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Revelation
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California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:36 pm

Pretty much as the title says:

California will ban the sale of new gasoline powered passenger cars and trucks starting in 2035 in a dramatic move to shift to electric vehicles and reduce greenhouse gas emissions, Governor Gavin Newsom said on Wednesday.

“This is the most impactful step our state can take to fight climate change,” Newsom said in a statement announcing his executive order. “For too many decades, we have allowed cars to pollute the air that our children and families breathe. You deserve to have a car that doesn’t give your kids asthma... Cars shouldn’t melt glaciers or raise sea levels threatening our cherished beaches and coastlines.

California is the largest U.S. auto market, accounting for about 11% of all U.S. vehicle sales, and many states choose to adopt its green vehicle mandates.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-auto ... 0001cefa4f

This is a bit heavy handed since I think it is inevitable and will happen sooner than 15 years on its own.

Note that the sales of gasoline and/or used cars with gasoline engines is not being banned.

Next up, since he can't ban guns, he should restrict the importation of bullets.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:49 pm

So they're doing what the Brits are doing

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51366123
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:58 pm

When will they ban diesel powered train and install power lines for the trains? I think that's comparatively easier
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
Pretty much as the title says:

California will ban the sale of new gasoline powered passenger cars and trucks starting in 2035 in a dramatic move to shift to electric vehicles and reduce greenhouse gas emissions, Governor Gavin Newsom said on Wednesday.

“This is the most impactful step our state can take to fight climate change,” Newsom said in a statement announcing his executive order. “For too many decades, we have allowed cars to pollute the air that our children and families breathe. You deserve to have a car that doesn’t give your kids asthma... Cars shouldn’t melt glaciers or raise sea levels threatening our cherished beaches and coastlines.

California is the largest U.S. auto market, accounting for about 11% of all U.S. vehicle sales, and many states choose to adopt its green vehicle mandates.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-auto ... 0001cefa4f

This is a bit heavy handed since I think it is inevitable and will happen sooner than 15 years on its own.

Note that the sales of gasoline and/or used cars with gasoline engines is not being banned.

Next up, since he can't ban guns, he should restrict the importation of bullets.



15 years out..... I wouldn't hold by breath on this one holding up. I would imagine there will be far less demand for Gas powered cars by then, but i don't think it will be zero.

If Musk pulls off the 25000 dollar car, then it could happen though.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesl ... elon-musk/
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TTailedTiger
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:22 pm

So the celebrities and ultra wealthy resident in California won't be able to buy a new Bentley, Land Rover, Lamborghini, etc? I don't think so. This is dead in the water and will just be another reason to chase out the extremists running the state.
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:38 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
So the celebrities and ultra wealthy resident in California won't be able to buy a new Bentley, Land Rover, Lamborghini, etc? I don't think so. This is dead in the water and will just be another reason to chase out the extremists running the state.


All those brands are developing EVs, with hybrids on the immediate horizon. 15 years is a timescale even longer than a Land Rover product cycle, so it seems a reaosnable aspiration.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:50 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
So the celebrities and ultra wealthy resident in California won't be able to buy a new Bentley, Land Rover, Lamborghini, etc? I don't think so. This is dead in the water and will just be another reason to chase out the extremists running the state.


All those brands are developing EVs, with hybrids on the immediate horizon. 15 years is a timescale even longer than a Land Rover product cycle, so it seems a reaosnable aspiration.


People who buy high-end and super luxury cars think of them as more than appliances. They want to feel and hear the machine.
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:56 pm

c933103 wrote:
When will they ban diesel powered train and install power lines for the trains? I think that's comparatively easier


Have you looked at a map of how large California is? It’s neither easy or cheap to electrify every freight train in the state - also impractical since lines go across state lines.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:59 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
So the celebrities and ultra wealthy resident in California won't be able to buy a new Bentley, Land Rover, Lamborghini, etc? I don't think so. This is dead in the water and will just be another reason to chase out the extremists running the state.


All those brands are developing EVs, with hybrids on the immediate horizon. 15 years is a timescale even longer than a Land Rover product cycle, so it seems a reaosnable aspiration.


People who buy high-end and super luxury cars think of them as more than appliances. They want to feel and hear the machine.


I'm not getting your argument. If petrol (gasoline) engines are banned, the brands will happily sell an EV version - people won't stop parading their wealth just because the engine has changed.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:01 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:

All those brands are developing EVs, with hybrids on the immediate horizon. 15 years is a timescale even longer than a Land Rover product cycle, so it seems a reaosnable aspiration.


