if they felt sick. Everyone knows the process.
If you need or want a test you get one. There is no delay, no shortage.

PPE was a bit difficult for a few weeks in local hospitals in April / May, but it's been fine since.


At work we were all sent home in April. Many people have never gone back but most go into the office 2-4 days per week now. You can only meet in small groups and the office has hand sanitiser on the walls, free masks etc.


I know over 100 people that I work with. The average family size is 3 people. None of these people know anyone that has had Covid, or any symptoms remotely close to it.


This is one part of Germany. For sure Bavaria and areas to the West were hit badly but the east of Germany generally got away very lightly.
I see no evidence of a coverup or falsifying reporting.
 
agill
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:43 am

olle wrote:
It seems like the winning concept is to let young adult get sick while locking in the older generation until the numbers go down. German authorizes has got a very balanced approach and learned things on the way.

I think that they locked down less in the spring and did not behave as "religious" about lock downs probably meant that more people now have some kind of immunity and more people adjust them self to the instructions presented by government then in other countries with much stronger lock downs.

If we can consider something strange in Germany to be compared to other countries it is probably death numbers in the spring where I consider Germany calculated more correct then let say Belgium and Sweden. In Germany a patient with Cancer that got Covid died by Cancer. In Sweden the same patient would have died by Covid perhaps: The patient died perhaps 6-8 weeks earlier then expected but if the cancer patient like it often happens died by flu or some other side effect he would have died by Cancer.


Well in Sweden if you'd die from anything (like a car accident) within 30 days of a positive test you'd get included in the statistic for covid dead.
 
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lugie
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:32 am

c933103 wrote:
Both Germany and Japan have higher ICU availabikity than other countries
Japan also responded faster than most Western countries thanks to their geographical location and their situation is in line with other countries in the region.


I think another factor that immensely helped Japan (and South Korea) is the fact that mask wearing is already a very common part of the culture - they didn't have militiamen storm state houses with ARs (like in the US) or 35,000 idiots led by outright neo-nazis march through the capital (like in Germany) or enraged guys beat a bus driver brain dead (like in France) all motivated by intense whining about how wearing masks is "literally fascism".
 
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c933103
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:52 am

lugie wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Both Germany and Japan have higher ICU availabikity than other countries
Japan also responded faster than most Western countries thanks to their geographical location and their situation is in line with other countries in the region.


I think another factor that immensely helped Japan (and South Korea) is the fact that mask wearing is already a very common part of the culture - they didn't have militiamen storm state houses with ARs (like in the US) or 35,000 idiots led by outright neo-nazis march through the capital (like in Germany) or enraged guys beat a bus driver brain dead (like in France) all motivated by intense whining about how wearing masks is "literally fascism".

The amount of such people in Japan isn't exactly zero, although it's indeed minimal
https://japantoday.com/category/nationa ... r-festival
 
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lugie
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:59 am

c933103 wrote:
The amount of such people in Japan isn't exactly zero, although it's indeed minimal
https://japantoday.com/category/nationa ... r-festival



Welp, I guess I should have expected that. If these last years have taught me anything it's that anti-science conspiracy morons thrive everywhere.


I'm just still unsure whether I should take that as a positive (as in, good to know it's not just us) or negative (as in, holy sh*t there's so many of them) thing :lol:
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:41 pm

You guys don't know what you're talking about. I'm totally appalled by the naive trust in government.

Japan has gone through a disaster, hundreds of thousands of elderly have died of Covid and are still dying.
The reason why they're not talking about it, is because Japan has a no-testing policy and all these elderly deaths are being cleared with alternative causes of deaths.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/20 ... 9-numbers/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52466834
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/ ... 9-testing/

Japan was even claimed to be successful.

https://time.com/5842139/japan-beat-cor ... lockdowns/


The reality is that Japan is very corrupt.
Japanese doctors and nurses have been threatened that they would lose their jobs and never find another one if they spoke up or posted anything on social media. But some of them did anonymously on online boards.
Japanese media are also very close to the government and were told to not report excessively.

Japanese doctors forced the Japanese government to declare the emergency as it was reluctant to do so.


Critical reporting:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/is-ja ... -a-success
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:23 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
You guys don't know what you're talking about. I'm totally appalled by the naive trust in government.


