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N583JB
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Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:40 pm

https://www.wlky.com/article/how-louisv ... /34116772#

Personally, I think there is a zero percent chance that the officers involved are charged with murder, and I think there is a greater chance of no charges than there is of manslaughter or other charges. Seven criminal defense attorneys in Louisville were surveyed (three of them Black), and all agreed that there was likely nothing the officers could or should be charged with-

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 529469002/

Hopefully the city can avoid damage and/or rioting whenever the decision is announced. FWIW, Louisville has already has 122 homicides in 2020, making it the deadliest year in the city's history, with three months still to go-

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 746328002/
 
Kno
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:11 pm

Kno wrote:
Breonna and her boyfriend did absolutely nothing wrong - including her boyfriend firing the first shot to defend the house against who knows what.

How do we hold police accountable for killing someone in a situation like this if there are no consequences?

Clearly this is no way to police and people have a right to be angry and terrified.
Last edited by Kno on Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:29 pm

Kno wrote:
Breonna and her boyfriend did absolutely nothing wrong - including her boyfriend firing the first shot to defend the house against who knows what.

How do we hold police accountable for killing someone in a situation like this if there are no consequences?

Clearly this is no way to police and people have a right to be angry and terrified.


well, it is a great why for organized crime to get the perfect hit job done .. just pay a dirty cop to break into the wrong house to make an arrest, and shoot to collect their pay. Will get away with it too. Would be interesting to investigate how often that does happen...

I guess there is a need for fully automatic weapons for citizens after all, since you may need to mow down a whole SWAT team before they murder you and your innocent loved ones "by accident". High capacity clips too.... i do however have the feeling they will find something to charge you with.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:56 pm

Kno wrote:
Kno wrote:
Breonna and her boyfriend did absolutely nothing wrong - including her boyfriend firing the first shot to defend the house against who knows what.

How do we hold police accountable for killing someone in a situation like this if there are no consequences?

Clearly this is no way to police and people have a right to be angry and terrified.


Sometimes bad things happen but no laws are broken. Case and point, a doctor misdiagnoses a patient and the patient dies as a result. If the doctor was acting in good faith and within the scope of his/her training, and simply had to make a call and made the wrong call, the doctor isn't arrested and sent to prison. In this case, if the officers had a valid warrant, acted properly, and were fired upon, they were well within their rights to return fire. Just like Taylor's boyfriend was within his rights to open fire on people who he thought could be home invaders.

I think the answer is to reduce the frequency of no-knock raids. Unless you are taking down a kingpin, take them off the table for drug crimes. If you have a warrant and the suspect is able to flush drugs and evidence before you can arrest him/her, oh well. Better luck next time. That's better than putting civilians and officers in harms way.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:00 pm

N583JB wrote:
In this case, if the officers had a valid warrant, acted properly, and were fired upon, they were well within their rights to return fire. Just like Taylor's boyfriend was within his rights to open fire on people who he thought could be home invaders.

The problem here is that in this case, the officers didn't have a valid warrant, and KY, which has a castle doctrine law in its books, allowed Taylor's boyfriend to open fire on an unannounced intruder, even if it was the police. However, they're trying to spin this by trying to say that even though the officers didn't have a warrant, they still did a good job in taking out someone who potentially was involved in criminal activity (saying that Breonna has drugs in her place, even though the cops had the wrong domicile) as well as insist that police are victims of mistreatment by civilians (evidence by Taylor's boyfriend shooting at them).

This reminds me a lot of the whole "Support our troops" mantra in which any action (good or bad) by US troops was unquestionable and to doubt them was to be unpatriotic.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:41 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
N583JB wrote:
In this case, if the officers had a valid warrant, acted properly, and were fired upon, they were well within their rights to return fire. Just like Taylor's boyfriend was within his rights to open fire on people who he thought could be home invaders.

The problem here is that in this case, the officers didn't have a valid warrant, and KY, which has a castle doctrine law in its books, allowed Taylor's boyfriend to open fire on an unannounced intruder, even if it was the police. However, they're trying to spin this by trying to say that even though the officers didn't have a warrant, they still did a good job in taking out someone who potentially was involved in criminal activity (saying that Breonna has drugs in her place, even though the cops had the wrong domicile) as well as insist that police are victims of mistreatment by civilians (evidence by Taylor's boyfriend shooting at them).

This reminds me a lot of the whole "Support our troops" mantra in which any action (good or bad) by US troops was unquestionable and to doubt them was to be unpatriotic.


