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afcjets
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Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:17 pm

I personally think the #1 story of 2020 in the US will be chaos from the election results (no matter who wins) instead of covid. Since too many Americans no longer share the same values for the nation and political violence is happening everyday in many US cities and states, is a civil war in the making?

The second related topic I would like to discuss is could individual US states create borders or at least barriers to residency? Is there anything in the Constitution that prevents that?
 
N867DA
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:29 pm

I do not believe a war will occur but do feel unless an external event or significant cultural shift occurs more power will return to the states. I imagine we've been on this road for some time--abortion restrictions, up to a de facto ban on the procedure or openly legal marijuana sales are good examples of local policy that differs from either the letter or spirit of the law.

The constitution as-is has been interpreted by the judiciary to guarantee freedom of movement among all states.

It's very challenging to predict these things, because outlook can change very quickly. All we're doing is extrapolating the status quo but no one know what will transpire to unify or further divide the country.
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Aaron747
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:33 pm

afcjets wrote:
I personally think the #1 story of 2020 in the US will be chaos from the election results (no matter who wins) instead of covid. Since too many Americans no longer share the same values for the nation and political violence is happening everyday in many US cities and states, is a civil war in the making?

The second related topic I would like to discuss is could individual US states create borders or at least barriers to residency? Is there anything in the Constitution that prevents that?


Civil war is unlikely. Unlike the 1860s people cannot just leave their kids in charge of the store/farm and go fight. The almighty dollar, the true value still left nationwide, is what will ultimately prevent anything like that from happening.
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winginit
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:55 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
I personally think the #1 story of 2020 in the US will be chaos from the election results (no matter who wins) instead of covid. Since too many Americans no longer share the same values for the nation and political violence is happening everyday in many US cities and states, is a civil war in the making?

The second related topic I would like to discuss is could individual US states create borders or at least barriers to residency? Is there anything in the Constitution that prevents that?


Civil war is unlikely. Unlike the 1860s people cannot just leave their kids in charge of the store/farm and go fight. The almighty dollar, the true value still left nationwide, is what will ultimately prevent anything like that from happening.


This. In an overwhelming number of historical cases there is only one thing that leads to Civil War, and that's the lack of or the severe prospect of the lack of basic human necessities like food and water for masses of people. Americans, even poor Americans, are not dying in the streets of hunger (with very few exceptions), and even the lower classes have a standard of living that is the envy of at least half of the world who live in actual poverty.

We remain, in summary, a comfortable and exceptionally wealthy nation, and comfortable nations don't devolve into civil war - they simply check out of politics.
 
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:40 pm

N867DA wrote:
The constitution as-is has been interpreted by the judiciary to guarantee freedom of movement among all states.


In normal circumstances yes, but like all rights, is not one unlimited. There are several SCOTUS cases upholding state border restrictions/closures in order to contain disease (sound familiar?) and natural disaster. It's reasonable to expect that the law would be extended to armed attack or war (but remains untested since there hasn't been a need). If such a case were to come before the Court today, I'd imagine there to be a strong challenge on interstate commerce grounds, with an equally strong defense of wartime exigency.
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Aloha717200
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:44 pm

I believe we are in something of a "cold civil war" right now. Both sides vehemently hate each other, draw weapons on each other at protests, and recently, have begun killing each other. The flames are fanned on by POTUS who sees the unrest as working to his electoral advantage.

Here in my state I've seen more and more people joining militias like the 3%ers and often overhear people talking about the "solution" to protests being to just "shoot em".

Meanwhile, people seeing the rise of these right wing militias are getting scared and buying weapons for the first time in their life. A friend of mine a few towns away formed a group with their LGBT friends to visit the forest once a week and train in self defense and weapons use just in case the shit hits the fan. I was invited to join and politely declined.

It's not just here. In michigan you've seen people reacting to the militias by taking up arms themselves to protect and escort lawmakers to their jobs. The right thinks that they're the only side with the guns. But the left is arming up, quickly, to protect themselves.

And as long as the flames keep getting fanned by this president I see this continuing to escalate.

Meanwhile on my trips to California, Oregon and Washington, I see more and more Cascadia Independence flags being flown. I can't blame them.. the President has made clear he doesn't care about the well being of blue states. He cares about loyalty, not lives.

So I wouldn't say civil war is a far fetched idea. I think we are closer to it than we have been since the first one. And that's no joke.
 
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:48 pm

It could happen. There is a fast spreading narrative that the US government itself is evil (both the left and right fringe lunatics believe this). These lunatics may become violent and dangerous to law abiding people, leading to conflict between normal Americans and fringe militants.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:06 pm

A civil war against who? We are divided by political ideology, not by geographic locations or jobs.
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winginit
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:26 pm

casinterest wrote:
A civil war against who? We are divided by political ideology, not by geographic locations or jobs.


This is the other thing. A Civil War isn't even a remote possibility, but even if it were, between who? Blue States and Red States? Yeah... good luck with that.
 
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Aloha717200
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:35 pm

winginit wrote:
casinterest wrote:
A civil war against who? We are divided by political ideology, not by geographic locations or jobs.


