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Elkadad313
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Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:37 pm

From the article: 'Defund the police' activist actress Alyssa Milano called 911 when she believed an armed gunman was on her Bell Canyon property in California on Sunday morning. At least seven Ventura County Sheriffs' vehicles, one K-9 unit, a police helicopter and one Los Angeles Fire Department team responded.

IMO, the 911 dispatcher should have said, ‘We are understaffed right now, but can fit you in sometime this evening.’

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... g-911.html
 
N583JB
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:39 pm

Her neighbor said it perfectly-

"One neighbor says, 'She can tweet those things because at the end of the day she lives behind gates in a gated community. She knows the police will come to save her. But what about all those people who don't have that luxury and live in unsafe neighborhoods? She obviously doesn't care. "

Probably the reason that 80 percent of Black Americans are against a reduced police presence in their neighborhoods. But, the white people from the suburbs know what is best for those black folks. How arrogant.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:02 pm

Anti-police rhetoric is a vanity thing for privileged people.

It's actually an anti-blue collar, anti-working class issue for the rich. They love doing that to coal miners, factory workers, cops, Wal-Mart workers etc. It's a cheap way to get clout and pretend to be woke and relevant. When in reality, withdrawal of cop protection hurts... everybody in society except the super rich.
 
N867DA
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:03 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Anti-police rhetoric is a vanity thing for privileged people.

It's actually an anti-blue collar, anti-working class issue for the rich. They love doing that to coal miners, factory workers, cops, Wal-Mart workers etc. It's a cheap way to get clout and pretend to be woke and relevant. When in reality, withdrawal of cop protection hurts... everybody in society except the super rich.


Anti-police rhetoric has its roots in addressing systemic racism and how it impacts outcomes in the legal system—which includes people of all political stripes. But people of all political persuasion can also be victims of crime, even if they accept flaws in our system.

That some people acknowledge that and others don’t, and that it dovetails nicely with political inclination speaks for itself.

It’s comical to even imply the pro-worker party is the GOP. They give pennies to workers and extort dollars back.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
Palop
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:19 pm

In danger of stepping into a hornet’s nest here, the call to defund the police (as opposed to abolish the police) was a call to take away functions from the police that frankly they shouldn’t have in the first place. Done properly, defunding the police should be a positive thing for the police as well, since they don’t have to deal with things they’re not trained and equipped for. Mental health, drug counseling, family therapy etc. are all things police has to deal with now, but should be transferred away from the police with the appropriate cut in budget. Done properly, defunding would clarify the role of the police and actually make their job easier.
For any person who is in this camp when calling for defunding the police, then there is no hypocrisy when calling 911 for an intruder as this is the actual job for the police. For people who call for the abolishing of the police (which i don’t think many actually do) then calling 911 is quite hypocritical.
 
winginit
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:58 pm

Palop wrote:
In danger of stepping into a hornet’s nest here, the call to defund the police (as opposed to abolish the police) was a call to take away functions from the police that frankly they shouldn’t have in the first place. Done properly, defunding the police should be a positive thing for the police as well, since they don’t have to deal with things they’re not trained and equipped for. Mental health, drug counseling, family therapy etc. are all things police has to deal with now, but should be transferred away from the police with the appropriate cut in budget. Done properly, defunding would clarify the role of the police and actually make their job easier.
For any person who is in this camp when calling for defunding the police, then there is no hypocrisy when calling 911 for an intruder as this is the actual job for the police. For people who call for the abolishing of the police (which i don’t think many actually do) then calling 911 is quite hypocritical.


Spot on. There is an unbiased and comprehensive explanation into the topic on this podcast.
 
Elkadad313
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:09 am

Palop wrote:
In danger of stepping into a hornet’s nest here, the call to defund the police (as opposed to abolish the police) was a call to take away functions from the police that frankly they shouldn’t have in the first place. Done properly, defunding the police should be a positive thing for the police as well, since they don’t have to deal with things they’re not trained and equipped for. Mental health, drug counseling, family therapy etc. are all things police has to deal with now, but should be transferred away from the police with the appropriate cut in budget. Done properly, defunding would clarify the role of the police and actually make their job easier.
For any person who is in this camp when calling for defunding the police, then there is no hypocrisy when calling 911 for an intruder as this is the actual job for the police. For people who call for the abolishing of the police (which I don’t think many actually do) then calling 911 is quite hypocritical.

Right. So when funds for mental health, drug counseling, family therapy, etc. are diverted from police budgets, what will occur when police are sent to a call about a disruptive person, a person waiving a gun at a store, etc? Are police expected to do an assessment while their lives may be in jeopardy? Or think 'this guy is a nut job, we will call for a counselor and go on to our next call? Or wait for the counselor to arrive, tying up even more resources? And what if the person shoots someone while awaiting such arrival. Do a ride along with police in a larger city and then tell me how you would make this work.

The police are far from perfect, but taxpayers are not willing or able to fund a police department staffed by FBI-grade officers. (and there would still be mistakes made) It's called the real world.

BTW, a recent poll showed 81% of black Americans don't support defunding, and many want even more police presence in their communities.
https://reason.com/2020/08/06/81-percen ... ce-gallup/
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:30 am

Hmm, I've seen none of the defund the police crowd elaborate on what they actually mean. Just a bunch of screaming and emotional language.
 
NYCVIE
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:41 am

Palop wrote:
In danger of stepping into a hornet’s nest here, the call to defund the police (as opposed to abolish the police) was a call to take away functions from the police that frankly they shouldn’t have in the first place. Done properly, defunding the police should be a positive thing for the police as well, since they don’t have to deal with things they’re not trained and equipped for. Mental health, drug counseling, family therapy etc. are all things police has to deal with now, but should be transferred away from the police with the appropriate cut in budget. Done properly, defunding would clarify the role of the police and actually make their job easier.
For any person who is in this camp when calling for defunding the police, then there is no hypocrisy when calling 911 for an intruder as this is the actual job for the police. For people who call for the abolishing of the police (which i don’t think many actually do) then calling 911 is quite hypocritical.


