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Strebav8or
Topic Author
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:03 pm

DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:10 pm

Pretty interesting read.
I wonder how the airlines will react, or if they will react at all.
This was just released on October 3rd.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/us-dot- ... -airlines/
 
bomber996
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:21 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:17 pm

All this does is make life more difficult for airlines when dealing with the, "iT's AgAiNsT mY cOnStItUtIoNaL rIgHtS" crowd. Airlines are still able to make their own rules and passengers legally have to abide. This changes nothing.

Peace :box:
 
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lightsaber
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Posts: 22948
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:24 pm

OMG. I am a huge constitutionalist, but I support masks. They have been shown, if worn properly (not a chin diaper) to reduce the chance of infection by 77% and more importantly, reduce the viral loading upon infection to such a low level that it is a mild to asymptomatic case.

I'm flying for Thanksgiving and I will wear a mask and a face shield per advice from my sister, a doctor in a Covid19 ward.

My opinion is bad advice for the start of flu season as flu+Covid19 is really bad. Got flu vaccine?

Lightsaber
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1997
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:25 pm

bomber996 wrote:
All this does is make life more difficult for airlines when dealing with the, "iT's AgAiNsT mY cOnStItUtIoNaL rIgHtS" crowd. Airlines are still able to make their own rules and passengers legally have to abide. This changes nothing.


Agreed. It's no different than the "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" rules put forth by retailers.
 
Midwestfly
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:48 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:43 pm

Just to add more division and confusion for folks.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:55 pm

bomber996 wrote:
(...) "iT's AgAiNsT mY cOnStItUtIoNaL rIgHtS" (...)

Why the mix between lowercase and capitals?
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1290
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:11 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
bomber996 wrote:
(...) "iT's AgAiNsT mY cOnStItUtIoNaL rIgHtS" (...)

Why the mix between lowercase and capitals?


I think it's to show the level of insanity and rage shown by the entitled snowflake class when presented with a rule they must follow. I mean, there's a thread here on a would-be passenger attacking an airline employee when told flying barefoot was not allowed, so you can imagine now every anti-masker is going to find this ruling, buy a ticket on an airplane, bring the article along to show, and then create a scene beyond Jerry Springer's wildest dream at the airport, just to make a point.

It's time to train all front-line airline employees in martial arts, so as to defend themselves from the truly insane out there. People who attack employees need to be maced, then tasered, arrested, and put on a permanent no-fly list, period. You attack an employee once, you'll sure as Hades try it again.

With regards to the actual ruling, airlines can tell this person and his utterly insane ruling where to go, and what to do when he gets there, because as private businesses, they can make rules for themselves, and if they want to require masks, that's their business. Unlike a certain leader, airlines have chosen to pay attention to the science, and are taking health threats seriously.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2774
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:23 pm

bomber996 wrote:
All this does is make life more difficult for airlines when dealing with the, "iT's AgAiNsT mY cOnStItUtIoNaL rIgHtS" crowd. Airlines are still able to make their own rules and passengers legally have to abide. This changes nothing.

Peace :box:

All this does is pass blame from the DOT to the individual airline.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10054
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:37 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
With regards to the actual ruling, airlines can tell this person and his utterly insane ruling where to go, and what to do when he gets there, because as private businesses, they can make rules for themselves, and if they want to require masks, that's their business.


That idea may have an interesting run through the courts. Businesses can't make ANY rule they want: discrimination based on gender, race, and religion is outlawed in the U.S., for example. Somebody (funded by, oh, The Heritage Foundation, or some analogue) could make the case that a mask rule is arbitrary. The DOT declined to promulgate a mask rule, many states declined mask rules, there was no Federal mask rule...

From the other side, if the petitioner doesn't like the DOT's refusal he could sue the DOT to compel it to formulate a mask rule and have the carriers enforce it.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1853
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:38 pm

I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:50 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


The science doesn't line up with your thinking. You've been lucky so far. Anything beyond that is hubris. Additionally, you may recover, but you can get someone who is immunocompromised sick; they may not recover so easily.

