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Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:48 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
LOT767301ER wrote:
dennypayne wrote:

Sigh...it's not about the risk to *you* - it's about the risk of you having it, not knowing (asymptomatic), and passing it along to someone else who will be severely affected by it. Masks are absolutely proven to reduce this risk, so anyone that doesnt wear one is just being selfish.


Not really, weak must die for the strong to live. This is called nature. In this case the weak are old and have many co-morbidities.


That's exactly right and EXACTLY what we have seen. Look, I'm not going to change the peoples' minds who are afraid of their own shadows (and that's fine - I respect other's to believe as they choose, whether or not it's rational).

I won't get into the nitty gritty details, but high level based on the claims we've seen (directly related to death):

1. Average age of death: 78-79.
2. Co-morbities involved.
3. Regardless of Corona or any other illness, we statistically expected these people to die within the following 2-3 years based on their age and life expectancy.

Can you find the oddball (35 year old healthy person) that gets it and dies? Of course. But you get that with any illness (disease, cancer, etc). But if you actually look at the statistics, it's not a death sentence by any stretch of the imagination. Those who are known be in a 'high risk' are likely staying home and protecting themselves.
What we've found is that even those that are 'high risk', a vast majority of them are even surviving. People are paranoid and that, along with the mental health side effects are worse than the disease itself, unfortunately.

As mentioned, there are a small minority of people who really should take it seriously and stay home, but for a vast majority, parading around with your mask thinking you're saving the world is not reality. Again, I'm about people having a choice. I respect your choice if that's what you want to do and will not belittle you, but that same courtesy and respect should be shown for us to want to live our normal lives. It can be done for 99.9% of people if you want it to.

We should respect opposing view points.

Cheers,


See, here is the problem with this. Let's say I have strep throat. Do you want me to cough near you? I doubt it - you're hope is that I cover my cough, try to not travel when infectious and be judicious in my interactions with others.

Or, as you say, you can respect my right to do whatever I want and spew a infectious bacteria all over by coughing near you. Is that really what you want?
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:50 pm

TMccrury wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.



I'm with you on this one. It is my opinion if we are going to do mandate mask for Covid-19 we should mandate them for the Flu. The same rationale applies. Both are transmitted pretty much the same way. Sadly, Covid-19 has become a politicized and folks are spreading a lot of fear about it. Here is another thought, the Constitution does not cease to exist just because of a Pandemic. It is still enforce regardless. As someone else said, If you if you give the Government an inch, they take a mile and there is no end to it.

You do realize that if Airlines still enforce the mask wearing policy you are going to have to comply right? Unless you plan on to sue the airlines. Sure the government is not overreaching here but business can do whatever they want.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:50 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Its hypocritical for airlines to pass out drinks and snacks, invite you to eat them but then "require" masks.

Which is it? Virus spreads while you are munching on snacks, producing excess saliva that gets projected into the air while smacking with your mouth open and chatting with your travel companion, or NOT?


Not really. It's like asking you to wear a seatbelt due to unexpected turbulence but also allowing you to go to the bathroom. The more time you have a seatbelt, the less likely you are to get hurt with unexpected clear air turbulence.

Sure, you can STILL get hurt if you are moving around, but the chances are lowered overall. Same thing with masks.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2553
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:51 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
People are paranoid and that, along with the mental health side effects are worse than the disease itself, unfortunately.


People keep saying this, but there were about 48,000 suicides in the United States in 2018, pre-COVID. We now have around 200,000 COVID-19 related deaths. For the cure to be worse than the disease, w/r/t mental health, suicides in the USA would have to more than quadruple.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1852
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:54 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Its hypocritical for airlines to pass out drinks and snacks, invite you to eat them but then "require" masks.

Which is it? Virus spreads while you are munching on snacks, producing excess saliva that gets projected into the air while smacking with your mouth open and chatting with your travel companion, or NOT?


And I'll tell you, ColbaltScar, that's the biggest issue I have with it. The hypocrisy. There are too many to list, but:

1. Enter/exit the plane row by row, but yet stand neck and neck with someone on the jetway.
2. They can pass out water in a plastic cup, they stewards and stewardesses have been handling, but won't hand you a coke, beer, food or any other beverage.
3. Leaving the middle seat open (which I like from a comfort perspective), but it has no extra 'safety' when you have people a breath away in front of or behind you. *There have been no noted outbreaks from planes with middle seat open vs all seats filled.