Right on.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Hmm, I've seen none of the defund the police crowd elaborate on what they actually mean. Just a bunch of screaming and emotional language.

Elkadad313 wrote:
Right. So when funds for mental health, drug counseling, family therapy, etc. are diverted from police budgets, what will occur when police are sent to a call about a disruptive person, a person waiving a gun at a store, etc? Are police expected to do an assessment while their lives may be in jeopardy? Or think 'this guy is a nut job, we will call for a counselor and go on to our next call? Or wait for the counselor to arrive, tying up even more resources? And what if the person shoots someone while awaiting such arrival. Do a ride along with police in a larger city and then tell me how you would make this work.

The police are far from perfect, but taxpayers are not willing or able to fund a police department staffed by FBI-grade officers. (and there would still be mistakes made) It's called the real world.

BTW, a recent poll showed 81% of black Americans don't support defunding, and many want even more police presence in their communities.
https://reason.com/2020/08/06/81-percen ... ce-gallup/


I don't know how to quote replies from other threads, but here's a copy/paste of a response I posted in another thread on this issue (it's kind of long but would appreciate a read and response) -

First of all, I'm from a low-income community in New York City and I personally am in support of defunding the police - here's why. Defunding the police is about recognizing that the current system of policing in the United States isn't working for us. It's about realizing that predatory policing doesn't actually help build or sustain healthy and safe communities. Growing up in NYC while Stop and Frisk was an NYPD initiative was a nightmare because it genuinely instilled fear amongst the average person of color whenever they saw police officers because of the very real possibility of being targeted for no reason other than looking suspicious. I went to private school and I know many of my classmates who were stopped and frisked (in suit & tie uniform) on their way to/from school for no reason. That's not right and it's not sustainable, not to mention that Stop and Frisk was a failure in terms of yielding actual results.

Defunding the police is saying that perhaps we should redeploy finances to other community based methods of caring for and sustaining a community. Contrary to the rhetoric of the right, that doesn't mean calling a social worker to the scene of a murder instead of the police, but it just doesn't make sense that the police have the broad responsibilities they have without specialized training. I mean, the average person in a corporate job or in the medical profession goes through far more training/school than a police officer and even then is only qualified for a specific set of specialties. The same law enforcement officer shouldn't be tasked with responding to a mental health crisis, a drug episode, a break-in, a domestic abuse situation, a murder, a robbery, a rape, etc.

This is how you quickly get situations where police officers aren't adequately equipped to respond to particular episodes and out of fear invoke violence. If more money was allocated to professionals and local groups/departments who are specialized in these things you would have far less violence in de-escalating these situations and you would reduce tension between law enforcement and the average citizen. Law enforcement is not supposed to be something people fear and there honestly should be stress taken off police officers to respond to situations where they're in over their heads for lack of a better term. There have been numerous attempts to reform police departments from within with things such as body cameras, but as we've seen, in many cases they conveniently happen to not be on. Even look at that viral video from months ago in Buffalo where an elderly man was aggressively pushed by Buffalo police officer to the floor and started bleeding from his head as the other officers walked right past. The next day two officers were suspended followed by all the remaining officers on the team resigning from the unit out of either solidarity or fear of being held accountable. That's an ingrained mentality.

As for the popularity of defunding the police I think it's important to understand that proponents of this aren't expecting this to happen tomorrow. As a mainstream idea, defunding the police is extremely new - I mean, we've been dealing with Coronavirus for longer. As such it's not surprising that the support isn't there...yet. When people first hear of defunding the police it sounds like a radical, extreme idea because we've all grown up and lived in the system we have. You could ask any toddler and they'd know what a police officer is. So to suggest such a shift in an established institution like the police is a big ask for many people and it's going to take time, conversation, and debate to build awareness and support. But people are currently laying the foundation to continue this conversation. There are a lot of major shifts that have happened in the US that if you would have asked people from the jump they wouldn't have supported. Civil rights is an example. I think government funded healthcare is another - as time has passed and more people are understanding what that might look like, support for it has significantly grown.
 
N583JB
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:45 am

NYCVIE wrote:

As for the popularity of defunding the police I think it's important to understand that proponents of this aren't expecting this to happen tomorrow. As a mainstream idea, defunding the police is extremely new - I mean, we've been dealing with Coronavirus for longer. As such it's not surprising that the support isn't there...yet. When people first hear of defunding the police it sounds like a radical, extreme idea because we've all grown up and lived in the system we have. You could ask any toddler and they'd know what a police officer is. So to suggest such a shift in an established institution like the police is a big ask for many people and it's going to take time, conversation, and debate to build awareness and support. But people are currently laying the foundation to continue this conversation. There are a lot of major shifts that have happened in the US that if you would have asked people from the jump they wouldn't have supported. Civil rights is an example. I think government funded healthcare is another - as time has passed and more people are understanding what that might look like, support for it has significantly grown.


Given that the cities that have dabbled in "defunding" the police are experiencing massive spikes in violent crime, I don't think that the "defund" movement will gain any popularity. In fact, I think it reached its peak in June and has predictably plummeted as people have realized that less officers on the street means more crime, more violent crime, and less protection for those who need it. Perhaps that is why 80%+ of Black Americans don't want fewer police officers in their neighborhoods. Leave it to the suburban white crowd to advocate for policies that put black people at risk.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 am

Palop wrote:
the call to defund the police (as opposed to abolish the police) was a call to take away functions from the police that frankly they shouldn’t have in the first place.