As for the point about the government, AA, UA, DL etc. are private businesses and can do as they please. The government affords them freedom to do so.
 
ethernal
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:52 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


The issue with this logic is obvious. Masks are much more effective at preventing the spread of an infected person than it is at preventing someone from getting it. It is the equivalent of saying "if you don't want to fight, then don't throw punches - it's a choice" while you throw punches.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:53 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
With regards to the actual ruling, airlines can tell this person and his utterly insane ruling where to go, and what to do when he gets there, because as private businesses, they can make rules for themselves, and if they want to require masks, that's their business.


That idea may have an interesting run through the courts. Businesses can't make ANY rule they want: discrimination based on gender, race, and religion is outlawed in the U.S., for example. Somebody (funded by, oh, The Heritage Foundation, or some analogue) could make the case that a mask rule is arbitrary. The DOT declined to promulgate a mask rule, many states declined mask rules, there was no Federal mask rule...


The government can limit rules if they infringe on protected classes or violate laws only. They cannot regulate rules that do not infringe on these, no matter how ridiculous or arbitrary they are.

For example, wearing shoes or shirts is arbitrary, depending on who you ask. But as long as there is no disproportionate impact on protected classes, DL could make a rule that all passengers must sing their drink orders if they chose to do so.
 
User avatar
dennypayne
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:38 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:57 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


Sigh...it's not about the risk to *you* - it's about the risk of you having it, not knowing (asymptomatic), and passing it along to someone else who will be severely affected by it. Masks are absolutely proven to reduce this risk, so anyone that doesnt wear one is just being selfish.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:57 pm

Doesn't change anything, mask or no-mask it is up to the airline. DOT cannot force private airlines to carry passengers against airline rules.
 
TigerFlyer
Posts: 244
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:07 pm

There was no way DOT was going to issue such a mandate. DOT is an Executive Agency, and answers to the President. No way Secretary Chao (Mitch McConnell's wife) was going to put out an Order contrary to the Administration.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:08 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
With regards to the actual ruling, airlines can tell this person and his utterly insane ruling where to go, and what to do when he gets there, because as private businesses, they can make rules for themselves, and if they want to require masks, that's their business.


That idea may have an interesting run through the courts. Businesses can't make ANY rule they want: discrimination based on gender, race, and religion is outlawed in the U.S., for example. Somebody (funded by, oh, The Heritage Foundation, or some analogue) could make the case that a mask rule is arbitrary. The DOT declined to promulgate a mask rule, many states declined mask rules, there was no Federal mask rule...

From the other side, if the petitioner doesn't like the DOT's refusal he could sue the DOT to compel it to formulate a mask rule and have the carriers enforce it.

Huh? What would the basis for a lawsuit be? Even if there was a real argument that mask rules are arbitrary, there is no law against business creating arbitrary rules.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4739
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:09 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


Haven't you heard a single word from health experts around the world over the past 7 months? Masks are not about you getting other people's germs, they are about keeping your germs from getting to others. You are completely irresponsible, your "personal freedoms" are directly putting people at risk. The people around you wearing masks are doing their part to keep you from getting sick, yet you don't have the courtesy to return the favor.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25563
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:13 pm

Good.

While mask use might be common sense, the DOT would be silly trying to mandate something that even health related agencies do not require. Neither CDC, National Institutes of Health, Human & Health Services, etc mandate the use of masks. Its simply a recommendation for the American public.
Last edited by LAXintl on Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:13 pm

For the most part, the US govt. sets minimum standards. Any individual company is free to make their own rules or standards more restrictive but not less restrictive without a legit waiver. Remember how some airlines blocked middle seats and some didn't but then when traffic started coming back, they quietly started using middle seats again? Technically, it was probably safer to keep the middle seats blocked but if the DOT/FAA had mandated that middle seats be blocked, it'd take an eternity to lift the restriction.

It's a whole lot safer to stay in your basement eating takeout food all the time as well so it all depends on where you want to draw the line. Private industry can react faster to changing issues than any government agency can.

We really don't want to any farther down the path of having the government make all of our decisions for us. Some of us still have common sense.