Unfortunately, people have bought into this and I just don't see why. If you're that paranoid with life (and some of our friends are), then don't leave the house, order all your food and pick it up. Again, I respect what you choose to do, but from a 'science' perspective as all the mask lovers like to tout, there are a lot of holes to poke.

We all have an expiration date and thankfully, for 99.9% of us, 'high risk' or not, this isn't going to be what kills you.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 843
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:59 pm

Antarius wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Its hypocritical for airlines to pass out drinks and snacks, invite you to eat them but then "require" masks.

Which is it? Virus spreads while you are munching on snacks, producing excess saliva that gets projected into the air while smacking with your mouth open and chatting with your travel companion, or NOT?


Not really. It's like asking you to wear a seatbelt due to unexpected turbulence but also allowing you to go to the bathroom. The more time you have a seatbelt, the less likely you are to get hurt with unexpected clear air turbulence.

Sure, you can STILL get hurt if you are moving around, but the chances are lowered overall. Same thing with masks.



You are not allowed to go to the bathroom when the seatbelt sign is on though. Yes I know people break this rule all the time too and the FA is not going to tackle you and stop you from going, but they will try to convince you to wait until the seatbelt sign is off.

Passing out snacks is a direct airline sponsored invitation to remove your mask, produce saliva and project covid.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2553
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:00 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
We all have an expiration date and thankfully, for 99.9% of us, 'high risk' or not, this isn't going to be what kills you.


I mean, there are a lot of things that aren't going to be what kill us, that we still take considerable pains to prevent. The difference with COVID-19 isn't really the scale of the disruption, it's the very compressed length of time over which it took place. Look at the billions of dollars spent on traffic safety, and just how different a car sold today is from one sold in 1970.
Last edited by Newark727 on Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1898
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:00 pm

lightsaber wrote:
OMG. I am a huge constitutionalist, but I support masks. They have been shown, if worn properly (not a chin diaper) to reduce the chance of infection by 77% and more importantly, reduce the viral loading upon infection to such a low level that it is a mild to asymptomatic case.

I'm flying for Thanksgiving and I will wear a mask and a face shield per advice from my sister, a doctor in a Covid19 ward.

My opinion is bad advice for the start of flu season as flu+Covid19 is really bad. Got flu vaccine?

Lightsaber


Respectfully, where has this been shown?

Masks, including surgical masks, were not designed to prevent viral infections; N95 masks are to protect the patient from bacterial infections in the OR (where they may or may not work). What's the point at all, even with those, of not changing them every 2 hours?

At risk populations should just avoid air travel, and/or seek specialized transport, but the rest of the world needs to get on with life. The lockdowns and mask mandates do next to nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvFhIF ... =emb_title

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

"What literature that is available on the subject tends to be dated with poorly explained methodology. There is also uncertainty over whether the results of such studies can be extrapolated to current surgical practice given the advent of new antiseptic techniques since they were completed. The evidence base investigating the effects of facemask usage on patient-based outcomes is, in general, more extensive than that of surgeon-centred outcomes. Facemasks do have a clear role in maintaining the social cleanliness of surgical staff, but evidence is lacking to suggest that they confer protection from infection either to patients or to the surgeons that wear them."


studies of the general population...

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

"Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza."

Seems the Dutch agreed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohe ... nsmission/

"Dutch public health officials and the national government are unbending with respect to what they consider to be lack of scientific evidence on the efficacy of non-medical masks in limiting the spread of the novel coronavirus. On Wednesday, July 29th, at a press conference, officials maintained the line they've adopted since March: "There's no scientific evidence for the efficacy of non-medical masks.""

I believe 99 or more percent of the masks worn today in public are mere theater, to demonstrate compliance/concern and avoid confrontation.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1852
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:03 pm

Antarius wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
LOT767301ER wrote:

Not really, weak must die for the strong to live. This is called nature. In this case the weak are old and have many co-morbidities.


That's exactly right and EXACTLY what we have seen. Look, I'm not going to change the peoples' minds who are afraid of their own shadows (and that's fine - I respect other's to believe as they choose, whether or not it's rational).

I won't get into the nitty gritty details, but high level based on the claims we've seen (directly related to death):

1. Average age of death: 78-79.
2. Co-morbities involved.
3. Regardless of Corona or any other illness, we statistically expected these people to die within the following 2-3 years based on their age and life expectancy.

Can you find the oddball (35 year old healthy person) that gets it and dies? Of course. But you get that with any illness (disease, cancer, etc). But if you actually look at the statistics, it's not a death sentence by any stretch of the imagination. Those who are known be in a 'high risk' are likely staying home and protecting themselves.
What we've found is that even those that are 'high risk', a vast majority of them are even surviving. People are paranoid and that, along with the mental health side effects are worse than the disease itself, unfortunately.

