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Blurp2
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Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:31 pm

I've been having an interesting conversation with Dutchy in my "Favorite Justice" thread, about politics and how they differ from country to country. Way off topic but fascinating to me. And so I'm wondering: in your country, from your perspective, what are the best three examples of "extreme left" positions - so far left they scare you?

To me, in the US, I would say:

1) Defund the police.
2) Lower our military commitments to cover only defense against Canada and Mexico. (In other words, let the world go to hell.)
3) Mandate Critical Race Theory training for everyone.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:56 pm

The far left party is pretty moderate in my country. It was created from the merger of a number of communist and socialist parties that rebranded and restyled themselves as a red-green party. They want better pensions, more money for welfare and hospitals, foreign aid etc., all pretty normal stuff. The two biggest issues is that they flirt with dangerous brexit ideas, similar to the extreme right, and they embrace immigration from the Middle East and Africa.

There are a few die-hard communist parties run by some old farts still around, but they are never taken seriously by anyone and won't win any seats in the parliament.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:01 pm

1) historically since Clinton center left Democrats have wanted more police, just less militarizing of them
2) It is a goal of Trump and Putin to destabilize the EU and NATO - you need to get your parties straight
3) From 1500 to about 1965 subtle and effective racism ruled in what is now the US. Are you supposing it can be corrected in just a couple generations.
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Aesma
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:25 pm

The problem is that your points don't apply to other countries.

Defund the police isn't something that has ever been mentioned in my country, and we have genuine communists, marxists, socialists, left wing libertarians etc., here. But of course our police isn't paying great salaries for policemen who can retire at 50 after having killed a couple of people in dodgy situations. Here the left wing want more police ! So that they can be "friends" with people on the street, youth dealing drugs etc., to steer them in the right direction.

Military, in the US I'm not even sure it's a left or right issue, rather one of the numerous failures of your democracy : too many companies bribing politicians to buy military stuff.

The race thing, well there is clearly a long lasting issue in the US, over centuries, and I don't think there is an easy solution. Claiming there is no problem is of course not it. What annoys me is that this US issue is now being taken up in other countries, mine in particular, where it has really no place. I'm not saying there is no racism here, but its origins, its forms, are completely different, and US theories shouldn't be applied here. For example in the 1920's black US artists came to Paris and were appreciated by everyone here. Blacks fought alongside whites in both world wars in the French military. And of course we never had Jim Crow laws, anti miscegenation laws, black schools and white school, etc. Also black people in France are a smaller minority than in the US, and if anything racism is directed more at people with northern african origins ( "arabs" ).
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Francoflier
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:09 pm

The far left in other countries is mostly what the far left always has been, i.e. increased socialization of society by giving more power to workers and lower classes at the expense of businesses and white collars, create structures and laws that forcefully decrease the wage gap (through aggressive and punitive taxation), some are dabbling in the concept of universal income, that kind of stuff. I guess in Europe a lot of these parties have gotten on the anti-EU bandwagon as well, ironically alongside the far right parties which themselves have seemed to become more about immigration than anything else...
Interestingly the old-school communist parties, which constituted the far-left decades ago have all but disappeared now, even if some of their ideals still survive in modern fringe parties.

Anyhow, that US version of the far left is a bit weird if you ask me.
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seb146
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:16 pm

The "far left" in the United States would be considered center to center left in EU and Canada. I am still not understanding what the problem is with responsible military spending and affordable health care and living wage and holding police to the same standards as every other American citizen. Why are those things so terrible?
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Sokes
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:22 pm

My problem with the left:
They are usually believers in the ethics of ultimate end. (Do what is right and leave the result to God.)

Many appear to be guided by wishful thinking.
E.g. I agree there are people who can't work and which deserve society support. But I believe in exchange such people mustn't expect society to moreover finance children.

Germany has a left intellectual leader (Sarah Wagenknecht) which I admire. However I believe a lot of her party's support base is motivated by envy. I may be prejudiced in this opinion. Anyway I would never vote for her because I don't trust the party.

The funniest ideas in Germany:
-legalize theft in shops.
-legalize Marihuana. I smoked it for a few weeks maybe eleventh standard. I had a maths exam in which I thought I knew everything. Instead I got a real bad grade. I'm normally good in maths. I immediately stopped smoking this stuff.
I admit it may be good for artists.
-a youth wing social democrat recently suggested to socialize BMW. A Trabant with BMW sticker, so to say.

Like most Europeans I believe the US isn't left enough.
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c933103
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:45 pm

Ignoring the "Far Left" that support Chinese government and is actually far right by world's metric, the actual far left seems to be those that believe grow is bad and want environmental protection to take precedent over economic development and have no trust in the free market mechanism. I won't say they scare me. The most radical action in defending their leftist olitical ideology they have done was probably trying to defend some property or land from eminent domain by property developer. The leftmost people I have seen in local politics are just a few random individual former Trotskyists. A few people have tried to organize a local version of occupy wall street in economical sense back then but they only have like twenty or so participants
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afcjets
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:32 pm

seb146 wrote:
The "far left" in the United States would be considered center to center left in EU and Canada. I am still not understanding what the problem is with responsible military spending and affordable health care and living wage and holding police to the same standards as every other American citizen. Why are those things so terrible?

