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75driver
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Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:06 am

For those who may have picked up on a post I made in the aviation forum, here is the back story.

My wife’s alumni group started a weekly zoom meeting to reconnect with old friends and exchange stories during the COVId pandemic. One of her alums teaches English in Beijing along with her daughter. I’ve been able to sit in and observe the chats which have been interesting but the lady and her daughter who teach in China have been most revealing. The mother got caught out of the country right before the lockdowns (February) and is stranded in Phuket not allowed to return. He daughter was still in China and was not kicked out. During a chat a couple weeks ago she mentioned the northern section of Beijing was under a new lockdown. Her daughter said hospitals were packed and the military secured the area. Of course there is zero media or news coverage about it. Normally she would not be able to say this online for fear of the ChiComm authorities finding out. However, her and her daughter developed some kind of code in order to communicate while the mother was stuck in Phuket. She was able to freely pass it on while stuck in the Philippines with no fear of retribution, I hope.

Bottom line, don’t believe a word from Chinese authorities regarding COVId, their infections or deaths or any information for that matter. They booted all western media months ago and haven’t reported data in forever. If anyone believes the numbers posted at John’s Hopkins for China you’re sadly mistaken. Think about it. The country spawning the virus with a huge population is now listed in the bottom 1/4 of world COVId cases/deaths. It defies logic and obviously untrue.
Last edited by SQ22 on Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added rumour to title
 
extender
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Re: China Lying About COVId Numbers and Lockdowns

Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:49 am

The Global Covid website was updated within the last few weeks (to my surprise), they show 90,424 cases.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
 
flyguy89
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:48 pm

Oh 100% they are lying. I don't think anyone ever believed the official numbers they've been putting out.
 
meecrob
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:19 pm

While China is almost certainly manipulating their infection/death statistics, one cannot discount the power of a dictatorship to squash stupidity such as not wearing masks.

Edited to add: Enough with blaming China for spreading the virus. If it started in the western world, we would all be spitting venom if China blamed us for the pandemic saying "ok, so tell us, how do you stop a virus we literally just discovered?"
 
continental004
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:06 pm

When it comes to China’s numbers I have three words.

Lies, fairytales, and fallacies.
 
meecrob
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:19 pm

But we saw China build numerous hospitals, conduct brutal lockdowns, etc. Things that objectively would reduce the spread of the virus at the expense of personal liberty. It would be silly to discount those things. There are times when military dictatorship has benefits. Pandemics are one of them. World War III would be another. So its a fine line...I don't know the correct answer, but I can say that there aren't huge groups of Chinese citizens not wearing masks because "my freedoms!!!" To re-iterate, I whole-heartedly believe the numbers expressed by the Chinese government are manipulated.
 
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c933103
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:14 pm

meecrob wrote:
But we saw China build numerous hospitals, conduct brutal lockdowns, etc. Things that objectively would reduce the spread of the virus at the expense of personal liberty. It would be silly to discount those things. There are times when military dictatorship has benefits. Pandemics are one of them. World War III would be another. So its a fine line...I don't know the correct answer, but I can say that there aren't huge groups of Chinese citizens not wearing masks because "my freedoms!!!" To re-iterate, I whole-heartedly believe the numbers expressed by the Chinese government are manipulated.

On the other hand, in Xinjiang region of China, they have enforced the strictest lockdown even by Chinese standard, even with iron bars being installed outside people's home to ensure no one get to leave their home, yet its "second wave" still last far longer than other places in China, that indicate China either overreporting the current situation of places where ethnic minorities concentrate or underreporting situation elsewhere
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meecrob
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:50 pm

For sure! I'm totally not trying to say China is 100% accurate on their reporting. Clearly their iron grip on the populace involves manipulating death rates. But I do think that their measures (which would not at all stand in a democratic country) have reduced their rates. Forcing people to isolate is clearly going to lead to less transmission of the virus than trying to open up the country. The question of course is how much will the people tolerate.

Edited to add: I meant to be more clear..China is just like the US in its blaming of things on the minorities. So the majority can't deal with minorities? clearly the people in charge are not supreme if they cannot accommodate minorities and give them basic healthcare. The virus isn't racist...it'll jump to a white guy from a "dirty Mexican" and vice versa. This whole debate seems to me like something that happened in late 30's Germany, not something relevant to the present.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:40 pm

Rumors? They simply stopped counting sometime late Febraury.
 