If you have to explain what "Defund the police" means, then you have a losing argument, and I've told this to many folks in my feed who continue to put it out. The term "Reform the police" will do all that without the connotation of a reduced budget, which is what many will think of when they hear it. By enacting reforms, you take away functions that were never meant to land into the police force; you reallocate funds to other agencies or services; you enact rules and regulations for officers when they do their job (such as having a body cam active at all time, and any time in which the view is obstructed or the camera is off, the officer is liable for actions that are not in self defense)...you don't get that with "defund".
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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casinterest
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:30 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Palop wrote:
the call to defund the police (as opposed to abolish the police) was a call to take away functions from the police that frankly they shouldn’t have in the first place.

If you have to explain what "Defund the police" means, then you have a losing argument, and I've told this to many folks in my feed who continue to put it out. The term "Reform the police" will do all that without the connotation of a reduced budget, which is what many will think of when they hear it. By enacting reforms, you take away functions that were never meant to land into the police force; you reallocate funds to other agencies or services; you enact rules and regulations for officers when they do their job (such as having a body cam active at all time, and any time in which the view is obstructed or the camera is off, the officer is liable for actions that are not in self defense)...you don't get that with "defund".



Defund the police is defunding them for the services that they shouldn't be providing. You have to fund other services within the city, state and county from that defunding. Reforming would have to come from within the Police department.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N583JB
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:33 am

casinterest wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Palop wrote:
the call to defund the police (as opposed to abolish the police) was a call to take away functions from the police that frankly they shouldn’t have in the first place.

If you have to explain what "Defund the police" means, then you have a losing argument, and I've told this to many folks in my feed who continue to put it out. The term "Reform the police" will do all that without the connotation of a reduced budget, which is what many will think of when they hear it. By enacting reforms, you take away functions that were never meant to land into the police force; you reallocate funds to other agencies or services; you enact rules and regulations for officers when they do their job (such as having a body cam active at all time, and any time in which the view is obstructed or the camera is off, the officer is liable for actions that are not in self defense)...you don't get that with "defund".



Defund the police is defunding them for the services that they shouldn't be providing. You have to fund other services within the city, state and county from that defunding. Reforming would have to come from within the Police department.


That just goes to support einstein's argument. If you have to explain that your slogan doesn't mean what most people think it does, you've already lost the P.R. battle. That's the main reason why defunding the police never polled as a popular idea.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:36 am

N583JB wrote:
casinterest wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
If you have to explain what "Defund the police" means, then you have a losing argument, and I've told this to many folks in my feed who continue to put it out. The term "Reform the police" will do all that without the connotation of a reduced budget, which is what many will think of when they hear it. By enacting reforms, you take away functions that were never meant to land into the police force; you reallocate funds to other agencies or services; you enact rules and regulations for officers when they do their job (such as having a body cam active at all time, and any time in which the view is obstructed or the camera is off, the officer is liable for actions that are not in self defense)...you don't get that with "defund".



Defund the police is defunding them for the services that they shouldn't be providing. You have to fund other services within the city, state and county from that defunding. Reforming would have to come from within the Police department.


That just goes to support einstein's argument. If you have to explain that your slogan doesn't mean what most people think it does, you've already lost the P.R. battle. That's the main reason why defunding the police never polled as a popular idea.


I it is a matter of changing how much of a CF current policing initiatives and private prison profit systems are destroying America. The PR battle is mostly from the cops that would ultimately lose their jobs.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
hashtagconfused
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:08 am

according to the article in the OP one of her tweets included a link to and urged people to sign on to "People's Budget LA" which demands a 90% reduction in police funding. is that suggesting that only 10% of what the police do is actual policing?
 
N583JB
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:11 am

hashtagconfused wrote:
according to the article in the OP one of her tweets included a link to and urged people to sign on to "People's Budget LA" which demands a 90% reduction in police funding. is that suggesting that only 10% of what the police do is actual policing?


"Sorry Alyssa....due to a 90% budget reduction, we are unable to respond to the reported gunman outside your home. Good luck!"

Also worthwhile noting that she is notoriously anti-2A. So not only does she not want people to be able to call the police for help, she also doesn't want people to be able to defend themselves if the police can't show up. Must be nice living in a gated community and telling the poor folks what is best for them.
 
Palop
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:22 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Palop wrote:
the call to defund the police (as opposed to abolish the police) was a call to take away functions from the police that frankly they shouldn’t have in the first place.

If you have to explain what "Defund the police" means, then you have a losing argument, and I've told this to many folks in my feed who continue to put it out. The term "Reform the police" will do all that without the connotation of a reduced budget, which is what many will think of when they hear it. By enacting reforms, you take away functions that were never meant to land into the police force; you reallocate funds to other agencies or services; you enact rules and regulations for officers when they do their job (such as having a body cam active at all time, and any time in which the view is obstructed or the camera is off, the officer is liable for actions that are not in self defense)...you don't get that with "defund".


I totally agree. If there is something that the American left is really bad at it’s messaging. You can count on them coming up with a not-so-snappy slogan that can easily be twisted to mean the opposite of what was meant or make what is reasonable ideas sound controversial. The US right have abhorrent ideas, but their messaging have for a long time been spot on.
As a side note, this is why the Lincoln project has been so invaluable. They’ve been mercenaries for Biden and used their evil skills for something worthwhile.
 
afcjets
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:01 am

Palop wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Palop wrote:
the call to defund the police (as opposed to abolish the police) was a call to take away functions from the police that frankly they shouldn’t have in the first place.

If you have to explain what "Defund the police" means, then you have a losing argument, and I've told this to many folks in my feed who continue to put it out. The term "Reform the police" will do all that without the connotation of a reduced budget, which is what many will think of when they hear it. By enacting reforms, you take away functions that were never meant to land into the police force; you reallocate funds to other agencies or services; you enact rules and regulations for officers when they do their job (such as having a body cam active at all time, and any time in which the view is obstructed or the camera is off, the officer is liable for actions that are not in self defense)...you don't get that with "defund".