As mentioned, there are a small minority of people who really should take it seriously and stay home, but for a vast majority, parading around with your mask thinking you're saving the world is not reality. Again, I'm about people having a choice. I respect your choice if that's what you want to do and will not belittle you, but that same courtesy and respect should be shown for us to want to live our normal lives. It can be done for 99.9% of people if you want it to.

We should respect opposing view points.

Cheers,


See, here is the problem with this. Let's say I have strep throat. Do you want me to cough near you? I doubt it - you're hope is that I cover my cough, try to not travel when infectious and be judicious in my interactions with others.

Or, as you say, you can respect my right to do whatever I want and spew a infectious bacteria all over by coughing near you. Is that really what you want?



1. I don't intentionally cough on anyone. I turn my head away from people.
2. Just because you cough, I don't presume you have Corona because there is an overwhelming likelihood it's something benign.
3. I occasionally have a dry cough seasonally, but I don't have the 'Rona.
4. I don't fear life like some many. We all die, but the chance you dying from the 'Rona --- **ALMOST** zero. Nothing is zero. There is risk to everything you do in life. I'm not the most risk averse person you can imagine in life, but have zero fear of contracting or dying from it because it's statistically such a remote possibility. If I do? Well, then it was simply my time.

So tell me this. When does the mask mandate end? Because as it stands now, never.

When there is a vaccine? Once 50% of the world has been vaccinated? What about the ~1/3 of people who have said they will not get the vaccine? Are we going to pander to them forever because they won't get the vaccine and continue to wear a mask?

Respectfully, if you (mask believers) believe in 'the science', then the production of a negative CoronaVirus test should be sufficient to be anywhere, including a plane without a mask because as the 'science' states, masks don't protect you, they protect others from you. If you don't have it, then you don't have anything to pass on to someone else. And if a mask isn't going to prevent you from getting it, why where one?

So again, I respect your view, but I'm not going to live my life that way. As I've previously mentioned, I believe others have a right to where a hazmat suit or anything in between if it makes them 'feel' safer. That's their choice and I respect it as you aren't bothering me by doing so. I just ask that same courtesy from the mask believers, that's all.

Sincerely,
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:10 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Antarius wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Its hypocritical for airlines to pass out drinks and snacks, invite you to eat them but then "require" masks.

Which is it? Virus spreads while you are munching on snacks, producing excess saliva that gets projected into the air while smacking with your mouth open and chatting with your travel companion, or NOT?


Not really. It's like asking you to wear a seatbelt due to unexpected turbulence but also allowing you to go to the bathroom. The more time you have a seatbelt, the less likely you are to get hurt with unexpected clear air turbulence.

Sure, you can STILL get hurt if you are moving around, but the chances are lowered overall. Same thing with masks.



You are not allowed to go to the bathroom when the seatbelt sign is on though. Yes I know people break this rule all the time too and the FA is not going to tackle you and stop you from going, but they will try to convince you to wait until the seatbelt sign is off.

Passing out snacks is a direct airline sponsored invitation to remove your mask, produce saliva and project covid.


For a limited period of time.

But yes, I see your point. I just don't know how an airline would be able to get by saying you can fly for many hours but nothing passed out to drink.
 
User avatar
Rookie87
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:18 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Its hypocritical for airlines to pass out drinks and snacks, invite you to eat them but then "require" masks.

Which is it? Virus spreads while you are munching on snacks, producing excess saliva that gets projected into the air while smacking with your mouth open and chatting with your travel companion, or NOT?


Think about what you just wrote...how hard and in what way would you chewing spew out spit droplets the way you just described....how?? I pictured me eating with my mouth wide open and nah...seriously explain this to us, I'm curious.

If this has nothing to do with the DOT, then they shouldn't or wouldn't have anything to say about it. It's a public health issue as far as I see it.

I do find the logic in this thread to be amazing. I hate wearing a mask but I still wear it where I need to so I don't unknowingly get someone sick regardless of how I "feel" about it. This nightmare needs to end
 
kimimm19
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:26 pm

Antarius wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


The science doesn't line up with your thinking. You've been lucky so far. Anything beyond that is hubris. Additionally, you may recover, but you can get someone who is immunocompromised sick; they may not recover so easily.

As for the point about the government, AA, UA, DL etc. are private businesses and can do as they please. The government affords them freedom to do so.