FriscoHeavy - 100% :checkmark:
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3731
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:19 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


Haven't you heard a single word from health experts around the world over the past 7 months? Masks are not about you getting other people's germs, they are about keeping your germs from getting to others. You are completely irresponsible, your "personal freedoms" are directly putting people at risk. The people around you wearing masks are doing their part to keep you from getting sick, yet you don't have the courtesy to return the favor.


I think what people get upset about is why is it then someones responsibility towards the health of another if its not something done on purpose? A lot of sayings going the way of "its protecting others, not about you", so someone as an individual doesn't matter? not allowed to think about yourself only others?
 
visual8L
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 8:17 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:19 pm

Freedoms and rights come with huge responsibility and even bigger consequences. Wielding those irresponsibly can be like wafting your own stink when it’s mixed with arrogance/ignorance and especially your own ethereal faith convictions. Empathy doesn’t take away rights. It doesn’t cost a thing. Live a big happy life guided by the brain you were given and respect others. It’s not always easy. It’s not written in stone. And it’s not all about you.
 
User avatar
FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 477
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:24 pm

I wear a mask, not to protect myself, but rather to protect those around me. I live my life...actively supporting the economy. However, that means I'm more at risk to contract and carry the virus than someone who holds up at home. That said, I have a responsibility to limit the risks for others. So, I wear a mask when around others or in indoor spaces (other than my own home/car) so that I don't pass it on to them. I wash my hands and face allot.

I've tested negative for Covid twice. My line of work is classified as essential, and I've had to travel several times during the Covid season and been required to do quarantines. I'm certain, that if I contract the virus, I will be among the 99.9% who are fine and show almost no symptoms as I'm a healthy active individual. What I can't be certain of is that other persons who contract the virus from me in passing will be so fortunate. So, I wear a mask to mitigate the danger I pose to others and will do so for a bit longer.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4739
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:26 pm

CALMSP wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


Haven't you heard a single word from health experts around the world over the past 7 months? Masks are not about you getting other people's germs, they are about keeping your germs from getting to others. You are completely irresponsible, your "personal freedoms" are directly putting people at risk. The people around you wearing masks are doing their part to keep you from getting sick, yet you don't have the courtesy to return the favor.


I think what people get upset about is why is it then someones responsibility towards the health of another if its not something done on purpose? A lot of sayings going the way of "its protecting others, not about you", so someone as an individual doesn't matter? not allowed to think about yourself only others?


Because personal freedom comes with the responsibility to not put others at risk to exercise your freedom. Your freedom stops at the point where it begins to negatively affect others.
Last edited by jetmatt777 on Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
gonnagetbumpy
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 4:16 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:26 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.



A logic of, "Your chance of dying because I chose not to wear a mask" is a pretty low bar. I also have a right to not get sick because you chose not to wear a mask. I'm curious, do you wear a seatbelt when in a car or on a plane? That is required (I believe in most states and in the air) and by your same logic would be "infringing on your rights". I hate wearing masks but also see the data that supports their use. Compassion and care of others is still important and needed in our world and I would be upset with myself if I made someone's life worse (I made them sick) because I chose not to do something that causes me very little effort.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10054
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:27 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
With regards to the actual ruling, airlines can tell this person and his utterly insane ruling where to go, and what to do when he gets there, because as private businesses, they can make rules for themselves, and if they want to require masks, that's their business.


That idea may have an interesting run through the courts. Businesses can't make ANY rule they want: discrimination based on gender, race, and religion is outlawed in the U.S., for example. Somebody (funded by, oh, The Heritage Foundation, or some analogue) could make the case that a mask rule is arbitrary. The DOT declined to promulgate a mask rule, many states declined mask rules, there was no Federal mask rule...

From the other side, if the petitioner doesn't like the DOT's refusal he could sue the DOT to compel it to formulate a mask rule and have the carriers enforce it.

Huh? What would the basis for a lawsuit be? Even if there was a real argument that mask rules are arbitrary, there is no law against business creating arbitrary rules.


The FTC can sue to prohibit unfair practices, defined as an unfair act or
practice as one that “causes or is likely to cause substantial injury to consumers which is not
reasonably avoidable by consumers themselves and not outweighed by countervailing benefits to
consumers and to competition.”

