Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Topic Author
Posts: 3879
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:41 pm

An absolute nightmare scenario is unfolding right now, and I'm honestly appalled that in the US we are legitimately seeing the GOP and the president actively seek to toss out the election results, install their own set of electors, and use the electoral college to keep the president in power regardless of what the people say. All this under the faux guise of "protecting a free and fair election."

https://www.salon.com/2020/10/06/trump- ... ts-report/

It's beyond me how anyone still supports this guy and his enablers. This is the kind of crap America used to stand against. This is the stuff that we used to consider anti-democracy, and would send election monitors into other countries to prevent. But it's happening here. This isn't a "democratic coup", it's a Republican one. I think it's time the electoral college was abolished for good. For centuries we've relied on good faith and norms to keep the loopholes in our constitution from resulting in these kind of power grabs...but Trump has thrown every norm out the window and exploited every loophole for his own gain. It's time for reform.

This especially highlights why its even more important that the Supreme Court not have a 6-3 majority, as any legal challenges to this can just be dismissed by a court so lopsided towards Trump.

Do you find this acceptable? Can you honestly justify this?
 
winginit
Posts: 3069
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:52 pm

Eh. I'm a big ole lefty and I'm not at all worried about this. For starters, we've reached a point where barring a monumental shift in the election landscape, the results very well may be evident on election night, and possibly early on. I may well eat these words, but the polls released today are truly shocking for the Trump campaign especially among the Senior (65+) voting demographic. I genuinely believe that we're approaching a point where both Pennsylvania and even possibly Florida are called relatively early for Biden and at that point - it's all over.

Even if Florida continues to be a perpetual election problem child, you tick off Michigan and Wisconsin and again - it's all over.

Again, I will be the first to hold my hand up and admit I was wrong come election night if a contested election seems a likely outcome, but the reported hypothetical in this article appear to be the whims of a campaign who knows they're toast.

Donald Trump is done.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13392
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:59 pm

How is this any different to the last election where the majority of Americans said one thing and the results didn’t reflect this?
 
winginit
Posts: 3069
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
How is this any different to the last election where the majority of Americans said one thing and the results didn’t reflect this?


Because this election has 2016 as a data and pivot point. What's gone unreported in many cases is how dramatically polling methodologies have been changed and refined as a direct consequence of 2016. The polling industry is, after all, in many cases a profit-driven business, so their accuracy is directly tied to their finances and credibility. We saw this materialize in many ways in the 2018 midterms, and while Presidential elections are of course different, I suspect we'll see a more effective polling product prove itself come next month.

Again, I could be wrong, and I'll admit as much if so. In the words of hyper-hypocrite Lindsey Graham, 'use my words against me'.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8652
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
How is this any different to the last election where the majority of Americans said one thing and the results didn’t reflect this?

The problem stems with what the public in a particular state wants. A narrow majority in MI in 2016 enabled MI's 16 electors to go to Trump under a winner take all system. What's being proposed here is that regardless of what the vote outcome is in the state, if it's GOP controlled, they'll assign the electors to the GOP candidate (using FL as an example, if Biden wins the popular vote he SHOULD get FL's 29 votes, but the Trump campaign wants the state to disregard that and seat the GOP slate of electors instead).

The thing is that the Constitution DOES allow this to happen. States allocate electors as they see fit (they have a provision). There is nothing stopping a state from passing a law quickly to say that the legislature will appoint this year's electors, and send the GOP slate, no matter how big Biden's victory was, rendering the November vote meaningless. It's completely undemocratic (why vote if the legislature can override it for their purposes?), but constitutionally legal. And initially this WAS how electors were chosen.

Does this mean that ALL states will follow through with this? Not likely. The official tally, read in Congress, is the one that bears the Governor's signature, not a legislature seal. So states like NC, PA, WI, and MI may have GOP majorities in their legislatures but have Democratic governors; it's their seals that certify the election results. Other GOP governors may be more pragmatic. AZ's Ducey, MD's Hogan, MA's Baker, NH's Sununu, and VT's Scott won't go along and they will certify the winner in their state which, excepting for AZ which is tossup, will likely be Democrats.

States like FL, TX, OH, and IA, however, must be monitored. Besides TX, the other 3 are true swing states but with GOP majorities. FL's DeSantis is looney enough to go along with the plan. IA's Reynolds and OH's DeWine seem a bit more pragmatic and may instead certify the winner of the popular vote, though if a law is passed quickly and not vetoed (or vetoed and overridden) then the governors are powerless.