The emotionalism in your post is just as telling as the over sanitised world we live in today.

People die, especially the unhealthy. You can't stop nature.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2553
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:32 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
The emotionalism in your post is just as telling as the over sanitised world we live in today.

People die, especially the unhealthy. You can't stop nature.


Easy to say, when you're not the one on the ventilator...
 
hl8208
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:34 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:32 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


Wearing a seatbelt isn't 100% effective. Wearing a seatbelt also isn't all about you, it's about not becoming a projectile and hurting others who may be sitting in front of you. Does your idea of "personal liberty" get in the way of wearing a seatbelt? Do you ever choose not to wear a seatbelt because "not everyone who gets in a car accident dies?" Probably not. History does't take kindly to the whiners who b*tched and moaned about having to wear belts when they were mandated by the government, and I can guarantee that it'll be the same when future generations look back at this pandemic.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:36 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


The science doesn't line up with your thinking. You've been lucky so far. Anything beyond that is hubris. Additionally, you may recover, but you can get someone who is immunocompromised sick; they may not recover so easily.

As for the point about the government, AA, UA, DL etc. are private businesses and can do as they please. The government affords them freedom to do so.


The emotionalism in your post is just as telling as the over sanitised world we live in today.

People die, especially the unhealthy. You can't stop nature.


The lack of understanding of the concept of society is more telling. If you choose not to participate, why bother flying?
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1852
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:38 pm

hl8208 wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


Wearing a seatbelt isn't 100% effective. Wearing a seatbelt also isn't all about you, it's about not becoming a projectile and hurting others who may be sitting in front of you. Does your idea of "personal liberty" get in the way of wearing a seatbelt? Do you ever choose not to wear a seatbelt because "not everyone who gets in a car accident dies?" Probably not. History does't take kindly to the whiners who b*tched and moaned about having to wear belts when they were mandated by the government, and I can guarantee that it'll be the same when future generations look back at this pandemic.



Well, we can simply agree to disagree. That's truly okay!
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3722
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:39 pm

Antarius wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
Antarius wrote:

The whole world has shut down, resulting in huge amounts of bailouts and stimulus and monetary injection... all of this was because of money? Is this the new strategy where you spend a lot, get nothing back and somehow become rich?

Come on. If you're going to tin foil, at least make a coherent argument.


in the US it is about money. Why do we keep seeing reports come out from all over the US of people who did not die of coronavirus but their death certificates are listed as COVID-19? Because the hospital receives money. There is no shortage of details available on the internet for anyone to find, this is not new.


So some people who are incorrectly profiting from a pandemic means that the entire thing is a hoax.

Brilliant.


who are you claiming is saying this is a hoax? Certainly not me. But again, you can find everything regarding false numbers online. again, its not new news.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3608
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:41 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Its hypocritical for airlines to pass out drinks and snacks, invite you to eat them but then "require" masks.

Which is it? Virus spreads while you are munching on snacks, producing excess saliva that gets projected into the air while smacking with your mouth open and chatting with your travel companion, or NOT?



LMAO!!! I love it and it is the truth.

In all seriousness I think the DOT made the right call on this issue. The DOT cannot mandate mask be worn on aircraft when not a single federal (government) health agency has order such a mandate.
 
User avatar
smithbs
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:47 pm

gonnagetbumpy wrote:
I also have a right to not get sick because you chose not to wear a mask.


That is not true. I can't think of any case where someone could hold someone else responsible because an act of nature occurred. If so, then certain social diseases would be common court cases because it would be too easy to make the case to a judge and jury.

FriscoHeavy's point and the rebuttals come to one important junction: at what point can someone force someone else to do something because it is in the first person's personal interest? History tells us to regard that question with all due seriousness.

In any case, if the airline makes masks mandatory then it sort of doesn't matter what the DOT mandates. I live in an area where masks are not mandatory, but all the big box stores require them. In the end, the result is about the same.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1898
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:51 pm

Maybe airlines will just have to go to the old model; smoking vs. no smoking sections. Let the branch covidians have their own seats, with their own prices/in flight food and beverage services, and let the rest of the world sit separately from them.
 
lhrnue
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:55 pm

Just imagen, it's October 2020 and people still compare Covid19 with the common flu. Mind boggling.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 843
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:58 pm

Rookie87 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Its hypocritical for airlines to pass out drinks and snacks, invite you to eat them but then "require" masks.