Does that go for me too who just explained to you what it's actually been like, by someone who lives in Germany? Because if you think that's the case you don't know this country at all.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:56 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
You guys don't know what you're talking about. I'm totally appalled by the naive trust in government


glad that we don´t have that, and rely on independent sources like the KIT Project.... while you are yet to explain how all those private entities are not just keeping quiet, but also fiddle numbers exactly according to that grand conspiracy theme ...

best regards
Thomas
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:17 pm

Wow, Waterbomber2, just wow…

I cannot explain why Germany is not seeing a spike in Covid cases, not yet, if I may add. I am a little bit concerned about autumn...

One explanation, although a very daring explanation, might be that Germans in general love to stick to rules. The picture you showed above is a minority. The typical German loves rules, e.g. putting a towel on a deck chair at 5am in order to block it … ;-) … just kidding and trying to illustrate my point. A better example might be what happens if you do not stick to the rules in traffic. Other traffic members might kill you for not obeying to the rules.... The majority actually sticks to the COVID-rules. This might be an explanation but I cannot prove it (in the same way that you cannot prove your wild conspiracy theory…)
 
Daysleeper
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:53 pm

Do you think we all may just be feeding a troll at this point?

There have been multiple well-reasoned responses already and the poster goes off on another wild tangent.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:16 pm

What is it with people and conspiracy theories today? Go online and it’s a plague of epic proportions. You can’t even do a search without wading through miles of misinformation and anti-science bs.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:07 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
What is it with people and conspiracy theories today? Go online and it’s a plague of epic proportions. You can’t even do a search without wading through miles of misinformation and anti-science bs.

Yapp, it’s frustrating. People use this thing called internet in a positive way, e.g. to educate themselves, to share positive experiences (... such as great aircraft pictures...), you can almost become a rocket scientist when using the internet. But at the same time people are using the internet to spread lies, hate and conspiracy theories. Right now, it feels as if we are living in the mediaeval times of the internet age. Let’s hope the Age of Enlightenment will follow soon, so to speak.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:18 pm

This is not a conspiracy theory, the evidence is staggering.
If you can't see that there is a problem in the huge divergence that is occurring in the graphs, you must have cognitive issues.

The graphs of neighboring countries are in an exponential phase y= x^a
The German graph is not even a function graph y = ax; the graph is a bloody constant y = a.

Do you realise how impossible that is?


A few days ago, I said that the US numbers can't be right, and now suddenly a committee of the House is investigating it.

A few days ago, I started a thread about vaccines not being a silver bullet, and the chief of CDC is now saying that even masks protect better.
In that thread I also stated that the vaccine is a moving target, and there too, sure enough the CDC already moved the target to mid-2021 from "end of 2020-early 2021".

Now I'm stating that Germany is hiding the true extent of Covid infections, so you can take note or for lack of better arguments, keep trying to lower my credibility, but I'm pretty sure that I'm 100% right.
I'm willing to revise my stance if there is evidence that Germany is doing something right, but so far, it's quite the opposite with large protests happening in Berlin, people ignoring mask mandates, among other factors.


For those who defend the German numbers, please explain to me why Germany that is a vastly larger and more populous country, is only reporting about the same number of new infections as their neighbor The Netherlands, despite testing more per capita?

I also predict that we will see the German graph pitch slightly up in the coming days while their neighbors are taking the vertical rocket until the political reluctance for lock down makes room for panic. I expect lock downs in about 2 weeks in France, Spain, Portugal, with Belgium and Denmark to follow in 3 weeks.
Germany is probably intent on not pursuing a lock down, switching to a Swedish strategy, motivating this erratic reporting.

Thousands of Germans are about to die in the name of keeping the economy open.
I don't think that this is something to joke about or to dismiss lightly.
Please keep the thread clean of embarassing and childish trolling and feel free to start your own thread "Germany is telling the truth about covid".
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:25 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
A few days ago, I said that the US numbers can't be right, and now suddenly a committee of the House is investigating it.

How can the government investigate it if the government is the one conspiring and lying about the COVID numbers?

:stirthepot:
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2170
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:42 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Please keep the thread clean of embarassing and childish trolling and feel free to start your own thread "Germany is telling the truth about covid".


The challenge is that your claim is so outrageous, the assumption was that you were engaging in said action. You are not a victim.

Several PPs have systematically engaged to show how unlikely you conclusions regarding fraud are.

You are simply reverting back to "but the graphs". The ball is in your court to justify your conclusion.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1469
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:07 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
A few days ago, I said that the US numbers can't be right, and now suddenly a committee of the House is investigating it.

How can the government investigate it if the government is the one conspiring and lying about the COVID numbers?