The absence of Federal order (by the CDC, DOT...) is a good argument that there are not adequate countervailing benefits.

There are also unconscionable contracts - these can't be enforced. Carrier contracts of carriage aren't negotiated with passengers. Plenty of travelers can argue that they are in a city only served by carrier XX and have no real no choice but to fly XX or not at all.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10054
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:31 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Because personal freedom comes with the responsibility to not put others at risk to exercise your freedom. Your freedom stops at the point where it begins to negatively affect others.


That's been abundantly demonstrated in U.S. state law - anti-smoking provisions in public places, for example. How many times did the 'my rights!' fools lose on that?
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1046
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:32 pm

lightsaber wrote:
OMG. I am a huge constitutionalist, but I support masks. They have been shown, if worn properly (not a chin diaper) to reduce the chance of infection by 77% and more importantly, reduce the viral loading upon infection to such a low level that it is a mild to asymptomatic case.

I'm flying for Thanksgiving and I will wear a mask and a face shield per advice from my sister, a doctor in a Covid19 ward.

My opinion is bad advice for the start of flu season as flu+Covid19 is really bad. Got flu vaccine?

Lightsaber


The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons say otherwise. https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

Now, how will the DOT react to this when complaints starting rolling in. Just like the animal support debacle, this is the next one up. From a legality stand point, the DOT didn't help the airlines here one bit.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:33 pm

CALMSP wrote:
I think what people get upset about is why is it then someones responsibility towards the health of another if its not something done on purpose? A lot of sayings going the way of "its protecting others, not about you", so someone as an individual doesn't matter? not allowed to think about yourself only others?


When the only thing the individual is giving up is having to wearing a mask, its hard to justify saying that "you don't matter" when the downside is someone else getting severely ill and potentially dying.

It's not like the individual is being asked to starve and give up their house for others. It's just wearing a mask. No different than asking someone to wear deodorant in public.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3731
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:09 pm

Antarius wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
I think what people get upset about is why is it then someones responsibility towards the health of another if its not something done on purpose? A lot of sayings going the way of "its protecting others, not about you", so someone as an individual doesn't matter? not allowed to think about yourself only others?


When the only thing the individual is giving up is having to wearing a mask, its hard to justify saying that "you don't matter" when the downside is someone else getting severely ill and potentially dying.

It's not like the individual is being asked to starve and give up their house for others. It's just wearing a mask. No different than asking someone to wear deodorant in public.


well, people simply do not like others telling them what to do. Its such a strange thing that the left is hung up on these masks about the health of others and the government telling people to wear them..............but yet do not want the government to limit abortion saying its the mothers right. Such hypocrites.

Glad the DOT is not getting involved in this matter, it really is nothing to do with their day to day functions.
 
ethernal
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:09 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
OMG. I am a huge constitutionalist, but I support masks. They have been shown, if worn properly (not a chin diaper) to reduce the chance of infection by 77% and more importantly, reduce the viral loading upon infection to such a low level that it is a mild to asymptomatic case.

I'm flying for Thanksgiving and I will wear a mask and a face shield per advice from my sister, a doctor in a Covid19 ward.

My opinion is bad advice for the start of flu season as flu+Covid19 is really bad. Got flu vaccine?

Lightsaber


The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons say otherwise. https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

Now, how will the DOT react to this when complaints starting rolling in. Just like the animal support debacle, this is the next one up. From a legality stand point, the DOT didn't help the airlines here one bit.


The AAPS represents less than .4% of American doctors.

From Wikipedia:

"The group was reported to have about 5,000 members in 2014. The association has promoted a range of scientifically discredited hypotheses, including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, that being gay reduces life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer, and that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism."


The American Medical Association is the primary professional organization of medical workers in the US. While I am not a huge fan of the AMA (they lobby to reduce the number of physicians by limiting residencies slots and other mechanisms which raises medical costs), they are a respected organization. This is what they say:

"This is why as physicians, nurses, hospital and health system leaders, researchers and public health experts, we are urging the American public to take the simple steps we know will help stop the spread of the virus: wearing a face mask, maintaining physical distancing, and washing hands.
Last edited by ethernal on Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
TMccrury
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:24 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:10 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.



