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LAXintl
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WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:49 pm

The World Trade Organization has authorized the European Union to imposed tariffs on U.S. goods worth $4 billion to retaliate against subsidies for U.S. planemaker Boeing Co, people familiar with the matter said.

The move echoes last year's decision to allow the United States to penalize $7.5 billion of EU goods over support for Airbus.

Parties were informed of the decision by WTO arbitrators on Friday, and the written award is expected to be published within weeks.

WTO backs EU tariffs on $4 billion U.S. goods
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wto- ... SKBN26K3Q0

=

The 16-year-old dispute continues. With the two WTO decisions, door is opened for parties to negotiate directly and maybe come up with resolutions.

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enzo011
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:50 pm

Great, so we can have more posts about either side claiming victory. The only way this gets resolved is by negotiations in good faith on both sides and while Trump is in office this will not happen. And still only the lawyers will be the winners in this dispute. I expect Boeing will be more favourable for a resolution these days than before when they had money to throw away at rubbish like this, but these days every cent needs to be saved.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:56 pm

enzo011 wrote:
Great, so we can have more posts about either side claiming victory. The only way this gets resolved is by negotiations in good faith on both sides and while Trump is in office this will not happen. And still only the lawyers will be the winners in this dispute. I expect Boeing will be more favourable for a resolution these days than before when they had money to throw away at rubbish like this, but these days every cent needs to be saved.


This is resolved. The WTO determined partial merit in the arguments presented by both sides. Then the WTO assessed the scale of damages and authorized a specific monetary value of retaliatory tariffs. If you want to argue that the current status inflicts pain on both sides, I say good: maybe U.S. (and WA State) and the EU governments will be more prudent before granting illegal subsidies.
 
zuckie13
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:22 pm

Ok, so how much time and money has been wasted on what is essentially a tie?
Have the "subsidies" actually stopped on either end?
Has this accomplished anything aside from making airplanes more expensive for US and European buyers? (Not counting apparent tariff avoiding tricks like where you take delivery)
What the heck was/is the point of all this!!!!! (And I mean on both sides)
 
2175301
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:58 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
Ok, so how much time and money has been wasted on what is essentially a tie?
Have the "subsidies" actually stopped on either end?
Has this accomplished anything aside from making airplanes more expensive for US and European buyers? (Not counting apparent tariff avoiding tricks like where you take delivery)
What the heck was/is the point of all this!!!!! (And I mean on both sides)


I would not call $7.5 Billion vs $4 Billion a tie. Closer to 2 to 1.

Yet, I do not see Europe agreeing to $3.5 Billion is repayment subsidies to the USA.

I'd also not take any bets on Europe not continuing to provide lower than market value money to new start-up aircraft. Perhaps they will no longer do that. I'd need to see that occur a few times before I'll believe it.

Have a great day,
 
tommy1808
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:05 am

2175301 wrote:
I'd also not take any bets on Europe not continuing to provide lower than market value money to new start-up aircraft. Perhaps they will no longer do that. I'd need to see that occur a few times before I'll believe it.,


And why would the EU, or the US, for that matter stop? After all subsidies are ok under WTO rules unless a) another country complains and b) the WTO rules that the specific way of subsidizing is against the rules.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aesma
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:26 am

2175301 wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
Ok, so how much time and money has been wasted on what is essentially a tie?
Have the "subsidies" actually stopped on either end?
Has this accomplished anything aside from making airplanes more expensive for US and European buyers? (Not counting apparent tariff avoiding tricks like where you take delivery)
What the heck was/is the point of all this!!!!! (And I mean on both sides)


I would not call $7.5 Billion vs $4 Billion a tie. Closer to 2 to 1.

Yet, I do not see Europe agreeing to $3.5 Billion is repayment subsidies to the USA.

I'd also not take any bets on Europe not continuing to provide lower than market value money to new start-up aircraft. Perhaps they will no longer do that. I'd need to see that occur a few times before I'll believe it.

Have a great day,


Has Boeing stopped getting tax deals, NASA money, military money ? I didn't think so.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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enzo011
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:48 am

2175301 wrote:
I would not call $7.5 Billion vs $4 Billion a tie. Closer to 2 to 1.

Yet, I do not see Europe agreeing to $3.5 Billion is repayment subsidies to the USA.

I'd also not take any bets on Europe not continuing to provide lower than market value money to new start-up aircraft. Perhaps they will no longer do that. I'd need to see that occur a few times before I'll believe it.

Have a great day,



Yeah, this is what I meant...here we are discussing this as if it matters. Just as a point, the EU has a previous ruling where they could tariff goods up to $4.5b against the US due to a previous Boeing ruling but they decided not to asses those tariffs as it is just not smart to do that. So in reality it is $8.5b against $7.5b, these are not the tariffs collected but awarded. The US government doesn't pay tariffs and neither does Boeing, but EU consumers would pay extra for those items the tariffs were assessed on.

MIflyer12 wrote:
This is resolved. The WTO determined partial merit in the arguments presented by both sides. Then the WTO assessed the scale of damages and authorized a specific monetary value of retaliatory tariffs. If you want to argue that the current status inflicts pain on both sides, I say good: maybe U.S. (and WA State) and the EU governments will be more prudent before granting illegal subsidies.


It isn't, because I doubt either company has been whiter than white since these proceedings started. It is resolved for these cases that started years ago, if Boeing and Airbus wish they could lobby their respective government to start new ones on new programs if they see fit.

Hence my comment this that this only stops once the adults in the room take over. I am actually not referring to Trump here, but adults at Boeing and Airbus. Why should Scottish Whiskey makers suffer due to a ruling against Airbus and why should Harley Davidson workers suffer because of what Boeing does. This is silly and before Covid-19, what you expect companies with more money than sense to occupy their lawyers time with.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:02 pm

LOL, so let the US government subsidize the Boeing 797 $3.5 billion, and then forget about the whole thing. It will address the subsidy, tariff, virus stuff, what to do with that big empty building in Everett. And oh yes, figure out how to rescue RR while insuring the wing business in Wales. Peace in Our Time.
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Aesma
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:20 pm

Boeing/engine makers would still have to invest 10-15-20 billions and they don't want to.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:32 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
LOL, so let the US government subsidize the Boeing 797 $3.5 billion, and then forget about the whole thing.


The other way round.... Airbus would need to get a billion to be even.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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sergegva
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:26 pm

According to Reuters, the decision was validated today.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wto- ... SKBN26Y0XV
 
wingman
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:07 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
LOL, so let the US government subsidize the Boeing 797 $3.5 billion, and then forget about the whole thing.


The other way round.... Airbus would need to get a billion to be even.

Best regards
Thomas


How do you figure? 7.5 - 4 = 3.5. I know Germans are good at math but you're not that good that this translates into $1B to Airbus. I gotta go with Cadet on this one, I think 7.5 - 4 = 3.5 to Boeing.

Edited to correct my math but turns out the answer was still the same.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:17 pm

wingman wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
LOL, so let the US government subsidize the Boeing 797 $3.5 billion, and then forget about the whole thing.


The other way round.... Airbus would need to get a billion to be even.

Best regards
Thomas


How do you figure? 7.5 - 4 = 3.5. I know Germans are good at math but you're not that good that this translates into $1B to Airbus. I gotta go with Cadet on this one, I think 7.5 - 4 = 3.5 to Boeing.

Edited to correct my math but turns out the answer was still the same.


Why not 3,5bn back to the EU from Airbus, give Airbus 3,5bn to develop somthing a military craft, problem solved. ;-)
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oschkosch
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:48 pm

sergegva wrote:
According to Reuters, the decision was validated today.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wto- ... SKBN26Y0XV
And from that article the following quote:

On top of Tuesday’s $4 billion, European sources have said the EU could also use $4 billion of dormant tariffs awarded in an earlier case, giving it firepower similar to Washington’s


That means it would nearly be even, 7,5 vs. 8. Problem solved.

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tommy1808
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:52 pm

wingman wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
LOL, so let the US government subsidize the Boeing 797 $3.5 billion, and then forget about the whole thing.


The other way round.... Airbus would need to get a billion to be even.

Best regards
Thomas


How do you figure? 7.5 - 4 = 3.5. I know Germans are good at math but you're not that good that this translates into $1B to Airbus. I gotta go with Cadet on this one, I think 7.5 - 4 = 3.5 to Boeing.

Edited to correct my math but turns out the answer was still the same.


There is a previous ruling the EU hasn't enforced yet. Just look up thread.

Best regards
Thomss
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
B777LRF
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Re: WTO backs tariffs on U.S. goods over Boeing subsidies

Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:39 am

As numerous people, self included, have said from the very start of this sorry affair: The only beneficiaries of this are the lawyers.
Signature. You just read one.
 
mjoelnir
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Boeing Jets Face EU Tariffs

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:58 pm

Boeing Jets, Other U.S. Goods Worth $4 Billion Face EU Tariffs

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-jet ... _lead_pos6

The EU complaint about USA subsidizing Boeing runs time wise behind the USA complaint about the EU subsidizing Airbus.

13th of October the WTO ruled in favor of the EU, according to the WTO the USA is subsidizing Boeing.

The EU can since that set tariffs for USA products into the EU.

My personal opinion is, those two, the USA and the EU should stop prosecuting each other and rather come to an agreement.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing Jets Face EU Tariffs

Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:01 pm

I suspect the EU will do nothing until the Biden administration is in place and they see what happens with the tariffs the US has placed on the EU.
 
Antarius
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Re: Boeing Jets Face EU Tariffs

Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:07 pm

These back and forth tariffs have been such value add for aviation.
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Sokes
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Re: Boeing Jets Face EU Tariffs

Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:10 pm

Polot wrote:
I suspect the EU will do nothing until the Biden administration is in place and they see what happens with the tariffs the US has placed on the EU.

The WSJ article says duties are imposed Tuesday. The EU waited for the elections to pass, but prefers to introduce the tariffs before Biden takes office.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?

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