In a similar twist, it could be possible for three states to not send electors at all: KS, KY, and LA. All three are under a Democrat governor; if the governor refuses to certify the election results (a tit for tat), that's 22 EC votes that would likely not be counted. Of course, a law could be passed and enacted that gives the legislature the ability to send the electors without governor input, but because the party benefiting is likely the one that would have carried all these votes, nothing of consequence will happen (even those who held their nose while voting for Trump will likely be pleased that their legislature is pushing the vote through both there and everywhere).

In summary: Joe Biden may win the popular vote nationwide, but if this plan comes to fruition, even in states where he won the popular vote and is entitled to the electors of that state, he may be denied all of them.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
cpd
Posts: 6715
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:36 pm

Aloha717200 wrote:
An absolute nightmare scenario is unfolding right now, and I'm honestly appalled that in the US we are legitimately seeing the GOP and the president actively seek to toss out the election results, install their own set of electors, and use the electoral college to keep the president in power regardless of what the people say. All this under the faux guise of "protecting a free and fair election."

https://www.salon.com/2020/10/06/trump- ... ts-report/

It's beyond me how anyone still supports this guy and his enablers. This is the kind of crap America used to stand against. This is the stuff that we used to consider anti-democracy, and would send election monitors into other countries to prevent. But it's happening here. This isn't a "democratic coup", it's a Republican one. I think it's time the electoral college was abolished for good. For centuries we've relied on good faith and norms to keep the loopholes in our constitution from resulting in these kind of power grabs...but Trump has thrown every norm out the window and exploited every loophole for his own gain. It's time for reform.

This especially highlights why its even more important that the Supreme Court not have a 6-3 majority, as any legal challenges to this can just be dismissed by a court so lopsided towards Trump.

Do you find this acceptable? Can you honestly justify this?


If it happens, hit the leadership and other major functions of the USA with sanctions. Simple as that.

Same standards as the USA would apply to other countries with highly dubious election results.

Ultimately the laws should be refined and the voting process probably needs to come into line with how things work my in country (it works without controversy).
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23492
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:47 pm

MAGA has called this upcoming election fraudulent for over a year. They are doing everything in their power to cling to power. WHEN Biden hits 272, the lawsuits will begin. All in an attempt to cling to power. Nothing more. WHEN Biden hits 272, there will be riots from the violent right wing because "the election is fraudulent because our leader said so".

Republicans do not care about democracy. Republicans do not care about the will of the people. Republicans only care about protecting their king.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Topic Author
Posts: 3879
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:08 pm

cpd wrote:
Aloha717200 wrote:
An absolute nightmare scenario is unfolding right now, and I'm honestly appalled that in the US we are legitimately seeing the GOP and the president actively seek to toss out the election results, install their own set of electors, and use the electoral college to keep the president in power regardless of what the people say. All this under the faux guise of "protecting a free and fair election."

https://www.salon.com/2020/10/06/trump- ... ts-report/

It's beyond me how anyone still supports this guy and his enablers. This is the kind of crap America used to stand against. This is the stuff that we used to consider anti-democracy, and would send election monitors into other countries to prevent. But it's happening here. This isn't a "democratic coup", it's a Republican one. I think it's time the electoral college was abolished for good. For centuries we've relied on good faith and norms to keep the loopholes in our constitution from resulting in these kind of power grabs...but Trump has thrown every norm out the window and exploited every loophole for his own gain. It's time for reform.

This especially highlights why its even more important that the Supreme Court not have a 6-3 majority, as any legal challenges to this can just be dismissed by a court so lopsided towards Trump.

Do you find this acceptable? Can you honestly justify this?


If it happens, hit the leadership and other major functions of the USA with sanctions. Simple as that.

Same standards as the USA would apply to other countries with highly dubious election results.

Ultimately the laws should be refined and the voting process probably needs to come into line with how things work my in country (it works without controversy).



I have wondered this myself...is there any country brave enough to actually sanction the US?

I can't believe I have to ask this, as an American. But our president is dictator in the making.
 