I totally agree. If there is something that the American left is really bad at it’s messaging. You can count on them coming up with a not-so-snappy slogan that can easily be twisted to mean the opposite of what was meant or make what is reasonable ideas sound controversial. The US right have abhorrent ideas, but their messaging have for a long time been spot on.
As a side note, this is why the Lincoln project has been so invaluable. They’ve been mercenaries for Biden and used their evil skills for something worthwhile.


It was intentionally called Defund the police to imply it was meant to be punitive and retribution. Otherwise I totally agree with you most times the name they choose is the opposite of what they're proposing, but I think that's an intentional disguise. If people knew the truth upfront many would say no thanks. The ACA caused premiums to skyrocket for many Americans and the goal of Citizens United is to create division IMO.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:31 am

Well I don't agree. When violent men and boys are out there doing felonies, normal people want them to be located, arrested, tried and convicted. You cannot convince an adolescent boy with a gun to stop committing crimes. He thinks he is king of the world, until someone teaches him otherwise.

I agree that the underlying problem cannot be solved by police - but it is has been necessary, since the beginning of time, to reach short term solutions that do involve police. Perhaps when human behavior (and the nature of our species) changes, we can re-evaluate the role of police in society. Does that count as open minded? I am willing to think about trans-humanism. But humans as they are today will require police using physical force.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:51 am

Elkadad313 wrote:
BTW, a recent poll showed 81% of black Americans don't support defunding, and many want even more police presence in their communities.
https://reason.com/2020/08/06/81-percen ... ce-gallup/


the poll shows that 81% don´t understand what "defund the police" means, or that it can increase the polices ability to do actual law enforcement and provide presence.

There is absolutely nothing weird about a "defund the police" activist calling the police for a proper law enforcement function.

Right. So when funds for mental health, drug counseling, family therapy, etc. are diverted from police budgets, what will occur when police are sent to a call about a disruptive person, a person waiving a gun at a store, etc? Are police expected to do an assessment while their lives may be in jeopardy? Or think 'this guy is a nut job, we will call for a counselor and go on to our next call? Or wait for the counselor to arrive, tying up even more resources? And what if the person shoots someone while awaiting such arrival. Do a ride along with police in a larger city and then tell me how you would make this work.


let me guess... very shielded upbringing for you, and never lived in a bad neighbourhood?

Police comes to check out a disruptive person, usually arrest whomever they think is mostly at fault, no charges coming forward, and a few days later, rinse, repeat. And lots of paperwork on top. With properly funded social services they may still show up a couple of times before counselling starts taking effect, but then they won´t for a long time, or never again. And that social worker can show up for appointments, while the PD always has to keep enough excess capacity on hand to handle those disturbances....

Works Splendid well all over this planet, so unless you want to imply Americans have some sort of defect making them more criminal, unreasonable and violent as others, or it would work in the US too.

And of course the point is often simply mood, because over-emphasizing Police also means less school Councillors, less EMTs and less social workers to look after homeless for example. Pretty much no-threat situations police is neither equipped or trained for, especially given that US police more often than not doesn´t count as trained for police work either.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:32 am

NYCVIE wrote:
Palop wrote:
In danger of stepping into a hornet’s nest here, the call to defund the police (as opposed to abolish the police) was a call to take away functions from the police that frankly they shouldn’t have in the first place. Done properly, defunding the police should be a positive thing for the police as well, since they don’t have to deal with things they’re not trained and equipped for. Mental health, drug counseling, family therapy etc. are all things police has to deal with now, but should be transferred away from the police with the appropriate cut in budget. Done properly, defunding would clarify the role of the police and actually make their job easier.
For any person who is in this camp when calling for defunding the police, then there is no hypocrisy when calling 911 for an intruder as this is the actual job for the police. For people who call for the abolishing of the police (which i don’t think many actually do) then calling 911 is quite hypocritical.


Right on.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Hmm, I've seen none of the defund the police crowd elaborate on what they actually mean. Just a bunch of screaming and emotional language.

Elkadad313 wrote:
Right. So when funds for mental health, drug counseling, family therapy, etc. are diverted from police budgets, what will occur when police are sent to a call about a disruptive person, a person waiving a gun at a store, etc? Are police expected to do an assessment while their lives may be in jeopardy? Or think 'this guy is a nut job, we will call for a counselor and go on to our next call? Or wait for the counselor to arrive, tying up even more resources? And what if the person shoots someone while awaiting such arrival. Do a ride along with police in a larger city and then tell me how you would make this work.

The police are far from perfect, but taxpayers are not willing or able to fund a police department staffed by FBI-grade officers. (and there would still be mistakes made) It's called the real world.

BTW, a recent poll showed 81% of black Americans don't support defunding, and many want even more police presence in their communities.
https://reason.com/2020/08/06/81-percen ... ce-gallup/


I don't know how to quote replies from other threads, but here's a copy/paste of a response I posted in another thread on this issue (it's kind of long but would appreciate a read and response) -

First of all, I'm from a low-income community in New York City and I personally am in support of defunding the police - here's why. Defunding the police is about recognizing that the current system of policing in the United States isn't working for us. It's about realizing that predatory policing doesn't actually help build or sustain healthy and safe communities. Growing up in NYC while Stop and Frisk was an NYPD initiative was a nightmare because it genuinely instilled fear amongst the average person of color whenever they saw police officers because of the very real possibility of being targeted for no reason other than looking suspicious. I went to private school and I know many of my classmates who were stopped and frisked (in suit & tie uniform) on their way to/from school for no reason. That's not right and it's not sustainable, not to mention that Stop and Frisk was a failure in terms of yielding actual results.