They're not, it's just leftists policies often accomplish the opposite of what they claim and/or have unintended yet totally predictable consequences. The road to hell is paved with good intentions is basically what they're all about IMO.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:49 pm

afcjets wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The "far left" in the United States would be considered center to center left in EU and Canada. I am still not understanding what the problem is with responsible military spending and affordable health care and living wage and holding police to the same standards as every other American citizen. Why are those things so terrible?

They're not, it's just leftists policies often accomplish the opposite of what they claim and/or have unintended yet totally predictable consequences. The road to hell is paved with good intentions is basically what they're all about IMO.


:roll:

Actually more socialist countries, tend to work better for everyone: Scandinavia is a great example.
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afcjets
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Actually more socialist countries, tend to work better for everyone: Scandinavia is a great example.


Not for immigrants.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:46 pm

afcjets wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Actually more socialist countries, tend to work better for everyone: Scandinavia is a great example.


Not for immigrants.

Uh...what? You care about immigrants?
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Extreme Left

Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:48 pm

Scandinavian countries have strong safety nets, but they are not socialistic - capitalist to the core.
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Blurp2
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:33 am

VSMUT wrote:
they flirt with dangerous brexit ideas, similar to the extreme right.


So your biggest worry is actually that the extreme left and the extreme right will get together and push your country out of the EU... I can see where that could be kinda scary. Kind of like these Texas yahoos that every 13 years or so, whenever the cicadas emerge, talk about seceding from the union. lol
 
Blurp2
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:39 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
1) historically since Clinton center left Democrats have wanted more police, just less militarizing of them
2) It is a goal of Trump and Putin to destabilize the EU and NATO - you need to get your parties straight
3) From 1500 to about 1965 subtle and effective racism ruled in what is now the US. Are you supposing it can be corrected in just a couple generations.


to 1) I would say: the Dems have been kinda confused about their relationship with the police. Clinton and his crime bill were trying to address black on black violence. He had the support of a lot of black voters on that. It didn't work out, but I don't think that was Clinton's fault. Now the Dems are in a tizzy trying to figure out how to respond to all these killings of unarmed blacks by cops. Why it's their responsibility I'm not sure, except that the Republicans don't seem to care, so the Dems are going to HAVE to do whatever is done. And there aren't any good solutions on the table, that I can see.

to 2) I would say: I agree with what you've said, and I think there's a deep strain of isolationism here in the US that hasn't been happy for a long time. What I said that could have led you to think I think otherwise, I can't imagine.

to 3) I would say: I didn't say anything about racism. I was asking for YOUR views. I do have certain views on racism, but this post was about trying to find out what YOU think. Please let us know.
 
Blurp2
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:41 am

Aesma wrote:
The problem is that your points don't apply to other countries.

Defund the police isn't something that has ever been mentioned in my country, and we have genuine communists, marxists, socialists, left wing libertarians etc., here. But of course our police isn't paying great salaries for policemen who can retire at 50 after having killed a couple of people in dodgy situations. Here the left wing want more police ! So that they can be "friends" with people on the street, youth dealing drugs etc., to steer them in the right direction.

Military, in the US I'm not even sure it's a left or right issue, rather one of the numerous failures of your democracy : too many companies bribing politicians to buy military stuff.

The race thing, well there is clearly a long lasting issue in the US, over centuries, and I don't think there is an easy solution. Claiming there is no problem is of course not it. What annoys me is that this US issue is now being taken up in other countries, mine in particular, where it has really no place. I'm not saying there is no racism here, but its origins, its forms, are completely different, and US theories shouldn't be applied here. For example in the 1920's black US artists came to Paris and were appreciated by everyone here. Blacks fought alongside whites in both world wars in the French military. And of course we never had Jim Crow laws, anti miscegenation laws, black schools and white school, etc. Also black people in France are a smaller minority than in the US, and if anything racism is directed more at people with northern african origins ( "arabs" ).


Yeah, but I wanted to know what YOU consider extreme left. I was just giving my position as examples.
 
Blurp2
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:43 am

Francoflier wrote:
The far left in other countries is mostly what the far left always has been, i.e. increased socialization of society by giving more power to workers and lower classes at the expense of businesses and white collars, create structures and laws that forcefully decrease the wage gap (through aggressive and punitive taxation), some are dabbling in the concept of universal income, that kind of stuff. I guess in Europe a lot of these parties have gotten on the anti-EU bandwagon as well, ironically alongside the far right parties which themselves have seemed to become more about immigration than anything else...
Interestingly the old-school communist parties, which constituted the far-left decades ago have all but disappeared now, even if some of their ideals still survive in modern fringe parties.

Anyhow, that US version of the far left is a bit weird if you ask me.


Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest there are others in the US who see it as I do. I was just giving a few examples to try to get a party started, is all. I can't think of anything extreme left that's actually been seriously proposed here. Of course, if it was really extreme left, it wouldn't be.
 
Blurp2
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:46 am

seb146 wrote:
The "far left" in the United States would be considered center to center left in EU and Canada. I am still not understanding what the problem is with responsible military spending and affordable health care and living wage and holding police to the same standards as every other American citizen. Why are those things so terrible?


I think you're talking about things that are not extreme left. Except, perhaps, when you mention "holding police to the same standards as every other American citizen." That's a political live wire that nobody is going to touch. "Here be dragons." It's an emotional thing, not a rational thing. We've gotten used to the cops being the authorities, and changing that radically in any way is going to create an uproar you wouldn't believe. Not that it makes sense; that's just the way it is.
 
Blurp2
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:03 am

Sokes wrote:
My problem with the left:
They are usually believers in the ethics of ultimate end. (Do what is right and leave the result to God.)


Huh. I consider myself fairly left-wing, with certain exceptions, but I never thought about ethical principles as having anything to do with it, just trying to make the world a little better place.

Sokes wrote:
Many appear to be guided by wishful thinking.
E.g. I agree there are people who can't work and which deserve society support. But I believe in exchange such people mustn't expect society to moreover finance children.


Ah, there speaks an Eisenhower Republican! lol

Sokes wrote:
Germany has a left intellectual leader (Sarah Wagenknecht) which I admire. However I believe a lot of her party's support base is motivated by envy. I may be prejudiced in this opinion. Anyway I would never vote for her because I don't trust the party.


I looked her up on Wikipedia. She does look like an interesting lady, although to understand her ideas I'd have to read one of her books, and I just don't have the time.

Sokes wrote:
The funniest ideas in Germany:
-legalize theft in shops.
-legalize Marihuana. I smoked it for a few weeks maybe eleventh standard. I had a maths exam in which I thought I knew everything. Instead I got a real bad grade. I'm normally good in maths. I immediately stopped smoking this stuff.
I admit it may be good for artists.
-a youth wing social democrat recently suggested to socialize BMW. A Trabant with BMW sticker, so to say.


Those are funny. Thank you. Although there is a general sense here in the US that marijuana will be legal here soon.

Sokes wrote:
Like most Europeans I believe the US isn't left enough.


You and me both, buddy! Thank you for that.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:05 am

Blurp2 wrote:
Yeah, but I wanted to know what YOU consider extreme left. I was just giving my position as examples.


OK so I'll give you examples of things that are commonly demanded by the far left and some unions in France (far left that made more than 20% at the last presidential election) :

- forbidding layoffs. A company should keep employees, period. It's already the case for public employees, who have a job for life and are difficult to fire even with reason.

- raising the minimum wage by 20% when it's already too high for many jobs.

- giving papers to all illegal immigrants.

- nationalization of all utilities, toll highways, etc.

- 32h work week for starters, with a goal of 28h or even less, by "sharing work" with the unemployed. The current legal work week is 35h BTW.
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Kent350787
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:05 am

For my country, I would consider extreme left to only be those who actively push for collectivisation of assets and active dismantling of the capitalist system. The only realistic party with tis platform is the Communist Party of Australia (previously the Socialist Party, but adopted the CPA name when the previous CPA, which was more traditionally eurocommunist, merged with some green elements). The CPA has no representation at any level of government in this country.

There are ongoing allegations that the Greens are "watermelons" - green on the outside but "red" (socialist) on the inside. There are parts of the Green platform which prioritise the environemnt over economic development, and collective action is important.

Like most developed countries apart from the USA, Australia is social democratic. Although there has bene some movement to the right during my lifetime, I think that overall we remain resolutely centrist on a worldwide political spectrum ie. to the left of both the Dems and the GoP.
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Blurp2
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:05 am

c933103 wrote:
Ignoring the "Far Left" that support Chinese government and is actually far right by world's metric, the actual far left seems to be those that believe grow is bad and want environmental protection to take precedent over economic development and have no trust in the free market mechanism. I won't say they scare me. The most radical action in defending their leftist olitical ideology they have done was probably trying to defend some property or land from eminent domain by property developer. The leftmost people I have seen in local politics are just a few random individual former Trotskyists. A few people have tried to organize a local version of occupy wall street in economical sense back then but they only have like twenty or so participants


Yeah, I'm starting to see that one problem with my OP is that extreme left ideas don't get seriously suggested at all, and so no one can really come up with good ideas, it's all back-brain stuff that everybody comes to individually. Interesting, though. Thank you!
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:18 am

Uh 40% is returning home from the Middle East this month and Trump is drawing down our presence in Germany much to Merkel's protest. So, why isn't this a good thing for the left?
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:31 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Uh 40% is returning home from the Middle East this month and Trump is drawing down our presence in Germany much to Merkel's protest. So, why isn't this a good thing for the left?