M564038
Posts: 593
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:36 pm

It would be unthinkable not long go, but yes, there will be sanctions, but that might be the least of the worries. The union might be unsaveable if this continues into a full on dictatorship based on clinging to power through voter fraud, as very well might happen. The worlds Admiration and awe has long since evolved into pity and irritation. The USA over the last few years has become a bleak wreck. A dystopia. It has fallen over the edge, and it is not certain it is possible to save it.


Aloha717200 wrote:
cpd wrote:
Aloha717200 wrote:
An absolute nightmare scenario is unfolding right now, and I'm honestly appalled that in the US we are legitimately seeing the GOP and the president actively seek to toss out the election results, install their own set of electors, and use the electoral college to keep the president in power regardless of what the people say. All this under the faux guise of "protecting a free and fair election."

https://www.salon.com/2020/10/06/trump- ... ts-report/

It's beyond me how anyone still supports this guy and his enablers. This is the kind of crap America used to stand against. This is the stuff that we used to consider anti-democracy, and would send election monitors into other countries to prevent. But it's happening here. This isn't a "democratic coup", it's a Republican one. I think it's time the electoral college was abolished for good. For centuries we've relied on good faith and norms to keep the loopholes in our constitution from resulting in these kind of power grabs...but Trump has thrown every norm out the window and exploited every loophole for his own gain. It's time for reform.

This especially highlights why its even more important that the Supreme Court not have a 6-3 majority, as any legal challenges to this can just be dismissed by a court so lopsided towards Trump.

Do you find this acceptable? Can you honestly justify this?


If it happens, hit the leadership and other major functions of the USA with sanctions. Simple as that.

Same standards as the USA would apply to other countries with highly dubious election results.

Ultimately the laws should be refined and the voting process probably needs to come into line with how things work my in country (it works without controversy).



I have wondered this myself...is there any country brave enough to actually sanction the US?

I can't believe I have to ask this, as an American. But our president is dictator in the making.
 
LH658
Posts: 1279
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:58 pm

If Trump wasn't in power most of these Republicans would have lost. Trump doubts democracy even when he's charge. It's all about the quick stock market profit, divide Americans especially his base so they can't agree with democrats on single basic issue like health and safety. Just go to DC most of these politicians are buddies as much as they talk smack about each other, to the poor citizen just being a product of what they're selling. If he wins 2020 he wouldn't call the election fraudulent.

If he got paid million dollars tomorrow to say Iran is better than America he would do it in heart beat, he behaves as if he's TV star. He was no morals, ethics, or leadership. I am person who look at things on policy, but when someone has lack of leadership it's a no go for me.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4136
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:02 pm

Aloha717200 wrote:
[I have wondered this myself...is there any country brave enough to actually sanction the US?

I could see Iran, Cuba or Venezuela making bold statements regarding sanctions, but that would be mostly for domestic consumption.

That said, while the world might not sanction the USA, the Trump business empire probably would get sanctioned. And even if there are no official sanctions, the general populace would probably avoid them. Except perhaps for our own far-right folks.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
Lord Flashheart, 1989
 
Kent350787
Posts: 1836
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:02 pm

Interesting opinion piece today by a former Australian foreign minister arguing the case that the US is funadamentally a republic, but not designed to be a democracy, and that this is at the core of the current crisis.

Sorry if paywalled https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-amer ... 5629q.html
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/Q100/200/E195/733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/320/321/332/333/345/359
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5311
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:10 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
How is this any different to the last election where the majority of Americans said one thing and the results didn’t reflect this?

The problem stems with what the public in a particular state wants. A narrow majority in MI in 2016 enabled MI's 16 electors to go to Trump under a winner take all system. What's being proposed here is that regardless of what the vote outcome is in the state, if it's GOP controlled, they'll assign the electors to the GOP candidate (using FL as an example, if Biden wins the popular vote he SHOULD get FL's 29 votes, but the Trump campaign wants the state to disregard that and seat the GOP slate of electors instead).

The thing is that the Constitution DOES allow this to happen. States allocate electors as they see fit (they have a provision). There is nothing stopping a state from passing a law quickly to say that the legislature will appoint this year's electors, and send the GOP slate, no matter how big Biden's victory was, rendering the November vote meaningless. It's completely undemocratic (why vote if the legislature can override it for their purposes?), but constitutionally legal. And initially this WAS how electors were chosen.