Defunding the police is saying that perhaps we should redeploy finances to other community based methods of caring for and sustaining a community. Contrary to the rhetoric of the right, that doesn't mean calling a social worker to the scene of a murder instead of the police, but it just doesn't make sense that the police have the broad responsibilities they have without specialized training. I mean, the average person in a corporate job or in the medical profession goes through far more training/school than a police officer and even then is only qualified for a specific set of specialties. The same law enforcement officer shouldn't be tasked with responding to a mental health crisis, a drug episode, a break-in, a domestic abuse situation, a murder, a robbery, a rape, etc.

This is how you quickly get situations where police officers aren't adequately equipped to respond to particular episodes and out of fear invoke violence. If more money was allocated to professionals and local groups/departments who are specialized in these things you would have far less violence in de-escalating these situations and you would reduce tension between law enforcement and the average citizen. Law enforcement is not supposed to be something people fear and there honestly should be stress taken off police officers to respond to situations where they're in over their heads for lack of a better term. There have been numerous attempts to reform police departments from within with things such as body cameras, but as we've seen, in many cases they conveniently happen to not be on. Even look at that viral video from months ago in Buffalo where an elderly man was aggressively pushed by Buffalo police officer to the floor and started bleeding from his head as the other officers walked right past. The next day two officers were suspended followed by all the remaining officers on the team resigning from the unit out of either solidarity or fear of being held accountable. That's an ingrained mentality.

As for the popularity of defunding the police I think it's important to understand that proponents of this aren't expecting this to happen tomorrow. As a mainstream idea, defunding the police is extremely new - I mean, we've been dealing with Coronavirus for longer. As such it's not surprising that the support isn't there...yet. When people first hear of defunding the police it sounds like a radical, extreme idea because we've all grown up and lived in the system we have. You could ask any toddler and they'd know what a police officer is. So to suggest such a shift in an established institution like the police is a big ask for many people and it's going to take time, conversation, and debate to build awareness and support. But people are currently laying the foundation to continue this conversation. There are a lot of major shifts that have happened in the US that if you would have asked people from the jump they wouldn't have supported. Civil rights is an example. I think government funded healthcare is another - as time has passed and more people are understanding what that might look like, support for it has significantly grown.


Given all that you have said defunding the police won't stop another George Floyd style incident.
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:41 am

If the US actually cared about its citizens instead of making a show, it would defund its military. Then we could have all the programs and infrastructure you could ever ask for. Even if we just matched our military spending to that of the next highest spender
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:18 am

So it is just like Narxist would actually harm the labor right of workers they're supposed to protect?
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:24 am

Kiwirob wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
Palop wrote:
In danger of stepping into a hornet’s nest here, the call to defund the police (as opposed to abolish the police) was a call to take away functions from the police that frankly they shouldn’t have in the first place. Done properly, defunding the police should be a positive thing for the police as well, since they don’t have to deal with things they’re not trained and equipped for. Mental health, drug counseling, family therapy etc. are all things police has to deal with now, but should be transferred away from the police with the appropriate cut in budget. Done properly, defunding would clarify the role of the police and actually make their job easier.
For any person who is in this camp when calling for defunding the police, then there is no hypocrisy when calling 911 for an intruder as this is the actual job for the police. For people who call for the abolishing of the police (which i don’t think many actually do) then calling 911 is quite hypocritical.


Right on.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Hmm, I've seen none of the defund the police crowd elaborate on what they actually mean. Just a bunch of screaming and emotional language.

Elkadad313 wrote:
Right. So when funds for mental health, drug counseling, family therapy, etc. are diverted from police budgets, what will occur when police are sent to a call about a disruptive person, a person waiving a gun at a store, etc? Are police expected to do an assessment while their lives may be in jeopardy? Or think 'this guy is a nut job, we will call for a counselor and go on to our next call? Or wait for the counselor to arrive, tying up even more resources? And what if the person shoots someone while awaiting such arrival. Do a ride along with police in a larger city and then tell me how you would make this work.

The police are far from perfect, but taxpayers are not willing or able to fund a police department staffed by FBI-grade officers. (and there would still be mistakes made) It's called the real world.

BTW, a recent poll showed 81% of black Americans don't support defunding, and many want even more police presence in their communities.
https://reason.com/2020/08/06/81-percen ... ce-gallup/


I don't know how to quote replies from other threads, but here's a copy/paste of a response I posted in another thread on this issue (it's kind of long but would appreciate a read and response) -

First of all, I'm from a low-income community in New York City and I personally am in support of defunding the police - here's why. Defunding the police is about recognizing that the current system of policing in the United States isn't working for us. It's about realizing that predatory policing doesn't actually help build or sustain healthy and safe communities. Growing up in NYC while Stop and Frisk was an NYPD initiative was a nightmare because it genuinely instilled fear amongst the average person of color whenever they saw police officers because of the very real possibility of being targeted for no reason other than looking suspicious. I went to private school and I know many of my classmates who were stopped and frisked (in suit & tie uniform) on their way to/from school for no reason. That's not right and it's not sustainable, not to mention that Stop and Frisk was a failure in terms of yielding actual results.

Defunding the police is saying that perhaps we should redeploy finances to other community based methods of caring for and sustaining a community. Contrary to the rhetoric of the right, that doesn't mean calling a social worker to the scene of a murder instead of the police, but it just doesn't make sense that the police have the broad responsibilities they have without specialized training. I mean, the average person in a corporate job or in the medical profession goes through far more training/school than a police officer and even then is only qualified for a specific set of specialties. The same law enforcement officer shouldn't be tasked with responding to a mental health crisis, a drug episode, a break-in, a domestic abuse situation, a murder, a robbery, a rape, etc.

