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Sokes
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How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:13 am

What are the requirements?
What was tried and how did it work?
What are your ideas?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:31 am

This needs to be broken down into a variety of categories.
Elderly on Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. This group is generally fairly well taken care of

Families with children. Usually those with two working adults get by. Single parents do more poorly and lack of affordable child care makes it worse. State and federal programs are often available, but still a lot still without housing

Adult homeless with major mental illness and addiction are the main compounding problems and will be difficult to help

Adult homeless who could get by with a safe tent city, portable toilets, and garbage bins. This group likely is the largest. It is frustrating to me, because those facilities could be inexpensive and effective. Getting these people off the streets and with a minimum place for the "Ps", would be humane, effective, and appreciated. Place for a pillow, place to pee and poop, place for paraphernalia

Medically fragile homeless, these can be some of the most expensive to provide with care.
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LCDFlight
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:27 am

"A right to housing" was provided in places like Yugoslavia, Cuba. You will find it wasn't necessarily great. In Venezuela right now, there is no "wealth to distribute." People are going hungry, eating dogs.

I sometimes see new "affordable / subsidized housing" constructed at a cost of $300,000, or more, per unit. It does not make sense, even from a moral or a justice perspective, to obligate the community to chip in $300,000 per unit for every person who asks.

Bottom line, for elderly and handicapped people in need, housing should be available to them. For able-bodied and able-minded people, I do not think society is obligated to provide them with a free residence so they can sit around and smoke pot all day while I work.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:39 am

LCDFlight wrote:
"A right to housing" was provided in places like Yugoslavia, Cuba. You will find it wasn't necessarily great. In Venezuela right now, there is no "wealth to distribute." People are going hungry, eating dogs.

I sometimes see new "affordable / subsidized housing" constructed at a cost of $300,000, or more, per unit. It does not make sense, even from a moral or a justice perspective, to obligate the community to chip in $300,000 per unit for every person who asks.

Bottom line, for elderly and handicapped people in need, housing should be available to them. For able-bodied and able-minded people, I do not think society is obligated to provide them with a free residence so they can sit around and smoke pot all day while I work.


I agree generally - with caveats. Life deals bad luck to some - family with no ability to help + job loss + medical problem + credit ruined = high bar for able minded and able bodied persons to clear to get back on their feet. Such an individual had done nothing wrong - from bankrupt MDs with student debt who had a bout of cancer that far exceeded deductibles to trades workers who were laid off and lost union protections. Also ‘able minds’ quickly change to anxiety and worse under that kind of stress. What do we do for people in such circumstances?

Unemployment insurance doesn’t cover those losses in most states and professional positions won’t hire anyone with a tent city address or bad credit.
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Dutchy
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:25 am

So are we talking about America, or in general?

In general: everybody should have a right to have a house, a roof above their heads. It is a basic human need, not a luxury.

Image

link

A very simplified model is the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Shelter is at the bottom, it is the first need.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:47 am

Sokes wrote:
What are the requirements?
What was tried and how did it work?
What are your ideas?


Keep the cost of housing down. In lots of cities around the world, houses are more treaded like investment objects than shelters. It only drives the prices up, extreme cases can be observed in China. Ghost towns, apartment buildings everywhere, but nobody lives there. Less extreme, but still relevant, in many western cities: Vancouver, London, Amsterdam, San Fransisco to name a view, almost unaffordable to live there.

In the Netherlands, we have 3. housing markets, if you will: social housing, no restriction rent, and homeownership. Social housing you can get in if you earn less than 36K a year, strictly controlled and run by non-profit organizations, the remainder markets are not restricted perse. But there is a shortage of houses in the Netherlands, we - I am in the real estate business - need to build 80-100k houses per year, to keep up with demand and some more, we did 40-60k last year. So there is a serious imbalance in the housing market in the Netherlands. Which of course has led to ever increasing housing prices. Not good for society.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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c933103
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:48 am

The market solution to housing for people with not enough money is slum.
From quick Google search it seems like such is ebing prevebted from happening due to strict regulation by US government on what and how can people build things, so people either just live in their cars or remain homeless
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Aaron747
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:26 am

c933103 wrote:
The market solution to housing for people with not enough money is slum.
From quick Google search it seems like such is ebing prevebted from happening due to strict regulation by US government on what and how can people build things, so people either just live in their cars or remain homeless