Putin and Russia and 80 years or so of Russian bullying and interference in other countries affairs including ours. 2016 comes to mind. Look back in the history of the Near East. Look up the Cuban Crisis also way back in the Kennedy years. Let us excuse them for past misbehavior and take their word to change for the good. :sarcastic: :sarcastic:
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Blurp2
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:19 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Uh 40% is returning home from the Middle East this month and Trump is drawing down our presence in Germany much to Merkel's protest. So, why isn't this a good thing for the left?


Well, Trump hasn't suggested reducing the defense budget... THAT would be progress, from a leftist perspective. Moving troops around, destroying our relationships with longstanding allies... none of this seems productive, to me. If reducing the number of troops in the ME was going to affect the defense budget, I think that would be something the left would smile on. But it seems unlikely.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:24 am

Moving troops around, destroying our relationships with longstanding allies... none of this seems productive, to me.

Exactly!!!!!
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:30 am

Blurp2 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Uh 40% is returning home from the Middle East this month and Trump is drawing down our presence in Germany much to Merkel's protest. So, why isn't this a good thing for the left?


Well, Trump hasn't suggested reducing the defense budget... THAT would be progress, from a leftist perspective. Moving troops around, destroying our relationships with longstanding allies... none of this seems productive, to me. If reducing the number of troops in the ME was going to affect the defense budget, I think that would be something the left would smile on. But it seems unlikely.


Trump warned the EU to start pulling their weight. They have refused. It's not our job to defend them.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:35 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Blurp2 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Uh 40% is returning home from the Middle East this month and Trump is drawing down our presence in Germany much to Merkel's protest. So, why isn't this a good thing for the left?


Well, Trump hasn't suggested reducing the defense budget... THAT would be progress, from a leftist perspective. Moving troops around, destroying our relationships with longstanding allies... none of this seems productive, to me. If reducing the number of troops in the ME was going to affect the defense budget, I think that would be something the left would smile on. But it seems unlikely.


Trump warned the EU to start pulling their weight. They have refused. It's not our job to defend them.


Ah but it is, by defending them, we defend ourselves and keep the turmoil over there, which is wise and has been for many years before the shit stirrer. Now that I think about it, the great Wall builder wants to tear apart the defense wall we have spent hundreds of thousands of lives and countless billions in treasure to built to contain Russia after we defeated and befriended Germany, funny that !!
Last edited by WarRI1 on Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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art
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:48 am

What is Critical Race Theory?
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:00 am

art wrote:
What is Critical Race Theory?



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Aaron747
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:39 am

Blurp2 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Uh 40% is returning home from the Middle East this month and Trump is drawing down our presence in Germany much to Merkel's protest. So, why isn't this a good thing for the left?


Well, Trump hasn't suggested reducing the defense budget... THAT would be progress, from a leftist perspective. Moving troops around, destroying our relationships with longstanding allies... none of this seems productive, to me. If reducing the number of troops in the ME was going to affect the defense budget, I think that would be something the left would smile on. But it seems unlikely.


Both sides should be happy to see a large disengagement from the Middle East, especially the protected faux royals.
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M564038
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:50 am

Our left basically broke off with the communists during the 20’s, like most left-wings in the western world. They want social welfare for everyone, free education, making women able to work and pay for themselves even when having had a child and all the other things that make people truely free and socially mobile. This has worked pretty well, a whole lot better than the US system and my country is consistently ranked one of the highest both in happiness and economy.

There are outliers on the left that opposes things like wind power abd nuclear, I have no problem calling them extremists.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:01 am

For me, in the US, it's:

1) Fundamental opposition to free markets and capitalism. So many "Sanderistas" love to point to some European countries like "see look they do the socialism over there and it's great," when no, much of Europe is very much capitalist, just with a bigger safety net and the correspondingly higher taxes across the board to fund it.
2) Anywhere the far left and the far right overlap sets off alarm bells for me. Think speech/content policing on social media, opposition to open immigration, knee jerk opposition to "big tech", anti-trade, etc.
3) Anti-free speech/cancel culture- I could technically pair this with #2 since this does feature on the far right as well, but it has become a dominant aspect of the far left.
4) Anything totally detached from fiscal reality. Putting forward unrealistic plans and policy objectives with absolutely no realistic plan for funding or paying for them (think Green New Deal, slavery reparations, Sanders' version of Medicare for All).
 
tommy1808
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:16 am

flyguy89 wrote:
For me, in the US, it's:

1) Fundamental opposition to free markets and capitalism. So many "Sanderistas" love to point to some European countries like "see look they do the socialism over there and it's great," when no, much of Europe is very much capitalist, just with a bigger safety net and the correspondingly higher taxes across the board to fund it. .


:checkmark:
Not just are a couple of markets more free in the European Union, there are seven European countries with more economic freedom than the US and a couple of others not far behind.....

https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

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c933103
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:40 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Blurp2 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Uh 40% is returning home from the Middle East this month and Trump is drawing down our presence in Germany much to Merkel's protest. So, why isn't this a good thing for the left?