I'm with you on this one. It is my opinion if we are going to do mandate mask for Covid-19 we should mandate them for the Flu. The same rationale applies. Both are transmitted pretty much the same way. Sadly, Covid-19 has become a politicized and folks are spreading a lot of fear about it. Here is another thought, the Constitution does not cease to exist just because of a Pandemic. It is still enforce regardless. As someone else said, If you if you give the Government an inch, they take a mile and there is no end to it.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3731
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:14 pm

TMccrury wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.



I'm with you on this one. It is my opinion if we are going to do mandate mask for Covid-19 we should mandate them for the Flu. The same rationale applies. Both are transmitted pretty much the same way. Sadly, Covid-19 has become a politicized and folks are spreading a lot of fear about it. Here is another thought, the Constitution does not cease to exist just because of a Pandemic. It is still enforce regardless. As someone else said, If you if you give the Government an inch, they take a mile and there is no end to it.



with all this mask wearing, I'm wondering why there is flu shots this year, shouldn't we all be safe from the masks??!!

(no way this thread lasts past today before its closed! :). )
 
Newark727
Posts: 2556
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:18 pm

It is absolutely bizarre to consider masks as some kind of authoritarian power play. You can find much more egregious violations of peoples' rights, and much more consequential rearrangements in political power, in minutes, or seconds, if you care to look.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:23 pm

CALMSP wrote:
Antarius wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
I think what people get upset about is why is it then someones responsibility towards the health of another if its not something done on purpose? A lot of sayings going the way of "its protecting others, not about you", so someone as an individual doesn't matter? not allowed to think about yourself only others?


When the only thing the individual is giving up is having to wearing a mask, its hard to justify saying that "you don't matter" when the downside is someone else getting severely ill and potentially dying.

It's not like the individual is being asked to starve and give up their house for others. It's just wearing a mask. No different than asking someone to wear deodorant in public.


well, people simply do not like others telling them what to do. Its such a strange thing that the left is hung up on these masks about the health of others and the government telling people to wear them..............but yet do not want the government to limit abortion saying its the mothers right. Such hypocrites.

Glad the DOT is not getting involved in this matter, it really is nothing to do with their day to day functions.


This is not a left vs right thing. It's common courtesy and science.

You have absolutely no idea whether I'm a liberal, conservative, libertarian or green party member; all I've said is I follow advice from people smarter than me in this field (i'm not a epidemiologist or virologist or infectious disease specialist) and that this is a stupid hill to die on.
 
n92r03
Posts: 563
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:46 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:26 pm

I'm not getting into the mask debate I'm about common sense and whatever works for you and personally I like the social distancing thing for about 99% of the people in public (always have had my own version of this), I like my personal space. That being said, I flew last weekend on WN. Aircraft were clean and arrived safely on-time, great. The issue I have is the inconsistencies with the FA's. Outbound legs were pretty normal, FA's politely asked people to wear their masks, etc. No issues. Inbound legs were a bit different. FA's going nuts over a lady trying to drink her coffee, literally wearing her mask properly and only moving it to take a sip. Then second leg had another FA throwing a hissy fit as a lady had purchased a can of apparently wine at the concession in the airport and she brought it on the aircraft...oh the horror! The FA was berating the lady about it being a federal offense, etc. I'm not questioning his knowledge of said federal rules, but the grandstanding power trip was unnecessary. It was a bit entertaining as the air marshall that was seated across the aisle rolled his eyes when the "federal offense" bulljive started. Upon arrival the FA's were screaming at everyone to sit in our seats until the aisle was clear to keep "social distancing". Loads of fun flying these days I tell you.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:27 pm

Newark727 wrote:
It is absolutely bizarre to consider masks as some kind of authoritarian power play. You can find much more egregious violations of peoples' rights, and much more consequential rearrangements in political power, in minutes, or seconds, if you care to look.