Oversimplification. Developers have a right to select where they want to invest. Cities have a right to prioritize development needs to maximize tax revenue. Citizens have a right to be protected from undue harm to environment and property values. It’s a complex combination of factors affecting what gets built and what doesn’t.
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c933103
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:10 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The market solution to housing for people with not enough money is slum.
From quick Google search it seems like such is ebing prevebted from happening due to strict regulation by US government on what and how can people build things, so people either just live in their cars or remain homeless


Oversimplification. Developers have a right to select where they want to invest. Cities have a right to prioritize development needs to maximize tax revenue. Citizens have a right to be protected from undue harm to environment and property values. It’s a complex combination of factors affecting what gets built and what doesn’t.

Slum are usually not something planned by developers or cities. They're usually creative use of space by/for poor people to make substandard housing. Like Hooverville. But the construction of such kind of housing seems impossible in the United States nowadays
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Kiwirob
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:26 am

Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
What are the requirements?
What was tried and how did it work?
What are your ideas?


Keep the cost of housing down. In lots of cities around the world, houses are more treaded like investment objects than shelters. It only drives the prices up, extreme cases can be observed in China. Ghost towns, apartment buildings everywhere, but nobody lives there. Less extreme, but still relevant, in many western cities: Vancouver, London, Amsterdam, San Fransisco to name a view, almost unaffordable to live there.

In the Netherlands, we have 3. housing markets, if you will: social housing, no restriction rent, and homeownership. Social housing you can get in if you earn less than 36K a year, strictly controlled and run by non-profit organizations, the remainder markets are not restricted perse. But there is a shortage of houses in the Netherlands, we - I am in the real estate business - need to build 80-100k houses per year, to keep up with demand and some more, we did 40-60k last year. So there is a serious imbalance in the housing market in the Netherlands. Which of course has led to ever increasing housing prices. Not good for society.


Just out of interest where is the demand coming from? In a country the size of the Netherlands surely it's unsustainable building 80-100,000 homes per year.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:07 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
What are the requirements?
What was tried and how did it work?
What are your ideas?


Keep the cost of housing down. In lots of cities around the world, houses are more treaded like investment objects than shelters. It only drives the prices up, extreme cases can be observed in China. Ghost towns, apartment buildings everywhere, but nobody lives there. Less extreme, but still relevant, in many western cities: Vancouver, London, Amsterdam, San Fransisco to name a view, almost unaffordable to live there.

In the Netherlands, we have 3. housing markets, if you will: social housing, no restriction rent, and homeownership. Social housing you can get in if you earn less than 36K a year, strictly controlled and run by non-profit organizations, the remainder markets are not restricted perse. But there is a shortage of houses in the Netherlands, we - I am in the real estate business - need to build 80-100k houses per year, to keep up with demand and some more, we did 40-60k last year. So there is a serious imbalance in the housing market in the Netherlands. Which of course has led to ever-increasing housing prices. Not good for society.


Just out of interest where is the demand coming from? In a country the size of the Netherlands surely it's unsustainable building 80-100,000 homes per year.


small population growth, immigration, mainly from eastern and middle EU countries and not the last place: smaller households. We should be building aroud 1mllion homes till 2030. Where is a good question. We try to do it within city limits, but large new subers will also be built. If you plot Los Angeles metropolitan area on The Netherlands, the northern tip on Den Helder, the southern tip reaches to Maastricht. Quite remarkable. But you have to take into account, the Netherlands build quite compact cities, not so much car orrientated, much more human orrientated: 20homes per 10.000sqm is not dense, dense areas up to 200homes (appartments) per 10.000sqm.
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Sokes
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:42 pm

My take on slums:
Slum in a small town:
There is a normal road, water and electricity. After 30 years of residence people have a legal claim, even though the land was original government land. However one can't sell it. The land does exist in the city survey, but one plot number includes several houses and some houses sit on two plot numbers. And sometimes there is no entry at all.
To create further confusion the Indian administration often splits responsibility on two institutions. So somebody may have a paper from the municipality that proofs ownership, even though there is no entry in the city survey.
Sometimes people "sold" half their land. The buyer built a house on his half, but the plot is still in the name of the old owner, more likely shared ownership. Actual ownership beats paper ownership.
Independent from slums: People who go to work abroad may find their property encroached on return.