People who buy high-end and super luxury cars think of them as more than appliances. They want to feel and hear the machine.


I'm not getting your argument. If petrol (gasoline) engines are banned, the brands will happily sell an EV version - people won't stop parading their wealth just because the engine has changed.


They will buy them in other states and just bring them in. Unless you can figure how to make an electric engine feel and sound like a V12 then you won't be selling anything in that category.
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:10 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
They will buy them in other states and just bring them in. Unless you can figure how to make an electric engine feel and sound like a V12 then you won't be selling anything in that category.


I'm not so sure about that. People kept buying cars through the downsizing in the 1970s, and they've kept buying them through the downsizing to turbos going on now. Luxury buyers have fickle tastes, and I don't really think the engine is going to be the hill most of them die on. The prospect of certain brands selling SUVs used to be unimaginable, and now you'd be insane not to sell one.

Myself, I want a V-12 that burns hydrogen. :duck:
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:14 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

People who buy high-end and super luxury cars think of them as more than appliances. They want to feel and hear the machine.


I'm not getting your argument. If petrol (gasoline) engines are banned, the brands will happily sell an EV version - people won't stop parading their wealth just because the engine has changed.


They will buy them in other states and just bring them in. Unless you can figure how to make an electric engine feel and sound like a V12 then you won't be selling anything in that category.


It still remains to be seen whether the Lambo V12 survives the next 3 years, let alone the next 15.

I'm currently looking in the Range Rover part of the market, but an ICE engine seems a very poor buy at the moment with the march of EV. My country doesn't have any specific EV targets, but it is clearly where the market is heading. Another step change in batteries and ICE is (mostly) iced.

I've been a car guy my whole life, and do actually attend motor racing. But I can see the value in the CA move.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:16 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

People who buy high-end and super luxury cars think of them as more than appliances. They want to feel and hear the machine.


I'm not getting your argument. If petrol (gasoline) engines are banned, the brands will happily sell an EV version - people won't stop parading their wealth just because the engine has changed.


They will buy them in other states and just bring them in. Unless you can figure how to make an electric engine feel and sound like a V12 then you won't be selling anything in that category.


None of the people I know in the market for such vehicles care about how they sound - they just want to be seen in them. These aren’t individuals saving for years for what they always wanted - the cost of a luxury vehicle is nothing to them. It’s like picking out a TV for you or I.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:18 pm

Bringing a new ICE car in from outside California will not be banned. Although by 2025 I suspect EVs will begin to be the cars of choice for most people.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:46 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:

I'm not getting your argument. If petrol (gasoline) engines are banned, the brands will happily sell an EV version - people won't stop parading their wealth just because the engine has changed.


They will buy them in other states and just bring them in. Unless you can figure how to make an electric engine feel and sound like a V12 then you won't be selling anything in that category.


None of the people I know in the market for such vehicles care about how they sound - they just want to be seen in them. These aren’t individuals saving for years for what they always wanted - the cost of a luxury vehicle is nothing to them. It’s like picking out a TV for you or I.


I took a look at the X5 hybrid but the lower HP and not having certain options available on it turned me off. If they can make a hybrid or electric with 500 hp and the higher end options available then I would give it seriousl consideration. But I will not settle for something less.
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:50 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

They will buy them in other states and just bring them in. Unless you can figure how to make an electric engine feel and sound like a V12 then you won't be selling anything in that category.


None of the people I know in the market for such vehicles care about how they sound - they just want to be seen in them. These aren’t individuals saving for years for what they always wanted - the cost of a luxury vehicle is nothing to them. It’s like picking out a TV for you or I.


I took a look at the X5 hybrid but the lower HP and not having certain options available on it turned me off. If they can make a hybrid or electric with 500 hp and the higher end options available then I would give it seriousl consideration. But I will not settle for something less.


So you generalized based on your own preferences? Color me surprised.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:52 pm

I don't understand why this is a big deal. Good on California. If at that time people want a traditional vehicle they can buy it in another state, bring it in, and pay California some sweet sweet taxes.

TTailedTiger wrote:
They will buy them in other states and just bring them in. Unless you can figure how to make an electric engine feel and sound like a V12 then you won't be selling anything in that category.


They might reconsider when they get absolutely smoked by a Roadster or even the new Model S Plaid that was announced last night.