Which is it? Virus spreads while you are munching on snacks, producing excess saliva that gets projected into the air while smacking with your mouth open and chatting with your travel companion, or NOT?


Think about what you just wrote...how hard and in what way would you chewing spew out spit droplets the way you just described....how?? I pictured me eating with my mouth wide open and nah...seriously explain this to us, I'm curious.


Multiple ways, but the most obvious:

1. you are eating and chatting with your seat mates or the FA while you are eating. You are hungry or greedy and call out to the FA as they pass by wanting more snacks when you notice your bag of chips is almost gone.

2. you are fat or have a snuffed up nose (covid....) or some other reason makes you need to breath out of your mouth. So you are mouth breathing while munching on your snacks.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10869
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:08 pm

I hear a lot of folk talking about the people in the row in front of you or the row behind.

When I am sitting, I can't see the people in the row behind, and apart from the rare instance when they got to the toilet, I can hardly see the people on the row in front.

The degree of separation compared to the people sitting next to me is genuine and substancial.

I flew from the UK to Malta and back last week all masked up.

Frankly, after a while you hardly notice tt.

I really fail to see why so many want to make an issue of it.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1852
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:12 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I hear a lot of folk talking about the people in the row in front of you or the row behind.

When I am sitting, I can't see the people in the row behind, and apart from the rare instance when they got to the toilet, I can hardly see the people on the row in front.

The degree of separation compared to the people sitting next to me is genuine and substancial.

I flew from the UK to Malta and back last week all masked up.

Frankly, after a while you hardly notice tt.

I really fail to see why so many want to make an issue of it.


You may not be able to see them, but there is no material difference in the virus particles floating around between the empty seat next to you and the person ahead, behind and 2 seats over from you. There is no reduced risk. It's all a show to make you 'feel' safe. If an airline can get away with it financially, great for them, continue the trend. But you aren't any safer because of it, when you just walked neck to neck boarding the plane and so forth.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15305
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:22 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Its hypocritical for airlines to pass out drinks and snacks, invite you to eat them but then "require" masks.

Which is it? Virus spreads while you are munching on snacks, producing excess saliva that gets projected into the air while smacking with your mouth open and chatting with your travel companion, or NOT?


Think about what you just wrote...how hard and in what way would you chewing spew out spit droplets the way you just described....how?? I pictured me eating with my mouth wide open and nah...seriously explain this to us, I'm curious.


Multiple ways, but the most obvious:

1. you are eating and chatting with your seat mates or the FA while you are eating. You are hungry or greedy and call out to the FA as they pass by wanting more snacks when you notice your bag of chips is almost gone.

2. you are fat or have a snuffed up nose (covid....) or some other reason makes you need to breath out of your mouth. So you are mouth breathing while munching on your snacks.


I'm not too sure it's hypocritical, actually. The odds are that there's a lot more airborne spread on the ground (packs off) than in the air (packs running enough to sustain life). So even a rule that masks are required on the ground and while the seat belt sign is on in flight but not in cruise might be defensible scientifically.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1277
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:31 pm

LOT767301ER wrote:
Not really, weak must die for the strong to live. This is called nature. In this case the weak are old and have many co-morbidities.


I don’t think you understand what a co-morbidity is. It’s a “co” because it jointly impacts morbidity with Covid. Many of these people are dying multiple decades than they would have otherwise. An airplane is an obvious place where risk can be reduced for all with consistent mask usage.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 1066
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:37 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
They can pass out water in a plastic cup, they stewards and stewardesses have been handling, but won't hand you a coke, beer, food or any other beverage.

Try Lufthansa! ;)

They handed me a glass bottle of Warsteiner when I asked for a beer last week! And they had many more drinks available.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1852
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:47 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
They can pass out water in a plastic cup, they stewards and stewardesses have been handling, but won't hand you a coke, beer, food or any other beverage.

Try Lufthansa! ;)

They handed me a glass bottle of Warsteiner when I asked for a beer last week! And they had many more drinks available.



Haha!
 
D L X
Posts: 12726
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:03 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.


This is a position that is indefensible.

It is the exact same as requiring

  • seat belts
  • sobriety while driving
  • shirts and shoes in stores

Your rights are not at issue. Your liberty is not at issue. Your freedom is not at issue. These are all weak excuses used to not care about the safety of others, which you imperil when you do not wear a mask.

I have now said it "nicely" so you will not have an excuse to ask for the post to be deleted. But let us all be on the same page: nice words while doing awful deeds do not make one's deeds nice.
 