Well, Trump hasn't suggested reducing the defense budget... THAT would be progress, from a leftist perspective. Moving troops around, destroying our relationships with longstanding allies... none of this seems productive, to me. If reducing the number of troops in the ME was going to affect the defense budget, I think that would be something the left would smile on. But it seems unlikely.


Trump warned the EU to start pulling their weight. They have refused. It's not our job to defend them.

Then why wasn't Trump that much welcoming to the proposal of European Military which would have achieved exactly that?
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Sokes
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:43 am

Blurp2 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
My problem with the left:
They are usually believers in the ethics of ultimate end. (Do what is right and leave the result to God.)


Huh. I consider myself fairly left-wing, with certain exceptions, but I never thought about ethical principles as having anything to do with it, just trying to make the world a little better place.


afcjets wrote:
...leftists policies often accomplish the opposite of what they claim and/or have unintended yet totally predictable consequences. The road to hell is paved with good intentions is basically what they're all about IMO.


afcjets brings it to the point.
Aesma mentioned minimum wage. When Germany introduced it there was no negative effect on the labour market. I guess minimum wage is good for countries with trade surplus.

Of course it is to be desired that low qualified people also get a decent salary. But if a country has high unemployment and trade deficit a minimum wage may lead to further job losses.
I never heard a left politician argue that one should adjust minimum wage depending on trade surplus.

Similar it is to be desired that no child grows in poverty. But if more help leads to more children by the receiving mothers, the help has unintended consequences. Ethics of responsibility looks at the result.
I have a friend whose sister got married to a smart criminal. They have three children. The marriage didn't last. He is obliged to pay support, but doesn't. Now the German government pays. Why should taxpayer finance the children of criminals?
Would you agree that both parents should get sterilized if they require taxpayer support?
Maybe you do, but my impression from the left is different.
My point:
Equal chances for children and free choice for parents are conflicting aims. The left usually focuses on equal chances, but ignores the conflicting part.

The worst example may be tenant protection laws. Young families with two children can't get affordable housing because a lonely widow living since fifty years in the same three bedroom flat can't be thrown out. She won't be willing to leave, as her rent is far below market rate, which is consequence of another tenancy protection law.
You won't call it market failure?

One more note on envy. So far I read only one book of Wagenknecht, "Prosperity without greed".
The first thirty or so pages were terrible. Nothing but envy. I already wanted to keep the book away, but thankfully tried my luck further behind in the book. She has very good thoughts. I suppose the first pages were for her support base. Many people don't read long books.
The later part of the book didn't show the politician, but the academic in her.

Again:
Being a politician and a political philosopher are conflicting aims.
Last edited by Sokes on Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13487
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:51 am

c933103 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Blurp2 wrote:

Well, Trump hasn't suggested reducing the defense budget... THAT would be progress, from a leftist perspective. Moving troops around, destroying our relationships with longstanding allies... none of this seems productive, to me. If reducing the number of troops in the ME was going to affect the defense budget, I think that would be something the left would smile on. But it seems unlikely.


Trump warned the EU to start pulling their weight. They have refused. It's not our job to defend them.

Then why wasn't Trump that much welcoming to the proposal of European Military which would have achieved exactly that?


its a crazy talking point in any case. If you are an uninformed simpleton just repeating what you hear on TV, that may be ok, but our TTailedTiger knows perfectly well that Europe is already outspending Russia by a factor of ~ four, which is more than enough to pull ones weight....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:00 am

The Socialist Party - SP is considered the far left of "mainstream" parties, e.g. have a seat in Parlament.

The party labels itself as socialist,[14] but it has also been described as social-democratic.[8] In its manifesto of principles, it calls for a society where human dignity, equality and solidarity are most important. Its core issues are employment, social welfare and investing in health care, public education and public safety. The party opposes privatisation of public services and is critical of globalisation.


Is this radical? Perhaps in a neo-liberal world view.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:14 am

c933103 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Blurp2 wrote:

Well, Trump hasn't suggested reducing the defense budget... THAT would be progress, from a leftist perspective. Moving troops around, destroying our relationships with longstanding allies... none of this seems productive, to me. If reducing the number of troops in the ME was going to affect the defense budget, I think that would be something the left would smile on. But it seems unlikely.


Trump warned the EU to start pulling their weight. They have refused. It's not our job to defend them.

Then why wasn't Trump that much welcoming to the proposal of European Military which would have achieved exactly that?