The officers did have a valid warrant, and it was not for the wrong address. Those are two common misconceptions about the case. The police were at the right place with a valid, signed warrant that gave them permission to enter. Indeed, USA Today's "Fact Check" has rated those claims as false:

Our ruling: False
We rate the claim that officers did not have a warrant to enter Taylor's apartment as FALSE because it is not supported by our research. Louisville police had a “no-knock” warrant to enter Taylor’s apartment. No-knock warrants have now been banned in Louisville.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 235029001/
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:46 pm

Announcement scheduled for 1:30 pm EST today-

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 502148001/
 
FGITD
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:08 pm

N583JB wrote:
Kno wrote:
Kno wrote:
Breonna and her boyfriend did absolutely nothing wrong - including her boyfriend firing the first shot to defend the house against who knows what.

How do we hold police accountable for killing someone in a situation like this if there are no consequences?

Clearly this is no way to police and people have a right to be angry and terrified.


Sometimes bad things happen but no laws are broken. Case and point, a doctor misdiagnoses a patient and the patient dies as a result. If the doctor was acting in good faith and within the scope of his/her training, and simply had to make a call and made the wrong call, the doctor isn't arrested and sent to prison. In this case, if the officers had a valid warrant, acted properly, and were fired upon, they were well within their rights to return fire. Just like Taylor's boyfriend was within his rights to open fire on people who he thought could be home invaders.

I think the answer is to reduce the frequency of no-knock raids. Unless you are taking down a kingpin, take them off the table for drug crimes. If you have a warrant and the suspect is able to flush drugs and evidence before you can arrest him/her, oh well. Better luck next time. That's better than putting civilians and officers in harms way.


Unfortunately for all involved, I think this is the deciding factor. The police were within their rights, and the boyfriend was within his rights. There's a systematic issue at play in that the no knock warrant escalated the situation in all the ways that it shouldn't. For that reason, I think the right steps were taken in banning no knock warrants for such offences. And I agree with that caveat. If the amount of drugs or weapons (or whatever) can be "disappeared" in the time it takes to present the warrant/enter, then it definitely wasn't worth the effort. It's one thing if you're looking to bust a mountain of cocaine or a pile of guns, rather than a few Ziploc bags.

If one is at home and hears or sees what appears to be an armed intruder, then it's reasonable to protect oneself. Likewise, if an officer comes under fire, it's reasonable to return fire.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Kno wrote:
Breonna and her boyfriend did absolutely nothing wrong - including her boyfriend firing the first shot to defend the house against who knows what.

How do we hold police accountable for killing someone in a situation like this if there are no consequences?

Clearly this is no way to police and people have a right to be angry and terrified.


well, it is a great why for organized crime to get the perfect hit job done .. just pay a dirty cop to break into the wrong house to make an arrest, and shoot to collect their pay. Will get away with it too. Would be interesting to investigate how often that does happen...

I guess there is a need for fully automatic weapons for citizens after all, since you may need to mow down a whole SWAT team before they murder you and your innocent loved ones "by accident". High capacity clips too.... i do however have the feeling they will find something to charge you with.

best regards
Thomas


Actually that did happen in NYC during the 1980's and 90's . The cops didn't get away with it tho ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_C ... activities.
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:24 pm

Officer Hankinson has been charged with three counts of wanton endangerment. A warrant has been issued and bond has been set at $15,000. No other charges will be filed. A lot of people are going to be unhappy about the lack of substantial charges, but I think it was the right decision based on the info we have so far and the statements I made earlier in this thread.
 
Dogman
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:24 pm

FGITD wrote:
If one is at home and hears or sees what appears to be an armed intruder, then it's reasonable to protect oneself. Likewise, if an officer comes under fire, it's reasonable to return fire.


No, it's not reasonable to return fire if you do not see whom are you shooting at. Especially if there is a high chance that other civilians may get hit. After her boyfriend fired the shot the police should had immediately withdraw, surround the building if they haven't done it already, and start talking to them. Blindly shooting through the doors, windows, and walls is a criminal negligence.
 
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mbmbos
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:58 pm

N583JB wrote:
Officer Hankinson has been charged with three counts of wanton endangerment. A warrant has been issued and bond has been set at $15,000. No other charges will be filed. A lot of people are going to be unhappy about the lack of substantial charges, but I think it was the right decision based on the info we have so far and the statements I made earlier in this thread.