This is the other thing. A Civil War isn't even a remote possibility, but even if it were, between who? Blue States and Red States? Yeah... good luck with that.


It would be between right wingers and left wingers. It wouldn't be a "territorial" civil war. It would be a chaotic guerilla-style civil war with left and right militias taking shots at each other, and with the current POTUS, likely military efforts to put down the left and the left fighting that aspect as well. That said, some military divisions would potentially not take aim at citizens so you might see fracturing there, as well.

Far fetched? Maybe. But far less so than it once was. I wouldn't discount it. The hate is white-hot between left and right at this point. And both would feel no remorse killing each other.
 
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seb146
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:05 pm

I think the civil war will happen because those who want MAGA forever will be in the tiny minority with all their guns and violence and demand everyone bow to their will. The tyranny of the minority but way worse than we have now.

I would rather see MAGA form their own country. The old South. They can live happily subjugating minorities, paying no taxes, working for next to nothing, polluting whatever water and ground. Build a big wall around them. Let Jeebus and MAGA take care of them.
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Aloha717200
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:14 pm

seb146 wrote:
I think the civil war will happen because those who want MAGA forever will be in the tiny minority with all their guns and violence and demand everyone bow to their will. The tyranny of the minority but way worse than we have now.

I would rather see MAGA form their own country. The old South. They can live happily subjugating minorities, paying no taxes, working for next to nothing, polluting whatever water and ground. Build a big wall around them. Let Jeebus and MAGA take care of them.



You know what's interesting is that the MAGA people are already trying to make their own states. See: Greater Idaho and Liberty State.

There's a lot of buzz around Greater Idaho lately, especially.

But hey, the left wants to seceed from the union entirely. And that brings me back to my original point which is that civil war is far more likely with current tensions right now than people think.
 
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:46 pm

Article 1 ss 10 of the Constitution addresses that. As to a shooting war..probably not...https://www.nationalguard.mil/About-the ... s/Leaders/. As you can see, the command structure of the National Guard is spread amongst the States..as are the units. Now if trump tried to use the US Army...Active Duty troops, that would be a DIRECT violation of the Constitution, this was one of the main reasons we flipped George III the bird with quartering troops in citizens homes. IF these "militias" try to cause a rukus, it would be quelled pretty quick
Last edited by bhill on Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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casinterest
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:48 pm

Aloha717200 wrote:
winginit wrote:
casinterest wrote:
A civil war against who? We are divided by political ideology, not by geographic locations or jobs.


This is the other thing. A Civil War isn't even a remote possibility, but even if it were, between who? Blue States and Red States? Yeah... good luck with that.


It would be between right wingers and left wingers. It wouldn't be a "territorial" civil war. It would be a chaotic guerilla-style civil war with left and right militias taking shots at each other, and with the current POTUS, likely military efforts to put down the left and the left fighting that aspect as well. That said, some military divisions would potentially not take aim at citizens so you might see fracturing there, as well.

Far fetched? Maybe. But far less so than it once was. I wouldn't discount it. The hate is white-hot between left and right at this point. And both would feel no remorse killing each other.


Look the Left wingers can take over the Bojangles , Bass Pro Shops, Cabela, and Walmart and the battle is over.
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:53 pm

As for guerilla milita tactics...nope..we can deal with that as well...

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Aloha717200
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:42 pm

bhill wrote:
Article 1 ss 10 of the Constitution addresses that. As to a shooting war..probably not...https://www.nationalguard.mil/About-the ... s/Leaders/. As you can see, the command structure of the National Guard is spread amongst the States..as are the units. Now if trump tried to use the US Army...Active Duty troops, that would be a DIRECT violation of the Constitution, this was one of the main reasons we flipped George III the bird with quartering troops in citizens homes. IF these "militias" try to cause a rukus, it would be quelled pretty quick


Trump can nationalize the national guard and use the insurrection act. He's already discussed doing this. My question to you is, with Trump being commander in chief, do you really think the military will put down the right wing militias? Because under this president I see a lot of finger pointing at the left even though the right has killed more people so far, and is far more heavily armed at this point.

I don't see a scenario where the right wing is held accountable. It'll all be the "left's" fault. There's a massive double standard where right wing violence is considered "self defense" and left wing violence is considered "barbarism".
 
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:47 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aloha717200 wrote:
winginit wrote:

This is the other thing. A Civil War isn't even a remote possibility, but even if it were, between who? Blue States and Red States? Yeah... good luck with that.


It would be between right wingers and left wingers. It wouldn't be a "territorial" civil war. It would be a chaotic guerilla-style civil war with left and right militias taking shots at each other, and with the current POTUS, likely military efforts to put down the left and the left fighting that aspect as well. That said, some military divisions would potentially not take aim at citizens so you might see fracturing there, as well.

Far fetched? Maybe. But far less so than it once was. I wouldn't discount it. The hate is white-hot between left and right at this point. And both would feel no remorse killing each other.


Look the Left wingers can take over the Bojangles , Bass Pro Shops, Cabela, and Walmart and the battle is over.