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janders
Moderator
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Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:06 pm

As this discussion has veered off from its original aviation focus into a broader health/political opinion discussion, its been moved to Nov-Av.
 
N867DA
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:14 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
It is absolutely bizarre to consider masks as some kind of authoritarian power play. You can find much more egregious violations of peoples' rights, and much more consequential rearrangements in political power, in minutes, or seconds, if you care to look.


And far more important things that have impact. But yes, its so clear .. first masks then dictatorship :roll:

I'm fine with the DOT not mandating masks. This is not a DOT issue. It is a public health issue and should be handled by the appropriate departments. And finally, the US airlines are private companies and it is fascinating that those yelling for freedom somehow have an issue with the company being free to set their own rules.


I never said I had an issue with a private company setting their rules. I believe private enterprises can do as such. I haven't seen such shouting on anywhere near a regular basis.



The appropriate thing to do is ask the airline to enforce their rules on people like this, for the sake of yourself and everyone else in planes, airports, and other public spaces. Get them to stay home; you never know who you’re helping!

The DOT has no business mandating masks when even some health agencies offer more leeway. But the DOT should empower air carriers with explicit permission to discriminate against people who choose not to, or feign compliance.
 
dannynoble
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:52 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:31 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
TMccrury wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
I'm 'Anti-Mask' (meaning I don't wear one). I have no issue if you choose to wear one. Individual freedom and liberty are real things. You give the government or anyone in power an inch and they will take a mile (there is no end to this mask crap and that's part of the problem). If I knew it was for 2-3 weeks and that's that, then I'd do it, but I'm going going to wear it up for an indefinite and unending period of time.

By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.

While I believe in science, I also do not believe in living in fear given for the foreseeable future. 99.9% of those infected, recover. 40% or so of those who have died in the USA were in nursing homes. The science does not show that the average person, up to about age 70 is at significant risk of death (I'm in insurance and have seen the death claims). Everyone just needs to relax. Contagious? Absolutely. A death sentence? Not for 99.9+ % of people.

We just held a 15-20 person party at our house over the weekend. It was great. No masks, actually shook hands like people should do when the arrive and leave, etc. We choose to live a normal life, not be freaked out because the media or others convince you that you are about to die for Coronavirus, when it simply isn't true.

Again, if you want to wear a mask, shield, a full alien suit, go for it. I have no issue with you doing what you feel you need to do, but you do you and I'll do me. I don't make fun of you (pro-maskers) so the personal attacks on those who don't choose to wear one and realize how extremely small the risks are shouldn't be looked down upon or made fun of either.



I'm with you on this one. It is my opinion if we are going to do mandate mask for Covid-19 we should mandate them for the Flu. The same rationale applies. Both are transmitted pretty much the same way. Sadly, Covid-19 has become a politicized and folks are spreading a lot of fear about it. Here is another thought, the Constitution does not cease to exist just because of a Pandemic. It is still enforce regardless. As someone else said, If you if you give the Government an inch, they take a mile and there is no end to it.

You do realize that if Airlines still enforce the mask wearing policy you are going to have to comply right? Unless you plan on to sue the airlines. Sure the government is not overreaching here but business can do whatever they want.


i am anti mask for the same reason i think it is an over reaction (plus it fogs up my glasses). i am also not suing the airlines that is just as big of an over reaction. the airlines have the right to set whatever rules they feel they need to do to keep the people safe. i support that it is their house, their rules. i just choose not to fly until they drop the mask requirement. like Costco they put up a mask policy. i did not cancel my membership i just adjusted to the rules the best i could. my girlfriend has no issues with masks so she shops and i stay at home. win/win. you can be damn sure the minute they drop the mask requirements Amanda and i will be booking flights that day. even before Covid i was always avoiding crowds cause i am a huge germ-aphobe. so i have always social distanced my whole life the best i can. to many entitled people around in 2020 that is the biggest problem of all.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2914
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Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:35 pm

The irony of calling others entitled while being an anti-masker
 
texl1649
Posts: 1898
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:45 pm

stl07 wrote:
The irony of calling others entitled while being an anti-masker


The irony of being a branch covidian while slandering a person opposed to masks based on science/common sense on a thread where opposition to the mob led to deletion/exile to the non-Aviation category.

I've about given up on this forum multiple times, and the mask insanity in the midst of global layoffs/depression for airlines/employees is about depressing enough to do it. Have fun, moderators.
 
heavy747
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:04 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:46 pm

MASKS make sense. Not wearing one doesn't. Theres only 1 reason why the USA is in the state its in today...
 