And far more important things that have impact. But yes, its so clear .. first masks then dictatorship :roll:

I'm fine with the DOT not mandating masks. This is not a DOT issue. It is a public health issue and should be handled by the appropriate departments. And finally, the US airlines are private companies and it is fascinating that those yelling for freedom somehow have an issue with the company being free to set their own rules.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1853
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:31 pm

Antarius wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
It is absolutely bizarre to consider masks as some kind of authoritarian power play. You can find much more egregious violations of peoples' rights, and much more consequential rearrangements in political power, in minutes, or seconds, if you care to look.


And far more important things that have impact. But yes, its so clear .. first masks then dictatorship :roll:

I'm fine with the DOT not mandating masks. This is not a DOT issue. It is a public health issue and should be handled by the appropriate departments. And finally, the US airlines are private companies and it is fascinating that those yelling for freedom somehow have an issue with the company being free to set their own rules.


I never said I had an issue with a private company setting their rules. I believe private enterprises can do as such. I haven't seen such shouting on anywhere near a regular basis.
 
LOT767301ER
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:14 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:32 pm

dennypayne wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


Sigh...it's not about the risk to *you* - it's about the risk of you having it, not knowing (asymptomatic), and passing it along to someone else who will be severely affected by it. Masks are absolutely proven to reduce this risk, so anyone that doesnt wear one is just being selfish.


Not really, weak must die for the strong to live. This is called nature. In this case the weak are old and have many co-morbidities.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3731
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:34 pm

Antarius wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
Antarius wrote:

When the only thing the individual is giving up is having to wearing a mask, its hard to justify saying that "you don't matter" when the downside is someone else getting severely ill and potentially dying.

It's not like the individual is being asked to starve and give up their house for others. It's just wearing a mask. No different than asking someone to wear deodorant in public.


well, people simply do not like others telling them what to do. Its such a strange thing that the left is hung up on these masks about the health of others and the government telling people to wear them..............but yet do not want the government to limit abortion saying its the mothers right. Such hypocrites.

Glad the DOT is not getting involved in this matter, it really is nothing to do with their day to day functions.


This is not a left vs right thing. It's common courtesy and science.

You have absolutely no idea whether I'm a liberal, conservative, libertarian or green party member; all I've said is I follow advice from people smarter than me in this field (i'm not a epidemiologist or virologist or infectious disease specialist) and that this is a stupid hill to die on.


of course I don't, but its also a common courtesy not to kill a baby, no?



All these airlines knew it was going to be controversial mandating this, and thats why no one was willing to do so, then, all of a sudden, they cared about the health of pax and employees, no, they did it b/c someone else did it, not based on "science". Its always a follow the leader mentality, b/c Coronavirus has turned out to be all about money. Which is why we see hospitals reporting false deaths so they can get additional funds.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4739
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:34 pm

LOT767301ER wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


Sigh...it's not about the risk to *you* - it's about the risk of you having it, not knowing (asymptomatic), and passing it along to someone else who will be severely affected by it. Masks are absolutely proven to reduce this risk, so anyone that doesnt wear one is just being selfish.


Not really, weak must die for the strong to live. This is called nature. In this case the weak are old and have many co-morbidities.


That is how it works in nature, but many thousands of years ago humans decided to no longer follow nature's rules. We have decided to pool our resources, including knowledge and technology, to establish society. Society protects the weak and ill.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:37 pm

CALMSP wrote:
Antarius wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

well, people simply do not like others telling them what to do. Its such a strange thing that the left is hung up on these masks about the health of others and the government telling people to wear them..............but yet do not want the government to limit abortion saying its the mothers right. Such hypocrites.

Glad the DOT is not getting involved in this matter, it really is nothing to do with their day to day functions.


This is not a left vs right thing. It's common courtesy and science.

You have absolutely no idea whether I'm a liberal, conservative, libertarian or green party member; all I've said is I follow advice from people smarter than me in this field (i'm not a epidemiologist or virologist or infectious disease specialist) and that this is a stupid hill to die on.


of course I don't, but its also a common courtesy not to kill a baby, no?



All these airlines knew it was going to be controversial mandating this, and thats why no one was willing to do so, then, all of a sudden, they cared about the health of pax and employees, no, they did it b/c someone else did it, not based on "science". Its always a follow the leader mentality, b/c Coronavirus has turned out to be all about money. Which is why we see hospitals reporting false deaths so they can get additional funds.


The whole world has shut down, resulting in huge amounts of bailouts and stimulus and monetary injection... all of this was because of money? Is this the new strategy where you spend a lot, get nothing back and somehow become rich?

Come on. If you're going to tin foil, at least make a coherent argument.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2833
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:38 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


Wearing a mask does not infringe anyone's rights, it does not hamper your ability to breathe at all, it is at absolute worst a very mild inconvenience. I think it's very selfish of people to not take the simple step of wearing one, people that haven't been wearing masks have their share of responsibility for people getting infected and suffering from the virus. It's all well and good saying that you haven't been affected, but that is merely luck, if one person at your party had the virus, they'd probably have infected at least some of you, it is very contagious.

You might think you're minding your own business, but in reality people like you are costing lives and causing suffering. The lives and wellbeing of many people are worth more than the miniscule inconvenience of wearing a mask.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:39 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
It is absolutely bizarre to consider masks as some kind of authoritarian power play. You can find much more egregious violations of peoples' rights, and much more consequential rearrangements in political power, in minutes, or seconds, if you care to look.


And far more important things that have impact. But yes, its so clear .. first masks then dictatorship :roll:

I'm fine with the DOT not mandating masks. This is not a DOT issue. It is a public health issue and should be handled by the appropriate departments. And finally, the US airlines are private companies and it is fascinating that those yelling for freedom somehow have an issue with the company being free to set their own rules.


I never said I had an issue with a private company setting their rules. I believe private enterprises can do as such. I haven't seen such shouting on anywhere near a regular basis.


You didn't, but many have and do. The people throwing hissy fits in airports, airplanes, grocery stores are. Those citing the first amendment (clearly failed civics) are. Those who are making fake ADA cards to bypass things are.

There is a large number of freedom supporters who refuse to acknowledge the freedom of a private business to decline service for not following their rules.
Last edited by Antarius on Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Babyshark
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:40 pm

lightsaber wrote:
OMG. I am a huge constitutionalist, but I support masks. They have been shown, if worn properly (not a chin diaper) to reduce the chance of infection by 77% and more importantly, reduce the viral loading upon infection to such a low level that it is a mild to asymptomatic case.

I'm flying for Thanksgiving and I will wear a mask and a face shield per advice from my sister, a doctor in a Covid19 ward.

My opinion is bad advice for the start of flu season as flu+Covid19 is really bad. Got flu vaccine?

Lightsaber


I'll be flying aircraft, with no mask. And taking them off a lot as I walk through the airport. And messing with it a lot. Knowing it doesn't do a thing, because science says so.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3731
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:42 pm

Antarius wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
Antarius wrote:

This is not a left vs right thing. It's common courtesy and science.

You have absolutely no idea whether I'm a liberal, conservative, libertarian or green party member; all I've said is I follow advice from people smarter than me in this field (i'm not a epidemiologist or virologist or infectious disease specialist) and that this is a stupid hill to die on.


of course I don't, but its also a common courtesy not to kill a baby, no?



All these airlines knew it was going to be controversial mandating this, and thats why no one was willing to do so, then, all of a sudden, they cared about the health of pax and employees, no, they did it b/c someone else did it, not based on "science". Its always a follow the leader mentality, b/c Coronavirus has turned out to be all about money. Which is why we see hospitals reporting false deaths so they can get additional funds.


The whole world has shut down, resulting in huge amounts of bailouts and stimulus and monetary injection... all of this was because of money? Is this the new strategy where you spend a lot, get nothing back and somehow become rich?

Come on. If you're going to tin foil, at least make a coherent argument.


in the US it is about money. Why do we keep seeing reports come out from all over the US of people who did not die of coronavirus but their death certificates are listed as COVID-19? Because the hospital receives money. There is no shortage of details available on the internet for anyone to find, this is not new.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1853
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:43 pm

LOT767301ER wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


Sigh...it's not about the risk to *you* - it's about the risk of you having it, not knowing (asymptomatic), and passing it along to someone else who will be severely affected by it. Masks are absolutely proven to reduce this risk, so anyone that doesnt wear one is just being selfish.