The right wingers would counter by taking over Starbucks and Target. The wives of the left-wingers would then demand their husbands put an end to this Civil War nonsense, double time.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:52 pm

N583JB wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aloha717200 wrote:

It would be between right wingers and left wingers. It wouldn't be a "territorial" civil war. It would be a chaotic guerilla-style civil war with left and right militias taking shots at each other, and with the current POTUS, likely military efforts to put down the left and the left fighting that aspect as well. That said, some military divisions would potentially not take aim at citizens so you might see fracturing there, as well.

Far fetched? Maybe. But far less so than it once was. I wouldn't discount it. The hate is white-hot between left and right at this point. And both would feel no remorse killing each other.


Look the Left wingers can take over the Bojangles , Bass Pro Shops, Cabela, and Walmart and the battle is over.


The right wingers would counter by taking over Starbucks and Target. The wives of the left-wingers would then demand their husbands put an end to this Civil War nonsense, double time.

Nah, the starbucks contingent would go nuclear at that point.
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Kent350787
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:45 pm

I can’t envisage a civil war, but fully expect an increase in activity from those parts of the community identified as the greatest terrorist threat to the country.

Probably whatever the outcome of the election, but definitely if the candidate that domestic terrorists are more likely to prefer loses.
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:51 pm

No, a civil war is not in the making. For a starter, who would be the warring parties? During the last American civil war, America was split between the North and the South each with their respective militaries.

Nothing is out of the question, but usually civil wars erupt because a certain part of a nation wishes to secede from the rest of the nation due to grievances etc.
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:20 am

winginit wrote:
This. In an overwhelming number of historical cases there is only one thing that leads to Civil War, and that's the lack of or the severe prospect of the lack of basic human necessities like food and water for masses of people. Americans, even poor Americans, are not dying in the streets of hunger (with very few exceptions), and even the lower classes have a standard of living that is the envy of at least half of the world who live in actual poverty.

When Ukrainians wanted independence, Stalin took out enough grain to cause a famine (see "holdomor"). Starving people don't protest.
Similar at the time of the French Revolution the French government was rather successful. A dictator who keeps its population in bad poverty is quite save.

While the British Indian government was probably better than local rulers from somewhere in the middle of the nineteenth century, the system was very much in favor of the British. It was only after WW1 that the British supported industrialization in India. The new rich class used parts of their profits to support Gandhi financially. Also after 1900 education in India took off, but there were not enough jobs for all these educated people.

If people have enough food, but their aspirations are frustrated, the probability of efforts for change (violent or otherwise) increases.
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wingman
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:50 am

I don't see a civil war breaking out but I'm not sure I see any real downside allowing block of states on either side of the divide decide to leave the union peacefully and form their own country. We could do things at a strategic level such as free trade and open borders like the EU but allow states to vote one by one to decide where they prefer to be. You'd see plenty of migration at that point but to me it makes a lot of sense. We're really not much a nation at this point and I'm not sure I see the downside of letting states and people make a choice. I could see the two countries line up something like this:

United Red States
Predominantly white
Religious-based education
Very low tax base
Pro business and manufacturing
No public healthcare, have job or pay out of pocket
Unlimited weapons ownership from age 16
No abortion
Little to no immigration allowed

United Blue States
Balanced ethnic make-up
Medicare for all
Tax rates 35-60%
Services and High Tech focus
Loose immigration laws
Legalized abortion rights
Ironclad separation of church and state
Strict gun ownership laws requiring licensing, registration etc

Personally I see a lot of happy people and two more prosperous countries as a result. Be with the people you want to be with and live the ideals you preach without insults, intimidation or fear. I'd love to see the West Coast and New England and anyone else who wants to leave join a new union or even ask Canada if they'd have us. I'm game.
 
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Aloha717200
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:10 am

wingman wrote:
I don't see a civil war breaking out but I'm not sure I see any real downside allowing block of states on either side of the divide decide to leave the union peacefully and form their own country. We could do things at a strategic level such as free trade and open borders like the EU but allow states to vote one by one to decide where they prefer to be. You'd see plenty of migration at that point but to me it makes a lot of sense. We're really not much a nation at this point and I'm not sure I see the downside of letting states and people make a choice. I could see the two countries line up something like this:

United Red States
Predominantly white
Religious-based education
Very low tax base
Pro business and manufacturing
No public healthcare, have job or pay out of pocket
Unlimited weapons ownership from age 16
No abortion
Little to no immigration allowed

United Blue States
Balanced ethnic make-up
Medicare for all
Tax rates 35-60%
Services and High Tech focus
Loose immigration laws
Legalized abortion rights
Ironclad separation of church and state
Strict gun ownership laws requiring licensing, registration etc

Personally I see a lot of happy people and two more prosperous countries as a result. Be with the people you want to be with and live the ideals you preach without insults, intimidation or fear. I'd love to see the West Coast and New England and anyone else who wants to leave join a new union or even ask Canada if they'd have us. I'm game.


Honestly, I legitimately would prefer this. I'd happily leave my red state and move to a nice blue state anyway, but under thus I'd not have to worry about a dictator and the fanatical religious zealots that demean my existence as an LGBTQ individual.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:32 am

fallap wrote:
No, a civil war is not in the making. For a starter, who would be the warring parties? During the last American civil war, America was split between the North and the South each with their respective militaries.

