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Blurp2
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Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:49 am

You know, I don't often agree with Trump, but I have to say, his stand on Critical Race Theory looks right on to me.

https://www.vox.com/2020/9/18/21445579/ ... ace-theory

CRT is intellectually vacant. Wikipedia gives a couple-three definitions (depending on how you count them), including:

1) CRT recognizes that racism is engrained in the fabric and system of the American society. The individual racist need not exist to note that institutional racism is pervasive in the dominant culture. This is the analytical lens that CRT uses in examining existing power structures. CRT identifies that these power structures are based on white privilege and white supremacy, which perpetuates the marginalization of people of color.

This definition seems to refer to CRT as though it were a substance, or a person. If it were a theory it could be explained, and either justified or attacked. It can't be explained, or it would have been laid out much more concretely and rationally, and so it can't be either "a theory" or just the (newly invented) substance called "theory." Of whose properties none can tell. (Hush! You'll wake the children!) CRT "recognizes" - please. CRT doesn't recognize anything. It's not a person. Noting that institutional racism is pervasive is not an analytical lens, although it may be correct, and to suggest that racists need not exist to perpetuate racism... eh, I'd have to see some evidence on that. I know no one THINKS they're racist, but how would you tell? What's the test? There's no test.

Sorry, just spouting off. Intellectual dishonesty bothers me. If you don't know something, say so. Don't talk around an issue and think you've said something. Yeesh.
 
Redd
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:06 am

The world is going off of the deep end, and it's not going to end well. CRT is appealing to people because it erases the need for personal responsibility and blames every problem one race has on 'the big bad white male'. Every such leftist movement is devoid of personal responsibility, from 3rd & 4th wave feminism, BLM, CRT, and it's going to turn on itself and destroy itself, unfortunately leaving in its wake destruction on a scale not witnessed in decades.

It's pretty much the losers of society, getting some form of power and cancelling anyone who dares question their 'logic'. Fascism under the umbrella of tolerance.
 
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c933103
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:38 am

From my brief reading on the theory, CRT theory is as much a theory as Maoism is a theory.

It call for recognizing certain group of people and certain society as inherently evil and call for action to against them.

The promotion of such theory could lead to civil war, and that's probably a desired result of those who promote it as they want to permanently change the nature of the society.
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c933103
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:32 am

It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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Aaron747
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:16 pm

There are systemic issues - but they affect some more than others. Upper middle class Asians cannot claim they suffer as much racism as lower middle class blacks or Chicanos from suburban Texas. And that's separate from the fact that NOW is now and whatever happened in the past - whoever you are - doesn't much apply to now. The biggest issue is it sucks and is expensive to be poor in America - no matter who you are. The wealthy are capable of fixing it but have no incentive to give a damn because they don't have to see the effects. That’s just basic psychology. Properly funding inner city schools and youth shelters would go a very long way.
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c933103
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:37 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
There are systemic issues - but they affect some more than others. Upper middle class Asians cannot claim they suffer as much racism as lower middle class blacks or Chicanos from suburban Texas. And that's separate from the fact that NOW is now and whatever happened in the past - whoever you are - doesn't much apply to now. The biggest issue is it sucks and is expensive to be poor in America - no matter who you are. The wealthy are capable of fixing it but have no incentive to give a damn because they don't have to see the effects. That’s just basic psychology. Properly funding inner city schools and youth shelters would go a very long way.

I don't think "The Wealthy" have the power to determine how schools and youth shelter are funded. They can make personal donation but it only have so much effect. It is a matter to be determined by politicians.
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N867DA
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:44 pm

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
There are systemic issues - but they affect some more than others. Upper middle class Asians cannot claim they suffer as much racism as lower middle class blacks or Chicanos from suburban Texas. And that's separate from the fact that NOW is now and whatever happened in the past - whoever you are - doesn't much apply to now. The biggest issue is it sucks and is expensive to be poor in America - no matter who you are. The wealthy are capable of fixing it but have no incentive to give a damn because they don't have to see the effects. That’s just basic psychology. Properly funding inner city schools and youth shelters would go a very long way.

I don't think "The Wealthy" have the power to determine how schools and youth shelter are funded. They can make personal donation but it only have so much effect. It is a matter to be determined by politicians.