Does this mean that ALL states will follow through with this? Not likely. The official tally, read in Congress, is the one that bears the Governor's signature, not a legislature seal. So states like NC, PA, WI, and MI may have GOP majorities in their legislatures but have Democratic governors; it's their seals that certify the election results. Other GOP governors may be more pragmatic. AZ's Ducey, MD's Hogan, MA's Baker, NH's Sununu, and VT's Scott won't go along and they will certify the winner in their state which, excepting for AZ which is tossup, will likely be Democrats.

States like FL, TX, OH, and IA, however, must be monitored. Besides TX, the other 3 are true swing states but with GOP majorities. FL's DeSantis is looney enough to go along with the plan. IA's Reynolds and OH's DeWine seem a bit more pragmatic and may instead certify the winner of the popular vote, though if a law is passed quickly and not vetoed (or vetoed and overridden) then the governors are powerless.

In a similar twist, it could be possible for three states to not send electors at all: KS, KY, and LA. All three are under a Democrat governor; if the governor refuses to certify the election results (a tit for tat), that's 22 EC votes that would likely not be counted. Of course, a law could be passed and enacted that gives the legislature the ability to send the electors without governor input, but because the party benefiting is likely the one that would have carried all these votes, nothing of consequence will happen (even those who held their nose while voting for Trump will likely be pleased that their legislature is pushing the vote through both there and everywhere).

In summary: Joe Biden may win the popular vote nationwide, but if this plan comes to fruition, even in states where he won the popular vote and is entitled to the electors of that state, he may be denied all of them.

according to my understanding, if this happen the congress cab refuse to certify the result and decide who should be the president. But the process only allow one vote from all congressor of each sate according to my understanding
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
A placeholder line
You are now at your youngest moment in your remaining life.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14116
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:58 pm

Surely someone thinking about this plan is also looking at the risk/reward of doing this ? What's losing an election compared to losing your country ?

Are all these states rich enough to cope without California/NY money ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2725
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:28 am

A small part of me wants to go to early voting and then take a nice vacation in Mexico during election week and let the drama unfold before returning back. When are they gonna open that damn border?
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5311
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:36 am

Aloha717200 wrote:
The interesting thing to me is that Democrats have consistently sought to expand voting rights, while Republicans have consistently sought to limit them. I find it interesting that the GOP was able to successfully convince people that more people voting equals election theft. What they really mean to say is that they only want certain people voting in order to pad their grip on power, even as demographics in the US continue to shift multiracially and multiculturally. They seem to do whatever it takes to uphold their vision of America as a god-fearing, white-utopia Christian nation.

I wonder if France wants their statue back.

I guess that's based on differences in view of what United States' value should be? Note that the word "should" mean it reflect view not reality
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
A placeholder line
You are now at your youngest moment in your remaining life.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1497
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:01 am

Aesma wrote:
Surely someone thinking about this plan is also looking at the risk/reward of doing this ? What's losing an election compared to losing your country ?

Are all these states rich enough to cope without California/NY money ?


The issue here lies in the fact that many of these states are led to believe that their hard-earned money goes to socialism for them big city slickers (who apparently are either "coastal elites" or welfare queen minorities)

This is of course while many of those communities exist purely due to farms. And many of those farms only exist because the government pays billions in subsidies.

This somewhat came to a head when McConnell didn't want to support a "blue bailout" back when COVID was mostly impacting blue states. I think it was Cuomo pointed out that New York contributes some dozens of billions more than Kentucky. And now when they were looking for a little help in return...nothing.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3353
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:51 am

I have a hard time seeing this as really viable or realistic. What incentive does a hypothetical GOP state legislature have to vote against their constituents' will in a state that goes for Biden? There really isn't a whole lot of pressure Trump could exert on them in such a scenario...overrule your own voters or else. Or else what? If that's the "art of the deal" it's a piss poor one: overrule your constituents and have to face off with them, or else I lose and go away. It's not exactly a tempting value proposition.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5311
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:17 am

flyguy89 wrote:
I have a hard time seeing this as really viable or realistic. What incentive does a hypothetical GOP state legislature have to vote against their constituents' will in a state that goes for Biden? There really isn't a whole lot of pressure Trump could exert on them in such a scenario...overrule your own voters or else. Or else what? If that's the "art of the deal" it's a piss poor one: overrule your constituents and have to face off with them, or else I lose and go away. It's not exactly a tempting value proposition.