Nothing is out of the question, but usually civil wars erupt because a certain part of a nation wishes to secede from the rest of the nation due to grievances etc.


Totally agree with this, and it's why I believe that right-wing terrorist activity is more likely. The majority of the population do not support Trump, and the red states are too few to raise an effective force against the ohters and a national government.

Of course, without significant external assistance. Would Russia support Trump in an armed uprising?
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:29 am

Kent350787 wrote:
fallap wrote:
No, a civil war is not in the making. For a starter, who would be the warring parties? During the last American civil war, America was split between the North and the South each with their respective militaries.

Nothing is out of the question, but usually civil wars erupt because a certain part of a nation wishes to secede from the rest of the nation due to grievances etc.


Totally agree with this, and it's why I believe that right-wing terrorist activity is more likely. The majority of the population do not support Trump, and the red states are too few to raise an effective force against the ohters and a national government.

Of course, without significant external assistance. Would Russia support Trump in an armed uprising?

And the red states, like my own of MO, are actually split 45-55 blue to red, and not all of that red is willing to take a bullet for Trump, so you really only have the 1% who would show up at a rally who would actually even want to fight
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75driver
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:18 am

Aloha717200 wrote:
I believe we are in something of a "cold civil war" right now. Both sides vehemently hate each other, draw weapons on each other at protests, and recently, have begun killing each other. The flames are fanned on by POTUS who sees the unrest as working to his electoral advantage.

Here in my state I've seen more and more people joining militias like the 3%ers and often overhear people talking about the "solution" to protests being to just "shoot em".

Meanwhile, people seeing the rise of these right wing militias are getting scared and buying weapons for the first time in their life. A friend of mine a few towns away formed a group with their LGBT friends to visit the forest once a week and train in self defense and weapons use just in case the shit hits the fan. I was invited to join and politely declined.

It's not just here. In michigan you've seen people reacting to the militias by taking up arms themselves to protect and escort lawmakers to their jobs. The right thinks that they're the only side with the guns. But the left is arming up, quickly, to protect themselves.

And as long as the flames keep getting fanned by this president I see this continuing to escalate.

Meanwhile on my trips to California, Oregon and Washington, I see more and more Cascadia Independence flags being flown. I can't blame them.. the President has made clear he doesn't care about the well being of blue states. He cares about loyalty, not lives.

So I wouldn't say civil war is a far fetched idea. I think we are closer to it than we have been since the first one. And that's no joke.


Im no Trump supporter but claiming the flames are strictly being fanned by him is short sighted. I see as much turmoil being promoted by the left as I do the right. Trump is an idiot but it’s brought the worst out in both extremes.
 
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seb146
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:01 pm

Aloha717200 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I think the civil war will happen because those who want MAGA forever will be in the tiny minority with all their guns and violence and demand everyone bow to their will. The tyranny of the minority but way worse than we have now.

I would rather see MAGA form their own country. The old South. They can live happily subjugating minorities, paying no taxes, working for next to nothing, polluting whatever water and ground. Build a big wall around them. Let Jeebus and MAGA take care of them.



You know what's interesting is that the MAGA people are already trying to make their own states. See: Greater Idaho and Liberty State.

There's a lot of buzz around Greater Idaho lately, especially.

But hey, the left wants to seceed from the union entirely. And that brings me back to my original point which is that civil war is far more likely with current tensions right now than people think.


There has been a movement in southern Oregon and extreme northern California for decades called "State Of Jefferson". For a long time, that was more about frustration over this area not being represented in Congress and their respective state legislatures. Now, it has morphed into a MAGA call. These large swaths of sparsely populated land think they can do better than urban and suburban areas. They won't be collecting any taxes nor spending on much of anything so I guess it could work. Until people start demanding crazy things like public schools and paved roads.....

When has "the left" wanted to secede from the union entirely? That one time someone wrote an op-ed about California being a world economy?
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seb146
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:05 pm

75driver wrote:
Aloha717200 wrote:
I believe we are in something of a "cold civil war" right now. Both sides vehemently hate each other, draw weapons on each other at protests, and recently, have begun killing each other. The flames are fanned on by POTUS who sees the unrest as working to his electoral advantage.

Here in my state I've seen more and more people joining militias like the 3%ers and often overhear people talking about the "solution" to protests being to just "shoot em".

Meanwhile, people seeing the rise of these right wing militias are getting scared and buying weapons for the first time in their life. A friend of mine a few towns away formed a group with their LGBT friends to visit the forest once a week and train in self defense and weapons use just in case the shit hits the fan. I was invited to join and politely declined.

It's not just here. In michigan you've seen people reacting to the militias by taking up arms themselves to protect and escort lawmakers to their jobs. The right thinks that they're the only side with the guns. But the left is arming up, quickly, to protect themselves.

And as long as the flames keep getting fanned by this president I see this continuing to escalate.

Meanwhile on my trips to California, Oregon and Washington, I see more and more Cascadia Independence flags being flown. I can't blame them.. the President has made clear he doesn't care about the well being of blue states. He cares about loyalty, not lives.