This is how you quickly get situations where police officers aren't adequately equipped to respond to particular episodes and out of fear invoke violence. If more money was allocated to professionals and local groups/departments who are specialized in these things you would have far less violence in de-escalating these situations and you would reduce tension between law enforcement and the average citizen. Law enforcement is not supposed to be something people fear and there honestly should be stress taken off police officers to respond to situations where they're in over their heads for lack of a better term. There have been numerous attempts to reform police departments from within with things such as body cameras, but as we've seen, in many cases they conveniently happen to not be on. Even look at that viral video from months ago in Buffalo where an elderly man was aggressively pushed by Buffalo police officer to the floor and started bleeding from his head as the other officers walked right past. The next day two officers were suspended followed by all the remaining officers on the team resigning from the unit out of either solidarity or fear of being held accountable. That's an ingrained mentality.

As for the popularity of defunding the police I think it's important to understand that proponents of this aren't expecting this to happen tomorrow. As a mainstream idea, defunding the police is extremely new - I mean, we've been dealing with Coronavirus for longer. As such it's not surprising that the support isn't there...yet. When people first hear of defunding the police it sounds like a radical, extreme idea because we've all grown up and lived in the system we have. You could ask any toddler and they'd know what a police officer is. So to suggest such a shift in an established institution like the police is a big ask for many people and it's going to take time, conversation, and debate to build awareness and support. But people are currently laying the foundation to continue this conversation. There are a lot of major shifts that have happened in the US that if you would have asked people from the jump they wouldn't have supported. Civil rights is an example. I think government funded healthcare is another - as time has passed and more people are understanding what that might look like, support for it has significantly grown.


Given all that you have said defunding the police won't stop another George Floyd style incident.


Well, nothing short of actually training police officers will do that .....
Which Police departments may have time and money for if they don´t do non-police stuff all the freaking time....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
extender
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:08 pm

Willfully ignorant? Interesting. The police need to be properly trained, and society needs to learn some manners. Imagine if you will you go to a physician with that "f&%k you" attitude. You're already creating animosity.

You break a traffic law, expect a ticket. Not every traffic stop results in a black man's death.
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:13 pm

extender wrote:
Willfully ignorant? Interesting. The police need to be properly trained.


well, how about starting there then?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:22 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
extender wrote:
Willfully ignorant? Interesting. The police need to be properly trained.


well, how about starting there then?


How about:
... and society needs to learn some manners?

You cannot deny society has gotten too pissy for their own good.
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:27 pm

extender wrote:

You break a traffic law, expect a ticket. Not every traffic stop results in a black man's death.


That cuts both ways. You have to expect people to be noncompliant, people just don't want to receive tickets, people don't want to be reminded they've broken the law. That doesn't mean death sentence for non compliance.
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:30 pm

extender wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
extender wrote:
Willfully ignorant? Interesting. The police need to be properly trained.


well, how about starting there then?


How about:
... and society needs to learn some manners?


Nope, a cop represents the executive branch, and hence the nation as a whole, and has to be at his best behavior at all times or be dismissed, even if they are unruly in their free time. That is how real police works.

You cannot deny society has gotten too pissy for their own good.


Non government employed people however can act like asses as much as their like. Won´t help them in their personal and other relationships, but if a cop doesn´t have the self control, he can´t be a cop. That is why real police checks performance under presse longer than most of your cops are "trained".

Its also the same argument rapists have been making since the dawn of time "this wouldn´t happen if only you´d behave properly".

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:31 pm

JJJ wrote:
extender wrote:

You break a traffic law, expect a ticket. Not every traffic stop results in a black man's death.


That cuts both ways. You have to expect people to be noncompliant, people just don't want to receive tickets, people don't want to be reminded they've broken the law. That doesn't mean death sentence for non compliance.


We have freedom of speech! Unless you use it towards a cop, he may murder you and get away with it.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
N867DA
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:22 pm

Policing in America is more prone to violence. It doesn't matter if a cop works in a town of 500 in the middle of nowhere. If he or she pulls over a car without of state tags the officer must always entertain the idea their life is in immediate peril. Healthy people have a built-in sense of self-preservation, and will err to act on that sense.

Add in inherent bias in our society.
Add in unfamiliarity with the community being policed
Add in the need to demonstrate authority (which pairs with the need for self-preservation)

The perception that society is more unruly therefore may well prompt police to shoot sooner. And society will no longer entertain that there are cases where a shooting is 'good'.

Dang, America is hard!
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:38 pm

Elkadad313 wrote:
From the article: 'Defund the police' activist actress Alyssa Milano called 911 when she believed an armed gunman was on her Bell Canyon property in California on Sunday morning. At least seven Ventura County Sheriffs' vehicles, one K-9 unit, a police helicopter and one Los Angeles Fire Department team responded.

IMO, the 911 dispatcher should have said, ‘We are understaffed right now, but can fit you in sometime this evening.’

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... g-911.html


I don’t think you understand in the slightest what people mean by defund the police....
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:38 pm

N867DA wrote:
Healthy people have a built-in sense of self-preservation, and will err to act on that sense.


that is why proper police forces always operate in pairs, and the cop interacting with the citizen does not ever have a hand even near the handle of his weapon....... while the cop in the overwatch position is a) outside the citizens view not to unnerve him, and b) distant enough to don´t act like a scared chicken, but still c) fully able to protect his fellow officers.

Of course real police training helps a lot with that, it may be a good idea to have a proper 2-4 year training like every professional police force on the planet has, and a central register to make sure that a cop slipping up never ever works as a cop anywhere ever again. Or in any position of power really.

Should root out those few bad apples in the police force quite quickly, and the good cops could end up well meaning and able as well.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:47 pm

I was getting a reply?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:52 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
N867DA wrote:
Healthy people have a built-in sense of self-preservation, and will err to act on that sense.


that is why proper police forces always operate in pairs, and the cop interacting with the citizen does not ever have a hand even near the handle of his weapon....... while the cop in the overwatch position is a) outside the citizens view not to unnerve him, and b) distant enough to don´t act like a scared chicken, but still c) fully able to protect his fellow officers.