Newark727
Posts: 2553
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:52 pm

texl1649 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
The irony of calling others entitled while being an anti-masker


The irony of being a branch covidian while slandering a person opposed to masks based on science/common sense on a thread where opposition to the mob led to deletion/exile to the non-Aviation category.

I've about given up on this forum multiple times, and the mask insanity in the midst of global layoffs/depression for airlines/employees is about depressing enough to do it. Have fun, moderators.


I don't think you get to make any points about "slander" while calling people "branch covidians." It's also the masks that are allowing people to continue working, not getting them laid off.
 
winginit
Posts: 3073
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:58 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
So again, I respect your view, but I'm not going to live my life that way. As I've previously mentioned, I believe others have a right to where a hazmat suit or anything in between if it makes them 'feel' safer. That's their choice and I respect it as you aren't bothering me by doing so. I just ask that same courtesy from the mask believers, that's all.

Sincerely,


To be clear though, you very much will live your life that way (as someone who wears a mask) if required to do so by a private enterprise in order to take part in their service yes? Your opinion on masks is entirely irrelevant if airlines or grocery stores or what have you, as they've done in most places even around the world, require masks to be worn by passengers and patrons.

It's no different than no shirt no shoes no service.
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1499
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:46 pm

I can't help but think that those refusing to wear masks are the modern day equivalent of those in the 30's who would have said 'Mr. Churchill, I will not have my freedom and liberty stepped upon by being forced to turn off my lights at night!'
 
Newark727
Posts: 2553
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:56 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
I can't help but think that those refusing to wear masks are the modern day equivalent of those in the 30's who would have said 'Mr. Churchill, I will not have my freedom and liberty stepped upon by being forced to turn off my lights at night!'


Very charitable of you to assume they'd be on Churchill's side in the first place! :duck:
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16024
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:54 pm

texl1649 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
The irony of calling others entitled while being an anti-masker


The irony of being a branch covidian while slandering a person opposed to masks based on science/common sense on a thread where opposition to the mob led to deletion/exile to the non-Aviation category.

I've about given up on this forum multiple times, and the mask insanity in the midst of global layoffs/depression for airlines/employees is about depressing enough to do it. Have fun, moderators.


Masks have proven incredibly effective in transportation settings in Korea, Japan, Italy, Australia etc. Why do you want to be less successful than them?
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:21 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That idea may have an interesting run through the courts. Businesses can't make ANY rule they want: discrimination based on gender, race, and religion is outlawed in the U.S., for example. Somebody (funded by, oh, The Heritage Foundation, or some analogue) could make the case that a mask rule is arbitrary. The DOT declined to promulgate a mask rule, many states declined mask rules, there was no Federal mask rule...

From the other side, if the petitioner doesn't like the DOT's refusal he could sue the DOT to compel it to formulate a mask rule and have the carriers enforce it.

Huh? What would the basis for a lawsuit be? Even if there was a real argument that mask rules are arbitrary, there is no law against business creating arbitrary rules.


The FTC can sue to prohibit unfair practices, defined as an unfair act or
practice as one that “causes or is likely to cause substantial injury to consumers which is not
reasonably avoidable by consumers themselves and not outweighed by countervailing benefits to
consumers and to competition.”

The absence of Federal order (by the CDC, DOT...) is a good argument that there are not adequate countervailing benefits.

There are also unconscionable contracts - these can't be enforced. Carrier contracts of carriage aren't negotiated with passengers. Plenty of travelers can argue that they are in a city only served by carrier XX and have no real no choice but to fly XX or not at all.

It would be pretty tough to argue that wearing a mask on an airplane while not eating and drinking causes or is likely to cause substantial injury. That is really stretching it. If a person with a very rare condition that could be injured by a mask sues, the obvious remedy is for the courts to force a very narrow exemption. Courts will almost always remedy a situation with the solution that least restricts a bussiasbes right to make decisions about their own businesses.

The opposite argument is more fesiable. If an airline recinds their mask requirement it would be much easier to prove the likelihood of substantial harm, especially on a flight between two jurisdictions that require masks.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5917
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:21 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
By the same token, I won't be jumping over any counter to attack anyone. When I fly now, I just hold a cup in my hand and problem solved (no mask). No ruckus, no fuss. I just mind my business (like many of you should be doing). Quit being so worried about what everyone else is or is not doing.


I'm sorry, but that's not ok.

That you choose to not believe in masks is one thing. But that you intentionally choose to not follow the rules is another.