:stirthepot:


The House is not the government and they have quite opposing views with Republicans in government and a Democrat majority in the House.


Kent350787 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Please keep the thread clean of embarassing and childish trolling and feel free to start your own thread "Germany is telling the truth about covid".


The challenge is that your claim is so outrageous, the assumption was that you were engaging in said action. You are not a victim.

Several PPs have systematically engaged to show how unlikely you conclusions regarding fraud are.

You are simply reverting back to "but the graphs". The ball is in your court to justify your conclusion.


The arguments I've seen so far have been based on credibility of Germany vs. my credibility (as irrational as that is) and anecdotal evidence.
My personal anecdotal evidence already counters their anecdotal evidence.

All we have is the graphs showing an unlikely scenario and clear motivation to avoid a lock down at all cost.
Altmaier said Germany "can and will" avoid lockdowns like Germans lived through in March and April. Germany 'can and will' avoid second coronavirus lockdown as economy rebounds
https://www.thelocal.de/20200901/german ... n-minister

That's all we need for now.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1891
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:28 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:


The arguments I've seen so far have been based on credibility of Germany vs. my credibility (as irrational as that is) and anecdotal evidence.
My personal anecdotal evidence already counters their anecdotal evidence.


Oh boy. Credibility is built on reputation. So we have here the credibility of the German Government vs....you saying they're lying. Tough call there.

Where's that spyhunter guy? He'd be all over this
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14741
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:57 am

FGITD wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:


The arguments I've seen so far have been based on credibility of Germany vs. my credibility (as irrational as that is) and anecdotal evidence.
My personal anecdotal evidence already counters their anecdotal evidence.


Oh boy. Credibility is built on reputation. So we have here the credibility of the German Government vs....you saying they're lying.


whilst all the while ignoring any questions, mostly regarding the fact that there isn´t one person that is the German government, but:

1) 401 fairly independent operating public health departments, none of which operates under federal government control.
2) That most of those public health departments employees are "Beamten" and not just essentially can´t be fired, but can´t even be ordered to do anything that isn´t specifically laid out in a law or regulation, both of which are public to be valid.They can be fired, with loss of pension, for anything they do that isn´t in law or regulations though..
3) That 60k primary physicians with about a quarter million employees don´t seem to notice being overrun by corona patients.
4) That 2000 hospitals with hundreds of thousands employees don´t notice either. No nurse blowing the whistle on TikTok.....
5) That plenty of those have, via local news media, announced they closed down their corona isolation stations due to lack of corona patients.
6) That excess death numbers, often calculated by foreign media, are smack on the money with the official numbers.
7) There are ~32.000 graveyards, none of which reports being busy, neither do undertakers, crematoria, or coffin makers
8) That "official numbers" aren´t the only numbers we have access too, and both news media and scientific projects use their own sources. And don´t notice fiddling with the numbers.
9) That over 200 labs either fake invoices for testing, or 100+ Health insurances don´t notice they pay far fewer tests than are reported.

And to make sure that those, probably a million+ people total, don´t spill their beans the German government made sure that, by law, truthful handling of everything Corona related is recommended, because its up to 5 years in prison to screw around with Corona......

Waterbomber2 wrote:
All we have is the graphs showing an unlikely scenario


you do notice no one agrees with you on that one, right? And btw, you still haven´t told us what other options you have explored and dismissed for which reason..... in the other thread you made it sound like you wanted to start this new thread specifically to discuss that..... and yet... nothing. Its almost like you just wanted to avoid that discussion.....

and clear motivation to avoid a lock down at all cost.
Altmaier said Germany "can and will" avoid lockdowns like Germans lived through in March and April. Germany 'can and will' avoid second coronavirus lockdown as economy rebounds
https://www.thelocal.de/20200901/german ... n-minister

That's all we need for now.


So they are saying what they said before the first lock down? What a shocker....

And if you had bothered to figure out what else he said, after all that clickbait news site is only repeating an AFP tit-bit, in your frantic search for anything to further your conspiracy theory, whilst ignoring everything speaking so clearly against it, you could have learned what kind of actionable items he has in mind to avoid a total shutdown, amongst other things by quickly shutting down infection hot-spots. You know, what Germany is actually doing, shutting schools down again over single cases ... which in your mind of course means they fake the numbers. Because you obviously must have more sick people when you quick shut down places with transmission risks. Its not like that could explain the rather low numbers or anything......

best regards
Thomas
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:57 am

agill wrote:
olle wrote:
It seems like the winning concept is to let young adult get sick while locking in the older generation until the numbers go down. German authorizes has got a very balanced approach and learned things on the way.