So I wouldn't say civil war is a far fetched idea. I think we are closer to it than we have been since the first one. And that's no joke.


Im no Trump supporter but claiming the flames are strictly being fanned by him is short sighted. I see as much turmoil being promoted by the left as I do the right. Trump is an idiot but it’s brought the worst out in both extremes.


Again, "both sides do it" is not true. It is just another way for the right and MAGA to absolve themselves of any responsibility. Democrats and centrist Republicans have been trying to lead using this "we" and "us" mentality. MAGA uses "I" and "me" because only their leader can lead, not We The People. Also, keep in mind that he is playing to his racist base and name calling and bullying by him are cheered on by his base.

The "both sides do it" argument falls flat yet again. This is not "both sides doing it" but, rather, one guy ginning up his base and the rest of us pushing back against the tyranny of the minority.
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wingman
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:37 pm

seb146 wrote:
When has "the left" wanted to secede from the union entirely? That one time someone wrote an op-ed about California being a world economy?


And why secede when we can part ways amicably? Red states and Red Americans don't want to be with Blue states or Blue Americans and vice versa. This is very different from the civil war. We look at a whole list of core human and "national" values in completely opposite ways. The more I think about it the more this makes perfect sense. All these people in Jefferson can move to Idaho and Utah or Wyoming. There will be millions of acres up for private grabs where Red states open up Federal land for mining, oil drilling, open grazing of livestock etc. Keep borders intact and let the people in each vote by simple majority. People that don't like the result can leave to go to the country of their dreams. I struggle to see a downside.
 
slider
Posts: 7610
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:09 pm

wingman wrote:
I don't see a civil war breaking out but I'm not sure I see any real downside allowing block of states on either side of the divide decide to leave the union peacefully and form their own country. We could do things at a strategic level such as free trade and open borders like the EU but allow states to vote one by one to decide where they prefer to be. You'd see plenty of migration at that point but to me it makes a lot of sense. We're really not much a nation at this point and I'm not sure I see the downside of letting states and people make a choice. I could see the two countries line up something like this:

United Red States
Predominantly white
Religious-based education
Very low tax base
Pro business and manufacturing
No public healthcare, have job or pay out of pocket
Unlimited weapons ownership from age 16
No abortion
Little to no immigration allowed

United Blue States
Balanced ethnic make-up
Medicare for all
Tax rates 35-60%
Services and High Tech focus
Loose immigration laws
Legalized abortion rights
Ironclad separation of church and state
Strict gun ownership laws requiring licensing, registration etc

Personally I see a lot of happy people and two more prosperous countries as a result. Be with the people you want to be with and live the ideals you preach without insults, intimidation or fear. I'd love to see the West Coast and New England and anyone else who wants to leave join a new union or even ask Canada if they'd have us. I'm game.


Keep stereotyping like this and the chasm will only grow and become more divisive.

How hackneyed.
 
HNLSLCPDX
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:40 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:53 am

Only a fool would wish for war (in this case a civil war) on anyone. War is terrible, evil, and kills so many people.

Not even going to speculate on what a war would look like in this country. Waste of time and doesn’t do any good.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:17 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Only a fool would wish for war (in this case a civil war) on anyone. War is terrible, evil, and kills so many people.

Not even going to speculate on what a war would look like in this country. Waste of time and doesn’t do any good.


I agree, you have to be sick to wish for that. Trust me, we have a few of them floating around on both sides.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:19 am

Aloha717200 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I think the civil war will happen because those who want MAGA forever will be in the tiny minority with all their guns and violence and demand everyone bow to their will. The tyranny of the minority but way worse than we have now.

I would rather see MAGA form their own country. The old South. They can live happily subjugating minorities, paying no taxes, working for next to nothing, polluting whatever water and ground. Build a big wall around them. Let Jeebus and MAGA take care of them.



You know what's interesting is that the MAGA people are already trying to make their own states. See: Greater Idaho and Liberty State.

There's a lot of buzz around Greater Idaho lately, especially.

But hey, the left wants to seceed from the union entirely. And that brings me back to my original point which is that civil war is far more likely with current tensions right now than people think.



Well some large blue states, like California, could possibly function on their own. Fifth largest economy in the world is pretty impressive for just one state. The flyover states with small economies and highest poverty rates actually need Washington. Hell, it’s the blue states like California and New York that have to pay for these places.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:22 am

As long as Canada will take me in as a refugee, I’m fine with it. All great empires/nations fall at some point.
 
Redd
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:19 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
As long as Canada will take me in as a refugee, I’m fine with it. All great empires/nations fall at some point.


I don't know if you've been to Canada recently, but it's not doing much better than the USA. Toronto rivals LA in used needles in children's playground sandpits and everything else that implies. I had to call the police twice when I was there for 3 months because I'd found 2 corpses downtown, both young homeless men overdosed... Police told me they get at least a dozen calls like that per day.

You can't go most parks because they're tent cities that are very dangerous and the government isn't doing anything about it, so the problem is getting worse. Small towns full of meth heads and heroin addicts which is something that didn't exist 10 years ago... Returning after 10 years of being away was the biggest shock of my life, and I'd never move back. Not for any money in the world.

I suggest another country... Canada is like the USA's little brother, what the big brother does, little brother will do soon after.
 
Sokes
Posts: 1814
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:50 am

wingman wrote:
I don't see a civil war breaking out but I'm not sure I see any real downside allowing block of states on either side of the divide decide to leave the union peacefully and form their own country.
...
We could do things at a strategic level such as free trade and open borders like the EU but allow states to vote one by one to decide where they prefer to be. You'd see plenty of migration at that point but to me it makes a lot of sense. We're really not much a nation at this point and I'm not sure I see the downside of letting states and people make a choice.

Personally I see a lot of happy people and two more prosperous countries as a result. Be with the people you want to be with and live the ideals you preach without insults, intimidation or fear. I'd love to see the West Coast and New England and anyone else who wants to leave join a new union or even ask Canada if they'd have us. I'm game.

Nations are not formed by intellectual reasoning, but by common identity, often based on common suffering.

Before the partition of India Ambedkar, the untouchable caste leader, wrote a book supporting a separate homeland for Muslims, Pakistan.
I agree with his argument, it's very logical.

Unfortunately people are not, and the real partition had a lot of bloodshed and refugees.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15271
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:06 am

Look at the EC which has a member state the UK removing itself by 'Brexit' and the fear of other states leaving in large parts over racism, immigration, nationalism and economic unevenness. Let us also not forget the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990's along religious and ethnic lines.
While the USA has a different structure than the EU and near impossible for a state to separate from the union, we are seeing a certain 'balkanization' take place by states and even within states over taxation and spending, racism, and economic unevenness.
 
Sokes
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Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:19 am

wingman wrote:
Keep borders intact and let the people in each vote by simple majority. People that don't like the result can leave to go to the country of their dreams. I struggle to see a downside.

True. And true already today.

In Bavaria a party rules that does successful economic policies since decades. To ensure sufficient votes they often argue on an intellectual level that one wants to run away.

Bavaria gets Germans from other German States. These "immigrants" often ridicule the ruling party. Which then makes me wonder why they didn't get a more attractive job offer in the place of their "emmigration".
I exclude people who immigrate for the scenery.

I doubt a world without conflicts is possible.
People don't migrate for their political preferences, but for work. And people often don't know which factors causes good job offers.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 1814
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:28 am

Redd wrote:
Small towns full of meth heads and heroin addicts which is something that didn't exist 10 years ago... Returning after 10 years of being away was the biggest shock of my life...

How to explain it?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Redd
Posts: 1296
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:15 pm

Sokes wrote:
Redd wrote:
Small towns full of meth heads and heroin addicts which is something that didn't exist 10 years ago... Returning after 10 years of being away was the biggest shock of my life...

How to explain it?



I have a few anecdotal theories, but they're not exactly well researched, so I'd rather avoid discussing them. I'll just say that I think it's a lot of the same that the USA and a few other western countries are experiencing at the moment.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18197
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:54 pm

Aloha717200 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I think the civil war will happen because those who want MAGA forever will be in the tiny minority with all their guns and violence and demand everyone bow to their will. The tyranny of the minority but way worse than we have now.

I would rather see MAGA form their own country. The old South. They can live happily subjugating minorities, paying no taxes, working for next to nothing, polluting whatever water and ground. Build a big wall around them. Let Jeebus and MAGA take care of them.



You know what's interesting is that the MAGA people are already trying to make their own states. See: Greater Idaho and Liberty State.

There's a lot of buzz around Greater Idaho lately, especially.

But hey, the left wants to seceed from the union entirely. And that brings me back to my original point which is that civil war is far more likely with current tensions right now than people think.

It's only "more likely" because it's being encouraged from the top. Trump's only drivers are vengeance and greed, and we've seen he sucks at the greed part.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
meecrob
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:15 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:19 pm

Redd wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
As long as Canada will take me in as a refugee, I’m fine with it. All great empires/nations fall at some point.


I don't know if you've been to Canada recently, but it's not doing much better than the USA. Toronto rivals LA in used needles in children's playground sandpits and everything else that implies. I had to call the police twice when I was there for 3 months because I'd found 2 corpses downtown, both young homeless men overdosed... Police told me they get at least a dozen calls like that per day.

You can't go most parks because they're tent cities that are very dangerous and the government isn't doing anything about it, so the problem is getting worse. Small towns full of meth heads and heroin addicts which is something that didn't exist 10 years ago... Returning after 10 years of being away was the biggest shock of my life, and I'd never move back. Not for any money in the world.

I suggest another country... Canada is like the USA's little brother, what the big brother does, little brother will do soon after.


Seriously? I get you didn't enjoy your stay, but you don't need to make things up.

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploa ... 6_2020.pdf

25 overdose deaths in May is a far cry from "at least" 12 overdose deaths per day.

Also, heroin? No, the kids use fentanyl these days. The overdose deaths are usually related to bad batches of fentanyl, which the public authorities notify the public about and distribute naloxone kits in a harm reduction effort.
 
Drafran
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:36 pm

There won't be a civil war like the last one, but there will be violence from both sides and Trump will lap that shit right up. He loves dividing. Personally, I often fantasize since der groppenfuhrer was elected having a time machine and going back to prevent Lincoln from stopping the confederate states from seceding. I also wonder what it might be like splitting up the country now and building a gigantic wall around the United States of Jesusland or whatever they choose to call it. Now that's a wall I can get behind!
 
IFlyTWA
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:29 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:44 pm

How sad that this is being thought of as a possibility, however remote.

This is the United States of America. Is it perfect? No. Will it ever be perfect? Not as long as humans are humans. It is a damn good place to live? Hek yes.

How many people have betrayed other countries, left friends and families behind, just for the chance to live here? So many people that I know would give anything for a chance to be a U.S. citizen.

I can’t believe that we’ve let politicians and the actions of idiots from whatever “side” they are on drag the majority of this nation into doubt. You can feel it talking amongst people here. It’s really sad. One can’t make 100% of the nation content, but we sure could knock out most of the morale draining nonsense quickly.
"To express the excitement of travel" - Eero Saarinen
 
HNLSLCPDX
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:40 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:56 pm

IFlyTWA wrote:
How sad that this is being thought of as a possibility, however remote.

This is the United States of America. Is it perfect? No. Will it ever be perfect? Not as long as humans are humans. It is a damn good place to live? Hek yes.

How many people have betrayed other countries, left friends and families behind, just for the chance to live here? So many people that I know would give anything for a chance to be a U.S. citizen.

I can’t believe that we’ve let politicians and the actions of idiots from whatever “side” they are on drag the majority of this nation into doubt. You can feel it talking amongst people here. It’s really sad. One can’t make 100% of the nation content, but we sure could knock out most of the morale draining nonsense quickly.


I agree. Like I said, only a fool would wish for war and for this country to be split into separate nations. Also saying and wishing you could go back in time to stop Lincoln from forming the confederate is pretty messed up and wrong. Lincoln was the most influential and important president. Lincoln and this country were for ordained by God and to say things like this is absolutely absurd. Slavery, war, and everything that comes with that are the absolute worst forms of evil. Imagine what this country would be like without Lincoln and his guidance and inspiration. Would be worse than it is today. This country might not even exist without Lincoln. And for all the people who say that might be a good thing, go live in North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, and see how much you like a socialist life. Or heck move to Norway, Switzerland, or Canada.
Last edited by HNLSLCPDX on Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ItnStln
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:03 pm

slider wrote:
wingman wrote:
I don't see a civil war breaking out but I'm not sure I see any real downside allowing block of states on either side of the divide decide to leave the union peacefully and form their own country. We could do things at a strategic level such as free trade and open borders like the EU but allow states to vote one by one to decide where they prefer to be. You'd see plenty of migration at that point but to me it makes a lot of sense. We're really not much a nation at this point and I'm not sure I see the downside of letting states and people make a choice. I could see the two countries line up something like this:

United Red States
Predominantly white
Religious-based education
Very low tax base
Pro business and manufacturing
No public healthcare, have job or pay out of pocket
Unlimited weapons ownership from age 16
No abortion
Little to no immigration allowed

United Blue States
Balanced ethnic make-up
Medicare for all
Tax rates 35-60%
Services and High Tech focus
Loose immigration laws
Legalized abortion rights
Ironclad separation of church and state
Strict gun ownership laws requiring licensing, registration etc

Personally I see a lot of happy people and two more prosperous countries as a result. Be with the people you want to be with and live the ideals you preach without insults, intimidation or fear. I'd love to see the West Coast and New England and anyone else who wants to leave join a new union or even ask Canada if they'd have us. I'm game.


Keep stereotyping like this and the chasm will only grow and become more divisive.

How hackneyed.

This
 
Redd
Posts: 1296
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:38 pm

meecrob wrote:
Redd wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
As long as Canada will take me in as a refugee, I’m fine with it. All great empires/nations fall at some point.


I don't know if you've been to Canada recently, but it's not doing much better than the USA. Toronto rivals LA in used needles in children's playground sandpits and everything else that implies. I had to call the police twice when I was there for 3 months because I'd found 2 corpses downtown, both young homeless men overdosed... Police told me they get at least a dozen calls like that per day.

You can't go most parks because they're tent cities that are very dangerous and the government isn't doing anything about it, so the problem is getting worse. Small towns full of meth heads and heroin addicts which is something that didn't exist 10 years ago... Returning after 10 years of being away was the biggest shock of my life, and I'd never move back. Not for any money in the world.

I suggest another country... Canada is like the USA's little brother, what the big brother does, little brother will do soon after.


Seriously? I get you didn't enjoy your stay, but you don't need to make things up.

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploa ... 6_2020.pdf

25 overdose deaths in May is a far cry from "at least" 12 overdose deaths per day.

Also, heroin? No, the kids use fentanyl these days. The overdose deaths are usually related to bad batches of fentanyl, which the public authorities notify the public about and distribute naloxone kits in a harm reduction effort.


What am I making up dear? I'm telling you what I saw and what the Police told me, apparently many deaths aren't reported. As for the heroin or fentanyl, or orange juice I don't know. But the amount of used needles lying around literally everywhere and, even in children's playgrounds is real. The amount of times I saw people shooting up, especially in the East end is also quite real.