It would not / will not achieve more spending perse, just more effective spending. More bang for your Euro. And the countries comited to up their spending to the 2% "norm" in the next few years. The 2% is itself quite arbitrary, but ok.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:18 am

In my part of Germany the far left want / are:

1/ Open borders world wide. Europe should take any and all immigrants.
2/ No police. People should live in communities and be trustworthy enough to look after each other. (except when someone steals there bike, or breaks into their house, or they need protection from the far right. In which case they can't get the Police there fast enough).
3/ No corporations, no persons who earns more than another.
4/ No 'gentrification'. Happy to live in a dump with Graffiti everywhere.
5/ Strict rent controls. Buildings should be owned by the people who live there.
6/ Immediate stopping the sale of all petrol and diesel car, people should use bikes. No nuclear, no wind farms. Eveyone should be vegan.
7/ Almost always describe themselves as a musician or artist of some sorts. Often a perpetual student (free university in Germany), so knows everything but has experience in nothing.
8/ Full on Socialism or Communism. Many don't know the differnce but proclaim they are one or the other.
9/ Always up for starting a fight with anyone with any sign of being right wing. Even centralists are fair game. Known to set fire to roadworks, cars in underground carparks, cranes just cos..burn the system. Capitalism is the enemy.
10/ Attend every protest about any topic any time, come rain or shine, any time of day.

Must be exhausting for them, living in one of the most afluent countries in the world.
 
M564038
Posts: 440
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:21 am

So let me put you at ease on a couple of these points.

In my socialist heaven european country, we do these things like this:

-People working in export business, in direct competition with other countries does indeed set the pace of wage-negotiations for everyone else.

-Generous child support does not make people have more children. The support is designed to make mothers and fathers get back to work on as equal footing as possible. (I am in the middle of a obligatory fathers leave right now, actually) Free higher education, as well as actual sex ed. in school make people have fewer children an later in life, and keep women working instead of being home.

This system is not breaking down society, it is building it.


Sokes wrote:
Blurp2 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
My problem with the left:
They are usually believers in the ethics of ultimate end. (Do what is right and leave the result to God.)


Huh. I consider myself fairly left-wing, with certain exceptions, but I never thought about ethical principles as having anything to do with it, just trying to make the world a little better place.


afcjets wrote:
...leftists policies often accomplish the opposite of what they claim and/or have unintended yet totally predictable consequences. The road to hell is paved with good intentions is basically what they're all about IMO.


afcjets brings it to the point.
Aesma mentioned minimum wage. When Germany introduced it there was no negative effect on the labour market. I guess minimum wage is good for countries with trade surplus.

Of course it is to be desired that low qualified people also get a decent salary. But if a country has high unemployment and trade deficit a minimum wage may lead to further job losses.
I never heard a left politician argue that one should adjust minimum wage depending on trade surplus.

Similar it is to be desired that no child grows in poverty. But if more help leads to more children by the receiving mothers, the help has unintended consequences. Ethics of responsibility looks at the result.
I have a friend whose sister got married to a smart criminal. They have three children. The marriage didn't last. He is obliged to pay support, but doesn't. Now the German government pays. Why should taxpayer finance the children of criminals?
Would you agree that both parents should get sterilized if they require taxpayer support?
Maybe you do, but my impression from the left is different.
My point:
Equal chances for children and free choice for parents are conflicting aims. The left usually focuses on equal chances, but ignores the conflicting part.

The worst example may be tenant protection laws. Young families with two children can't get affordable housing because a lonely widow living since fifty years in the same three bedroom flat can't be thrown out. She won't be willing to leave, as her rent is far below market rate, which is consequence of another tenancy protection law.
You won't call it market failure?

One more note on envy. So far I read only one book of Wagenknecht, "Prosperity without greed".
The first thirty or so pages were terrible. Nothing but envy. I already wanted to keep the book away, but thankfully tried my luck further behind in the book. She has very good thoughts. I suppose the first pages were for her support base. Many people don't read long books.
The later part of the book didn't show the politician, but the academic in her.

Again:
Being a politician and a political philosopher are conflicting aims.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11889
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:29 am

Reinhardt wrote:
In my part of Germany the far left want / are:

1/ Open borders world wide. Europe should take any and all immigrants.
2/ No police. People should live in communities and be trustworthy enough to look after each other. (except when someone steals there bike, or breaks into their house, or they need protection from the far right. In which case they can't get the Police there fast enough).
3/ No corporations, no persons who earns more than another.
4/ No 'gentrification'. Happy to live in a dump with Graffiti everywhere.
5/ Strict rent controls. Buildings should be owned by the people who live there.
6/ Immediate stopping the sale of all petrol and diesel car, people should use bikes. No nuclear, no wind farms. Eveyone should be vegan.
7/ Almost always describe themselves as a musician or artist of some sorts. Often a perpetual student (free university in Germany), so knows everything but has experience in nothing.
8/ Full on Socialism or Communism. Many don't know the differnce but proclaim they are one or the other.
9/ Always up for starting a fight with anyone with any sign of being right wing. Even centralists are fair game. Known to set fire to roadworks, cars in underground carparks, cranes just cos..burn the system. Capitalism is the enemy.
10/ Attend every protest about any topic any time, come rain or shine, any time of day.

Must be exhausting for them, living in one of the most afluent countries in the world.


:roll: luckely you write this with full objective intent.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 344
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:55 am

Dutchy wrote:

:roll: luckely you write this with full objective intent.