Politicians invest their money in plots. Property prices are ridiculously high. In that small town I know a few hundred plots were given some years back to poor people. The government made sure plots are so small that it isn't attractive housing.

Slums in big cities are different. Last year there was a discussion to develop a slum in Bombay.
From hearsay:
At least some titles are not clear, but some strongmen collect rent. Politicians started the discussion as they wanted a bigger piece of the pie. They weren't serious about redevelopment.
I don't know enough about Bombay to judge, but the guy who told me is usually we'll informed.

Suppose there is slum type settlement on land with clear title. I know a seven floor building in Bombay. The first two floors the builder got. Sale of these two floors have to pay for all seven floors. The next two floors the land owner got. The top three floors are free flats for former tenants.
One tiny kitchen, one small room, one tiny bath room and one tiny toilet. Parents sleep on the kitchen floor. Children and possibly a relative who came to Bombay for work, but has no place to stay, sleep on the "hall" floor.
Basically they live in matchboxes.
Former tenants got the flats for free, however they are supposed to pay for maintenance. Usually that can't be enforced. Such buildings are therefore often a bit run down.

I know a guy who studied law. While he didn't pass, he still got a job in a Bombay law firm. He went back to his small home town and opened a stationary shop. His main business is selling prepaid telephone balances, usually 30-500Rs, 0,4-7$.
He says one has no life in Bombay. He drives a cheap bicycle. But at least he has no stress.

Slums are a legal as much as a money problem. People in Bombay slums may earn very well compared to people in small towns.
Making land available for housing lowers prices. Neither Western, nor Indian politicians like that.

Why is Bombay so big? Because in small towns politics doesn't allow businesses to prosper.
I don't think it's desirable to grow such cities further.
In such huge towns suburban trains are required if the city is supposed to grow further.
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luckyone
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:15 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Adult homeless with major mental illness and addiction are the main compounding problems and will be difficult to help

Here's the main barrier: how do you make people go into these shelters to begin with, and how do you make them stay. Chronically mentally ill patients frequently stop taking their medications and one way or another they lose their housing. The severely mentally ill have to be corralled. They don't come to you looking for housing (often anything for that matter), and are often not organized enough to be able to ask for it. The mental health code is every state is centered around civil liberties, though the interpretation of that does vary slightly from state to state, overall the trend is the same and a demonstrated risk of harm to self or others, or an ability to meet one's needs (this usually means literally can they find food, and if they hurt will they bring themselves to the hospital). I argued a case before a judge in Alaska regarding involuntary treatment for a chronic schizophrenic who was psychotic as hell and refusing all treatment for years which had rendered the person homeless, and verbatim this was the Public Defender's argument: "People have a right to be mentally ill. People have a right to be homeless if they want." The judge agreed with the defender, and I'll remember both of their names until I die. Alaska also has the further bone-headed distinction of not classifying substance use as a mental illness. The bottom line is we will have to rethink how willing we are to deprive people of their perceived civil liberties before we are able to make a dent in mentally ill homeless. I'm all for it.

The barrier to addiction is treatment buy-in. Most addicts don't accept help. They all say they want it, but this ultimately turns into a scenario like where people complain about poor airline service and keep flying the cheap airlines. Most homeless addicts are homeless because they've burned every bridge there is. They're often disruptive to housing environments, and without treatment buy-in, the treatment isn't very effective.
 
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c933103
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:53 pm

Sokes wrote:
My take on slums:(…)

I wasn't specifically thinking about India when I made my previous post.[/quote]

Why is Bombay so big? Because in small towns politics doesn't allow businesses to prosper.
I don't think it's desirable to grow such cities further.
In such huge towns suburban trains are required if the city is supposed to grow further.

Bombay is big because of its centrality. Even if small towns get better policies, as long as India still remain as a single country and a single economy, Bombay will still be growing faster than anything else, unless it's being replaced by another
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TTailedTiger
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:53 am

There are lots of vacant malls and big box stores that could be used. The government should waive all property taxes and utilities to anyone who will provide accomky to the homeless in them. Good tax write off.