Gerrymandering and they know their constituency will reelect them even if less than half of their state desire so
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
A placeholder line
You are now at your youngest moment in your remaining life.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3353
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:22 am

c933103 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I have a hard time seeing this as really viable or realistic. What incentive does a hypothetical GOP state legislature have to vote against their constituents' will in a state that goes for Biden? There really isn't a whole lot of pressure Trump could exert on them in such a scenario...overrule your own voters or else. Or else what? If that's the "art of the deal" it's a piss poor one: overrule your constituents and have to face off with them, or else I lose and go away. It's not exactly a tempting value proposition.

Gerrymandering and they know their constituency will reelect them even if less than half of their state desire so

We're talking about swing states however...electorates who sway readily between Democrat and Republican. Gerrymandering, to the extent it exists on the state level, can only get you so far.
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 14195
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:25 am

Where is Newt Gingrich when you need him? We thought he was a radical Republican, now he looks like a Boy Scout compared with these bums.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8652
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:30 am

c933103 wrote:
according to my understanding, if this happen the congress cab refuse to certify the result and decide who should be the president. But the process only allow one vote from all congressor of each sate according to my understanding

The question is whether the Joint Session will allow the protest to stand. Let's assume that FL employs the tactic. If both a Senator and Rep object, each chamber considers the issue separately, but both chambers have to agree on whether to discard or count the votes. If the Senate remains in GOP hands, it wouldn't be farfetched to think the Senate would reject the objection (thereby allowing the votes to be counted).

And even when those votes are discarded, there's the question of what happens to the threshold. If FL's 29 votes are discarded, does a person still need 270 to be elected or does the amount decrease because now it's 538-29 (which would be 509, divided by 2 which gives 255 as the new majority)? The Constitution is not clear on what happens to the threshold when a state's electors are not counted.

flyguy89 wrote:
I have a hard time seeing this as really viable or realistic. What incentive does a hypothetical GOP state legislature have to vote against their constituents' will in a state that goes for Biden?

I actually don't have a hard time, for two reasons:
1. People get amnesia fairly quickly. You'd think that after the 2013 government shutdown (for example), Democrats would have had an edge in Congressional elections the following year, yet they got blown out. So many people from these swing states will likely pout, take out their anger through marches, and threaten recalls or a massive effort at the next election cycle...meanwhile, the damage will have been done; you can't recall the EC votes once certified and entered in the official tally. See above on what COULD happen.

2. Partisanship and gerrymandering. If Republicans are in safe R districts, only a primary will kick them out. They're pretty much insulated from a wipe-out as it is. Democrats in D districts can't do a thing about it. Sure, in terms of the popular vote they (Dems and Inds) represent a majority, but gerrymandered districts means disproportionate representation from GOP areas who will only be too happy knowing that the people they sent will force the state to vote as the minority wishes. A state's supreme court COULD get involved, but that's gonna be a big mess (and it's likely that they'll be political appointees who will look the other way).

So to answer your question: the incentive is to retain power through all means, especially if the legislature is forecasted to remain unchanged, knowing that the gamble could pay off (the next local house/senate election won't be until 2022 at the earliest...plenty of time to distract people and ensure a lasting legacy through gerrymandered districts at all levels and laws to restrict voting rights). I can see this power grab from a state where the GOP doesn't have enough votes to override a veto (so if NC legislators pass a law to appoint the electors rather than by popular vote, if Cooper vetoes it, they likely won't muster the votes in time so the law remains). In OH, however, the GOP holds a supermajority as it requires only 3/5 to override a veto...wouldn't be surprised to see OH Rs passing a law and overriding DeWine's veto to allow them to appoint the electors.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14446
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:16 am

Aesma wrote:
Surely someone thinking about this plan is also looking at the risk/reward of doing this ? What's losing an election compared to losing your country ?


given that a good chunk of Republicans and their voters want the country to go away and be replaced by an Iran style theocracy with only a different version of the same book as constitution they probably don´t care. They much rather have realized this is their last chance to get that. If they lose big this time, much of the country will be un-garrymandered, there are already more non-believers that catholics and 10 ~15 years don´t the road they will be the majority of the electorate. They will pull out all the stops to prevent losing this one.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3353
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:24 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
People get amnesia fairly quickly. You'd think that after the 2013 government shutdown (for example), Democrats would have had an edge in Congressional elections the following year, yet they got blown out. So many people from these swing states will likely pout, take out their anger through marches, and threaten recalls or a massive effort at the next election cycle...meanwhile, the damage will have been done; you can't recall the EC votes once certified and entered in the official tally. See above on what COULD happen.