Politicians who are solely motivated on re-election become susceptible to donations from the wealthy and then push for legislation that will benefit primarily the wealthy, or their businesses.

Some institutions though, like education and healthcare, are not fully due to funding issues, but process failures from the top down.
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c933103
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:48 pm

N867DA wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
There are systemic issues - but they affect some more than others. Upper middle class Asians cannot claim they suffer as much racism as lower middle class blacks or Chicanos from suburban Texas. And that's separate from the fact that NOW is now and whatever happened in the past - whoever you are - doesn't much apply to now. The biggest issue is it sucks and is expensive to be poor in America - no matter who you are. The wealthy are capable of fixing it but have no incentive to give a damn because they don't have to see the effects. That’s just basic psychology. Properly funding inner city schools and youth shelters would go a very long way.

I don't think "The Wealthy" have the power to determine how schools and youth shelter are funded. They can make personal donation but it only have so much effect. It is a matter to be determined by politicians.



Politicians who are solely motivated on re-election become susceptible to donations from the wealthy and then push for legislation that will benefit primarily the wealthy, or their businesses.

Some institutions though, like education and healthcare, are not fully due to funding issues, but process failures from the top down.

But from my observation, most of the world-famous wealthy American seems to be in favor of increased government spending on solving social problems in the U.S.?
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:22 pm

A similar thing to a standard Christian catechism. Three fold nature of sin:

Personal- the person is substantially responsible and it is appropriate to feel guilt.

Societal- society is set up to run itself(?) and people live in and within its standards, ethics, and prejudices. Individuals are not personally guilty for societal sins, but the prophets who announce faults need be listened to or the society will fail further.

Cosmic- earthquakes, volcanoes, viruses, germs, death, T-Rex, are all part of what brought us to where we are. Life is inherently tragic.

Just about all post-axial age religions posit something like this, and assert persons, kings, emperors, governments are to be involved in alleviating suffering.
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Aaron747
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:29 pm

c933103 wrote:
N867DA wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I don't think "The Wealthy" have the power to determine how schools and youth shelter are funded. They can make personal donation but it only have so much effect. It is a matter to be determined by politicians.



Politicians who are solely motivated on re-election become susceptible to donations from the wealthy and then push for legislation that will benefit primarily the wealthy, or their businesses.

Some institutions though, like education and healthcare, are not fully due to funding issues, but process failures from the top down.

But from my observation, most of the world-famous wealthy American seems to be in favor of increased government spending on solving social problems in the U.S.?


The famous ones number in the hundreds - that's not enough influence. There are many more tens of thousands who don't even pretend to care, because they see no need to.
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flyguy89
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:39 pm

My problem with CRT is two-fold:

1) The historical evidence underpinning it is extraordinarily thin and often non-existent. It makes the most tenuous of claims driven more by activism for unrelated issues which often don't stand up to academic rigger.

2) It demands a borderline religious/faith-based obedience where "narrative" is more important than truth. Indeed it creates Christian-like dogmatic concept of original sin to which there is no real solution...if everyone and everything around you is racist and all about race, how can you ever hope to solve it? The aims are always equally vague and nebulous (coming to terms with race, reconciling with race, have a national conversation on racism, etc) and it ultimately breeds a defeatist attitude where you can't hope to change anything in the reality they claim, save for virtue signaling, self flagellation, and abnegation.

There are real racial issues in this country, and I don't have a problem with theories like CRT being studied or openly debated. But the problem in American higher education is that activism has become so pervasive that a theory like CRT is given way too much currency and cannot be objectively scrutinized.
 
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c933103
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:50 pm

After searching more about it it seems like this "Critial Race Theory" have multiple variation from its original proposal that law in the US are inherently carrying racial bias to the version that appears in training sessiom which claik white people are inherently racist.
https://twitter.com/realchrisrufo/statu ... 7525661697
I have found a link on Twitter describing what CRT training is like and it seems to me like it is aggressively forcing people to think in a racist manner.
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Blurp2
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:15 am

c933103 wrote:
From my brief reading on the theory, CRT theory is as much a theory as Maoism is a theory.

It call for recognizing certain group of people and certain society as inherently evil and call for action to against them.

The promotion of such theory could lead to civil war, and that's probably a desired result of those who promote it as they want to permanently change the nature of the society.


Interesting idea, but personally, I doubt that any CRT theorists want civil war. What I think they want is to continue getting a paycheck from the government to teach their BS to unsuspecting young adults. Civil war would interfere with this paycheck, and so I really doubt any of them would go that far if things in general, the political situation, looked like it was getting serious about going in that direction. And right now, despite all the hysteria you see online, no, we're not anywhere near civil war.
 
Blurp2
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:16 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Properly funding inner city schools and youth shelters would go a very long way.


Looks right on to me. I'll go with that.
 
Blurp2
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:31 am

flyguy89 wrote:
.if everyone and everything around you is racist and all about race, how can you ever hope to solve it?


Right, good point. They have no solutions, only problems. That is not constructive. Actually, my understanding is that CRT theorists generally accept that Americans are NOT racist. Where they get this idea, or how they defend it, I don't know. What they stand on most securely is the idea that our institutions are structurally racist. By which they mean, it doesn't matter how unracist the people staffing these organizations are, they could have all black staff and STILL produce racist outcomes. Which may be true, I don't know. And if they know, or have evidence of this, I haven't seen that either. But even that wouldn't be theory, it would just be a set of data that anyone could look at and come to their own conclusions about.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:23 am

Blurp2 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
.if everyone and everything around you is racist and all about race, how can you ever hope to solve it?


Right, good point. They have no solutions, only problems. That is not constructive. Actually, my understanding is that CRT theorists generally accept that Americans are NOT racist. Where they get this idea, or how they defend it, I don't know. What they stand on most securely is the idea that our institutions are structurally racist. By which they mean, it doesn't matter how unracist the people staffing these organizations are, they could have all black staff and STILL produce racist outcomes. Which may be true, I don't know. And if they know, or have evidence of this, I haven't seen that either. But even that wouldn't be theory, it would just be a set of data that anyone could look at and come to their own conclusions about.


That’s the wonder of data - it doesn’t lie. It can be used to lie, but data is data.

Data shows POC have great educational performance and career prospects when raised in safe, upper middle class communities - the same as anyone in such communities. I grew up in such a place and there were not many black kids - some of them experienced racist comments from fellow students, to be sure. But nobody and nothing stopped them from becoming MDs, JDs and startup cash-outs.

Money is the great equalizer of opportunity - so the data tells us if you can get poor kids out of stressful home environments and into safe schools that look nice, they’ll do okay and their kids won’t be at high risk of bad outcomes. We have all the money in the world for defense contracts and the like, not so much for addressing the points above.
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c933103
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:56 am

Blurp2 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
.if everyone and everything around you is racist and all about race, how can you ever hope to solve it?


Right, good point. They have no solutions, only problems. That is not constructive. Actually, my understanding is that CRT theorists generally accept that Americans are NOT racist. Where they get this idea, or how they defend it, I don't know. What they stand on most securely is the idea that our institutions are structurally racist. By which they mean, it doesn't matter how unracist the people staffing these organizations are, they could have all black staff and STILL produce racist outcomes. Which may be true, I don't know. And if they know, or have evidence of this, I haven't seen that either. But even that wouldn't be theory, it would just be a set of data that anyone could look at and come to their own conclusions about.

According to what I have read, CRT think virtually all White in the US are inherently racist
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Blurp2
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:10 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Money is the great equalizer of opportunity - so the data tells us if you can get poor kids out of stressful home environments and into safe schools that look nice, they’ll do okay and their kids won’t be at high risk of bad outcomes. We have all the money in the world for defense contracts and the like, not so much for addressing the points above.


Yes, but what's your point? /s
 
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:11 am

c933103 wrote:
According to what I have read, CRT think virtually all White in the US are inherently racist


I'd be interested to see where you got that. That's not my impression.
 
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c933103
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:47 pm

Blurp2 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
According to what I have read, CRT think virtually all White in the US are inherently racist


I'd be interested to see where you got that. That's not my impression.

For example
https://twitter.com/realchrisrufo/statu ... 7525661697
https://www.dismantlingracism.org/racism-defined.html
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Aaron747
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:50 pm

Blurp2 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Money is the great equalizer of opportunity - so the data tells us if you can get poor kids out of stressful home environments and into safe schools that look nice, they’ll do okay and their kids won’t be at high risk of bad outcomes. We have all the money in the world for defense contracts and the like, not so much for addressing the points above.


Yes, but what's your point? /s


We already know what would turn a lot of the 'ills' of our society around - there's just no will to really put the money into it. Especially a project where the gains won't be visible for a generation or more.
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Blurp2
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:58 pm

c933103 wrote:
Blurp2 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
According to what I have read, CRT think virtually all White in the US are inherently racist


I'd be interested to see where you got that. That's not my impression.

For example
https://twitter.com/realchrisrufo/statu ... 7525661697
https://www.dismantlingracism.org/racism-defined.html


Huh. Well, I don't look at videos due to limitations on my internet supply, but I looked at your second reference and it doesn't say anything there about how to tell who's racist and who isn't. In fact it doesn't call anyone a racist, that I can see. It offers four competing/cooperating definitions of racism without explaining how they know they're right, or how they work together/against one another, and it's just more of the same old mumbo-jumbo as far as I can tell. Not worth spending time with. None of these CRT characters seem to worry at all about how to tell whether they're right or wrong. And that's essential.
 
Blurp2
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:03 am

Aaron747 wrote:
We already know what would turn a lot of the 'ills' of our society around - there's just no will to really put the money into it. Especially a project where the gains won't be visible for a generation or more.


I wonder how much of the defense budget it would cost to bring our educational system up to speed. I wonder if we left Europe to itself and just focused on Japan and South Korea, if we could then reduce the defense budget to the point where we could do something like that. I mean, there are reasons for the big defense budget. We're keeping some pretty important peace around the world. Japan, for example, has no military capability, I think. We do their national defense. (?? not sure about that!) Is it important to be able to counter China in the South China Sea? Not sure. But there are a lot of people that say if we left South Korea on its own that North Korea, backed by the Chinese, would invade immediately. That seems doubtful to me - I think they're as used to peace as we are, at this point, and it would take some doing to get them off their rumps - but it could happen. That would be pretty disastrous. All this is way, way off topic of course. But interesting!
 
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c933103
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:06 am

Blurp2 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Blurp2 wrote:

I'd be interested to see where you got that. That's not my impression.

For example
https://twitter.com/realchrisrufo/statu ... 7525661697
https://www.dismantlingracism.org/racism-defined.html


Huh. Well, I don't look at videos due to limitations on my internet supply, but I looked at your second reference and it doesn't say anything there about how to tell who's racist and who isn't. In fact it doesn't call anyone a racist, that I can see. It offers four competing/cooperating definitions of racism without explaining how they know they're right, or how they work together/against one another, and it's just more of the same old mumbo-jumbo as far as I can tell. Not worth spending time with. None of these CRT characters seem to worry at all about how to tell whether they're right or wrong. And that's essential.

What, I have not linked any video
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Aaron747
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:10 am

Blurp2 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
We already know what would turn a lot of the 'ills' of our society around - there's just no will to really put the money into it. Especially a project where the gains won't be visible for a generation or more.


I wonder how much of the defense budget it would cost to bring our educational system up to speed. I wonder if we left Europe to itself and just focused on Japan and South Korea, if we could then reduce the defense budget to the point where we could do something like that. I mean, there are reasons for the big defense budget. We're keeping some pretty important peace around the world. Japan, for example, has no military capability, I think. We do their national defense. (?? not sure about that!) Is it important to be able to counter China in the South China Sea? Not sure. But there are a lot of people that say if we left South Korea on its own that North Korea, backed by the Chinese, would invade immediately. That seems doubtful to me - I think they're as used to peace as we are, at this point, and it would take some doing to get them off their rumps - but it could happen. That would be pretty disastrous. All this is way, way off topic of course. But interesting!


Japan has plenty of capability - but they are limited to self defense. Their defense budget is over $50B annually.
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Blurp2
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:15 am

Huh. Well, that doesn't sound too restraining. We here in the US, of course, call everything our military does "self defense," so I'm not sure how that would stop Japan from anything at all.
 
Blurp2
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Re: Critical Race Theory

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:19 am

c933103 wrote:
What, I have not linked any video


Oh, I see. I thought the twitter thing was a video. It seems less authoritative than the first reference you gave me, anyway, because the guy is repeating rumors, and so who knows what actually happened. You can't buy into everything you see on the internet, as I'm sure you're aware.

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