I also hate the amount of waste that I see at grocery stores, restaurant, and convenience stores. But it isn't really their fault. Most local laws require them to throw out perfectly good food just because some arbitrary amount of them has passed. There is so much that could be donated to feed people.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:57 am

Stop so much regulation. Here is California it takes 4 to six times longer to build a same quality house than Texas.

I agree with turning malls into housing. There was twice as much retail space locally than needed pre Covid19. Let people build dorms, townhouses, and homes.
. Locally, there just isn't enough housing for anyone, but there us land, just zoned wrong.

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Sokes
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:53 am

luckyone wrote:
"People have a right to be mentally ill. People have a right to be homeless if they want." The judge agreed with the defender, and I'll remember both of their names until I die. Alaska also has the further bone-headed distinction of not classifying substance use as a mental illness. The bottom line is we will have to rethink how willing we are to deprive people of their perceived civil liberties before we are able to make a dent in mentally ill homeless. I'm all for it.
...
Most homeless addicts are homeless because they've burned every bridge there is. They're often disruptive to housing environments, and without treatment buy-in, the treatment isn't very effective.

Do me a favour and post more often.

IIRC a TV reportage about homeless in Germany said something like this:
There are institutions where people can stay overnight. Several people share one room. As many homeless have mental problems there are some difficulties with it.
The doors close early at night and at six or so in the morning they have to get up. Maybe by seven, I don't remember, everybody has to be out on the road again. Obviously there are strict rules concerning alcohol.

My former neighbour reached family foundation age just after WW2. There weren't enough young men for all the young women. She got pregnant from a married man. When her daughter was 18 and about to pass her A-levels the daughter got the first schizophrenic episode.
The father had a history of it which the mother never knew.
The daughter agreed to sterilization. She later married a drug addict. Rocky marriage, but she loved him. He died before time.
She got enough money to live from the government and a small two bedroom flat, the rent of which was also paid by the government.

When she felt another episode was coming she herself went to the mental hospital. Then she was locked away until she recovered. At least that is what her mother told me. Sounds strange, as psychotics don't have insight. I can't judge.

I never felt she is a burden to the taxpayer. I felt sorry for her.
But I would not have felt the same if she had decided for children.

Milton Friedman:
"Freedom to choose also always means the freedom to choose wrong. "
It's a great idea for people who handle their life well.

I failed seventh standard because of my low executive functions. My parents put me in a boarding school. My freedom was gone, but I started to perform properly. I even belonged to the better performers.
I again faced troubles in university. Though I'm a very individualistic person I always had difficulty handling my freedom.

As always in psychology:
There is no "one size fits all. "
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Nomadd
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:35 am

How long do you just keep packing people in, putting off the day you have to acknowledge the fact that there are too many? It's like coming up with ways to feed more people. Do we have to wait until every square inch of land is used up before we address the population problem?
*Rhetorical question, I have no doubt the human race has neither the intelligence or the courage to avoid waiting until it's too late*
 
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Aaron747
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:55 am

lightsaber wrote:
Stop so much regulation. Here is California it takes 4 to six times longer to build a same quality house than Texas.

I agree with turning malls into housing. There was twice as much retail space locally than needed pre Covid19. Let people build dorms, townhouses, and homes.
. Locally, there just isn't enough housing for anyone, but there us land, just zoned wrong.

Lightsaber


Completely agree - unfortunately people often vote for zoning that will prevent further development in their area. Part of the reason there is so much regulation in CA is that voters have chosen to have it. I'm not saying that people should be allowed to put up five-story apartment buildings in a single family residential area - but we still have a lot of places where large vacant lots, copious unused parking, and other land uses are found along four and six lane roads that can take the hit of a 30/40-unit development. Time is money and developers should not have to wait 3 years for approvals of modest-sized projects either. Obviously a pipeline, bridge, or highway widening will require detailed analysis to comply with EPA and CEQA, but an apartment building on an already-developed boulevard? C'mon.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:12 am

Nomadd wrote:
How long do you just keep packing people in, putting off the day you have to acknowledge the fact that there are too many? It's like coming up with ways to feed more people. Do we have to wait until every square inch of land is used up before we address the population problem?
*Rhetorical question, I have no doubt the human race has neither the intelligence or the courage to avoid waiting until it's too late*


Address the population problem? What sort of measures are you thinking of?
 