I think that they locked down less in the spring and did not behave as "religious" about lock downs probably meant that more people now have some kind of immunity and more people adjust them self to the instructions presented by government then in other countries with much stronger lock downs.

If we can consider something strange in Germany to be compared to other countries it is probably death numbers in the spring where I consider Germany calculated more correct then let say Belgium and Sweden. In Germany a patient with Cancer that got Covid died by Cancer. In Sweden the same patient would have died by Covid perhaps: The patient died perhaps 6-8 weeks earlier then expected but if the cancer patient like it often happens died by flu or some other side effect he would have died by Cancer.


Well in Sweden if you'd die from anything (like a car accident) within 30 days of a positive test you'd get included in the statistic for covid dead.


That is the problem with comparing numbers... Car accident, heart attack what ever... I do not know how many lower cases Sweden would have got if the German model was used but in order to be used to compare methods etc we shall base numbers on the same methods.
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:03 am

tommy1808 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:


The arguments I've seen so far have been based on credibility of Germany vs. my credibility (as irrational as that is) and anecdotal evidence.
My personal anecdotal evidence already counters their anecdotal evidence.


Oh boy. Credibility is built on reputation. So we have here the credibility of the German Government vs....you saying they're lying.


whilst all the while ignoring any questions, mostly regarding the fact that there isn´t one person that is the German government, but:

1) 401 fairly independent operating public health departments, none of which operates under federal government control.
2) That most of those public health departments employees are "Beamten" and not just essentially can´t be fired, but can´t even be ordered to do anything that isn´t specifically laid out in a law or regulation, both of which are public to be valid.They can be fired, with loss of pension, for anything they do that isn´t in law or regulations though..
3) That 60k primary physicians with about a quarter million employees don´t seem to notice being overrun by corona patients.
4) That 2000 hospitals with hundreds of thousands employees don´t notice either. No nurse blowing the whistle on TikTok.....
5) That plenty of those have, via local news media, announced they closed down their corona isolation stations due to lack of corona patients.
6) That excess death numbers, often calculated by foreign media, are smack on the money with the official numbers.
7) There are ~32.000 graveyards, none of which reports being busy, neither do undertakers, crematoria, or coffin makers
8) That "official numbers" aren´t the only numbers we have access too, and both news media and scientific projects use their own sources. And don´t notice fiddling with the numbers.
9) That over 200 labs either fake invoices for testing, or 100+ Health insurances don´t notice they pay far fewer tests than are reported.

And to make sure that those, probably a million+ people total, don´t spill their beans the German government made sure that, by law, truthful handling of everything Corona related is recommended, because its up to 5 years in prison to screw around with Corona......

Waterbomber2 wrote:
All we have is the graphs showing an unlikely scenario


you do notice no one agrees with you on that one, right? And btw, you still haven´t told us what other options you have explored and dismissed for which reason..... in the other thread you made it sound like you wanted to start this new thread specifically to discuss that..... and yet... nothing. Its almost like you just wanted to avoid that discussion.....

and clear motivation to avoid a lock down at all cost.
Altmaier said Germany "can and will" avoid lockdowns like Germans lived through in March and April. Germany 'can and will' avoid second coronavirus lockdown as economy rebounds
https://www.thelocal.de/20200901/german ... n-minister

That's all we need for now.


So they are saying what they said before the first lock down? What a shocker....

And if you had bothered to figure out what else he said, after all that clickbait news site is only repeating an AFP tit-bit, in your frantic search for anything to further your conspiracy theory, whilst ignoring everything speaking so clearly against it, you could have learned what kind of actionable items he has in mind to avoid a total shutdown, amongst other things by quickly shutting down infection hot-spots. You know, what Germany is actually doing, shutting schools down again over single cases ... which in your mind of course means they fake the numbers. Because you obviously must have more sick people when you quick shut down places with transmission risks. Its not like that could explain the rather low numbers or anything......

best regards
Thomas


I consider that German numbers can be trusted. No Diesel gate here... Special comparing with excess death.

Also it seems like excess death and Covid is not connected so much any more. So shall we be so concerned any more? I read somewhere that there seems to be a connection with strong outbreaks in flu the last few seasons and low corona death... Perhaps it is so simple that there was less candidates of weak and very sick people that could be serious sick in some countries and more in other?