A government shutdown (which is a completely precedented thing that has occurred numerous times, driven by understandable differences in fiscal policy, and has little practical effect on most American's lives) is something quite different from stealing an election.

einsteinboricua wrote:
2. Partisanship and gerrymandering. If Republicans are in safe R districts, only a primary will kick them out. They're pretty much insulated from a wipe-out as it is. Democrats in D districts can't do a thing about it. Sure, in terms of the popular vote they (Dems and Inds) represent a majority, but gerrymandered districts means disproportionate representation from GOP areas who will only be too happy knowing that the people they sent will force the state to vote as the minority wishes. A state's supreme court COULD get involved, but that's gonna be a big mess (and it's likely that they'll be political appointees who will look the other way).

That's the thing about swing states...what is a safe R or safe D district is always changing.

einsteinboricua wrote:
So to answer your question: the incentive is to retain power through all means, especially if the legislature is forecasted to remain unchanged, knowing that the gamble could pay off

And it's QUITE a gamble, and one I'd highly doubt would command unanimous support...and for little pay-off at that. A hypothetical Republican legislature could equally as likely to retain power if they don't support a hypothetical Trump request to give him their electors.

einsteinboricua wrote:
In OH, however, the GOP holds a supermajority as it requires only 3/5 to override a veto...wouldn't be surprised to see OH Rs passing a law and overriding DeWine's veto to allow them to appoint the electors.

I would. You act like Ohio is a solid red state...one that twice voted for Obama. You're projecting national-level partisanship to local level, and it's just not a direct translation.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2725
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:24 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Surely someone thinking about this plan is also looking at the risk/reward of doing this ? What's losing an election compared to losing your country ?


given that a good chunk of Republicans and their voters want the country to go away and be replaced by an Iran style theocracy with only a different version of the same book as constitution they probably don´t care. They much rather have realized this is their last chance to get that. If they lose big this time, much of the country will be un-garrymandered, there are already more non-believers that catholics and 10 ~15 years don´t the road they will be the majority of the electorate. They will pull out all the stops to prevent losing this one.

best regards
Thomas

I can assure you it isn't the Catholic vote that wants that. The Catholic vote is big on Biden
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14446
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:28 am

stl07 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Surely someone thinking about this plan is also looking at the risk/reward of doing this ? What's losing an election compared to losing your country ?


given that a good chunk of Republicans and their voters want the country to go away and be replaced by an Iran style theocracy with only a different version of the same book as constitution they probably don´t care. They much rather have realized this is their last chance to get that. If they lose big this time, much of the country will be un-garrymandered, there are already more non-believers that catholics and 10 ~15 years don´t the road they will be the majority of the electorate. They will pull out all the stops to prevent losing this one.

best regards
Thomas

I can assure you it isn't the Catholic vote that wants that. The Catholic vote is big on Biden


Oh, i know... i was just referring to the size of the non-believers block these days.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Zeppi
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
They much rather have realized this is their last chance to get that.


This, and I can totally see the USA descending into a second civil war because of that, all the ingredients are there now. If Trump looses the election by a not too big margin and mobilises all his desciples, of whom everyone and their dog is owning guns, it'll get very ugly very fast. We've seen US citicens shoot each other up just recenlty during the protests, I am willing to bet the same will happen just on a much larger scale in such a scenario.It's a shame to see the US becoming the very thing it used to fight, but as they say: All good things come to an end.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15619
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:23 pm