We have one of the most left wing communites in Europe in the city I live in. Some of what I wrote it is of course generalisations and a bit tounge in cheek, quite a lot of it is real and what you see and hear every day. There have been 4 sets of full on riots in the neighbourhood over the last 5 years. Last one was earlier this month. Of course it's not the entire area and not everyone but those that are far left cause real problems here. More than the far right, although the city should never allow the far right (which will always include some full on Nazis) to protest through those streets in the area - that was the cause of the riots in 2016.

Far left agitants are now a major concern for the Govenment, and even at a local level the Mayor and city have come out and said they are seriously concerned about it and have been guity of concentrating on the far right too much.

In this day and age we need a little less far left and far right..and a lot more centre ground realism and a way to build bridges. Isolation, extremes, populism - it's all dangerous - as is being shown around the world right now.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4572
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:20 am

Reinhardt wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

:roll: luckely you write this with full objective intent.


We have one of the most left wing communites in Europe in the city I live in. Some of what I wrote it is of course generalisations and a bit tounge in cheek, quite a lot of it is real and what you see and hear every day. There have been 4 sets of full on riots in the neighbourhood over the last 5 years. Last one was earlier this month. Of course it's not the entire area and not everyone but those that are far left cause real problems here. More than the far right, although the city should never allow the far right (which will always include some full on Nazis) to protest through those streets in the area - that was the cause of the riots in 2016.

Far left agitants are now a major concern for the Govenment, and even at a local level the Mayor and city have come out and said they are seriously concerned about it and have been guity of concentrating on the far right too much.

In this day and age we need a little less far left and far right..and a lot more centre ground realism and a way to build bridges. Isolation, extremes, populism - it's all dangerous - as is being shown around the world right now.


You are right about the extreme far left in Germany, but you negate to bring up that they are also a reaction to the capitalist/corporatist side of Germany, which in my experience is also one of the most extreme in Europe, easily able to match the worst of the US. Critique of the far left is fine, but the lack of widespread critique of the rich is a major issue. I can't think of many other places in Europe where the CEO gladly plasters his face on a sign next to the entrance to a shop or restaurant where the employees are paid a minimum wage that hasn't increased over the past few decades, while properties in the area have been snatched up by wealthy investors causing rents to skyrocket.
 
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c933103
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:48 am

VSMUT wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

:roll: luckely you write this with full objective intent.


We have one of the most left wing communites in Europe in the city I live in. Some of what I wrote it is of course generalisations and a bit tounge in cheek, quite a lot of it is real and what you see and hear every day. There have been 4 sets of full on riots in the neighbourhood over the last 5 years. Last one was earlier this month. Of course it's not the entire area and not everyone but those that are far left cause real problems here. More than the far right, although the city should never allow the far right (which will always include some full on Nazis) to protest through those streets in the area - that was the cause of the riots in 2016.

Far left agitants are now a major concern for the Govenment, and even at a local level the Mayor and city have come out and said they are seriously concerned about it and have been guity of concentrating on the far right too much.

In this day and age we need a little less far left and far right..and a lot more centre ground realism and a way to build bridges. Isolation, extremes, populism - it's all dangerous - as is being shown around the world right now.


You are right about the extreme far left in Germany, but you negate to bring up that they are also a reaction to the capitalist/corporatist side of Germany, which in my experience is also one of the most extreme in Europe, easily able to match the worst of the US. Critique of the far left is fine, but the lack of widespread critique of the rich is a major issue. I can't think of many other places in Europe where the CEO gladly plasters his face on a sign next to the entrance to a shop or restaurant where the employees are paid a minimum wage that hasn't increased over the past few decades, while properties in the area have been snatched up by wealthy investors causing rents to skyrocket.

Why should one be criticized because they are "rich"? You can say the regulation should be criticized for not giving enough protection to workers, but why should one be criticized for earning more than others?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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VSMUT
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:58 am

c933103 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

We have one of the most left wing communites in Europe in the city I live in. Some of what I wrote it is of course generalisations and a bit tounge in cheek, quite a lot of it is real and what you see and hear every day. There have been 4 sets of full on riots in the neighbourhood over the last 5 years. Last one was earlier this month. Of course it's not the entire area and not everyone but those that are far left cause real problems here. More than the far right, although the city should never allow the far right (which will always include some full on Nazis) to protest through those streets in the area - that was the cause of the riots in 2016.

Far left agitants are now a major concern for the Govenment, and even at a local level the Mayor and city have come out and said they are seriously concerned about it and have been guity of concentrating on the far right too much.

In this day and age we need a little less far left and far right..and a lot more centre ground realism and a way to build bridges. Isolation, extremes, populism - it's all dangerous - as is being shown around the world right now.


You are right about the extreme far left in Germany, but you negate to bring up that they are also a reaction to the capitalist/corporatist side of Germany, which in my experience is also one of the most extreme in Europe, easily able to match the worst of the US. Critique of the far left is fine, but the lack of widespread critique of the rich is a major issue. I can't think of many other places in Europe where the CEO gladly plasters his face on a sign next to the entrance to a shop or restaurant where the employees are paid a minimum wage that hasn't increased over the past few decades, while properties in the area have been snatched up by wealthy investors causing rents to skyrocket.