Sokes
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:17 am

Speaking of housing for low income workers in industrial countries:

A man had an attached house with small garden behind. In the middle of the garden there was a pathway. I asked him why he didn't build the path on the side.
He said: " You assume that big is better. "

My brother has a nice house, quite big.
He said to me: What I need is kitchen, two bedrooms, bath/ toilet and maybe hall. But what is really important is the garage.

As a student I lived in a flat of a housing society. Because of a bomb hit the house was rebuilt just after WW2.
Kitchen/ Hall was one room of maybe 16 sqmtr
One bedroom 14 sqmtr
Another bedroom 9 sqmtr, a bit too small
Bathroom/ toilet 1,5 m x 1,5 m
Entrance 1,5 m x 1 m

There was a gas based heater in the kitchen. As there were flats above, below and on the sides even with closed doors temperature in the bedrooms was acceptable. During a few cold days I kept room doors open.

I really liked that flat. If the small bedroom had to be 40 cm wider, it would be very good.
That house was built with housing shortage in mind.
48 sqmtr carpet area is perfectly fine for a family, provided bath and toilet is separate. Halls are an unnecessary luxury.

I believe if a landlord wanted to build the same type of flats today, regulation wouldn't allow.

On paper solutions are easy. The social interactions are not. I don't understand why high rise buildings made of ready elements brought trouble in many countries.
However: I believe it's not generally true that such buildings have to become social hotspots.

It is said that one should mix rich and poor people in housing. But I wonder from the experiences with my son if that's always possible. He has a 200 Euro bicycle, other children's bicycles are mostly below 100 Euro. Envious children may spoil the mind of other children.
I'm not confident in that last point and happy to be corrected.

I like to see housing in connection with public transport. Cheap land leads to urban sprawl. That makes public transport difficult. If the family needs an extra car cheaper rent doesn't really help.

IIRC Germany is the country in Europe with the highest proportion of tenants. Is it by chance that it is also one of the richest countries?
My argument:
In a democracy no party can demand that the majority of people pay high taxes.
But landlords are often in a high tax bracket. Of 100 Euro rent 20 Euro may be needed for maintenance. 35 Euro may go to the government
In Germany most income tax is paid by a few percent of households.
How would schooling and infrastructure look like if German homeownership had to be like in Spain?

Conflicting view:
Ownership of property has an important effect on self respect, feeling of security and wellbeing.
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c933103
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:59 pm

Nomadd wrote:
How long do you just keep packing people in, putting off the day you have to acknowledge the fact that there are too many? It's like coming up with ways to feed more people. Do we have to wait until every square inch of land is used up before we address the population problem?
*Rhetorical question, I have no doubt the human race has neither the intelligence or the courage to avoid waiting until it's too late*

People have their own freedom of movement. Since jobs and entertainment are all concentrated in cities nowadays, this trend cannot be reversed. Unless you copy China's example to expunge "low end people" from cities. The only solution is to find ways to deal with it.
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c933103
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:03 pm

Sokes wrote:
It is said that one should mix rich and poor people in housing. But I wonder from the experiences with my son if that's always possible. He has a 200 Euro bicycle, other children's bicycles are mostly below 100 Euro. Envious children may spoil the mind of other children.
I'm not confident in that last point and happy to be corrected.

There's a reason why all airlines separate cabin of different classes.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:24 pm

At least a couple years ago Seattle code demanded large hot water heaters, I think bath tubs, largish kitchens, largish main living spaces. The net of all that was about 300 square foot minimums. A unit with toilet, one sink, motel type kitchen, room for a bed and one comfortable was not allowed. So near as I can figure out a 200 sq ft minimal sort of space and plumbing is not allowed.

http://www.seattle.gov/sdci/codes/codes-we-enforce-(a-z)/small-efficiency-dwelling-units
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Sokes
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:48 am

c933103 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
It is said that one should mix rich and poor people in housing. But I wonder from the experiences with my son if that's always possible. He has a 200 Euro bicycle, other children's bicycles are mostly below 100 Euro. Envious children may spoil the mind of other children.
I'm not confident in that last point and happy to be corrected.