Of course real police training helps a lot with that, it may be a good idea to have a proper 2-4 year training like every professional police force on the planet has, and a central register to make sure that a cop slipping up never ever works as a cop anywhere ever again. Or in any position of power really.

Should root out those few bad apples in the police force quite quickly, and the good cops could end up well meaning and able as well.

best regards
Thomas


A lot of major cities have officers operate in pairs, but in smaller cities, suburban areas, and rural areas, that isn't a realistic option. If you have 20 precincts that need coverage and you have 20 officers on night shift, it makes sense to have one officer in a squad car per precinct rather than having two officers per car who are only able to cover half the geographic area that the split crews could cover.
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:54 pm

N583JB wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
N867DA wrote:
Healthy people have a built-in sense of self-preservation, and will err to act on that sense.


that is why proper police forces always operate in pairs, and the cop interacting with the citizen does not ever have a hand even near the handle of his weapon....... while the cop in the overwatch position is a) outside the citizens view not to unnerve him, and b) distant enough to don´t act like a scared chicken, but still c) fully able to protect his fellow officers.

Of course real police training helps a lot with that, it may be a good idea to have a proper 2-4 year training like every professional police force on the planet has, and a central register to make sure that a cop slipping up never ever works as a cop anywhere ever again. Or in any position of power really.

Should root out those few bad apples in the police force quite quickly, and the good cops could end up well meaning and able as well.

best regards
Thomas


A lot of major cities have officers operate in pairs, but in smaller cities, suburban areas, and rural areas, that isn't a realistic option. If you have 20 precincts that need coverage and you have 20 officers on night shift, it makes sense to have one officer in a squad car per precinct rather than having two officers per car who are only able to cover half the geographic area that the split crews could cover.


because the USA is the only country with smaller cities and rural areas?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
N583JB
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:58 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

that is why proper police forces always operate in pairs, and the cop interacting with the citizen does not ever have a hand even near the handle of his weapon....... while the cop in the overwatch position is a) outside the citizens view not to unnerve him, and b) distant enough to don´t act like a scared chicken, but still c) fully able to protect his fellow officers.

Of course real police training helps a lot with that, it may be a good idea to have a proper 2-4 year training like every professional police force on the planet has, and a central register to make sure that a cop slipping up never ever works as a cop anywhere ever again. Or in any position of power really.

Should root out those few bad apples in the police force quite quickly, and the good cops could end up well meaning and able as well.

best regards
Thomas


A lot of major cities have officers operate in pairs, but in smaller cities, suburban areas, and rural areas, that isn't a realistic option. If you have 20 precincts that need coverage and you have 20 officers on night shift, it makes sense to have one officer in a squad car per precinct rather than having two officers per car who are only able to cover half the geographic area that the split crews could cover.


because the USA is the only country with smaller cities and rural areas?

best regards
Thomas


Did I say that? What works well in France probably isn't going to work well in rural Alabama.
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:17 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
N583JB wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

because the USA is the only country with smaller cities and rural areas?

best regards
Thomas


Did I say that? What works well in France probably isn't going to work well in rural Alabama.


I would answer but it might hurt your feelings and then get deleted so.......

Fred



I will take a leap of faith and assume the message is critical of America. The reality is that America is a tad more tolerant of violence and less socially minded than France, and our policing must reflect this. American cops are under greater threat from the public, and must take defensive steps more often. There is no quick viable fix even if different solutions are obvious to every party involved.
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:45 pm

N583JB wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
N583JB wrote:

You aren't going to hurt my feelings. I welcome reasonable debate. Go for it.


I shan't engage, you have been willfully ignorant this entire thread and then after those posts highlighting that have been deleted you suddenly 'Welcome reasonable debate'

If you want a reasonable debate you must first acknowledge the premise of what the 'defund the police' movement actually is. ball's in your court.

Fred


There is no consensus....some "defund" people want the police completely abolished, others want funding diverted to different programs. Either approach is misguided.


No consensus? Really poor. A tactic used by many misinformation campaigns to to demonstrate no absolute consensus and therefor spread uncertainty, its the tobacco playbook.

There is large amounts of consensus on either side of the debate here. One side who are for defunding advocating the latter of what you describe and those against who believe it to be the former. Seems the agreement has, at the very least a consensus against the police being abolished. The debate is clearly then between whether police funding should be left as is or should be moved to a model whereby money is moved away from front line crime fighting and into areas where preventative action is taken to alleviate the sources of crime rather then fight the effects.

The issue is your refusal to acknowledge that this is the debate is the reason for the calls of wilful ignorance. You can either engage on the above terms or not.

Fred
Image
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:51 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
N583JB wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

I shan't engage, you have been willfully ignorant this entire thread and then after those posts highlighting that have been deleted you suddenly 'Welcome reasonable debate'

If you want a reasonable debate you must first acknowledge the premise of what the 'defund the police' movement actually is. ball's in your court.

Fred


There is no consensus....some "defund" people want the police completely abolished, others want funding diverted to different programs. Either approach is misguided.


No consensus? Really poor. A tactic used by many misinformation campaigns to to demonstrate no absolute consensus and therefor spread uncertainty, its the tobacco playbook.

There is large amounts of consensus on either side of the debate here. One side who are for defunding advocating the latter of what you describe and those against who believe it to be the former. Seems the agreement has, at the very least a consensus against the police being abolished. The debate is clearly then between whether police funding should be left as is or should be moved to a model whereby money is moved away from front line crime fighting and into areas where preventative action is taken to alleviate the sources of crime rather then fight the effects.

The issue is your refusal to acknowledge that this is the debate is the reason for the calls of wilful ignorance. You can either engage on the above terms or not.