Not really, weak must die for the strong to live. This is called nature. In this case the weak are old and have many co-morbidities.


That's exactly right and EXACTLY what we have seen. Look, I'm not going to change the peoples' minds who are afraid of their own shadows (and that's fine - I respect other's to believe as they choose, whether or not it's rational).

I won't get into the nitty gritty details, but high level based on the claims we've seen (directly related to death):

1. Average age of death: 78-79.
2. Co-morbities involved.
3. Regardless of Corona or any other illness, we statistically expected these people to die within the following 2-3 years based on their age and life expectancy.

Can you find the oddball (35 year old healthy person) that gets it and dies? Of course. But you get that with any illness (disease, cancer, etc). But if you actually look at the statistics, it's not a death sentence by any stretch of the imagination. Those who are known be in a 'high risk' are likely staying home and protecting themselves.
What we've found is that even those that are 'high risk', a vast majority of them are even surviving. People are paranoid and that, along with the mental health side effects are worse than the disease itself, unfortunately.

As mentioned, there are a small minority of people who really should take it seriously and stay home, but for a vast majority, parading around with your mask thinking you're saving the world is not reality. Again, I'm about people having a choice. I respect your choice if that's what you want to do and will not belittle you, but that same courtesy and respect should be shown for us to want to live our normal lives. It can be done for 99.9% of people if you want it to.

We should respect opposing view points.

Cheers,
 
Babyshark
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:44 pm

n92r03 wrote:
I'm not getting into the mask debate I'm about common sense and whatever works for you and personally I like the social distancing thing for about 99% of the people in public (always have had my own version of this), I like my personal space. That being said, I flew last weekend on WN. Aircraft were clean and arrived safely on-time, great. The issue I have is the inconsistencies with the FA's. Outbound legs were pretty normal, FA's politely asked people to wear their masks, etc. No issues. Inbound legs were a bit different. FA's going nuts over a lady trying to drink her coffee, literally wearing her mask properly and only moving it to take a sip. Then second leg had another FA throwing a hissy fit as a lady had purchased a can of apparently wine at the concession in the airport and she brought it on the aircraft...oh the horror! The FA was berating the lady about it being a federal offense, etc. I'm not questioning his knowledge of said federal rules, but the grandstanding power trip was unnecessary. It was a bit entertaining as the air marshall that was seated across the aisle rolled his eyes when the "federal offense" bulljive started. Upon arrival the FA's were screaming at everyone to sit in our seats until the aisle was clear to keep "social distancing". Loads of fun flying these days I tell you.


^^^^^^^^^^ this. Mask nazis do more damage to the industry then covid.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:46 pm

CALMSP wrote:
Antarius wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

of course I don't, but its also a common courtesy not to kill a baby, no?



All these airlines knew it was going to be controversial mandating this, and thats why no one was willing to do so, then, all of a sudden, they cared about the health of pax and employees, no, they did it b/c someone else did it, not based on "science". Its always a follow the leader mentality, b/c Coronavirus has turned out to be all about money. Which is why we see hospitals reporting false deaths so they can get additional funds.


The whole world has shut down, resulting in huge amounts of bailouts and stimulus and monetary injection... all of this was because of money? Is this the new strategy where you spend a lot, get nothing back and somehow become rich?

Come on. If you're going to tin foil, at least make a coherent argument.


in the US it is about money. Why do we keep seeing reports come out from all over the US of people who did not die of coronavirus but their death certificates are listed as COVID-19? Because the hospital receives money. There is no shortage of details available on the internet for anyone to find, this is not new.


So some people who are incorrectly profiting from a pandemic means that the entire thing is a hoax.

Brilliant.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 843
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:47 pm

Its hypocritical for airlines to pass out drinks and snacks, invite you to eat them but then "require" masks.

Which is it? Virus spreads while you are munching on snacks, producing excess saliva that gets projected into the air while smacking with your mouth open and chatting with your travel companion, or NOT?

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