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lugie
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:24 pm

Oh, I absolutely believe that. It's borderline insane to give credence to a regime like China's and more so if the lying they do is so blatantly obvious. Like if you're going to fake numbers, at least try and put the fake tallies at a somewhat imaginable number.

I'm not discounting the fact that a hardcore autocratic regime like the PRC would maybe be better equipped to quell the spread of a pandemic than western democracies with constitutions and human rights but... 85,000 infected and 4,600 deaths in a country home to around 18% of the worldwide population?? Come on.


Sometimes dictators just get too daring with their lies... I feel the same way about Lukashenko in Belarus, like why claim you won with 85% of the vote when all pre-election polls had you trail 20-80? Say you won 55% of the vote and people might believe you.
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Cadet985
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:38 pm

Wuhan has a population of almost 12 million. 80,000 people died from COVID-19. That’s 0.6666%. They locked that city down. On a normal day in the winter, more people in NYC are home sick with the flu than that.

I haven’t believed a single word the Chinese government has said about COVID.

There is no way that China is being honest with their numbers.

Worldometers currently has China at number 44 in the world in terms of infections. Bolivia, for example is 28. They have a population of almost 12 million. No. The math doesn’t add up.

And because China essentially had a totalitarian government, the world can’t prove them wrong.

Marc
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:00 pm

meecrob wrote:
For sure! I'm totally not trying to say China is 100% accurate on their reporting. Clearly their iron grip on the populace involves manipulating death rates. But I do think that their measures (which would not at all stand in a democratic country) have reduced their rates. Forcing people to isolate is clearly going to lead to less transmission of the virus than trying to open up the country. The question of course is how much will the people tolerate.

Edited to add: I meant to be more clear..China is just like the US in its blaming of things on the minorities. So the majority can't deal with minorities? clearly the people in charge are not supreme if they cannot accommodate minorities and give them basic healthcare. The virus isn't racist...it'll jump to a white guy from a "dirty Mexican" and vice versa. This whole debate seems to me like something that happened in late 30's Germany, not something relevant to the present.

It's just such a pointless discussion really. Whether you believe China is telling the truth or lying, doesn't make a lick of difference as to what is happening in your neck of the woods. OK so China is lying about everything--now what? We still have 200,000 deaths and climbing with no end in sight.
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c933103
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:56 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
meecrob wrote:
For sure! I'm totally not trying to say China is 100% accurate on their reporting. Clearly their iron grip on the populace involves manipulating death rates. But I do think that their measures (which would not at all stand in a democratic country) have reduced their rates. Forcing people to isolate is clearly going to lead to less transmission of the virus than trying to open up the country. The question of course is how much will the people tolerate.

Edited to add: I meant to be more clear..China is just like the US in its blaming of things on the minorities. So the majority can't deal with minorities? clearly the people in charge are not supreme if they cannot accommodate minorities and give them basic healthcare. The virus isn't racist...it'll jump to a white guy from a "dirty Mexican" and vice versa. This whole debate seems to me like something that happened in late 30's Germany, not something relevant to the present.

It's just such a pointless discussion really. Whether you believe China is telling the truth or lying, doesn't make a lick of difference as to what is happening in your neck of the woods. OK so China is lying about everything--now what? We still have 200,000 deaths and climbing with no end in sight.

If we accept China is lying then we should stop using "China experience as role model of how to deal with the pandemic" and stop letting their propaganda affect decision making process in the West. Especially regarding strategy of lockdown enforcement.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:46 pm

c933103 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
meecrob wrote:
For sure! I'm totally not trying to say China is 100% accurate on their reporting. Clearly their iron grip on the populace involves manipulating death rates. But I do think that their measures (which would not at all stand in a democratic country) have reduced their rates. Forcing people to isolate is clearly going to lead to less transmission of the virus than trying to open up the country. The question of course is how much will the people tolerate.