There's a reason why all airlines separate cabin of different classes.

I'm not sure, but I tend to disagree.
The experience of my son is in India. At least the parents mostly grew up with basic needs hardly satisfied. Many Indians struggle terrible with envy.

Have you heard of Munich Oktoberfest?
All classes mix and enjoy together. I read Vienna sausage stands is another setting where classes mix.

Europeans in India find it offensive how rich treat the poor. But then how likely is it that all rich are bad? Coming from Europe I dislike treating workers disrespectful. I mostly end up having trouble because of it.
The solution lies in education and having basic needs satisfied.

My son goes in a school which is rather for the rich. However one third of seats gov reserves for people from backward background. My son has no problems with children in school. It's different in the village.
But then my son is a bit defiant. Therefore conduct disorder children like him and he likes their ways. But then one can't have a real friendship with a conduct disorder child. So these friendships don't last, following which the conduct disorder children like to spoil others' mind.
He had one such friend in school also. Big overlap between my son's friends and that child's friends. Nevertheless my son always had friends in school, but struggles in the village.

As I said:
Education and capitalism is key.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:22 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
At least a couple years ago Seattle code demanded large hot water heaters, I think bath tubs, largish kitchens, largish main living spaces. The net of all that was about 300 square foot minimums. A unit with toilet, one sink, motel type kitchen, room for a bed and one comfortable was not allowed. So near as I can figure out a 200 sq ft minimal sort of space and plumbing is not allowed.

http://www.seattle.gov/sdci/codes/codes-we-enforce-(a-z)/small-efficiency-dwelling-units

The link doesn't work.
Also as student I for a short time rented a single room with shared bathroom. I believe the room was around 10 sqmt. Terrible.
A friend during student times had a maybe 18 sqmt room plus small kitchen plus small bathroom/ toilet. I didn't like it.

One has to be able to walk a little in a flat.
12 sqmt room + 16 sqmt Hall/ kitchen + 2 sqmt bath/ toilet + 1,5 sqmt entrance is required.
300 sqft minimum sounds reasonable to me.

My 43 sqmt flat was nice even when I took a friend in for a year or so.
And it did have a bath tub.
2sqmt= 1 sqmt bathtub occupying the full length of the room+ 0,5 sqmt to stand + a toilet.
The electric boiler was above the bath tub. As the flat had only one heating in the hall there was a 2 kW electric radiant heater.
It's surprising in what cold air one can take a shower if one gets radiation heat.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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c933103
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Re: How to provide housing for the poor?

Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:41 pm

Sokes wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
It is said that one should mix rich and poor people in housing. But I wonder from the experiences with my son if that's always possible. He has a 200 Euro bicycle, other children's bicycles are mostly below 100 Euro. Envious children may spoil the mind of other children.
I'm not confident in that last point and happy to be corrected.

There's a reason why all airlines separate cabin of different classes.

I'm not sure, but I tend to disagree.
The experience of my son is in India. At least the parents mostly grew up with basic needs hardly satisfied. Many Indians struggle terrible with envy.

Have you heard of Munich Oktoberfest?
All classes mix and enjoy together. I read Vienna sausage stands is another setting where classes mix.

Europeans in India find it offensive how rich treat the poor. But then how likely is it that all rich are bad? Coming from Europe I dislike treating workers disrespectful. I mostly end up having trouble because of it.
The solution lies in education and having basic needs satisfied.

My son goes in a school which is rather for the rich. However one third of seats gov reserves for people from backward background. My son has no problems with children in school. It's different in the village.
But then my son is a bit defiant. Therefore conduct disorder children like him and he likes their ways. But then one can't have a real friendship with a conduct disorder child. So these friendships don't last, following which the conduct disorder children like to spoil others' mind.
He had one such friend in school also. Big overlap between my son's friends and that child's friends. Nevertheless my son always had friends in school, but struggles in the village.

As I said:
Education and capitalism is key.

I would say, different people paid different price (no matter housing or airplane seat) have different expectation on environment, ans based on this different expectation they will act differently in common area based on their expectation. And then if you mix these people with different expectation and different behavior due to expectation difference together, dissatisfaction and conflict will happens. Envy may be a factor but I feel it's not that important.
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