RIght now there is not to much increase in death even in Spain that have a explosion in cases. Why is this?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14741
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:16 am

olle wrote:
RIght now there is not to much increase in death even in Spain that have a explosion in cases. Why is this?


better testing and tracking, more asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic people get tested, rate drops to real lethality/gets closer to it. Mask requirements reducing initial expose, giving the immune system more time to spool up to beat the virus before it becomes a problem after exposure.

best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4277
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:27 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
so far, it's quite the opposite with large protests happening in Berlin, people ignoring mask mandates, among other factors..

You see, this is one of the mistakes of your theory. You are taking these pictures*) and generalize them. It's simply wrong to say people ignore mask mandates. I haven't seen a single person not wearing the mask in the supermarket, gas station, train station etc. since months...

*) someone said Corona should be called the disease of stupidity. I think that's a perfect description ... and of course there a lot of stupid people in Germany, like everywhere:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCaTX7gd32E
 
User avatar
Lilienthal
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:01 am

Don’t feed the troll, people...
 
Sokes
Posts: 2773
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:08 am

N14AZ wrote:
... The typical German loves rules, e.g. putting a towel on a deck chair at 5am in order to block it … ;-)

I think you got the main point.

To add a few personal hypotheses:
-I have a feeling elevators are extreme bad. The worst affected cities worldwide have high rise buildings. Germany has a lot of population in medium seized cities. Even in big cities buildings with elevators are rare. Because of fire police restrictions buildings mostly don't exceed four floors.

-I believe it depends extreme on the environment, probably sunshine and humidity. I was in the Indian lockdown in Goa. The lockdown was strongly enforced, but my neighbour went to visit neighbours. One day a small truck with vegetables came when vegetables were in short supply. It was quite undisciplined and social distancing wasn't followed. I said to myself this virus won't get controlled. I was wrong. Goa had seven active cases which went down to zero and stayed there for a while until Goa borders were opened for Corona tourism from Bombay. In the few weeks were cases were zero there were at least vegetable trucks passing the border. It was a time of strong sunshine.
So I assume social isolation during rainy days is obligatory, otherwise not so much. Social life in the open is to be strongly preferred. Needless to say I refer to social life with masks.

-My parents in Germany, both around 80, go to restaurants. But they will only go if weather is good so that they can sit outside. They don't keep any social contact beside with my brother, that also mostly outside. Shopping is done by my brother.
They are very disciplined.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1630
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:14 am

Number6 wrote:
From this posters posts in the civil aviation forum, I would say they have a severe dislike, bordering in hatred of Germany. Several Lufthansa threads featured his wild claims against the airline and it’s handling of Brussels Airlines, which were often off topic. Perhaps that may explain this grand conspiracy theory.


:checkmark:

Herr Waterbomber2 has definately some issues.....
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4329
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:50 am

    Waterbomber2 wrote:
    The arguments I've seen so far have been based on credibility of Germany vs. my credibility


    I've heard the phrase "a swing and a miss" but for the first time I have seen "a swing and a punch yourself in the face", this thread is brilliant!

    Occam's Razor, Germany looks like they have done well at corona virus because they have done well at corona virus.

    Fred
     
    Waterbomber2
    Topic Author
    Posts: 1469
    Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

    Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

    Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:20 pm

    The World Health Organization (WHO) has warned that a “very serious situation” is unfolding in Europe, as "alarming rates of transmission" of the coronavirus surge across the continent.


    https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news ... 5a78776643

    Of course, everywhere in Europe except in Germany and Sweden, where money comes before lives.
     
    GDB
    Posts: 14487
    Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

    Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

    Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:31 pm

    flipdewaf wrote:
      Waterbomber2 wrote:
      The arguments I've seen so far have been based on credibility of Germany vs. my credibility


      I've heard the phrase "a swing and a miss" but for the first time I have seen "a swing and a punch yourself in the face", this thread is brilliant!

      Occam's Razor, Germany looks like they have done well at corona virus because they have done well at corona virus.

      Fred


      And that stands in contrast to his own nation and state, his boy in the WH by default too.
      That is what all this endless BS he posts is really all about.

      Citizenjustin notes how sad it is that the internet is such a place of hate and lies as much as real knowledge but it was always going to be this way.
      I recall a documentary about this new 'thing' called the internet in the mid 90's, one of the first groups to use it? US based neo Nazis Stormfront (some of Trump's 'very fine people'), it even showed a slow dial-up swastika appearing on a screen, who in turn put one of the first books on-line, The Turner Dairies, the inspiration for one Tim McVeigh.
       