One officer is charged with "wanton endangerment" by shooting where there were other tenants. No one was charged with the death of Breonna Taylor. They used a battering ram to enter her apartment even though she wasn't a suspect - her former boyfriend was. They were in her apartment for 8 minutes before opening fire. They let her bleed out for 8 minutes without calling paramedics. At most this officer will be charged with 1 - 5 years in jail. But, "my bad," I shot an unarmed black woman.

But you think it was the right decision.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
ltbewr
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:59 pm

With the results of the county/state Grand Jury a disappointment to many, I expect there will be demands for a Federal Grand Jury to consider Federal civil rights charges.
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:00 pm

mbmbos wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Officer Hankinson has been charged with three counts of wanton endangerment. A warrant has been issued and bond has been set at $15,000. No other charges will be filed. A lot of people are going to be unhappy about the lack of substantial charges, but I think it was the right decision based on the info we have so far and the statements I made earlier in this thread.


One officer is charged with "wanton endangerment" by shooting where there were other tenants. No one was charged with the death of Breonna Taylor. They used a battering ram to enter her apartment even though she wasn't a suspect - her former boyfriend was. They were in her apartment for 8 minutes before opening fire. They let her bleed out for 8 minutes without calling paramedics. At most this officer will be charged with 1 - 5 years in jail. But, "my bad," I shot an unarmed black woman.

But you think it was the right decision.


That's simply untrue. One officer entered the apartment and was shot the second he walked inside. The others immediately returned fire.
 
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mbmbos
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:18 pm

N583JB wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Officer Hankinson has been charged with three counts of wanton endangerment. A warrant has been issued and bond has been set at $15,000. No other charges will be filed. A lot of people are going to be unhappy about the lack of substantial charges, but I think it was the right decision based on the info we have so far and the statements I made earlier in this thread.


One officer is charged with "wanton endangerment" by shooting where there were other tenants. No one was charged with the death of Breonna Taylor. They used a battering ram to enter her apartment even though she wasn't a suspect - her former boyfriend was. They were in her apartment for 8 minutes before opening fire. They let her bleed out for 8 minutes without calling paramedics. At most this officer will be charged with 1 - 5 years in jail. But, "my bad," I shot an unarmed black woman.

But you think it was the right decision.


That's simply untrue. One officer entered the apartment and was shot the second he walked inside. The others immediately returned fire.


Not true? According to police reports?
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:21 pm

mbmbos wrote:
N583JB wrote:
mbmbos wrote:

One officer is charged with "wanton endangerment" by shooting where there were other tenants. No one was charged with the death of Breonna Taylor. They used a battering ram to enter her apartment even though she wasn't a suspect - her former boyfriend was. They were in her apartment for 8 minutes before opening fire. They let her bleed out for 8 minutes without calling paramedics. At most this officer will be charged with 1 - 5 years in jail. But, "my bad," I shot an unarmed black woman.

But you think it was the right decision.


That's simply untrue. One officer entered the apartment and was shot the second he walked inside. The others immediately returned fire.


Not true? According to police reports?


Yes, not true. I've watched the entire Kentucky AG's press conference so far (it is still ongoing). He laid out exactly what happened. The officers had a knock-and-announce warrant. They knocked, announced, and received no answer. They forced the door and the first officer through the door was immediately shot in the leg. He, and the other officers, returned fire. This all happened in a matter of seconds. Your claim that they were "in her apartment for 8 minutes before opening fire" is completely false.
 
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mbmbos
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:25 pm

N583JB wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
N583JB wrote:

That's simply untrue. One officer entered the apartment and was shot the second he walked inside. The others immediately returned fire.


Not true? According to police reports?


Yes, not true. I've watched the entire Kentucky AG's press conference so far (it is still ongoing). He laid out exactly what happened. The officers had a knock-and-announce warrant. They knocked, announced, and received no answer. They forced the door and the first officer through the door was immediately shot in the leg. He, and the other officers, returned fire. This all happened in a matter of seconds. Your claim that they were "in her apartment for 8 minutes before opening fire" is completely false.


...according to police.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:37 pm

mbmbos wrote:
N583JB wrote:
mbmbos wrote:

Not true? According to police reports?


Yes, not true. I've watched the entire Kentucky AG's press conference so far (it is still ongoing). He laid out exactly what happened. The officers had a knock-and-announce warrant. They knocked, announced, and received no answer. They forced the door and the first officer through the door was immediately shot in the leg. He, and the other officers, returned fire. This all happened in a matter of seconds. Your claim that they were "in her apartment for 8 minutes before opening fire" is completely false.


...according to police.