I get the fact that you're probably Canadian and a like to ignore how bad things are, but that's not going to help. That city and country needs some serious work, nothing good ever came from sticking your head in the sand.

I also didn't mention 3 break-in attempts by addicts into my brother's townhouse on Sherbourne, had to chase those f&kers out with a baseball bat and the police never bothered to show up in less than 2 hours. They said they're prioritizing stabbings and shootings. Charming place Toronto.
Last edited by Redd on Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
wingman
Posts: 3995
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:39 pm

I disagree completely. There’s no stereotyping whatsoever. The above qualities and values are what drive our two political parties today and what people vote for, and these people include corporations and special interests. Follow the money. To say this is hackneyed or off the mark is naïveté at best or ignorance at worst. Give people a choice and let’s be done with this charade we call the UNITED states. Hatred, division, insults, I say let Trump win on all counts but give those of us on the other side a chance to split peacefully.
 
meecrob
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:15 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:49 pm

Redd wrote:
meecrob wrote:
Redd wrote:

I don't know if you've been to Canada recently, but it's not doing much better than the USA. Toronto rivals LA in used needles in children's playground sandpits and everything else that implies. I had to call the police twice when I was there for 3 months because I'd found 2 corpses downtown, both young homeless men overdosed... Police told me they get at least a dozen calls like that per day.

You can't go most parks because they're tent cities that are very dangerous and the government isn't doing anything about it, so the problem is getting worse. Small towns full of meth heads and heroin addicts which is something that didn't exist 10 years ago... Returning after 10 years of being away was the biggest shock of my life, and I'd never move back. Not for any money in the world.

I suggest another country... Canada is like the USA's little brother, what the big brother does, little brother will do soon after.


Seriously? I get you didn't enjoy your stay, but you don't need to make things up.

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploa ... 6_2020.pdf

25 overdose deaths in May is a far cry from "at least" 12 overdose deaths per day.

Also, heroin? No, the kids use fentanyl these days. The overdose deaths are usually related to bad batches of fentanyl, which the public authorities notify the public about and distribute naloxone kits in a harm reduction effort.


What am I making up dear? I'm telling you what I saw and what the Police told me, apparently many deaths aren't reported. As for the heroin or fentanyl, or orange juice I don't know. But the amount of used needles lying around literally everywhere and, even in children's playgrounds is real. The amount of times I saw people shooting up, especially in the East end is also quite real.

I get the fact that you're probably Canadian and a like to ignore how bad things are, but that's not going to help. That city and country needs some serious work, nothing good ever came from sticking your head in the sand.

I also didn't mention 3 break-in attempts by addicts into my brother's townhouse on Sherbourne, had to chase those f&kers out with a baseball bat and the police never bothered to show up in less than 2 hours. They said they're prioritizing stabbings and shootings. Charming place Toronto.


Read the linked article that states there are not 12 overdose deaths per day. Also, I'm straight, but if you have any idea about Toronto, you'd know calling me "dear" isn't really an insult. I'm done derailing this thread. You clearly have stuff to say about Toronto/Canada...maybe open a thread about it?
 
Redd
Posts: 1296
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:01 pm

meecrob wrote:
Redd wrote:
meecrob wrote:

Seriously? I get you didn't enjoy your stay, but you don't need to make things up.

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploa ... 6_2020.pdf

25 overdose deaths in May is a far cry from "at least" 12 overdose deaths per day.

Also, heroin? No, the kids use fentanyl these days. The overdose deaths are usually related to bad batches of fentanyl, which the public authorities notify the public about and distribute naloxone kits in a harm reduction effort.


What am I making up dear? I'm telling you what I saw and what the Police told me, apparently many deaths aren't reported. As for the heroin or fentanyl, or orange juice I don't know. But the amount of used needles lying around literally everywhere and, even in children's playgrounds is real. The amount of times I saw people shooting up, especially in the East end is also quite real.

I get the fact that you're probably Canadian and a like to ignore how bad things are, but that's not going to help. That city and country needs some serious work, nothing good ever came from sticking your head in the sand.

I also didn't mention 3 break-in attempts by addicts into my brother's townhouse on Sherbourne, had to chase those f&kers out with a baseball bat and the police never bothered to show up in less than 2 hours. They said they're prioritizing stabbings and shootings. Charming place Toronto.


Read the linked article that states there are not 12 overdose deaths per day. Also, I'm straight, but if you have any idea about Toronto, you'd know calling me "dear" isn't really an insult. I'm done derailing this thread. You clearly have stuff to say about Toronto/Canada...maybe open a thread about it?


I did read it, and the Police told me a completely different story. The amount of drug use and used needles I saw correspond with what the police officer told me, Canadian media and government is going to great lengths to hide the problem. I'm sure if you spent some time in T.O. you'd understand.. Dear isn't meant to be an insult BTW, but never mind. I'm not starting a thread on this as I don't really need to discuss in detail the problems of a place I don't live in. I was just jotting down my experiences to an American who apparently thinks things are better in Canada than the USA. Things are pretty bad in Toronto, that's an objective truth.

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