Edited to add: I meant to be more clear..China is just like the US in its blaming of things on the minorities. So the majority can't deal with minorities? clearly the people in charge are not supreme if they cannot accommodate minorities and give them basic healthcare. The virus isn't racist...it'll jump to a white guy from a "dirty Mexican" and vice versa. This whole debate seems to me like something that happened in late 30's Germany, not something relevant to the present.

It's just such a pointless discussion really. Whether you believe China is telling the truth or lying, doesn't make a lick of difference as to what is happening in your neck of the woods. OK so China is lying about everything--now what? We still have 200,000 deaths and climbing with no end in sight.

If we accept China is lying then we should stop using "China experience as role model of how to deal with the pandemic" and stop letting their propaganda affect decision making process in the West. Especially regarding strategy of lockdown enforcement.

Is anyone really doing that? The West simply can't do many of the things China has done to contain the virus, regardless of whether they are being truthful or not.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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c933103
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:22 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It's just such a pointless discussion really. Whether you believe China is telling the truth or lying, doesn't make a lick of difference as to what is happening in your neck of the woods. OK so China is lying about everything--now what? We still have 200,000 deaths and climbing with no end in sight.

If we accept China is lying then we should stop using "China experience as role model of how to deal with the pandemic" and stop letting their propaganda affect decision making process in the West. Especially regarding strategy of lockdown enforcement.

Is anyone really doing that? The West simply can't do many of the things China has done to contain the virus, regardless of whether they are being truthful or not.

I think most who usef lockdown to deal with the current coronavirus copied the idea from China. Of course it's effective, but it's like an ultimatum with so many other options that can be used before lockdown need to be enforced. And now even some of those lesser measures are being described as partial lockdown. In Hong Kong, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, there have been multiple waves of outbreak already but none required lockdown. General measures include handwashing, mask up, no large gathering, avoid enclosed space and improve ventilation, social distancing, and avoid travelling to/from area with developing clusters/case count as well as quarantine and/or track and test those have recently travelled from high risk countries, and then add necessary infection prevention measure into as well as imposing some limitation against restaurants, night club, schools, and other high risk facilities should already be enough to tame the virus at least as of current stage.

Lock down is a lazy catch all policy trying to completely halt the virus transmission by halting any movement in the society, but the goal cannot realistically ne achieved because even at the height of lockdown in Wuhan or Xinjiang, public and essential service workers still need to go out and contact everyone to make delivery to supply food and other necessities to people in the city as well as keeping the infrastructure and medical system of the city running. Most Western countries aren't even trying to get to this goal, but under influence of promotion that say "China's success in fighting coronavirus", many of them still keep using lockdown as a mean to deal with the virus, or even usingvthe angle of partial lockdown to describe other lesser restriction.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:35 pm

c933103 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
If we accept China is lying then we should stop using "China experience as role model of how to deal with the pandemic" and stop letting their propaganda affect decision making process in the West. Especially regarding strategy of lockdown enforcement.

Is anyone really doing that? The West simply can't do many of the things China has done to contain the virus, regardless of whether they are being truthful or not.

I think most who usef lockdown to deal with the current coronavirus copied the idea from China.

Lockdowns and quarantine long predate whatever China was or wasn't doing
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stratosphere
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:04 pm

c933103 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
If we accept China is lying then we should stop using "China experience as role model of how to deal with the pandemic" and stop letting their propaganda affect decision making process in the West. Especially regarding strategy of lockdown enforcement.

Is anyone really doing that? The West simply can't do many of the things China has done to contain the virus, regardless of whether they are being truthful or not.

I think most who usef lockdown to deal with the current coronavirus copied the idea from China. Of course it's effective, but it's like an ultimatum with so many other options that can be used before lockdown need to be enforced. And now even some of those lesser measures are being described as partial lockdown. In Hong Kong, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, there have been multiple waves of outbreak already but none required lockdown. General measures include handwashing, mask up, no large gathering, avoid enclosed space and improve ventilation, social distancing, and avoid travelling to/from area with developing clusters/case count as well as quarantine and/or track and test those have recently travelled from high risk countries, and then add necessary infection prevention measure into as well as imposing some limitation against restaurants, night club, schools, and other high risk facilities should already be enough to tame the virus at least as of current stage.