Gas power. cute.
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:10 am

Even by then, too many are in circumstances, locations and needs that pure EV's are not practical. EV's are not good in very cold or very hot weather, many don't live where can hook up to electricity to charge their vehicles. I also suspect that carmakers will be very reluctant to only be able to sell only EV's in one state by that time.
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:14 am

Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

None of the people I know in the market for such vehicles care about how they sound - they just want to be seen in them. These aren’t individuals saving for years for what they always wanted - the cost of a luxury vehicle is nothing to them. It’s like picking out a TV for you or I.


I took a look at the X5 hybrid but the lower HP and not having certain options available on it turned me off. If they can make a hybrid or electric with 500 hp and the higher end options available then I would give it seriousl consideration. But I will not settle for something less.


So you generalized based on your own preferences? Color me surprised.


Why wouldn't my personal experience have any weight in my opinion?
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:28 am

c933103 wrote:
When will they ban diesel powered train and install power lines for the trains? I think that's comparatively easier


Diesel electric trains are by far the most efficient method of land transport we have today. You want to solve vehicular pollution, push for more and more intermodal yards all over this country, to minimize the distance that containers are trucked.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:00 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I took a look at the X5 hybrid but the lower HP and not having certain options available on it turned me off. If they can make a hybrid or electric with 500 hp and the higher end options available then I would give it seriousl consideration. But I will not settle for something less.


So you generalized based on your own preferences? Color me surprised.


Why wouldn't my personal experience have any weight in my opinion?


Not discounting them for you personally.

But you're not the whole market. Once more brands are offering proper EVs without real range limitations, that's where things will go. Hopefully the styling and build is better than Tesla too.

Slightly OT - my jurisdiction bans "high powered" vehicles for newly licenced drivers. All decent EVs and hybrids are in this list, so we may need to buy a second car for our son to drive. :(
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:06 am

Kent350787 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
So the celebrities and ultra wealthy resident in California won't be able to buy a new Bentley, Land Rover, Lamborghini, etc? I don't think so. This is dead in the water and will just be another reason to chase out the extremists running the state.


All those brands are developing EVs, with hybrids on the immediate horizon. 15 years is a timescale even longer than a Land Rover product cycle, so it seems a reaosnable aspiration.


The way the battery powered cars are created are disgusting. People are exploited who make them and the environment is being destroyed. All these types of cars should be banned as well. I made sure I got rid of my electric vehicle when I read about the human exploitation going on to make there cars. It is better not to own a car at all.
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:26 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I took a look at the X5 hybrid but the lower HP and not having certain options available on it turned me off. If they can make a hybrid or electric with 500 hp and the higher end options available then I would give it seriousl consideration. But I will not settle for something less.


So you generalized based on your own preferences? Color me surprised.


Why wouldn't my personal experience have any weight in my opinion?


You don’t speak for wealthy purchasers of cars everywhere, especially California.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:37 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

They will buy them in other states and just bring them in. Unless you can figure how to make an electric engine feel and sound like a V12 then you won't be selling anything in that category.


None of the people I know in the market for such vehicles care about how they sound - they just want to be seen in them. These aren’t individuals saving for years for what they always wanted - the cost of a luxury vehicle is nothing to them. It’s like picking out a TV for you or I.


I took a look at the X5 hybrid but the lower HP and not having certain options available on it turned me off. If they can make a hybrid or electric with 500 hp and the higher end options available then I would give it seriousl consideration. But I will not settle for something less.


X5 45e does 0-100 kph in 5.3 seconds and tops out at 235km/h. How much faster do you need to go on public roads? Are you driving at 200+km/h all the time?

That is more than adequate I think.

Pi7472000 wrote:
People are exploited who make them and the environment is being destroyed.


What's wrong with that? The environment shouldn't get in the way of progress if I'm not mistaken. That's the usual comments I hear when environmental protection is mentioned.
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:39 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
When will they ban diesel powered train and install power lines for the trains? I think that's comparatively easier


Have you looked at a map of how large California is? It’s neither easy or cheap to electrify every freight train in the state - also impractical since lines go across state lines.


how do state lines make that impractical? Elsewhere crossing border of nation states isn´t a problem after all...