      User avatar
      Francoflier
      Posts: 6022
      Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

      Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

      Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:35 pm

      lol. Hasn't this thread been locked yet?

      At least crackpot conspiracy theories always make for entertaining reading.
       
      User avatar
      lugie
      Posts: 937
      Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:11 pm

      Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

      Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:58 pm

      GDB wrote:
      flipdewaf wrote:
        Waterbomber2 wrote:
        The arguments I've seen so far have been based on credibility of Germany vs. my credibility


        I've heard the phrase "a swing and a miss" but for the first time I have seen "a swing and a punch yourself in the face", this thread is brilliant!

        Occam's Razor, Germany looks like they have done well at corona virus because they have done well at corona virus.

        Fred


        And that stands in contrast to his own nation and state, his boy in the WH by default too.
        That is what all this endless BS he posts is really all about.



        I don't think he(?) is a Trump fan, he has accused the US of manipulating COVID numbers too.
        (which btw I consider much less unlikely and there is at least circumstantial evidence for it, such as the fact that the the beginning of a descending trajectory of reported daily new infections, to date around 30% below the July peak, coincides with Trump amending the reporting requirements to circumvent the CDC. Still no perfect smoking gun but much easier to argue a point there than just "can't believe the Germans")

        He has been lashing out against just about every country with decreasing or stable new infection numbers and I'm really not sure what the deal with that is.

        Frustrated that his own country isn't getting a grip on new infections?
        Cheerleading the destruction of entire societies, like an accelerationist?

        We may never find out but it's kind of disturbing.
         
        StarAC17
        Posts: 4286
        Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

        Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

        Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:12 pm

        flipdewaf wrote:
          Waterbomber2 wrote:
          The arguments I've seen so far have been based on credibility of Germany vs. my credibility


          I've heard the phrase "a swing and a miss" but for the first time I have seen "a swing and a punch yourself in the face", this thread is brilliant!

          Occam's Razor, Germany looks like they have done well at corona virus because they have done well at corona virus.

          Fred


          I'll take probably the most competent western nation for $1000 Alex.
           
          Waterbomber2
          Topic Author
          Posts: 1469
          Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

          Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

          Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:37 pm

          You guys are evidence that government PR can fool the masses.

          In the meanwhile, reports of Coronaparties across Germany, German youth coming back from Portugal and Spain infected, etc...


          Berlin protest against coronavirus measures draws 20,000


          https://www.thelocal.de/20200802/berlin ... -thousands


          Germans flout virus rules at 'crazy and wild' U-Bahn parties
          Footage shared on social media of people partying in packed subway train carriages


          https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... n-parties/

          Private parties have been blamed for fueling a rise in COVID-19 cases across Germany. While some states are calling for federal restrictions on such gatherings, those with lower rates of infection disagree.


          https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-germa ... a-54667706
           
          GDB
          Posts: 14487
          Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

          Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

          Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:08 pm

          Waterbomber2 wrote:
          You guys are evidence that government PR can fool the masses.

          In the meanwhile, reports of Coronaparties across Germany, German youth coming back from Portugal and Spain infected, etc...


          Berlin protest against coronavirus measures draws 20,000


          https://www.thelocal.de/20200802/berlin ... -thousands


          Germans flout virus rules at 'crazy and wild' U-Bahn parties
          Footage shared on social media of people partying in packed subway train carriages


          https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... n-parties/

          Private parties have been blamed for fueling a rise in COVID-19 cases across Germany. While some states are calling for federal restrictions on such gatherings, those with lower rates of infection disagree.


          https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-germa ... a-54667706


          Exceptions, not the rule, idiots everywhere, Germany does not have them in power however. 20,000 (some say 30-35,000) out of a population of some 80 million.
          So oh wise one, you are above the mere masses in not being fooled, above experts in the field, above those on this site who actually live in that country that so vexes you on so many levels?
          No, just your obsession.
           
          Reinhardt
          Posts: 480
          Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

          Re: Germany lying about Covid numbers?

          Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:12 pm

          GDB wrote:

          Exceptions, not the rule, idiots everywhere, Germany does not have them in power however. 20,000 (some say 30-35,000) out of a population of some 80 million.
          So oh wise one, you are above the mere masses in not being fooled, above experts in the field, above those on this site who actually live in that country that so vexes you on so many levels?
          No, just your obsession.


          Indeed.

          If you really want to go, have at the UK the US Govenments. Monumental clusterfu**s in both cases with real concerns there will be massive problems come winter.

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