For months, the Trump maladministration and Republicans have been setting up this plot and an actual conspiracy to keep Trump in office by trying to 'fix' the election process and results in competitive states.
They have belittled the use and exaggerated the risks from using mail voting. Attempts to cripple the US Post Office from being able to deliver and handle returned ballots. Tried to limit the numbers and locations of early voting and election day polling locations and secure ballot drop off boxes. Threats of WS and RWNJ 'poll watchers' to scare off especially non-White voters. Only accepting the votes counted in the hours after polls close. Encouraging strict voter ID and other laws. In 2000 it was 'hanging chads' on ballots in Florida, this year it will be matching signatures on mail ballots to digitally recorded or paper ones along with massive challenges to force decisions in favor of Trump..There will be pressure on state and county election boards to rush the counts of mail ballots. Discourage mail voting and push to have voters show up at what will be in many places reduced numbers and understaffed voting locations. The news media despite to call a 'winner' ASAP.. Then the possible attempts to reject a full count of ballots and have Republican controlled legislatures chose who won and possible appeal to a fixed SCOTUS. What a horror show it will be, with potential protests and violence that will pale the BLM/anti-racism ones pale in comparison.
Democrats must do what it takes to put pressure on their Republican colleagues to not fix the election, spend $100's of millions in costs for recounts and audits of ballots, make sure all for their party are able to vote, fight any challenges to the counting of votes, protect polling locations, for legal costs in court fights. This is fight for the heart and soul of America. If we allow Trump and Republicans to win by trying to fix the election to them. then we have become Putin's Russia and a failed country.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14446
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:27 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Attempts to cripple the US Post Office from being able to deliver and handle returned ballots. .


does anyone know if the sorting machines are back in operation already? After all that was just a court order, just like continuing the census until October 31st.... and what did Wilbur Ross do first? "Don´t care, we stop Oct. 5th" .....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8652
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:46 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
A government shutdown (which is a completely precedented thing that has occurred numerous times, driven by understandable differences in fiscal policy, and has little practical effect on most American's lives) is something quite different from stealing an election.
The furloughed employees and their families from the last government shutdown would like to have a word with you.

flyguy89 wrote:
That's the thing about swing states...what is a safe R or safe D district is always changing.

We're not talking federal levels; we're talking about state districts...districts that send people to the state House and Senate. The only change so far is in the suburban districts which have become fertile ground for competitive races. Beyond that, with packed and cracked districts, many of these are rather uncompetitive.

flyguy89 wrote:
And it's QUITE a gamble, and one I'd highly doubt would command unanimous support...and for little pay-off at that. A hypothetical Republican legislature could equally as likely to retain power if they don't support a hypothetical Trump request to give him their electors.

After Senate Republicans enacted a blockade for the SCOTUS, I don't doubt of their ability to take these gambles anymore. Remember, unless a state legislature has adjourned for the year and has no way to reorganize back into session, nothing is stopping them from gathering together shortly after the election to do a blatant power grab; their seats will likely be unchanged meaning that when a new term begins, they'll still hold power.

NC Republicans showed how little regard they have for decorum when, during a solemn occasion, they snuck in a veto override to the agenda at a time when Democrats were attending a funeral. Tell me why, if they had the numbers, they wouldn't consider something like this?

[quote="flyguy89"I would. You act like Ohio is a solid red state...one that twice voted for Obama. You're projecting national-level partisanship to local level, and it's just not a direct translation.[/quote]
There is a reason the bench of Republicans is strong in OH. There is a reason it was initially written off from the battlemap this election cycle. There is a reason OH still keeps a GOP edge (much like FL).

Look at the state house/senate districts and notice where the blue is concentrated. Even if you alienate all the voters in Columbus, Cincinnati, and Cleveland (to name a few), they're all clustered in the same area. Do you think that an Appalachian Ohioan will be disappointed if the state narrowly voted for Biden yet its legislature decided to award the electors to Trump instead? Quite the contrary...unless they're a principled Republican voter, they'll be too pleased to know that even though their side lost the vote, it'll still carry OH's votes.

OH leans more Republicans than you might think. That it voted for Obama has nothing to do with it. It meant that enough Independents with Democrats tipped the state over to him. Before that, it voted twice for Bush. And if you look at the current bench: the only statewide Democrat is Sherrod Brown...that's not necessarily the marking of a swing state. Arizona has a better claim to swing state now that its makeup is mixed.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3353
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:54 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
A government shutdown (which is a completely precedented thing that has occurred numerous times, driven by understandable differences in fiscal policy, and has little practical effect on most American's lives) is something quite different from stealing an election.
The furloughed employees and their families from the last government shutdown would like to have a word with you.

The vast vast majority of the electorate doesn't work for the government, and all those who were furloughed received back pay.

einsteinboricua wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
That's the thing about swing states...what is a safe R or safe D district is always changing.