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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:49 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
When will they ban diesel powered train and install power lines for the trains? I think that's comparatively easier


Have you looked at a map of how large California is? It’s neither easy or cheap to electrify every freight train in the state - also impractical since lines go across state lines.


how do state lines make that impractical? Elsewhere crossing border of nation states isn´t a problem after all...

best regards
Thomas


Logistics doesn’t like delays. Switching loads from electric to conventional locomotives every time at the border was my thinking.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:51 am

Aaron747 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Have you looked at a map of how large California is? It’s neither easy or cheap to electrify every freight train in the state - also impractical since lines go across state lines.


how do state lines make that impractical? Elsewhere crossing border of nation states isn´t a problem after all...

best regards
Thomas


Logistics doesn’t like delays. Switching loads from electric to conventional locomotives every time at the border was my thinking.


Just keep running the overhead line....
Or use dual mode locomotives.

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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:54 am

Electrification of the U.S. rail network, as an idea, goes back a long way. The issue is that the country is real big, the railroads are real long, and it's therefore very expensive. There haven't been many cases where the numbers penciled out - portions of the PRR when it was very wealthy, the Virginian, a few mine-to-power-plant operations. All the rest were done when there was no other choice - tunnels too long to safely run steam engines or urban edicts against the smoke in New York City. Maybe if we really have to, but simply to cut carbon emissions there are still lower-hanging fruit.
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:56 am

Newark727 wrote:
Electrification of the U.S. rail network, as an idea, goes back a long way. The issue is that the country is real big, the railroads are real long, and it's therefore very expensive..


i do believe plenty of rail lines in the US are used at or close to capacity, which would make it relatively cheap. I think the only reason you don´t have, if it being a long time investment.....

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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:03 am

Aaron747 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Have you looked at a map of how large California is? It’s neither easy or cheap to electrify every freight train in the state - also impractical since lines go across state lines.


how do state lines make that impractical? Elsewhere crossing border of nation states isn´t a problem after all...

best regards
Thomas


Logistics doesn’t like delays. Switching loads from electric to conventional locomotives every time at the border was my thinking.

As far as I know, even after a train route have been electrified, it is still possible to run diesel train on the route, exception could probably be make for freight trains originating from or destinating for destination outside the state or repositioning trains.
But the thing is passenger train
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:16 am

A bit late, 2035, but sure. I read reports that by 2025 EV's are about equal in price, compared to fossil fuel-powered ones. If that is true, then by 2030 the number of cars sold with an antiquated fuel will be almost zero on its own, just by market forces.

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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:01 am

Extremely optimistic. Let's see how it plays out.

Does this come with a revamp of California's power infrastructure, though?
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:10 pm

casinterest wrote:
15 years out..... I wouldn't hold by breath on this one holding up. I would imagine there will be far less demand for Gas powered cars by then, but i don't think it will be zero.

If Musk pulls off the 25000 dollar car, then it could happen though.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesl ... elon-musk/

Thanks for providing the link.

One thing I think is pretty significant is Musk has spoken in the past about how the car's systems are spec'd to last a million miles except for the battery which is on a curve to get to 500K this generation and 1M the next.

So while the cars are sold as low as $38k now (and being realistic most go out in the $50k-$60k range) they have incredibly long lives and incredibly low maintenance requirements.

And there's more to the story on the $25k car:

"We're confident that long-term we can design and manufacture a compelling $25,000 electric vehicle," Musk said. It's expected to arrive in the next three years, and Musk even said the low-cost EV will boast full self-driving. Hmm. Of course, it's also important to note that Musk himself hinted at a $25,000 Tesla EV coming in three years... back in 2018. Perhaps that last bit is one of the reasons why Wall Street reacted poorly to Battery Day, chopping $50 billion off its stock value. The company's stock continued to decline Wednesday morning.

----

TTailedTiger wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

People who buy high-end and super luxury cars think of them as more than appliances. They want to feel and hear the machine.


I'm not getting your argument. If petrol (gasoline) engines are banned, the brands will happily sell an EV version - people won't stop parading their wealth just because the engine has changed.


They will buy them in other states and just bring them in. Unless you can figure how to make an electric engine feel and sound like a V12 then you won't be selling anything in that category.

Boo, hoo hoo. Their need for speed runs right in to everyone else's need for clean air. Making an electric car sound like a gasoline car makes as much sense as making a gasoline car sound like a horse. In 15 years the norm will be to have electric vehicles, most celebs won't want to be seen in a gasser. It'd be like showing up today in a car burning coal.

Why do our thoughts immediately turn to what rich people want?