What is your evidence to the contrary? I'm sure everyone would love to see it.
 
Newark727
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:41 pm

N583JB wrote:
Sometimes bad things happen but no laws are broken. Case and point, a doctor misdiagnoses a patient and the patient dies as a result. If the doctor was acting in good faith and within the scope of his/her training, and simply had to make a call and made the wrong call, the doctor isn't arrested and sent to prison. In this case, if the officers had a valid warrant, acted properly, and were fired upon, they were well within their rights to return fire. Just like Taylor's boyfriend was within his rights to open fire on people who he thought could be home invaders.

I think the answer is to reduce the frequency of no-knock raids. Unless you are taking down a kingpin, take them off the table for drug crimes. If you have a warrant and the suspect is able to flush drugs and evidence before you can arrest him/her, oh well. Better luck next time. That's better than putting civilians and officers in harms way.


If two parties are both acting within the law, and someone still ends up dead, it sounds to me like there may be a problem with the law.
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:47 pm

Newark727 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Sometimes bad things happen but no laws are broken. Case and point, a doctor misdiagnoses a patient and the patient dies as a result. If the doctor was acting in good faith and within the scope of his/her training, and simply had to make a call and made the wrong call, the doctor isn't arrested and sent to prison. In this case, if the officers had a valid warrant, acted properly, and were fired upon, they were well within their rights to return fire. Just like Taylor's boyfriend was within his rights to open fire on people who he thought could be home invaders.

I think the answer is to reduce the frequency of no-knock raids. Unless you are taking down a kingpin, take them off the table for drug crimes. If you have a warrant and the suspect is able to flush drugs and evidence before you can arrest him/her, oh well. Better luck next time. That's better than putting civilians and officers in harms way.


If two parties are both acting within the law, and someone still ends up dead, it sounds to me like there may be a problem with the law.


Not necessarily. There is always going to be gray area. You can't make enough laws to get rid of it.
 
Newark727
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:52 pm

N583JB wrote:
Not necessarily. There is always going to be gray area. You can't make enough laws to get rid of it.


This gray area seems entirely avoidable, though. Even relatively minor changes to how "castle doctrine" is constructed, or how the law governs police behavior during no-knock raids (I agree that there should be a lot less of them in any case) could help.
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:57 pm

Newark727 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Not necessarily. There is always going to be gray area. You can't make enough laws to get rid of it.


This gray area seems entirely avoidable, though. Even relatively minor changes to how "castle doctrine" is constructed, or how the law governs police behavior during no-knock raids (I agree that there should be a lot less of them in any case) could help.


So would you rather eliminate the right of a homeowner to defend themselves from an incursion, or eliminate the right of police officers to defend themselves after they are fired upon? Those would be the two options.
 
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mbmbos
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:57 pm

N583JB wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
N583JB wrote:

Yes, not true. I've watched the entire Kentucky AG's press conference so far (it is still ongoing). He laid out exactly what happened. The officers had a knock-and-announce warrant. They knocked, announced, and received no answer. They forced the door and the first officer through the door was immediately shot in the leg. He, and the other officers, returned fire. This all happened in a matter of seconds. Your claim that they were "in her apartment for 8 minutes before opening fire" is completely false.


...according to police.


What is your evidence to the contrary? I'm sure everyone would love to see it.



If the city of Louisville would actually hold an open and honest investigation, then we would see all evidence, not just the word of three police officers, one of whom shot and killed Breonna.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
Newark727
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:00 pm

N583JB wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Not necessarily. There is always going to be gray area. You can't make enough laws to get rid of it.


This gray area seems entirely avoidable, though. Even relatively minor changes to how "castle doctrine" is constructed, or how the law governs police behavior during no-knock raids (I agree that there should be a lot less of them in any case) could help.


So would you rather eliminate the right of a homeowner to defend themselves from an incursion, or eliminate the right of police officers to defend themselves after they are fired upon? Those would be the two options.


I don't think it's necessary to "eliminate" anything. But policing needs to be held to a higher standard than the one that allowed this raid to go down as it did, and if that means changing the law, then fine.
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:01 pm

mbmbos wrote:
N583JB wrote:
mbmbos wrote:

...according to police.


What is your evidence to the contrary? I'm sure everyone would love to see it.



If the city of Louisville would actually hold an open and honest investigation, then we would see all evidence, not just the word of three police officers, one of whom shot and killed Breonna.


They spent over 190 days investigating, and interviewed a number of witnesses. But by all means, please provide us with evidence to back up your earlier claims. If not, please stop spamming this board with lies meant to inflame.
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:03 pm

Newark727 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Newark727 wrote:

This gray area seems entirely avoidable, though. Even relatively minor changes to how "castle doctrine" is constructed, or how the law governs police behavior during no-knock raids (I agree that there should be a lot less of them in any case) could help.


So would you rather eliminate the right of a homeowner to defend themselves from an incursion, or eliminate the right of police officers to defend themselves after they are fired upon? Those would be the two options.


I don't think it's necessary to "eliminate" anything. But policing needs to be held to a higher standard than the one that allowed this raid to go down as it did, and if that means changing the law, then fine.


What higher standard would there be? Perfection or prison? Those can't be the only options.
 
maverick4002
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:08 pm

N583JB wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
N583JB wrote:

That's simply untrue. One officer entered the apartment and was shot the second he walked inside. The others immediately returned fire.


Not true? According to police reports?


Yes, not true. I've watched the entire Kentucky AG's press conference so far (it is still ongoing). He laid out exactly what happened. The officers had a knock-and-announce warrant. They knocked, announced, and received no answer. They forced the door and the first officer through the door was immediately shot in the leg. He, and the other officers, returned fire. This all happened in a matter of seconds. Your claim that they were "in her apartment for 8 minutes before opening fire" is completely false.


Here you area again, showing exactly who you are. Just another day that ends in Y. Jumping through all these hoops to make excuses. Your brain must be in tip top shape with all the mental gymnastics it goes through.

Let's believe the report of the cops, the cops who murdered this woman. The cops who also happened to have no body cams working / on at the time. Give me a break
 
Newark727
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:09 pm

N583JB wrote:
What higher standard would there be? Perfection or prison? Those can't be the only options.


Getting the right house would be a good start!
Last edited by Newark727 on Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:11 pm

Newark727 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
What higher standard would there be? Perfection or prison? Those can't be the only options.


Getting the right house would be a good start!


They were at the right house.
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:11 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
mbmbos wrote:

Not true? According to police reports?


Yes, not true. I've watched the entire Kentucky AG's press conference so far (it is still ongoing). He laid out exactly what happened. The officers had a knock-and-announce warrant. They knocked, announced, and received no answer. They forced the door and the first officer through the door was immediately shot in the leg. He, and the other officers, returned fire. This all happened in a matter of seconds. Your claim that they were "in her apartment for 8 minutes before opening fire" is completely false.


Here you area again, showing exactly who you are. Just another day that ends in Y. Jumping through all these hoops to make excuses. Your brain must be in tip top shape with all the mental gymnastics it goes through.

Let's believe the report of the cops, the cops who murdered this woman. The cops who also happened to have no body cams working / on at the time. Give me a break


You are right, we must immediately convict based only on angry statements posted to Twitter and Facebook. After all, what court of law needs actual evidence in order to make a decision?
 
Newark727
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:17 pm

N583JB wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
What higher standard would there be? Perfection or prison? Those can't be the only options.


Getting the right house would be a good start!


They were at the right house.


Apologies, I misread the quote chain there. Was about to catch it when you replied. But the point is, I'm not demanding perfection, I'm demanding basic competence in police work. If it takes bad cops going to jail to make that happen? That sounds like their problem not mine.
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:19 pm

Newark727 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Newark727 wrote:

Getting the right house would be a good start!


They were at the right house.


Apologies, I misread the quote chain there. Was about to catch it when you replied. But the point is, I'm not demanding perfection, I'm demanding basic competence in police work. If it takes bad cops going to jail to make that happen? That sounds like their problem not mine.


What crime would you charge these officers with? Returning fire after being fired upon?
 
N583JB
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:53 am

Rioting occurring right now in Louisville. At least one police officer has been shot by rioters. Another false narrative and more bloodshed. When will the media and those spreading these lies be held accountable?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:55 am

I don't agree with the grand jury decision but rioting isn't going to help anything. Cops like to call themselves professionals but they never care to accept the consequences like a professional when they screw up. They all deserve the needle for killing Taylor.
 
N583JB
Topic Author
Posts: 926
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Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:58 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't agree with the grand jury decision but rioting isn't going to help anything. Cops like to call themselves professionals but they never care to accept the consequences like a professional when they screw up. They all deserve the needle for killing Taylor.


They should be executed for returning fire after one of them was shot and nearly killed serving a valid warrant?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:01 am

N583JB wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't agree with the grand jury decision but rioting isn't going to help anything. Cops like to call themselves professionals but they never care to accept the consequences like a professional when they screw up. They all deserve the needle for killing Taylor.


They should be executed for returning fire after one of them was shot and nearly killed serving a valid warrant?


Yes. They killed an innocent person who had no part in the crime whatsoever. Same for the cops who shot the UPS driver in Miami earlier this year during a shootout in the road. The UPS driver was just sitting a red light when his life was taken with no justification. Police officers should not have the right to make matters worse. But it seems they don't give one thought to innocent bystanders.
 
N583JB
Topic Author
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:04 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
N583JB wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't agree with the grand jury decision but rioting isn't going to help anything. Cops like to call themselves professionals but they never care to accept the consequences like a professional when they screw up. They all deserve the needle for killing Taylor.


They should be executed for returning fire after one of them was shot and nearly killed serving a valid warrant?


Yes. They killed an innocent person who had no part in the crime whatsoever. Same for the cops who shot the UPS driver in Miami earlier this year during a shootout in the road. The UPS driver was just sitting a red light when his life was taken with no justification. Police officers should not have the right to make matters worse. But it seems they don't give one thought to innocent bystanders.


Interesting. What other professionals do you think should face execution for making a mistake in a split-second decision? Execute surgeons if their patient dies on the table? Execute pilots if a passenger dies on a flight? Execute fighter pilots if their bomb kills a civilian?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:08 am

N583JB wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
N583JB wrote:

They should be executed for returning fire after one of them was shot and nearly killed serving a valid warrant?


Yes. They killed an innocent person who had no part in the crime whatsoever. Same for the cops who shot the UPS driver in Miami earlier this year during a shootout in the road. The UPS driver was just sitting a red light when his life was taken with no justification. Police officers should not have the right to make matters worse. But it seems they don't give one thought to innocent bystanders.


Interesting. What other professionals do you think should face execution for making a mistake in a split-second decision? Execute surgeons if their patient dies on the table? Execute pilots if a passenger dies on a flight? Execute fighter pilots if their bomb kills a civilian?


How about comparing cops to a similar profession? Like a US soldier. There are serious and swift consequences for a soldier that does not follow protocol or fires upon non-enemies. The military does not take willful disregard for life lightly.
 
N583JB
Topic Author
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:10 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
N583JB wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Yes. They killed an innocent person who had no part in the crime whatsoever. Same for the cops who shot the UPS driver in Miami earlier this year during a shootout in the road. The UPS driver was just sitting a red light when his life was taken with no justification. Police officers should not have the right to make matters worse. But it seems they don't give one thought to innocent bystanders.


Interesting. What other professionals do you think should face execution for making a mistake in a split-second decision? Execute surgeons if their patient dies on the table? Execute pilots if a passenger dies on a flight? Execute fighter pilots if their bomb kills a civilian?


How about comparing cops to a similar profession? Like a US soldier. There are serious and swift consequences for a soldier that does not follow protocol or fires upon non-enemies. The military does not take willful disregard for life lightly.


Is that why we killed tens of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan? So tell me, how many Air Force and Navy pilots do you want to be executed? How many soldiers do you want to be executed? Thousands, right? Those civilians didn't kill themselves. After all, it isn't enough to get shot at....you want someone to be killed if they miss.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2121
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:15 am

N583JB wrote:
What crime would you charge these officers with? Returning fire after being fired upon?


Look, it doesn't seem like too much to ask for officers returning fire when fired upon, to actually hit the person firing at them and not an innocent woman sleeping in the next room. Seems like it would be worth at least a manslaughter charge.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:17 am

N583JB wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
N583JB wrote:

Interesting. What other professionals do you think should face execution for making a mistake in a split-second decision? Execute surgeons if their patient dies on the table? Execute pilots if a passenger dies on a flight? Execute fighter pilots if their bomb kills a civilian?


How about comparing cops to a similar profession? Like a US soldier. There are serious and swift consequences for a soldier that does not follow protocol or fires upon non-enemies. The military does not take willful disregard for life lightly.


Is that why we killed tens of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan? So tell me, how many Air Force and Navy pilots do you want to be executed? How many soldiers do you want to be executed? Thousands, right? Those civilians didn't kill themselves. After all, it isn't enough to get shot at....you want someone to be killed if they miss.


Oh come on. In those missions civilian casualties were well known and planned. I'm talking about soldiers that went around raping or murdering locals just because they thought they could.

I'm a conservative but I don't get the fetish for the police. When they do something wrong they should face the consequences. Are you going to demand that Louisiana take one of their former cops off of death row?

But what's worse is these cops feel no remorse for what they did. Even a cold-blooded murderer will sometimes ask for forgiveness. It says a lot about cops that they never do.
 
N583JB
Topic Author
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:19 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
N583JB wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

How about comparing cops to a similar profession? Like a US soldier. There are serious and swift consequences for a soldier that does not follow protocol or fires upon non-enemies. The military does not take willful disregard for life lightly.


Is that why we killed tens of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan? So tell me, how many Air Force and Navy pilots do you want to be executed? How many soldiers do you want to be executed? Thousands, right? Those civilians didn't kill themselves. After all, it isn't enough to get shot at....you want someone to be killed if they miss.


Oh come on. In those missions civilian casualties were well known and planned. I'm talking about soldiers that went around raping or murdering locals just because they thought they could.

I'm a conservative but I don't get the fetish for the police. When they do something wrong they should face the consequences. Are you going to demand that Louisiana take one of their former cops off of death row?

But what's worse is these cops feel no remorse for what they did. Even a cold-blooded murderer will sometimes ask for forgiveness. It says a lot about cops that they never do.


The civilian casualties were known and planned? That just makes it worse. So, you are OK with the military killing civilians, but you want to literally execute police officers for returning fire after one of their own was shot and nearly killed while performing a lawful action?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:23 am

N583JB wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
N583JB wrote:

Is that why we killed tens of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan? So tell me, how many Air Force and Navy pilots do you want to be executed? How many soldiers do you want to be executed? Thousands, right? Those civilians didn't kill themselves. After all, it isn't enough to get shot at....you want someone to be killed if they miss.


Oh come on. In those missions civilian casualties were well known and planned. I'm talking about soldiers that went around raping or murdering locals just because they thought they could.

I'm a conservative but I don't get the fetish for the police. When they do something wrong they should face the consequences. Are you going to demand that Louisiana take one of their former cops off of death row?

But what's worse is these cops feel no remorse for what they did. Even a cold-blooded murderer will sometimes ask for forgiveness. It says a lot about cops that they never do.


The civilian casualties were known and planned? That just makes it worse. So, you are OK with the military killing civilians, but you want to literally execute police officers for returning fire after one of their own was shot and nearly killed while performing a lawful action?


Yeah that's kind of how a war goes. Soldiers follow orders from superiors. Of they deviate from those orders then there are severe consequences. Surely you are aware that our military has executed soldiers who went against orders? Police officers are rarely ever punished for misconduct.
 
N583JB
Topic Author
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:24 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
N583JB wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Oh come on. In those missions civilian casualties were well known and planned. I'm talking about soldiers that went around raping or murdering locals just because they thought they could.

I'm a conservative but I don't get the fetish for the police. When they do something wrong they should face the consequences. Are you going to demand that Louisiana take one of their former cops off of death row?

But what's worse is these cops feel no remorse for what they did. Even a cold-blooded murderer will sometimes ask for forgiveness. It says a lot about cops that they never do.


The civilian casualties were known and planned? That just makes it worse. So, you are OK with the military killing civilians, but you want to literally execute police officers for returning fire after one of their own was shot and nearly killed while performing a lawful action?


Yeah that's kind of how a war goes. Soldiers follow orders from superiors. Of they deviate from those orders then there are severe consequences. Surely you are aware that our military has executed soldiers who went against orders? Police officers are rarely ever punished for misconduct.


And these officers were following orders from superiors. They did not deviate, and they did not break the law. Yet you want to murder them, and at the same time you make excuses for the people who killed tens of thousands of civilians overseas. Seems to me that you just have an anti-law enforcement bend.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:31 am

N583JB wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
N583JB wrote:

The civilian casualties were known and planned? That just makes it worse. So, you are OK with the military killing civilians, but you want to literally execute police officers for returning fire after one of their own was shot and nearly killed while performing a lawful action?


Yeah that's kind of how a war goes. Soldiers follow orders from superiors. Of they deviate from those orders then there are severe consequences. Surely you are aware that our military has executed soldiers who went against orders? Police officers are rarely ever punished for misconduct.


And these officers were following orders from superiors. They did not deviate, and they did not break the law. Yet you want to murder them, and at the same time you make excuses for the people who killed tens of thousands of civilians overseas. Seems to me that you just have an anti-law enforcement bend.


Can provide a copy of the warrant where it says they can kill innocent people in the process? And why are you ok with the lack of body cameras? Do you think a cop is incapable of lying?
 