Lock down is a lazy catch all policy trying to completely halt the virus transmission by halting any movement in the society, but the goal cannot realistically ne achieved because even at the height of lockdown in Wuhan or Xinjiang, public and essential service workers still need to go out and contact everyone to make delivery to supply food and other necessities to people in the city as well as keeping the infrastructure and medical system of the city running. Most Western countries aren't even trying to get to this goal, but under influence of promotion that say "China's success in fighting coronavirus", many of them still keep using lockdown as a mean to deal with the virus, or even usingvthe angle of partial lockdown to describe other lesser restriction.


All lockdowns do is kick the can down the road. The virus reappears as soon as you open things back up. Our economy cannot sustain lockdowns. Of course it's pretty transparent the Democrats and liberals want to destroy the economy as long as Trump as at the helm and peoples suffering be damned. I am a high risk person and I am a believer in the virus but even I can see what is going on here. There is far more damage and life loss being done by forcing isolation on people than the virus could ever do. I am self isolating as a high risk person and when I am around people usually only people I know I still do social distancing. The numbers are being inflated in my opinion but I am not a denier I know it's out there and dangerous. I wear my mask but I think keeping people like me locked down makes more sense than the whole economy. It's a balance.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:32 pm

We are never going to know the truth of how Covid-19 affected China, how many were ill with or died from it. In parts it will be due to a need to keep control of their citizens and not make their party leaders look bad. If China was more transparent about the early stages of infections and deaths from Covid-19, its spread outside to the world could have been limited from doing the damage that it would do as other countries could have put in preventive measures earlier.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:54 pm

stratosphere wrote:
c933103 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Is anyone really doing that? The West simply can't do many of the things China has done to contain the virus, regardless of whether they are being truthful or not.

I think most who usef lockdown to deal with the current coronavirus copied the idea from China. Of course it's effective, but it's like an ultimatum with so many other options that can be used before lockdown need to be enforced. And now even some of those lesser measures are being described as partial lockdown. In Hong Kong, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, there have been multiple waves of outbreak already but none required lockdown. General measures include handwashing, mask up, no large gathering, avoid enclosed space and improve ventilation, social distancing, and avoid travelling to/from area with developing clusters/case count as well as quarantine and/or track and test those have recently travelled from high risk countries, and then add necessary infection prevention measure into as well as imposing some limitation against restaurants, night club, schools, and other high risk facilities should already be enough to tame the virus at least as of current stage.

Lock down is a lazy catch all policy trying to completely halt the virus transmission by halting any movement in the society, but the goal cannot realistically ne achieved because even at the height of lockdown in Wuhan or Xinjiang, public and essential service workers still need to go out and contact everyone to make delivery to supply food and other necessities to people in the city as well as keeping the infrastructure and medical system of the city running. Most Western countries aren't even trying to get to this goal, but under influence of promotion that say "China's success in fighting coronavirus", many of them still keep using lockdown as a mean to deal with the virus, or even usingvthe angle of partial lockdown to describe other lesser restriction.


All lockdowns do is kick the can down the road. The virus reappears as soon as you open things back up. Our economy cannot sustain lockdowns. Of course it's pretty transparent the Democrats and liberals want to destroy the economy as long as Trump as at the helm and peoples suffering be damned.

Dumb. Who is president again? He's managed to kill 200,000 *and* the economy *and* Herman Cain *and* probably his brother, so well done all around. Florida and Texas have reimposed lockdowns multiple times because anyone with a brain knows if you don't get control of the virus, the economy will not follow. Florida is almost guaranteed to have to do it another time before the snowbirds even arrive for Thanksgiving.
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c933103
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:53 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Is anyone really doing that? The West simply can't do many of the things China has done to contain the virus, regardless of whether they are being truthful or not.

I think most who usef lockdown to deal with the current coronavirus copied the idea from China.

Lockdowns and quarantine long predate whatever China was or wasn't doing

Onviously, but not such form of application
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Rumour China Lying About COVID Numbers and Lockdowns

Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:17 pm

c933103 wrote:
...
If we accept China is lying then we should stop using "China experience as role model of how to deal with the pandemic" and stop letting their propaganda affect decision making process in the West. Especially regarding strategy of lockdown enforcement.


General rule of thumb, China is not a role model on anything to anyone.
All posts are just opinions.

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