Why not support something innovative, like the electric vehicle. For those of you who think of yourselves as US patriots, guess where the Tesla was invented, and where most of the models are still being built?
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JJJ
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
casinterest wrote:
15 years out..... I wouldn't hold by breath on this one holding up. I would imagine there will be far less demand for Gas powered cars by then, but i don't think it will be zero.

If Musk pulls off the 25000 dollar car, then it could happen though.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesl ... elon-musk/

Thanks for providing the link.

One thing I think is pretty significant is Musk has spoken in the past about how the car's systems are spec'd to last a million miles except for the battery which is on a curve to get to 500K this generation and 1M the next.

So while the cars are sold as low as $38k now (and being realistic most go out in the $50k-$60k range) they have incredibly long lives and incredibly low maintenance requirements.

And there's more to the story on the $25k car:


You know he said the same thing about a 25K car two years ago right?

There will be plenty of $25K cars around in a few years, I don't think any of them will be a Tesla.

Renault says they're launching the Dacia version of the Chinese Renault City K-ZE in Europe at 15.000 euro (it sells for less than 10K in China) I don't think Tesla should dip their feet there.
 
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:42 pm

JJJ wrote:
You know he said the same thing about a 25K car two years ago right?

Yes, that's in the quote I included above. Musk makes a lot of promises, and most come true, but rarely on the time line he suggests.

JJJ wrote:
There will be plenty of $25K cars around in a few years, I don't think any of them will be a Tesla.

Renault says they're launching the Dacia version of the Chinese Renault City K-ZE in Europe at 15.000 euro (it sells for less than 10K in China) I don't think Tesla should dip their feet there.

I won't have a problem with that if he can make money and retain quality at that price point, but if not, I prefer he make people pay what it takes to develop the tech.

On the other hand he keeps saying Tesla is all about mass adaptation of electric vehicles so if he wants that to happen he needs to do better than the current >$35k price point.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
Why do our thoughts immediately turn to what rich people want?

It's the whole thing about projection. Everybody wants to be rich; therefore, they want what rich people want.

Revelation wrote:
Why not support something innovative, like the electric vehicle. For those of you who think of yourselves as US patriots, guess where the Tesla was invented, and where most of the models are still being built?

It's a catch-22 in their view. Teslas are made in the US...but EVs mean less demand for gas which means our very patriotic oil producing states will suffer. So...let's ban EVs: we'll own the liberal coastal elites AND keep oil running.
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N965UW
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:50 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
It is better not to own a car at all.


Tell that to the people in exurban/rural areas. Not everyone lives in a city with access to public transit.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:55 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
c933103 wrote:
When will they ban diesel powered train and install power lines for the trains? I think that's comparatively easier


Diesel electric trains are by far the most efficient method of land transport we have today. You want to solve vehicular pollution, push for more and more intermodal yards all over this country, to minimize the distance that containers are trucked.


RR economics are fierce. BNSF sold itself to Buffet to largely escape. Higher volume and a little less per car profit does not seem to work except for BNSF. In part it is the demands of Wall Street. But before that the awesome competition of the trucking industry. Electric seems to require several trains per hour per track before it justifies just the maintenance.

Res Tesla car prices: The Cyber Truck already is competitive. I really don't need a comfortable 6 passenger, 300 mile range, 5 seconds to 60mph, almost full truck bed, but when I saw all that for $50K I got in line. Kids already have their dibs in, it may come with dings, we plan a fair amount of off roading.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:58 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Why do our thoughts immediately turn to what rich people want?

It's the whole thing about projection. Everybody wants to be rich; therefore, they want what rich people want.

Revelation wrote:
Why not support something innovative, like the electric vehicle. For those of you who think of yourselves as US patriots, guess where the Tesla was invented, and where most of the models are still being built?

It's a catch-22 in their view. Teslas are made in the US...but EVs mean less demand for gas which means our very patriotic oil producing states will suffer. So...let's ban EVs: we'll own the liberal coastal elites AND keep oil running.

Sad but true.

I'm close to staging an intervention on one of my relatives.

The red state echo chamber has snuffed out her ability to think independently.

N965UW wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
It is better not to own a car at all.

Tell that to the people in exurban/rural areas. Not everyone lives in a city with access to public transit.

Look at the bright side: people in those areas have access to the Sun.

A few solar panels, a battery farm, and they're in charge of their fate.

Those same people can't expect to be living on top of an oil field or have their own refinery.

Those rugged individuals who lean Conservative and truly value an independent lifestyle should be all over this stuff.

Yet they are in the grip of Big Oil and they don't even seem to realize it.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:02 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Res Tesla car prices: The Cyber Truck already is competitive. I really don't need a comfortable 6 passenger, 300 mile range, 5 seconds to 60mph, almost full truck bed, but when I saw all that for $50K I got in line. Kids already have their dibs in, it may come with dings, we plan a fair amount of off roading.

Congrats!

I think the Rivian truck is closer to what most people will prefer, but it's pricing is deeply in the luxury range.

Hopefully they aren't too different than Tesla in that they will use the luxury market to fund the bulk of their development then build a more affordable mainstream model.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:17 pm

This will not stand as is. It will be voided or overturned. For some reason Newsome is pretending California is the only place will go and that everyone will not need a car capable of interstate travel. He is also pretending "out of state" is an actual option for regular purchases of vehicles by your average Californian's in this order.

That is not the case, LBTERW's post covers the issue:
ltbewr wrote:
Even by then, too many are in circumstances, locations and needs that pure EV's are not practical.


My drive to Arizona or Montana or where ever that I need to make tomorrow and complete within 24 hours is not easily completed with only electric as an option. Perhaps, maybe, it is possibly conceivable, that you could rule a "second vehicle" must be non-gasoline but even that is a stretch. Honestly the cost benefits, as they improve, will drive the adoption of non-gas vehicles.

Tugg
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:18 pm

Here is a good article that goes into how Musl and Tesla want to get to 25,000 dollar cars.
It has to do with the batteries.

Getting rid of the Slurry,
Getting rid of the tabs,
Using the batteries as structural components in the cars.

It looks like they have a plan.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/09/ho ... 25000-car/
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:33 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Why do our thoughts immediately turn to what rich people want?

It's the whole thing about projection. Everybody wants to be rich; therefore, they want what rich people want.

Revelation wrote:
Why not support something innovative, like the electric vehicle. For those of you who think of yourselves as US patriots, guess where the Tesla was invented, and where most of the models are still being built?

It's a catch-22 in their view. Teslas are made in the US...but EVs mean less demand for gas which means our very patriotic oil producing states will suffer. So...let's ban EVs: we'll own the liberal coastal elites AND keep oil running.

According to local Chinese news it seems like Tesla have been.selling made in China car in the US and is demanding a refund of import tariff through court process, if I am reading the news and if the news is accurate
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:38 pm

Tugger wrote:
This will not stand as is. It will be voided or overturned. For some reason Newsome is pretending California is the only place will go and that everyone will not need a car capable of interstate travel. He is also pretending "out of state" is an actual option for regular purchases of vehicles by your average Californian's in this order.

That is not the case, LBTERW's post covers the issue:
ltbewr wrote:
Even by then, too many are in circumstances, locations and needs that pure EV's are not practical.


My drive to Arizona or Montana or where ever that I need to make tomorrow and complete within 24 hours is not easily completed with only electric as an option. Perhaps, maybe, it is possibly conceivable, that you could rule a "second vehicle" must be non-gasoline but even that is a stretch. Honestly the cost benefits, as they improve, will drive the adoption of non-gas vehicles.

Tugg

The expectation is probably that electrical recharge station will be as common as gas station and a 80% recharge can be completed in a few minutes.
But we still don't know how successful will it be at that time
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:43 pm

Tugger wrote:
This will not stand as is. It will be voided or overturned. For some reason Newsome is pretending California is the only place will go and that everyone will not need a car capable of interstate travel. He is also pretending "out of state" is an actual option for regular purchases of vehicles by your average Californian's in this order.

That is not the case, LBTERW's post covers the issue:
ltbewr wrote:
Even by then, too many are in circumstances, locations and needs that pure EV's are not practical.


My drive to Arizona or Montana or where ever that I need to make tomorrow and complete within 24 hours is not easily completed with only electric as an option. Perhaps, maybe, it is possibly conceivable, that you could rule a "second vehicle" must be non-gasoline but even that is a stretch. Honestly the cost benefits, as they improve, will drive the adoption of non-gas vehicles.

Tugg

The post above shows future cars with 500+ mile range so 8 hours of driving at ~60 MPH. If you can drive 8 hours without stopping you're unusual. If you drive 8 hours and pass no chargers you are unusual. The current cars are in the 300 mile range so five hours at 60 MPH. In 15 years things will only be better. Most people with current Tesla long range models (300 mile range) end up driving about four hours then stopping 20 mins for a charge. This is a pretty acceptable trade off for most people.

That being said, I agree this is really a statement of intent rather than an unchangeable dictate. I already wrote it's a bit too heavy handed, yet it does show leadership, something we lack in the current environment.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:45 pm

c933103 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Why do our thoughts immediately turn to what rich people want?

It's the whole thing about projection. Everybody wants to be rich; therefore, they want what rich people want.

Revelation wrote:
Why not support something innovative, like the electric vehicle. For those of you who think of yourselves as US patriots, guess where the Tesla was invented, and where most of the models are still being built?

It's a catch-22 in their view. Teslas are made in the US...but EVs mean less demand for gas which means our very patriotic oil producing states will suffer. So...let's ban EVs: we'll own the liberal coastal elites AND keep oil running.

According to local Chinese news it seems like Tesla have been.selling made in China car in the US and is demanding a refund of import tariff through court process, if I am reading the news and if the news is accurate

Yes, this is why I wrote "most" Teslas are made in US. There is now a factory near Shanghai for the China/Asia market and one is being built near Berlin for the EU market.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
Tugger wrote:
This will not stand as is. It will be voided or overturned. For some reason Newsome is pretending California is the only place will go and that everyone will not need a car capable of interstate travel. He is also pretending "out of state" is an actual option for regular purchases of vehicles by your average Californian's in this order.

That is not the case, LBTERW's post covers the issue:
ltbewr wrote:
Even by then, too many are in circumstances, locations and needs that pure EV's are not practical.


My drive to Arizona or Montana or where ever that I need to make tomorrow and complete within 24 hours is not easily completed with only electric as an option. Perhaps, maybe, it is possibly conceivable, that you could rule a "second vehicle" must be non-gasoline but even that is a stretch. Honestly the cost benefits, as they improve, will drive the adoption of non-gas vehicles.

Tugg

The post above shows future cars with 500+ mile range so 8 hours of driving at ~60 MPH. If you can drive 8 hours without stopping you're unusual. If you drive 8 hours and pass no chargers you are unusual. The current cars are in the 300 mile range so five hours at 60 MPH. In 15 years things will only be better. Most people with current Tesla long range models (300 mile range) end up driving about four hours then stopping 20 mins for a charge. This is a pretty acceptable trade off for most people.

That being said, I agree this is really a statement of intent rather than an unchangeable dictate. I already wrote it's a bit too heavy handed, yet it does show leadership, something we lack in the current environment.


Absolutely. Half of leadership is just putting out a vision statement for the future.
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
c933103 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
It's the whole thing about projection. Everybody wants to be rich; therefore, they want what rich people want.


It's a catch-22 in their view. Teslas are made in the US...but EVs mean less demand for gas which means our very patriotic oil producing states will suffer. So...let's ban EVs: we'll own the liberal coastal elites AND keep oil running.

According to local Chinese news it seems like Tesla have been.selling made in China car in the US and is demanding a refund of import tariff through court process, if I am reading the news and if the news is accurate

Yes, this is why I wrote "most" Teslas are made in US. There is now a factory near Shanghai for the China/Asia market and one is being built near Berlin for the EU market.

Why would yhey need to pay US tariff if the Shanghai factory is for China/Asia market?
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:56 pm

c933103 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
c933103 wrote:
According to local Chinese news it seems like Tesla have been.selling made in China car in the US and is demanding a refund of import tariff through court process, if I am reading the news and if the news is accurate

Yes, this is why I wrote "most" Teslas are made in US. There is now a factory near Shanghai for the China/Asia market and one is being built near Berlin for the EU market.

Why would yhey need to pay US tariff if the Shanghai factory is for China/Asia market?

Sorry, but I don't know about the issue. Can you provide a link (hopefully in English language)?
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Re: California to ban sale of new gasoline-powered passenger vehicles in 2035

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Yes, this is why I wrote "most" Teslas are made in US. There is now a factory near Shanghai for the China/Asia market and one is being built near Berlin for the EU market.

Why would yhey need to pay US tariff if the Shanghai factory is for China/Asia market?

Sorry, but I don't know about the issue. Can you provide a link (hopefully in English language)?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... f=AwwRcx4b
Oh, apparently it's not whole car, but just parts
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