Fred


You say that, and yet the "abolish" crowd publishes op-eds in the New York Times calling for the literal abolition of the police-

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opin ... olice.html
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:59 pm

N583JB wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
N583JB wrote:

There is no consensus....some "defund" people want the police completely abolished, others want funding diverted to different programs. Either approach is misguided.


No consensus? Really poor. A tactic used by many misinformation campaigns to to demonstrate no absolute consensus and therefor spread uncertainty, its the tobacco playbook.

There is large amounts of consensus on either side of the debate here. One side who are for defunding advocating the latter of what you describe and those against who believe it to be the former. Seems the agreement has, at the very least a consensus against the police being abolished. The debate is clearly then between whether police funding should be left as is or should be moved to a model whereby money is moved away from front line crime fighting and into areas where preventative action is taken to alleviate the sources of crime rather then fight the effects.

The issue is your refusal to acknowledge that this is the debate is the reason for the calls of wilful ignorance. You can either engage on the above terms or not.

Fred


You say that, and yet the "abolish" crowd publishes op-eds in the New York Times calling for the literal abolition of the police-

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opin ... olice.html

A straw man from the other side...irony.

Not the point I'm arguing though.
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:00 pm

Interestingly enough, it turns out Alyssa Milano isn’t even the one who initially called the police
 
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:07 pm

extender wrote:
You break a traffic law, expect a ticket.


A reasonable state of affairs, or more likely in my experience - you break traffic law, you risk getting a ticket and shouldn't be too surprised if you do.

However, it would be nice if the police approached every traffic stop equally and their actions weren't dependent on the driver's gender or skin colour. Sadly, this isn't an America-only problem, it happens in the UK as well.
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:16 pm

FGITD wrote:
Interestingly enough, it turns out Alyssa Milano isn’t even the one who initially called the police


It's ok though right? It triggered the snowflakes on the right wing side of this crazy argument.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:19 pm

scbriml wrote:
extender wrote:
You break a traffic law, expect a ticket.


A reasonable state of affairs, or more likely in my experience - you break traffic law, you risk getting a ticket and shouldn't be too surprised if you do.

However, it would be nice if the police approached every traffic stop equally and their actions weren't dependent on the driver's gender or skin colour. Sadly, this isn't an America-only problem, it happens in the UK as well.

I have a pretty blonde wife, she never gets a ticket despite the speed at which she goes.... :roll:
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:31 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
N583JB wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

No consensus? Really poor. A tactic used by many misinformation campaigns to to demonstrate no absolute consensus and therefor spread uncertainty, its the tobacco playbook.

There is large amounts of consensus on either side of the debate here. One side who are for defunding advocating the latter of what you describe and those against who believe it to be the former. Seems the agreement has, at the very least a consensus against the police being abolished. The debate is clearly then between whether police funding should be left as is or should be moved to a model whereby money is moved away from front line crime fighting and into areas where preventative action is taken to alleviate the sources of crime rather then fight the effects.

The issue is your refusal to acknowledge that this is the debate is the reason for the calls of wilful ignorance. You can either engage on the above terms or not.

Fred


You say that, and yet the "abolish" crowd publishes op-eds in the New York Times calling for the literal abolition of the police-

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opin ... olice.html

A straw man from the other side...irony.

Not the point I'm arguing though.


The funny bit is that he probably didn't read the piece, as it doesn't say what he thinks it says (and to be fair the headline does imply)..

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13487
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:37 pm

scbriml wrote:
extender wrote:
You break a traffic law, expect a ticket.


A reasonable state of affairs, or more likely in my experience - you break traffic law, you risk getting a ticket and shouldn't be too surprised if you do..


Breaking a traffic law here means risking to get a ticket in the mail a few days later. No chance for a fatal interaction...

I was stopped by police once in my life, I forgot to get my tech checkup in time, so something could have been dangerously wrong with my car... so they had to stop me.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
N583JB
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:38 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
N583JB wrote:

You say that, and yet the "abolish" crowd publishes op-eds in the New York Times calling for the literal abolition of the police-

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opin ... olice.html

A straw man from the other side...irony.

Not the point I'm arguing though.


The funny bit is that he probably didn't read the piece, as it doesn't say what he thinks it says (and to be fair the headline does imply)..

Best regards
Thomas


I did read the piece...it calls for departments to be slashed in half. An utterly ridiculous and dangerous idea, and thankfully, one that is not supported.
 
N583JB
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:40 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
extender wrote:
You break a traffic law, expect a ticket.


A reasonable state of affairs, or more likely in my experience - you break traffic law, you risk getting a ticket and shouldn't be too surprised if you do..


Breaking a traffic law here means risking to get a ticket in the mail a few days later. No chance for a fatal interaction...

I was stopped by police once in my life, I forgot to get my tech checkup in time, so something could have been dangerously wrong with my car... so they had to stop me.

Best regards
Thomas


The risk of fatal interaction at a traffic stop in the United States if you follow instructions and don't act like a crazy person is not zero, but it is as close to zero as it can get. There have been maybe three or four cases in the last decade of officers going berserk at traffic stops and shooting for no reason, out of millions and millions and millions of stops.
Last edited by N583JB on Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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c933103
Posts: 4484
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Re: Defund the police activist ... needs the police

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:41 pm

flipdewaf wrote:

There is large amounts of consensus on either side of the debate here. One side who are for defunding advocating the latter of what you describe and those against who believe it to be the former. Seems the agreement has, at the very least a consensus against the police being abolished. The debate is clearly then between whether police funding should be left as is or should be moved to a model whereby money is moved away from front line crime fighting and into areas where preventative action is taken to alleviate the sources of crime rather then fight the effects.

You have forgotten to acknowledge the opinion of increasing funding for police to better train them
And, how does reallocating police funding make police reduce their violence?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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