Why should one be criticized because they are "rich"? You can say the regulation should be criticized for not giving enough protection to workers, but why should one be criticized for earning more than others?


They shouldn't be criticized for being rich, but rather how they got rich in the first place. It isn't sustainable. Poor, underpaid workers don't consume or reinvest their fortunes. Keeping immigrant workers locked up in small facilities at a slaughterhouse is a health hazard. In a functional society, everybody gets richer if everybody contributes.
 
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c933103
Posts: 4484
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:07 am

VSMUT wrote:
c933103 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

You are right about the extreme far left in Germany, but you negate to bring up that they are also a reaction to the capitalist/corporatist side of Germany, which in my experience is also one of the most extreme in Europe, easily able to match the worst of the US. Critique of the far left is fine, but the lack of widespread critique of the rich is a major issue. I can't think of many other places in Europe where the CEO gladly plasters his face on a sign next to the entrance to a shop or restaurant where the employees are paid a minimum wage that hasn't increased over the past few decades, while properties in the area have been snatched up by wealthy investors causing rents to skyrocket.

Why should one be criticized because they are "rich"? You can say the regulation should be criticized for not giving enough protection to workers, but why should one be criticized for earning more than others?


They shouldn't be criticized for being rich, but rather how they got rich in the first place. It isn't sustainable. Poor, underpaid workers don't consume or reinvest their fortunes. Keeping immigrant workers locked up in small facilities at a slaughterhouse is a health hazard. In a functional society, everybody gets richer if everybody contributes.

The discussion should focus on how and why workers get underpaid and how and why immigrant workers are locked up in small facilities and how to change the situation.
It is governlent's task to setup regulations ensuring workers are well protected, the place of companies is to find the best way to make profit while complying with those protection lay out by the government. Trying to put the brden of both tasks onto corporate is giving them too much power and duty to be efficiently run, and it is not sustainable as a company minding its own financial situation will always try to undercut whatever not being legally protevted.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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ltbewr
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:15 am

The 'far left' as well as the 'far right' have one thing in common - offensive, sometimes violent and destructive behaviors that turn off a lot of support for them whether it be Portland or Paris. Most people don't want private, public or government property destroyed, stores looted, 'occupation' of public spaces, marching around with guns and other weapons, patrons at outdoor restaurants harassed, ramming cars into crowds of people, burning of American flags or cars, blocking of highways, tearing down statutes of persons of unpopular beliefs and protests to keep them up.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 344
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Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:35 am

VSMUT wrote:
You are right about the extreme far left in Germany, but you negate to bring up that they are also a reaction to the capitalist/corporatist side of Germany, which in my experience is also one of the most extreme in Europe, easily able to match the worst of the US. Critique of the far left is fine, but the lack of widespread critique of the rich is a major issue. I can't think of many other places in Europe where the CEO gladly plasters his face on a sign next to the entrance to a shop or restaurant where the employees are paid a minimum wage that hasn't increased over the past few decades, while properties in the area have been snatched up by wealthy investors causing rents to skyrocket.


From my experience the UK is the best comparison in Europe compared to the US in terms of it's attitude towards capitalism, wealth inequality and povety. Yes there are very large differences in Germany between those at the top and bottom but those at the bottom are better looked after by the state in Germany than the UK. Germany also still has this great devide between the West and East. The East still has much lower average wages but it has a great deal of manual labour / factory / lower skilled workers which drives down the average. Taking those lower earners out, and you get a different of about 5-8% different these days. Of course living costs (with the exception of fuel..it's very cheap here) are basically the same.

What you say about wealthy investors buying up property, that's exactly right. Where I live, when the wall fell and the decade after huge numbers of well off Bavarians bought up swathes of the city. They now are the landlords - and yup they try and push the rents up year after year. Luckily we do have rent control, so they often fail.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4572
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Extreme Left

Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:40 am

c933103 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Why should one be criticized because they are "rich"? You can say the regulation should be criticized for not giving enough protection to workers, but why should one be criticized for earning more than others?


They shouldn't be criticized for being rich, but rather how they got rich in the first place. It isn't sustainable. Poor, underpaid workers don't consume or reinvest their fortunes. Keeping immigrant workers locked up in small facilities at a slaughterhouse is a health hazard. In a functional society, everybody gets richer if everybody contributes.

The discussion should focus on how and why workers get underpaid and how and why immigrant workers are locked up in small facilities and how to change the situation.
It is governlent's task to setup regulations ensuring workers are well protected, the place of companies is to find the best way to make profit while complying with those protection lay out by the government. Trying to put the brden of both tasks onto corporate is giving them too much power and duty to be efficiently run, and it is not sustainable as a company minding its own financial situation will always try to undercut whatever not being legally protevted.


You are forgetting an important point. Germany follows a social model where the state, the employer and the employee share an equal burden when it comes to welfare. It isn't like in Scandinavia where everything is handed to the state in return for tax contributions. German employers play a central role in raising standards.

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