We're not talking federal levels; we're talking about state districts...districts that send people to the state House and Senate. The only change so far is in the suburban districts which have become fertile ground for competitive races. Beyond that, with packed and cracked districts, many of these are rather uncompetitive.

Not really. As recently as 2010, Democrats were in control of the Ohio General Assembly as well as the governorship.

einsteinboricua wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
And it's QUITE a gamble, and one I'd highly doubt would command unanimous support...and for little pay-off at that. A hypothetical Republican legislature could equally as likely to retain power if they don't support a hypothetical Trump request to give him their electors.

After Senate Republicans enacted a blockade for the SCOTUS, I don't doubt of their ability to take these gambles anymore. Remember, unless a state legislature has adjourned for the year and has no way to reorganize back into session, nothing is stopping them from gathering together shortly after the election to do a blatant power grab; their seats will likely be unchanged meaning that when a new term begins, they'll still hold power.

Again, you're projecting national partisan politics to the local level, and also again, the above is quite a bit different from overruling an election. Partisan bickering and power plays over supreme court confirmations and court packing is nothing new. Overturning an election and precipitating a constitutional crisis never before seen or done is quite a step beyond the Rubicon. It's not wholly impossible, just highly improbable IMO, and even more improbable that it would succeed. Additionally, my understanding of current election law is that legislatures can't legally "take back" the power to appoint their electors once voting has commenced unless they can argue and prove in court that the voters haven't made a choice.

einsteinboricua wrote:
nothing is stopping them from gathering together shortly after the election to do a blatant power grab

Sure there is: an entire independent branch of the government, the judiciary.

einsteinboricua wrote:
NC Republicans showed how little regard they have for decorum when, during a solemn occasion, they snuck in a veto override to the agenda at a time when Democrats were attending a funeral. Tell me why, if they had the numbers, they wouldn't consider something like this?

So because they overrode a veto, that means they're going to vote lockstep to overrule an election? There are any number of reasons why they wouldn't...principled objection, dislike of Trump, dislike of federal interference, not to mention an unattractive risk/reward situation (if they're likely to retain their power with or without Trump in office, why put their seat at all at risk by doing something dubious to withstand in the courts?).

einsteinboricua wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I would. You act like Ohio is a solid red state...one that twice voted for Obama. You're projecting national-level partisanship to local level, and it's just not a direct translation.

There is a reason the bench of Republicans is strong in OH. There is a reason it was initially written off from the battlemap this election cycle. There is a reason OH still keeps a GOP edge (much like FL).

Look at the state house/senate districts and notice where the blue is concentrated. Even if you alienate all the voters in Columbus, Cincinnati, and Cleveland (to name a few), they're all clustered in the same area. Do you think that an Appalachian Ohioan will be disappointed if the state narrowly voted for Biden yet its legislature decided to award the electors to Trump instead? Quite the contrary...unless they're a principled Republican voter, they'll be too pleased to know that even though their side lost the vote, it'll still carry OH's votes.

OH leans more Republicans than you might think. That it voted for Obama has nothing to do with it. It meant that enough Independents with Democrats tipped the state over to him. Before that, it voted twice for Bush. And if you look at the current bench: the only statewide Democrat is Sherrod Brown...that's not necessarily the marking of a swing state. Arizona has a better claim to swing state now that its makeup is mixed.

I've actually lived in Ohio quite some time, so I'm particularly familiar here. It's precisely the Independents, who are among the largest voting bloc, who give ohio its "swingness" if you will.

I'm sorry, but I just don't find much credence here. It all reads too much like a liberal fever dream and I feel more than confident to say that there will ultimately be a clear election winner and a peaceful transfer of power that will (hopefully) see Trump booted out of office. Election counts will likely be drawn out beyond election night, and Trump may try to file a court challenge here or there, but that's about it IMHO.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13172
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: GOP and Trump seek to bypass election results

Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:54 am

Brennan just reconfirmed that Trump is misleading the public about his newly released notes.

https://twitter.com/JohnBrennan/status/ ... gr%5Etweet

In debate,
@Mike_Pence
lied about handwritten notes of mine from 2016 that referenced unsubstantiated Russian allegation about Secretary Clinton. Follows DNI Ratcliffe’s politicized release of misleading snippets of documents.

Russia helped Trump, and continues to.

Full stop.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, Redd, TheF15Ace and 53 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos