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meecrob
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:06 pm

Back on topic, I do not see a civil war happening due to that fact that "red" or "blue" states are not homogeneous. This is very different from a simple "do you believe Blacks should be property of Whites?" That question is very basic when compared to the question of "should the President manipulate the laws in their favour to maintain power?" The (democratic - and I mean theory, not party) President should absolutely manipulate laws to maintain power if a dictator was trying to gain power, but the definition of "dictator" is up to personal interpretation.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:39 pm

Aloha717200 wrote:
Meanwhile on my trips to California, Oregon and Washington, I see more and more Cascadia Independence flags being flown. I can't blame them.. the President has made clear he doesn't care about the well being of blue states. He cares about loyalty, not lives.


When Gavin Newsom spoke about California as a "Nation-State," I was utterly gobsmacked.

I don't think a civil war in the 1850s sense is something that can happen today. We're too interconnected and modern warfare isn't about handheld firearms anymore. We may see fighting in the streets. One possibility is that hundreds of thousands of people swarm government buildings in Washington, D.C. with Molotov cocktails. The guards and troops can only do so much against such overwhelming numbers of civilians.

But I think that a more likely possibility goes like this: In 2022 or 2024 Republicans, now furious at their loss of power and some perhaps sweeping reforms passed by Democrats, take back the House and announce that they will not do business at all with the President or the (likely Democratic) Senate (the 2024 Senate map offers the GOP one pickup and the DNC two and the 2022 Senate Map offers the DNC four or even five pickups). The government shuts down. And it stays shut down. Months go by and ATC is not paid, the NWS is not funded, the military is not paid and supplies are running short. Eventually, some governors begin to pay unemployment to those workers and after a year, there is a movement to stop paying federal taxes because when the IRS is shut down, who is going to take them? At this point, some states start to consider printing their own currency and taking out loans (most states have Balanced Budget laws) and perhaps even start paying for military equipment and the troops who have now not been paid in many months.

My guess is that Texas might be the first to declare independence, but California/Cascadia could also be first. By this point, the President can scream and shout, but there is no military and no federal enforcement of anything. Across the crumbling US, some people look around themselves and the nascent nation-state in which they reside and quickly migrate to somewhere more suitable for them...and then borders start to close, markets crash and rebound, foreign diplomacy is established, new currencies are minted, and the United States no longer exists.

It seems shocking but even two weeks before the collapse of the Soviet Union, nobody saw it coming. In retrospect, it appears to have been a 20 year process, but I was alive at the time and at 13 or 14 old enough to have a basic grasp of global events. A lot of observers thought it was even a plot to trick the USA into disarming. A collapse of the USA could come just as abruptly.

Some people have argued that this won't work at all and that it would lead to a new Constitutional Convention. After all, the states are so intertwined. Costal states subsidize interstate highways in Idaho and Nebraska because that infrastructure is needed to move goods, but I can't see how this ungovernable nation could agree on any new kind of Constitution. Likely, the result would be something more like Europe in the 1980s. There will be separate countries with separate currencies, but extensive trade agreements and relatively free movement across borders, much as there was between the US and Canada until this year.

But I don't see how the USA will be able to survive another 20 years.
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Jetsgo
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:35 pm

wingman wrote:
United Red States
Predominantly white
Religious-based education
Very low tax base
Pro business and manufacturing
No public healthcare, have job or pay out of pocket
Unlimited weapons ownership from age 16
No abortion
Little to no immigration allowed

United Blue States
Balanced ethnic make-up
Medicare for all
Tax rates 35-60%
Services and High Tech focus
Loose immigration laws
Legalized abortion rights
Ironclad separation of church and state
Strict gun ownership laws requiring licensing, registration etc


wingman wrote:
I disagree completely. There’s no stereotyping whatsoever. The above qualities and values are what drive our two political parties today and what people vote for, and these people include corporations and special interests. Follow the money. To say this is hackneyed or off the mark is naïveté at best or ignorance at worst. Give people a choice and let’s be done with this charade we call the UNITED states. Hatred, division, insults, I say let Trump win on all counts but give those of us on the other side a chance to split peacefully.


Maybe it's not hackneyed, but it's definitely stereotyping. If you're going to create these red and blue fringe states, you're going to need a much larger third state to accommodate the vast majority who actually reside somewhere in the middle. You can be pro choice and pro gun. You can be pro immigration and pro business. Just because you're for lower taxes doesn't mean you want Jesus in the schools. And so on.

I blame the media for the situation we're in today, particularly CNN and Fox News. They continue to push the divide in the name of ratings. Watch any newscast from 20+ years ago and compare it to what you get today - the difference is almost frightening.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:32 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Aloha717200 wrote:
Meanwhile on my trips to California, Oregon and Washington, I see more and more Cascadia Independence flags being flown. I can't blame them.. the President has made clear he doesn't care about the well being of blue states. He cares about loyalty, not lives.


When Gavin Newsom spoke about California as a "Nation-State," I was utterly gobsmacked.

I don't think a civil war in the 1850s sense is something that can happen today. We're too interconnected and modern warfare isn't about handheld firearms anymore. We may see fighting in the streets. One possibility is that hundreds of thousands of people swarm government buildings in Washington, D.C. with Molotov cocktails. The guards and troops can only do so much against such overwhelming numbers of civilians.

But I think that a more likely possibility goes like this: In 2022 or 2024 Republicans, now furious at their loss of power and some perhaps sweeping reforms passed by Democrats, take back the House and announce that they will not do business at all with the President or the (likely Democratic) Senate (the 2024 Senate map offers the GOP one pickup and the DNC two and the 2022 Senate Map offers the DNC four or even five pickups). The government shuts down. And it stays shut down. Months go by and ATC is not paid, the NWS is not funded, the military is not paid and supplies are running short. Eventually, some governors begin to pay unemployment to those workers and after a year, there is a movement to stop paying federal taxes because when the IRS is shut down, who is going to take them? At this point, some states start to consider printing their own currency and taking out loans (most states have Balanced Budget laws) and perhaps even start paying for military equipment and the troops who have now not been paid in many months.

My guess is that Texas might be the first to declare independence, but California/Cascadia could also be first. By this point, the President can scream and shout, but there is no military and no federal enforcement of anything. Across the crumbling US, some people look around themselves and the nascent nation-state in which they reside and quickly migrate to somewhere more suitable for them...and then borders start to close, markets crash and rebound, foreign diplomacy is established, new currencies are minted, and the United States no longer exists.

It seems shocking but even two weeks before the collapse of the Soviet Union, nobody saw it coming. In retrospect, it appears to have been a 20 year process, but I was alive at the time and at 13 or 14 old enough to have a basic grasp of global events. A lot of observers thought it was even a plot to trick the USA into disarming. A collapse of the USA could come just as abruptly.

Some people have argued that this won't work at all and that it would lead to a new Constitutional Convention. After all, the states are so intertwined. Costal states subsidize interstate highways in Idaho and Nebraska because that infrastructure is needed to move goods, but I can't see how this ungovernable nation could agree on any new kind of Constitution. Likely, the result would be something more like Europe in the 1980s. There will be separate countries with separate currencies, but extensive trade agreements and relatively free movement across borders, much as there was between the US and Canada until this year.

But I don't see how the USA will be able to survive another 20 years.


Interesting take on the situation. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, it will be fun watching this happen if it does.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:29 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Aloha717200 wrote:
Meanwhile on my trips to California, Oregon and Washington, I see more and more Cascadia Independence flags being flown. I can't blame them.. the President has made clear he doesn't care about the well being of blue states. He cares about loyalty, not lives.


When Gavin Newsom spoke about California as a "Nation-State," I was utterly gobsmacked.

I don't think a civil war in the 1850s sense is something that can happen today. We're too interconnected and modern warfare isn't about handheld firearms anymore. We may see fighting in the streets. One possibility is that hundreds of thousands of people swarm government buildings in Washington, D.C. with Molotov cocktails. The guards and troops can only do so much against such overwhelming numbers of civilians.

But I think that a more likely possibility goes like this: In 2022 or 2024 Republicans, now furious at their loss of power and some perhaps sweeping reforms passed by Democrats, take back the House and announce that they will not do business at all with the President or the (likely Democratic) Senate (the 2024 Senate map offers the GOP one pickup and the DNC two and the 2022 Senate Map offers the DNC four or even five pickups). The government shuts down. And it stays shut down. Months go by and ATC is not paid, the NWS is not funded, the military is not paid and supplies are running short. Eventually, some governors begin to pay unemployment to those workers and after a year, there is a movement to stop paying federal taxes because when the IRS is shut down, who is going to take them? At this point, some states start to consider printing their own currency and taking out loans (most states have Balanced Budget laws) and perhaps even start paying for military equipment and the troops who have now not been paid in many months.

My guess is that Texas might be the first to declare independence, but California/Cascadia could also be first. By this point, the President can scream and shout, but there is no military and no federal enforcement of anything. Across the crumbling US, some people look around themselves and the nascent nation-state in which they reside and quickly migrate to somewhere more suitable for them...and then borders start to close, markets crash and rebound, foreign diplomacy is established, new currencies are minted, and the United States no longer exists.

It seems shocking but even two weeks before the collapse of the Soviet Union, nobody saw it coming. In retrospect, it appears to have been a 20 year process, but I was alive at the time and at 13 or 14 old enough to have a basic grasp of global events. A lot of observers thought it was even a plot to trick the USA into disarming. A collapse of the USA could come just as abruptly.

Some people have argued that this won't work at all and that it would lead to a new Constitutional Convention. After all, the states are so intertwined. Costal states subsidize interstate highways in Idaho and Nebraska because that infrastructure is needed to move goods, but I can't see how this ungovernable nation could agree on any new kind of Constitution. Likely, the result would be something more like Europe in the 1980s. There will be separate countries with separate currencies, but extensive trade agreements and relatively free movement across borders, much as there was between the US and Canada until this year.

But I don't see how the USA will be able to survive another 20 years.

I think this doesn't take demographics into account, where the right is meaningfully older, more religious, and whiter, and the country is becoming the opposite. But on the other hand I do agree that the USA could collapse much more quickly than people give it credit--we've already seen the guardrails evaporate by a complete moron, never mind a determined, competent leader. And despite the right's fan fic of the country's founding fathers and brief history, there's little that sets it apart from far greater nations/empires that have collapsed before it.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Newark727
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:36 pm

DocLightning wrote:
But I think that a more likely possibility goes like this: In 2022 or 2024 Republicans, now furious at their loss of power and some perhaps sweeping reforms passed by Democrats, take back the House and announce that they will not do business at all with the President or the (likely Democratic) Senate (the 2024 Senate map offers the GOP one pickup and the DNC two and the 2022 Senate Map offers the DNC four or even five pickups). The government shuts down. And it stays shut down. Months go by and ATC is not paid, the NWS is not funded, the military is not paid and supplies are running short. Eventually, some governors begin to pay unemployment to those workers and after a year, there is a movement to stop paying federal taxes because when the IRS is shut down, who is going to take them? At this point, some states start to consider printing their own currency and taking out loans (most states have Balanced Budget laws) and perhaps even start paying for military equipment and the troops who have now not been paid in many months.

My guess is that Texas might be the first to declare independence, but California/Cascadia could also be first. By this point, the President can scream and shout, but there is no military and no federal enforcement of anything. Across the crumbling US, some people look around themselves and the nascent nation-state in which they reside and quickly migrate to somewhere more suitable for them...and then borders start to close, markets crash and rebound, foreign diplomacy is established, new currencies are minted, and the United States no longer exists.


This sounds less like a recipe for secession and more like a recipe for a rapidly evolving and convenient reevaluation of executive power, to be justified by necessity after the fact. Remember, South Carolina didn't think anyone would stop them leaving in 1861 either.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14210
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:42 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Aloha717200 wrote:
Meanwhile on my trips to California, Oregon and Washington, I see more and more Cascadia Independence flags being flown. I can't blame them.. the President has made clear he doesn't care about the well being of blue states. He cares about loyalty, not lives.


When Gavin Newsom spoke about California as a "Nation-State," I was utterly gobsmacked.

I don't think a civil war in the 1850s sense is something that can happen today. We're too interconnected and modern warfare isn't about handheld firearms anymore. We may see fighting in the streets. One possibility is that hundreds of thousands of people swarm government buildings in Washington, D.C. with Molotov cocktails. The guards and troops can only do so much against such overwhelming numbers of civilians.