N583JB
Topic Author
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:34 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
N583JB wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Yeah that's kind of how a war goes. Soldiers follow orders from superiors. Of they deviate from those orders then there are severe consequences. Surely you are aware that our military has executed soldiers who went against orders? Police officers are rarely ever punished for misconduct.


And these officers were following orders from superiors. They did not deviate, and they did not break the law. Yet you want to murder them, and at the same time you make excuses for the people who killed tens of thousands of civilians overseas. Seems to me that you just have an anti-law enforcement bend.


Can provide a copy of the warrant where it says they can kill innocent people in the process? And why are you ok with the lack of body cameras? Do you think a cop is incapable of lying?


I've never claimed that such a warrant exists. Can you provide a copy of the law that says it is OK to execute people who have not been found guilty of a crime? Because that is exactly what you are advocating....as long as the people being executed are wearing the right uniform. Just to be clear, you are stating that you have no problem with the military killing civilians, but if a cop opens fire after being shot and nearly killed and misses his target, you want that cop to be executed even if he was found to have committed no crime. Chilling.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2121
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:49 am

N583JB wrote:
It does kind of exonerate the police for hitting the wrong person, though. It is much more understandable to hit a target a few inches away from the one you are aiming at, after you have just been shot at, than it is to hit a target 20 feet away in a completely different room. The standard cannot be, "you must hit a bullseye under duress or the state will kill you", as the other poster seems to be advocating.


I'm not advocating the state killing lousy cops, I'm very ambivalent about the death penalty in general. However, if we're granting police officers greater power under the law, it also needs to come with a measure of greater responsibility, including for accidents. Right now, if anything, it seems harder to hold a police officer accountable for a wrongful death than a private citizen. As long as that continues, we'll be dealing with the protests, including the few that become violent, every couple of years.

But back to your main point, it's hard to see Taylor and her boyfriend really standing "a few inches" apart. At least, at the distances implied by an interior space, it should be possible to pick out one man-sized target from another, and if it's not, maybe reconsider getting into the situation to begin with if you've got a choice.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13033
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:21 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
N583JB wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Yes. They killed an innocent person who had no part in the crime whatsoever. Same for the cops who shot the UPS driver in Miami earlier this year during a shootout in the road. The UPS driver was just sitting a red light when his life was taken with no justification. Police officers should not have the right to make matters worse. But it seems they don't give one thought to innocent bystanders.


Interesting. What other professionals do you think should face execution for making a mistake in a split-second decision? Execute surgeons if their patient dies on the table? Execute pilots if a passenger dies on a flight? Execute fighter pilots if their bomb kills a civilian?


How about comparing cops to a similar profession? Like a US soldier. There are serious and swift consequences for a soldier that does not follow protocol or fires upon non-enemies. The military does not take willful disregard for life lightly.


Not if you're in the US Military, they hand out medals and pardon soldiers who commit these offenses.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13518
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:19 am

maverick4002 wrote:
The cops who also happened to have no body cams working / on at the time. Give me a break


Make a simple rule: turn your body cam off, and the burden of proof is reversed, as it implies intend.

But hey, clearing your browser history can lead to felony charges for obstruction of justice.... :banghead:

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
N583JB
Topic Author
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Louisville prepares for Breonna Taylor decision

Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:53 am

Newark727 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
It does kind of exonerate the police for hitting the wrong person, though. It is much more understandable to hit a target a few inches away from the one you are aiming at, after you have just been shot at, than it is to hit a target 20 feet away in a completely different room. The standard cannot be, "you must hit a bullseye under duress or the state will kill you", as the other poster seems to be advocating.


I'm not advocating the state killing lousy cops, I'm very ambivalent about the death penalty in general. However, if we're granting police officers greater power under the law, it also needs to come with a measure of greater responsibility, including for accidents. Right now, if anything, it seems harder to hold a police officer accountable for a wrongful death than a private citizen. As long as that continues, we'll be dealing with the protests, including the few that become violent, every couple of years.

But back to your main point, it's hard to see Taylor and her boyfriend really standing "a few inches" apart. At least, at the distances implied by an interior space, it should be possible to pick out one man-sized target from another, and if it's not, maybe reconsider getting into the situation to begin with if you've got a choice.


Unless they lived in the Biltmore, both of them standing in a narrow hallway would mean that they could not have been more than a few inches apart, side to side. Also, when you have just been shot and nearly killed, you don't have the time to line up a sniper shot from a handgun while you are trying to retreat.

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