You are the kind of person to only do as is required if it suits you, and then disobey the rules when it doesn't.
Even without considering that this rule is there to protect others, that makes you an entitled and selfish individual.

If you don't want to wear a mask, fine. But then don't frequent the places that require you to wear one. It's that easy.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:29 am

texl1649 wrote:
Maybe airlines will just have to go to the old model; smoking vs. no smoking sections. Let the branch covidians have their own seats, with their own prices/in flight food and beverage services, and let the rest of the world sit separately from them.


without crewing emergency exits?

smithbs wrote:
gonnagetbumpy wrote:
I also have a right to not get sick because you chose not to wear a mask.


That is not true. I can't think of any case where someone could hold someone else responsible because an act of nature occurred.


Situations like this haven´t occurred yet, and hence didn´t have their day in court yet, but the equivalent, smoking, has.

best regards
Thomas
 
kimimm19
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:51 am

Newark727 wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
The emotionalism in your post is just as telling as the over sanitised world we live in today.

People die, especially the unhealthy. You can't stop nature.


Easy to say, when you're not the one on the ventilator...


Yeah, it is. Also when you know the facts and can see through the hysteria and things that are touted as science.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:00 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
The emotionalism in your post is just as telling as the over sanitised world we live in today.

People die, especially the unhealthy. You can't stop nature.


Easy to say, when you're not the one on the ventilator...


Yeah, it is. Also when you know the facts and can see through the hysteria and things that are touted as science.


Because you know better than the people emerging in fields that make professional sports seem like it lacks competition?

If you know and act based on facts, that is science. There are no alternative facts, not is there alternative science.

But since you claim to have all the fact: How exactly does the Corona Virus spread and how can we stop the spread? Should be child-splay to eradicate the virus, or any other infectious disease for that matter, with someone that knows the facts and can see through the histeria......

best regards
Thomas
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:11 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
People die, especially the unhealthy. You can't stop nature.


Risky behavior moves one from healthy category to unhealthy, and as you said nature takes its course.

You cannot control nature, but you can control your own behavior.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
People die, especially the unhealthy. You can't stop nature.


Risky behavior moves one from healthy category to unhealthy, and as you said nature takes its course.

You cannot control nature, but you can control your own behavior.


the problem with infectious disease however is that your own behavior has only limited effects on your own health ....

best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
smithbs
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:24 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Maybe airlines will just have to go to the old model; smoking vs. no smoking sections. Let the branch covidians have their own seats, with their own prices/in flight food and beverage services, and let the rest of the world sit separately from them.


without crewing emergency exits?

smithbs wrote:
gonnagetbumpy wrote:
I also have a right to not get sick because you chose not to wear a mask.


That is not true. I can't think of any case where someone could hold someone else responsible because an act of nature occurred.


Situations like this haven´t occurred yet, and hence didn´t have their day in court yet, but the equivalent, smoking, has.

best regards
Thomas


The legal cases with smoking were quite different. I'm not aware of any case where an individual smoker was sued for damaging another person due to their smoke. The lawsuits focused mostly on cigarette manufacturers. In any case, second-hand smoke is not a viral disease. I think some cases have probed culpability for more serious cases like HIV/AIDS, but not with a lot of success. It simply comes down to not really knowing the facts - who caught what first and who passed it on, regarding something that exists everywhere but cannot be seen - has a hard time meeting the high bar of the court.
 
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northstardc4m
Posts: 3461
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:41 pm

Would someone from the US please explain to me what "freedom" that is guaranteed is being denied by asking people to wear a mask for the protection of others while in public where you cannot be 6'+ away from others?

I can't find a one... You can still speak, practice religion, bear arms, assemble, associate... No one is depriving you of freedom of the press or the right to due process... So what freedom is it? What constitutionally guaranteed freedom is being impinged by wearing a mask?

Also... "nature" is something mankind changed long ago. The attitude of people proclaiming that COVID will just kill those that are somehow unworthy of life is repugnant to modern society. You are condemning every transplant recipient, most people on chemo therapy, people with Asthma, COPD, emphysema... and so many more to death because you won't wear a piece of cloth over your mouth when needed??? Are you people SERIOUS?
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8710
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: DOT States Masks are not Mandatory

Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:52 pm

If there are any flight attendants in this forum, I'll make it easy for you.

You know how on your safety briefing, there's a part that says something along the lines of:

Federal regulations require all passengers to comply with lighted and posted placards and crew member instructions...


Emphasize this last part over and over, especially if it's airline policy.

Problem solved.

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