But I think that a more likely possibility goes like this: In 2022 or 2024 Republicans, now furious at their loss of power and some perhaps sweeping reforms passed by Democrats, take back the House and announce that they will not do business at all with the President or the (likely Democratic) Senate (the 2024 Senate map offers the GOP one pickup and the DNC two and the 2022 Senate Map offers the DNC four or even five pickups). The government shuts down. And it stays shut down. Months go by and ATC is not paid, the NWS is not funded, the military is not paid and supplies are running short. Eventually, some governors begin to pay unemployment to those workers and after a year, there is a movement to stop paying federal taxes because when the IRS is shut down, who is going to take them? At this point, some states start to consider printing their own currency and taking out loans (most states have Balanced Budget laws) and perhaps even start paying for military equipment and the troops who have now not been paid in many months.

My guess is that Texas might be the first to declare independence, but California/Cascadia could also be first. By this point, the President can scream and shout, but there is no military and no federal enforcement of anything. Across the crumbling US, some people look around themselves and the nascent nation-state in which they reside and quickly migrate to somewhere more suitable for them...and then borders start to close, markets crash and rebound, foreign diplomacy is established, new currencies are minted, and the United States no longer exists.

It seems shocking but even two weeks before the collapse of the Soviet Union, nobody saw it coming. In retrospect, it appears to have been a 20 year process, but I was alive at the time and at 13 or 14 old enough to have a basic grasp of global events. A lot of observers thought it was even a plot to trick the USA into disarming. A collapse of the USA could come just as abruptly.

Some people have argued that this won't work at all and that it would lead to a new Constitutional Convention. After all, the states are so intertwined. Costal states subsidize interstate highways in Idaho and Nebraska because that infrastructure is needed to move goods, but I can't see how this ungovernable nation could agree on any new kind of Constitution. Likely, the result would be something more like Europe in the 1980s. There will be separate countries with separate currencies, but extensive trade agreements and relatively free movement across borders, much as there was between the US and Canada until this year.

But I don't see how the USA will be able to survive another 20 years.


Interesting take on the situation. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, it will be fun watching this happen if it does.


It is hyperbole and a stretch at best. I know many in the anti US crowd here want to see this but the chances of anything like this happening is just about zero.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
rfields5421
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:49 pm

Unfortunately, or fortunately, no US state is able to survive alone. California would be hit hard if they declared independence, and the water tap to the Colorado River was turned off. And despite having some oil, they do not have enough to support their economy.

Most of the food production, which they have a lot of, is operated by solid, Trump backing, Republicans. I was amazed at the number of Trump banners across the farming areas of CA, OR and WA in 2017 was we traveled across those areas.

Being a resident of Texas since 1988, raised in Arkansas, most folks in Texas know we depend upon other states for a lot of things. And most important, we depend of other states buying the gasoline, fuel oil and such refined in Texas. There is a great energy, and technology, industry in Texas, but the market is in other states. While Texas is BIG (just drove from El Paso to east of Dallas) much of the state is poorly, minimally, productive. The population is near balanced with Democrats and Republicans. For years in the 60s and 80s, the Republicans just didn't bother to vote, but G "W" Bush led the effort in the early 90s to claim control of the state government for the Republicans. Now voter turnout is heavy among Republicans, and moderate among Democrats. 22 of the 36 members of the House from Texas are Republican. In 2018, the Republicans lost two seats, and might lose the current vacant seat in the special election. At least four additional Republican seats may be lost. That would be 17 Republicans 19 Democrats if it turns out that way.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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seb146
Posts: 23466
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:52 pm

Toronto is not Canada. Which has nothing at all to do with this thread.

Back on topic

https://time.com/5892945/law-enforcemen ... -violence/
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-t ... ion-2020-8
https://www.nny360.com/opinion/columns/ ... 6b74b.html

Violence is how MAGA will stay in power. Not the will of the people. Violence. Beatings. Killings. Looting. By MAGA and self proclaimed "militias". If this is what Republicans want, a military state, fine. Let them reform the Confederacy and have their military run government. Let the adults and patriots run America.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
Posts: 23466
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:56 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
Unfortunately, or fortunately, no US state is able to survive alone. California would be hit hard if they declared independence, and the water tap to the Colorado River was turned off. And despite having some oil, they do not have enough to support their economy.

Most of the food production, which they have a lot of, is operated by solid, Trump backing, Republicans. I was amazed at the number of Trump banners across the farming areas of CA, OR and WA in 2017 was we traveled across those areas.

Being a resident of Texas since 1988, raised in Arkansas, most folks in Texas know we depend upon other states for a lot of things. And most important, we depend of other states buying the gasoline, fuel oil and such refined in Texas. There is a great energy, and technology, industry in Texas, but the market is in other states. While Texas is BIG (just drove from El Paso to east of Dallas) much of the state is poorly, minimally, productive. The population is near balanced with Democrats and Republicans. For years in the 60s and 80s, the Republicans just didn't bother to vote, but G "W" Bush led the effort in the early 90s to claim control of the state government for the Republicans. Now voter turnout is heavy among Republicans, and moderate among Democrats. 22 of the 36 members of the House from Texas are Republican. In 2018, the Republicans lost two seats, and might lose the current vacant seat in the special election. At least four additional Republican seats may be lost. That would be 17 Republicans 19 Democrats if it turns out that way.


Believe it or not, many of the MAGA flags you see are flown from either out of work white people or retired white people. Not the actual field workers, many of who can not vote because they were recruited illegally by multi national corporations.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
SL1200MK2
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:00 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:51 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Aloha717200 wrote:
Meanwhile on my trips to California, Oregon and Washington, I see more and more Cascadia Independence flags being flown. I can't blame them.. the President has made clear he doesn't care about the well being of blue states. He cares about loyalty, not lives.


When Gavin Newsom spoke about California as a "Nation-State," I was utterly gobsmacked.

I don't think a civil war in the 1850s sense is something that can happen today. We're too interconnected and modern warfare isn't about handheld firearms anymore. We may see fighting in the streets. One possibility is that hundreds of thousands of people swarm government buildings in Washington, D.C. with Molotov cocktails. The guards and troops can only do so much against such overwhelming numbers of civilians.

But I think that a more likely possibility goes like this: In 2022 or 2024 Republicans, now furious at their loss of power and some perhaps sweeping reforms passed by Democrats, take back the House and announce that they will not do business at all with the President or the (likely Democratic) Senate (the 2024 Senate map offers the GOP one pickup and the DNC two and the 2022 Senate Map offers the DNC four or even five pickups). The government shuts down. And it stays shut down. Months go by and ATC is not paid, the NWS is not funded, the military is not paid and supplies are running short. Eventually, some governors begin to pay unemployment to those workers and after a year, there is a movement to stop paying federal taxes because when the IRS is shut down, who is going to take them? At this point, some states start to consider printing their own currency and taking out loans (most states have Balanced Budget laws) and perhaps even start paying for military equipment and the troops who have now not been paid in many months.

My guess is that Texas might be the first to declare independence, but California/Cascadia could also be first. By this point, the President can scream and shout, but there is no military and no federal enforcement of anything. Across the crumbling US, some people look around themselves and the nascent nation-state in which they reside and quickly migrate to somewhere more suitable for them...and then borders start to close, markets crash and rebound, foreign diplomacy is established, new currencies are minted, and the United States no longer exists.

It seems shocking but even two weeks before the collapse of the Soviet Union, nobody saw it coming. In retrospect, it appears to have been a 20 year process, but I was alive at the time and at 13 or 14 old enough to have a basic grasp of global events. A lot of observers thought it was even a plot to trick the USA into disarming. A collapse of the USA could come just as abruptly.

Some people have argued that this won't work at all and that it would lead to a new Constitutional Convention. After all, the states are so intertwined. Costal states subsidize interstate highways in Idaho and Nebraska because that infrastructure is needed to move goods, but I can't see how this ungovernable nation could agree on any new kind of Constitution. Likely, the result would be something more like Europe in the 1980s. There will be separate countries with separate currencies, but extensive trade agreements and relatively free movement across borders, much as there was between the US and Canada until this year.

But I don't see how the USA will be able to survive another 20 years.


Interesting take on the situation. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, it will be fun watching this happen if it does.


How come this would be something you would enjoy watching?
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18539
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:08 am

slider wrote:
wingman wrote:
I don't see a civil war breaking out but I'm not sure I see any real downside allowing block of states on either side of the divide decide to leave the union peacefully and form their own country. We could do things at a strategic level such as free trade and open borders like the EU but allow states to vote one by one to decide where they prefer to be. You'd see plenty of migration at that point but to me it makes a lot of sense. We're really not much a nation at this point and I'm not sure I see the downside of letting states and people make a choice. I could see the two countries line up something like this:

United Red States
Predominantly white
Religious-based education
Very low tax base
Pro business and manufacturing
No public healthcare, have job or pay out of pocket
Unlimited weapons ownership from age 16
No abortion
Little to no immigration allowed

United Blue States
Balanced ethnic make-up
Medicare for all
Tax rates 35-60%
Services and High Tech focus
Loose immigration laws
Legalized abortion rights
Ironclad separation of church and state
Strict gun ownership laws requiring licensing, registration etc

Personally I see a lot of happy people and two more prosperous countries as a result. Be with the people you want to be with and live the ideals you preach without insults, intimidation or fear. I'd love to see the West Coast and New England and anyone else who wants to leave join a new union or even ask Canada if they'd have us. I'm game.


Keep stereotyping like this and the chasm will only grow and become more divisive.

How hackneyed.

“Keep describing us accurately and we will only become whiter and ragier!” —our resident very fine people :rotfl:
I don't take responsibility at all
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18539
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:21 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

When Gavin Newsom spoke about California as a "Nation-State," I was utterly gobsmacked.

I don't think a civil war in the 1850s sense is something that can happen today. We're too interconnected and modern warfare isn't about handheld firearms anymore. We may see fighting in the streets. One possibility is that hundreds of thousands of people swarm government buildings in Washington, D.C. with Molotov cocktails. The guards and troops can only do so much against such overwhelming numbers of civilians.

But I think that a more likely possibility goes like this: In 2022 or 2024 Republicans, now furious at their loss of power and some perhaps sweeping reforms passed by Democrats, take back the House and announce that they will not do business at all with the President or the (likely Democratic) Senate (the 2024 Senate map offers the GOP one pickup and the DNC two and the 2022 Senate Map offers the DNC four or even five pickups). The government shuts down. And it stays shut down. Months go by and ATC is not paid, the NWS is not funded, the military is not paid and supplies are running short. Eventually, some governors begin to pay unemployment to those workers and after a year, there is a movement to stop paying federal taxes because when the IRS is shut down, who is going to take them? At this point, some states start to consider printing their own currency and taking out loans (most states have Balanced Budget laws) and perhaps even start paying for military equipment and the troops who have now not been paid in many months.

My guess is that Texas might be the first to declare independence, but California/Cascadia could also be first. By this point, the President can scream and shout, but there is no military and no federal enforcement of anything. Across the crumbling US, some people look around themselves and the nascent nation-state in which they reside and quickly migrate to somewhere more suitable for them...and then borders start to close, markets crash and rebound, foreign diplomacy is established, new currencies are minted, and the United States no longer exists.

It seems shocking but even two weeks before the collapse of the Soviet Union, nobody saw it coming. In retrospect, it appears to have been a 20 year process, but I was alive at the time and at 13 or 14 old enough to have a basic grasp of global events. A lot of observers thought it was even a plot to trick the USA into disarming. A collapse of the USA could come just as abruptly.

Some people have argued that this won't work at all and that it would lead to a new Constitutional Convention. After all, the states are so intertwined. Costal states subsidize interstate highways in Idaho and Nebraska because that infrastructure is needed to move goods, but I can't see how this ungovernable nation could agree on any new kind of Constitution. Likely, the result would be something more like Europe in the 1980s. There will be separate countries with separate currencies, but extensive trade agreements and relatively free movement across borders, much as there was between the US and Canada until this year.

But I don't see how the USA will be able to survive another 20 years.


Interesting take on the situation. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, it will be fun watching this happen if it does.


How come this would be something you would enjoy watching?

Foreigners are feasting on the schadenfreude of the USA installing a corrupt autocrat to destroy their own country. Guessing that’s what Kiwirob is enjoying.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
SL1200MK2
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:00 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:23 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Interesting take on the situation. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, it will be fun watching this happen if it does.


How come this would be something you would enjoy watching?

Foreigners are feasting on the schadenfreude of the USA installing a corrupt autocrat to destroy their own country. Guessing that’s what Kiwirob is enjoying.


Oh that’s really interesting. I’ve always been fascinated when people enjoy seeing bad things happen to others. A lot of trump-type (I know he/she isn’t American) people seem to have lives where maybe it helps get through the day to see others not doing well. I tend to not enjoy these sorts of things but whateves I guess.
 
N867DA
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:18 am

rfields5421 wrote:
Unfortunately, or fortunately, no US state is able to survive alone. California would be hit hard if they declared independence, and the water tap to the Colorado River was turned off. And despite having some oil, they do not have enough to support their economy.

Most of the food production, which they have a lot of, is operated by solid, Trump backing, Republicans. I was amazed at the number of Trump banners across the farming areas of CA, OR and WA in 2017 was we traveled across those areas.

Being a resident of Texas since 1988, raised in Arkansas, most folks in Texas know we depend upon other states for a lot of things. And most important, we depend of other states buying the gasoline, fuel oil and such refined in Texas. There is a great energy, and technology, industry in Texas, but the market is in other states. While Texas is BIG (just drove from El Paso to east of Dallas) much of the state is poorly, minimally, productive. The population is near balanced with Democrats and Republicans. For years in the 60s and 80s, the Republicans just didn't bother to vote, but G "W" Bush led the effort in the early 90s to claim control of the state government for the Republicans. Now voter turnout is heavy among Republicans, and moderate among Democrats. 22 of the 36 members of the House from Texas are Republican. In 2018, the Republicans lost two seats, and might lose the current vacant seat in the special election. At least four additional Republican seats may be lost. That would be 17 Republicans 19 Democrats if it turns out that way.


If every reliably conservative part of the country broke off, it would be a very rural, agricultural area with no major centers of commerce to speak of. If every Democratic leaning area broke off, they would be at the mercy of the world (and former nation) for basic sustenance. I also feel while the parties have switched the South has always been conservative, and cities have always been more liberal--with the notable exception of the Reagan years. Most states would be poorer but more free to chase what they deem to be a 'freedom'.

I don't think any splintering need to violent or even with vitriol. It's just like a couple who, as they aged, realized they want very different things and amicably part. I don't seriously expect solidly liberal cities to close abortion clinics (and expect similar inaction on a couple other things of that divisiveness) even if a court rules it's illegal; so what is the point?
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
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Aesma
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:44 am

Jetsgo wrote:
wingman wrote:
I blame the media for the situation we're in today, particularly CNN and Fox News. They continue to push the divide in the name of ratings. Watch any newscast from 20+ years ago and compare it to what you get today - the difference is almost frightening.


Obama was a very normal president and Fox treated him like shit for 8 years, as if he was doing horrible things day in day out, like wearing a tan suit.

Trump is a very horrible president doing shit day in day out, CNN is just pointing that out.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Sokes
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:16 am

Drafran wrote:
There won't be a civil war like the last one, but there will be violence from both sides and Trump will lap that shit right up. He loves dividing.
...
I also wonder what it might be like splitting up the country now and building a gigantic wall around the United States of Jesusland or whatever they choose to call it. Now that's a wall I can get behind!

Good one. :bouncy:
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:51 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

When Gavin Newsom spoke about California as a "Nation-State," I was utterly gobsmacked.

I don't think a civil war in the 1850s sense is something that can happen today. We're too interconnected and modern warfare isn't about handheld firearms anymore. We may see fighting in the streets. One possibility is that hundreds of thousands of people swarm government buildings in Washington, D.C. with Molotov cocktails. The guards and troops can only do so much against such overwhelming numbers of civilians.

But I think that a more likely possibility goes like this: In 2022 or 2024 Republicans, now furious at their loss of power and some perhaps sweeping reforms passed by Democrats, take back the House and announce that they will not do business at all with the President or the (likely Democratic) Senate (the 2024 Senate map offers the GOP one pickup and the DNC two and the 2022 Senate Map offers the DNC four or even five pickups). The government shuts down. And it stays shut down. Months go by and ATC is not paid, the NWS is not funded, the military is not paid and supplies are running short. Eventually, some governors begin to pay unemployment to those workers and after a year, there is a movement to stop paying federal taxes because when the IRS is shut down, who is going to take them? At this point, some states start to consider printing their own currency and taking out loans (most states have Balanced Budget laws) and perhaps even start paying for military equipment and the troops who have now not been paid in many months.

My guess is that Texas might be the first to declare independence, but California/Cascadia could also be first. By this point, the President can scream and shout, but there is no military and no federal enforcement of anything. Across the crumbling US, some people look around themselves and the nascent nation-state in which they reside and quickly migrate to somewhere more suitable for them...and then borders start to close, markets crash and rebound, foreign diplomacy is established, new currencies are minted, and the United States no longer exists.

It seems shocking but even two weeks before the collapse of the Soviet Union, nobody saw it coming. In retrospect, it appears to have been a 20 year process, but I was alive at the time and at 13 or 14 old enough to have a basic grasp of global events. A lot of observers thought it was even a plot to trick the USA into disarming. A collapse of the USA could come just as abruptly.

Some people have argued that this won't work at all and that it would lead to a new Constitutional Convention. After all, the states are so intertwined. Costal states subsidize interstate highways in Idaho and Nebraska because that infrastructure is needed to move goods, but I can't see how this ungovernable nation could agree on any new kind of Constitution. Likely, the result would be something more like Europe in the 1980s. There will be separate countries with separate currencies, but extensive trade agreements and relatively free movement across borders, much as there was between the US and Canada until this year.

But I don't see how the USA will be able to survive another 20 years.


Interesting take on the situation. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, it will be fun watching this happen if it does.


How come this would be something you would enjoy watching?


Why wouldn’t it be fun?
 
WIederling
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:39 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Why wouldn’t it be fun?


"Pulling someones leg for the sheer fun of seeing it come off."

kind of fun, right? :-))
Murphy is an optimist
 
rfields5421
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:07 pm

N867DA wrote:
If every reliably conservative part of the country broke off, it would be a very rural, agricultural area with no major centers of commerce to speak of. If every Democratic leaning area broke off, they would be at the mercy of the world (and former nation) for basic sustenance. I also feel while the parties have switched the South has always been conservative, and cities have always been more liberal--with the notable exception of the Reagan years. Most states would be poorer but more free to chase what they deem to be a 'freedom'.


The agricultural areas cannot survive in today's world without massive industrial support, which usually comes from solidly Democrat areas. And they cannot survive without markets for their crops.

On that basis, the conservative areas are a lot like the old South which tried to leave the nation in 1860. On objective look at the Civil War shows that the South did not have an industrial base, a transportation base nor a independent market base to sustain a nation. The success of the Union Navy's blockade of the South to prevent their crops from getting to market, and their people and military from receiving manufactured goods strangled the new 'nation' and their armies. The fight was doomed from the start.

Which makes people worse. Like General Robert E Lee, who betrayed his solemn oath given in the name God to defend the nation (United States) even worse traitors because he KNEW the war was lost, yet still chose to lead millions of poorly trained men to slaughter.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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seb146
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:30 pm

meecrob wrote:
Back on topic, I do not see a civil war happening due to that fact that "red" or "blue" states are not homogeneous. This is very different from a simple "do you believe Blacks should be property of Whites?" That question is very basic when compared to the question of "should the President manipulate the laws in their favour to maintain power?" The (democratic - and I mean theory, not party) President should absolutely manipulate laws to maintain power if a dictator was trying to gain power, but the definition of "dictator" is up to personal interpretation.


A dictator is someone who believes they have absolute power, so the definition is not up to personal interpretation. Under the umbrella of dictator, we are on the verge of fascism

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/yes-tr ... c4cd577755
http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umbe ... scism.html

There is a very specific sector of the Republican party who do believe that minorities should know their place. Minorities should just move to the back of the bus and be quiet. Look how triggered they got when people started saying that Black Lives Matter also. They were so triggered, they started excluding Black Lives by saying "NO!!! ALL LIVES MATTER!!!"

Every election here in Oregon, the right runs on "kick out Portland politicians" but when they are elected, they go along with Portland politicians. They know that taxation is socialist. The small area that pays taxes funds the large areas that pay little to no taxes.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
ItnStln
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Jetsgo wrote:
wingman wrote:
United Red States
Predominantly white
Religious-based education
Very low tax base
Pro business and manufacturing
No public healthcare, have job or pay out of pocket
Unlimited weapons ownership from age 16
No abortion
Little to no immigration allowed

United Blue States
Balanced ethnic make-up
Medicare for all
Tax rates 35-60%
Services and High Tech focus
Loose immigration laws
Legalized abortion rights
Ironclad separation of church and state
Strict gun ownership laws requiring licensing, registration etc


wingman wrote:
I disagree completely. There’s no stereotyping whatsoever. The above qualities and values are what drive our two political parties today and what people vote for, and these people include corporations and special interests. Follow the money. To say this is hackneyed or off the mark is naïveté at best or ignorance at worst. Give people a choice and let’s be done with this charade we call the UNITED states. Hatred, division, insults, I say let Trump win on all counts but give those of us on the other side a chance to split peacefully.


Maybe it's not hackneyed, but it's definitely stereotyping. If you're going to create these red and blue fringe states, you're going to need a much larger third state to accommodate the vast majority who actually reside somewhere in the middle. You can be pro choice and pro gun. You can be pro immigration and pro business. Just because you're for lower taxes doesn't mean you want Jesus in the schools. And so on.

I blame the media for the situation we're in today, particularly CNN and Fox News. They continue to push the divide in the name of ratings. Watch any newscast from 20+ years ago and compare it to what you get today - the difference is almost frightening.

It is both hackneyed and stereotyping
 
ItnStln
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:22 pm

Aesma wrote:
Jetsgo wrote:
wingman wrote:
I blame the media for the situation we're in today, particularly CNN and Fox News. They continue to push the divide in the name of ratings. Watch any newscast from 20+ years ago and compare it to what you get today - the difference is almost frightening.


Obama was a very normal president and Fox treated him like shit for 8 years, as if he was doing horrible things day in day out, like wearing a tan suit.

Trump is a very horrible president doing shit day in day out, CNN is just pointing that out.

Wrong obama was a horrible president!
 
ItnStln
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:24 pm

wingman wrote:
I disagree completely. There’s no stereotyping whatsoever. The above qualities and values are what drive our two political parties today and what people vote for, and these people include corporations and special interests. Follow the money. To say this is hackneyed or off the mark is naïveté at best or ignorance at worst. Give people a choice and let’s be done with this charade we call the UNITED states. Hatred, division, insults, I say let Trump win on all counts but give those of us on the other side a chance to split peacefully.

There is stereotyping. Your post was not only wrong but offensive too. To say your post isn't hackneyed or stereotyping is ignorance.
 
Drafran
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:04 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
IFlyTWA wrote:
How sad that this is being thought of as a possibility, however remote.

This is the United States of America. Is it perfect? No. Will it ever be perfect? Not as long as humans are humans. It is a damn good place to live? Hek yes.

How many people have betrayed other countries, left friends and families behind, just for the chance to live here? So many people that I know would give anything for a chance to be a U.S. citizen.

I can’t believe that we’ve let politicians and the actions of idiots from whatever “side” they are on drag the majority of this nation into doubt. You can feel it talking amongst people here. It’s really sad. One can’t make 100% of the nation content, but we sure could knock out most of the morale draining nonsense quickly.


I agree. Like I said, only a fool would wish for war and for this country to be split into separate nations. Also saying and wishing you could go back in time to stop Lincoln from forming the confederate is pretty messed up and wrong. Lincoln was the most influential and important president. Lincoln and this country were for ordained by God and to say things like this is absolutely absurd. Slavery, war, and everything that comes with that are the absolute worst forms of evil. Imagine what this country would be like without Lincoln and his guidance and inspiration. Would be worse than it is today. This country might not even exist without Lincoln. And for all the people who say that might be a good thing, go live in North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, and see how much you like a socialist life. Or heck move to Norway, Switzerland, or Canada.


You have a right to your own opinion, just like everyone else. But when you start throwing out nonsense like "ordained by God" you've lost all credibility with your delusional nonsense. I love how you people are all about freedom of speech, unless you disagree with that speech. I wouldn't go anywhere but here. It's my duty to irritate you people. Don't like it? The door's that-a-way!
 
Drafran
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:19 pm

ItnStln wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Jetsgo wrote:


Obama was a very normal president and Fox treated him like shit for 8 years, as if he was doing horrible things day in day out, like wearing a tan suit.https://secure-assets.rubiconproject.co ... nk/1x1.png

Trump is a very horrible president doing shit day in day out, CNN is just pointing that out.

Wrong obama was a horrible president!


That us your opinion. Rational people disagree.
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:21 pm

Drafran wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
IFlyTWA wrote:
How sad that this is being thought of as a possibility, however remote.

This is the United States of America. Is it perfect? No. Will it ever be perfect? Not as long as humans are humans. It is a damn good place to live? Hek yes.

How many people have betrayed other countries, left friends and families behind, just for the chance to live here? So many people that I know would give anything for a chance to be a U.S. citizen.

I can’t believe that we’ve let politicians and the actions of idiots from whatever “side” they are on drag the majority of this nation into doubt. You can feel it talking amongst people here. It’s really sad. One can’t make 100% of the nation content, but we sure could knock out most of the morale draining nonsense quickly.


I agree. Like I said, only a fool would wish for war and for this country to be split into separate nations. Also saying and wishing you could go back in time to stop Lincoln from forming the confederate is pretty messed up and wrong. Lincoln was the most influential and important president. Lincoln and this country were for ordained by God and to say things like this is absolutely absurd. Slavery, war, and everything that comes with that are the absolute worst forms of evil. Imagine what this country would be like without Lincoln and his guidance and inspiration. Would be worse than it is today. This country might not even exist without Lincoln. And for all the people who say that might be a good thing, go live in North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, and see how much you like a socialist life. Or heck move to Norway, Switzerland, or Canada.


You have a right to your own opinion, just like everyone else. But when you start throwing out nonsense like "ordained by God" you've lost all credibility with your delusional nonsense. I love how you people are all about freedom of speech, unless you disagree with that speech. I wouldn't go anywhere but here. It's my duty to irritate you people. Don't like it? The door's that-a-way!


Haha you’re funny and hilarious. Never did I once get offended by what anyone said. I said it’s foolish to wish for war or to predict how a wishful war would go. As someone who has seen the evil affects of war and dealt with it first hand post war, I laugh and cringe at 98% of the comments here. Because of my service you have the right Of freedom of speech. Don’t like it? The doors that-a-way!
 
ItnStln
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:17 pm

Drafran wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Obama was a very normal president and Fox treated him like shit for 8 years, as if he was doing horrible things day in day out, like wearing a tan suit.https://secure-assets.rubiconproject.co ... nk/1x1.png

Trump is a very horrible president doing shit day in day out, CNN is just pointing that out.

Wrong obama was a horrible president!


That us your opinion. Rational people disagree.

I know plenty of rational people who state that obama was a horrible president. To say he was not a horrible preside t is your opinion and nothing more.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:25 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Obama was a very normal president and Fox treated him like shit for 8 years, as if he was doing horrible things day in day out, like wearing a tan suit.

Trump is a very horrible president doing shit day in day out, CNN is just pointing that out.

Wrong obama was a horrible president!

If Obama was white we probably would not have had Trump, but a mediocre middle of the road president that happened to be a black man clearly drove white republicans into such an unhinged mad cow frenzy that Trump’s promised white rage seemed like the cure for all that ailed them. LBJ said “If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.” Obama turned that on its head, and it was simply too much republicans to handle and their white rage blew up like a nuclear bomb—and now Trump is picking their pockets—all of our pockets.


Yep true to your far left wing opinions anyone who criticizes Obama is a racist. That term racist has even less meaning than the boy that cried wolf. It has that little meaning anymore because you liberals throw that term out at anyone who disagrees with you. Obama in my opinion was far from the messiah that you leftists make him out to be. He was not the worst president either he was and is an excellent orator probably the best I have seen in a President. But he was not a president who united the country he was actually the one who started this racial divide not because he was black but by his own actions in office. Trump of course doubled down on it. Of course the MSM had Obamas back as well he was a media darling so no criticism was coming his way.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:23 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Interesting take on the situation. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, it will be fun watching this happen if it does.


How come this would be something you would enjoy watching?


Why wouldn’t it be fun?


Well, I suppose because it would mean that people would most likely be suffering. I have a feeling that you know this and simply enjoy seeing bad things happen to people. Suit yourself I suppose. Just seems like a strange thing to enjoy.
 
Drafran
Posts: 51
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:18 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Drafran wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:

I agree. Like I said, only a fool would wish for war and for this country to be split into separate nations. Also saying and wishing you could go back in time to stop Lincoln from forming the confederate is pretty messed up and wrong. Lincoln was the most influential and important president. Lincoln and this country were for ordained by God and to say things like this is absolutely absurd. Slavery, war, and everything that comes with that are the absolute worst forms of evil. Imagine what this country would be like without Lincoln and his guidance and inspiration. Would be worse than it is today. This country might not even exist without Lincoln. And for all the people who say that might be a good thing, go live in North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, and see how much you like a socialist life. Or heck move to Norway, Switzerland, or Canada.


You have a right to your own opinion, just like everyone else. But when you start throwing out nonsense like "ordained by God" you've lost all credibility with your delusional nonsense. I love how you people are all about freedom of speech, unless you disagree with that speech. I wouldn't go anywhere but here. It's my duty to irritate you people. Don't like it? The door's that-a-way!


Haha you’re funny and hilarious. Never did I once get offended by what anyone said. I said it’s foolish to wish for war or to predict how a wishful war would go. As someone who has seen the evil affects of war and dealt with it first hand post war, I laugh and cringe at 98% of the comments here. Because of my service you have the right Of freedom of speech. Don’t like it? The doors that-a-way!


Doesn't bother me in the least. It's a case of mind over matter: I don't mind cuz you don't matter.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:43 am

ItnStln wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Jetsgo wrote:


Obama was a very normal president and Fox treated him like shit for 8 years, as if he was doing horrible things day in day out, like wearing a tan suit.

Trump is a very horrible president doing shit day in day out, CNN is just pointing that out.

Wrong obama was a horrible president!


What did Obama do that was so horrible?
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13386
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:49 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:

How come this would be something you would enjoy watching?


Why wouldn’t it be fun?


Well, I suppose because it would mean that people would most likely be suffering. I have a feeling that you know this and simply enjoy seeing bad things happen to people. Suit yourself I suppose. Just seems like a strange thing to enjoy.


I don't think many if any will be physically hurt, maybe emotionally or financially but it's time for Americas dominance of world affairs to end. The last few years have proven that you're not worthy of that global leadership role.
 
ItnStln
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:47 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Drafran wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:

I agree. Like I said, only a fool would wish for war and for this country to be split into separate nations. Also saying and wishing you could go back in time to stop Lincoln from forming the confederate is pretty messed up and wrong. Lincoln was the most influential and important president. Lincoln and this country were for ordained by God and to say things like this is absolutely absurd. Slavery, war, and everything that comes with that are the absolute worst forms of evil. Imagine what this country would be like without Lincoln and his guidance and inspiration. Would be worse than it is today. This country might not even exist without Lincoln. And for all the people who say that might be a good thing, go live in North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, and see how much you like a socialist life. Or heck move to Norway, Switzerland, or Canada.


You have a right to your own opinion, just like everyone else. But when you start throwing out nonsense like "ordained by God" you've lost all credibility with your delusional nonsense. I love how you people are all about freedom of speech, unless you disagree with that speech. I wouldn't go anywhere but here. It's my duty to irritate you people. Don't like it? The door's that-a-way!


Haha you’re funny and hilarious. Never did I once get offended by what anyone said. I said it’s foolish to wish for war or to predict how a wishful war would go. As someone who has seen the evil affects of war and dealt with it first hand post war, I laugh and cringe at 98% of the comments here. Because of my service you have the right Of freedom of speech. Don’t like it? The doors that-a-way!

This! They can't debate with facts so they call everyone who disagrees with them a racist.
 
ItnStln
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:49 pm

stratosphere wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
Wrong obama was a horrible president!

If Obama was white we probably would not have had Trump, but a mediocre middle of the road president that happened to be a black man clearly drove white republicans into such an unhinged mad cow frenzy that Trump’s promised white rage seemed like the cure for all that ailed them. LBJ said “If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.” Obama turned that on its head, and it was simply too much republicans to handle and their white rage blew up like a nuclear bomb—and now Trump is picking their pockets—all of our pockets.


Yep true to your far left wing opinions anyone who criticizes Obama is a racist. That term racist has even less meaning than the boy that cried wolf. It has that little meaning anymore because you liberals throw that term out at anyone who disagrees with you. Obama in my opinion was far from the messiah that you leftists make him out to be. He was not the worst president either he was and is an excellent orator probably the best I have seen in a President. But he was not a president who united the country he was actually the one who started this racial divide not because he was black but by his own actions in office. Trump of course doubled down on it. Of course the MSM had Obamas back as well he was a media darling so no criticism was coming his way.

Indeed, and that is why the term "racist" doesn't matter anymore.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18539
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:12 pm

ItnStln wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
If Obama was white we probably would not have had Trump, but a mediocre middle of the road president that happened to be a black man clearly drove white republicans into such an unhinged mad cow frenzy that Trump’s promised white rage seemed like the cure for all that ailed them. LBJ said “If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.” Obama turned that on its head, and it was simply too much republicans to handle and their white rage blew up like a nuclear bomb—and now Trump is picking their pockets—all of our pockets.


Yep true to your far left wing opinions anyone who criticizes Obama is a racist. That term racist has even less meaning than the boy that cried wolf. It has that little meaning anymore because you liberals throw that term out at anyone who disagrees with you. Obama in my opinion was far from the messiah that you leftists make him out to be. He was not the worst president either he was and is an excellent orator probably the best I have seen in a President. But he was not a president who united the country he was actually the one who started this racial divide not because he was black but by his own actions in office. Trump of course doubled down on it. Of course the MSM had Obamas back as well he was a media darling so no criticism was coming his way.

Indeed, and that is why the term "racist" doesn't matter anymore.

Uh huh. And Nazis to this day still think they were doing the right thing.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
ItnStln
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Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:15 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

Yep true to your far left wing opinions anyone who criticizes Obama is a racist. That term racist has even less meaning than the boy that cried wolf. It has that little meaning anymore because you liberals throw that term out at anyone who disagrees with you. Obama in my opinion was far from the messiah that you leftists make him out to be. He was not the worst president either he was and is an excellent orator probably the best I have seen in a President. But he was not a president who united the country he was actually the one who started this racial divide not because he was black but by his own actions in office. Trump of course doubled down on it. Of course the MSM had Obamas back as well he was a media darling so no criticism was coming his way.

Indeed, and that is why the term "racist" doesn't matter anymore.

Uh huh. And Nazis to this day still think they were doing the right thing.

What does that have to do with your ilk calling those who criticize obama racist despite having no proof that such criticism is due to racism?
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18539
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:27 pm

ItnStln wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
Indeed, and that is why the term "racist" doesn't matter anymore.

Uh huh. And Nazis to this day still think they were doing the right thing.

What does that have to do with your ilk calling those who criticize obama racist despite having no proof that such criticism is due to racism?

Not what I said. Criticizing Obama is not necessarily racist--significant part of the left criticizes or outright hates him. Supporting a racist--ie Trump--makes you racist. I would never expect the actual racists in a million years to admit they were racist, because that would require a modicum of self awareness.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
ItnStln
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:34 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Uh huh. And Nazis to this day still think they were doing the right thing.

What does that have to do with your ilk calling those who criticize obama racist despite having no proof that such criticism is due to racism?

Not what I said. Criticizing Obama is not necessarily racist--significant part of the left criticizes or outright hates him. Supporting a racist--ie Trump--makes you racist. I would never expect the actual racists in a million years to admit they were racist, because that would require a modicum of self awareness.

Following your logic supporting biden would make you a hair sniffing pedophile who gropes women and is a racist
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18539
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Possibility of second Civil War in US and State Borders

Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:05 pm

ItnStln wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
What does that have to do with your ilk calling those who criticize obama racist despite having no proof that such criticism is due to racism?

Not what I said. Criticizing Obama is not necessarily racist--significant part of the left criticizes or outright hates him. Supporting a racist--ie Trump--makes you racist. I would never expect the actual racists in a million years to admit they were racist, because that would require a modicum of self awareness.

Following your logic supporting biden would make you a hair sniffing pedophile who gropes women and is a racist

Seeing as little of that is true and none of it is a policy position, you're gonna have to try again. Biden's past racism is well debated but he's progressed, while the GOP has regressed. If he gropes women what does that make Trump with dozens more accusations plus admitting to it on tape? Besides a bog standard republican... :rotfl:
I don't take responsibility at all

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