Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5816
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Should government fund private cashless payments?

Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:18 pm

Currently, there are multiple form of cashless payment in the world, including credit card, transit card, qr code payment, anf other form of payment over the internet. They typically charge 2-3% transaction handling fee to pay for their infrastructural cost, which is am added burden to a number of smaller and individual merchant and why they aren't willing to support these nea payment methods

But in term of cost on the whole society, I guess these costs should still be less than having to mine, print, handle, store, maintain, and lost coins and banknotes, despite those costs are misly already covered by government, banks, and such.

Is my understanding on the cost of cash correct? If so, should the government (or monetary authority) pay for those electronic payment system handling fee like how it now pay for printing banknotes and mining coin, such that the cost can be taken off individual vendors and increase the society's efficiency? If not, why?
 
User avatar
T18
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:28 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:35 pm

I'd say no, largest reason against is I've seen what happens when the fed start paying/subsiding stuff, the company that collects will slowly jack the fees up know the fed will pay them much more than a sane business would and next thing we know those fees could be 40+%, which in the end all of us are paying for with our taxes. Now if you want to create a scheme to assist small vendors and have a robust way to prevent and catch any price gouging, you may find I can be swayed.

I will say the idea of a fully cashless society has merit, and could work after all I've not used cash at all in at least 5 years.
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5816
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:43 pm

T18 wrote:
I'd say no, largest reason against is I've seen what happens when the fed start paying/subsiding stuff, the company that collects will slowly jack the fees up know the fed will pay them much more than a sane business would and next thing we know those fees could be 40+%, which in the end all of us are paying for with our taxes. Now if you want to create a scheme to assist small vendors and have a robust way to prevent and catch any price gouging, you may find I can be swayed.

I will say the idea of a fully cashless society has merit, and could work after all I've not used cash at all in at least 5 years.

What if, say for example the government hand out a flat 2% fee to any processors who have reached a certain amount of usage, with it possible for them to charge extra based on usage condition to cover any uncovered costs, while also making it viable for new competitor to enter the market and keep the market competitive?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:44 pm

What you need is a Danish setup:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dankort

TLDR: By law, merchants pay an annual fee based on how many transactions he does, no fees for the customer and merchants aren't allowed to pass the fees on.
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5816
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:22 pm

VSMUT wrote:
What you need is a Danish setup:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dankort

TLDR: By law, merchants pay an annual fee based on how many transactions he does, no fees for the customer and merchants aren't allowed to pass the fees on.

It's still an additional fee that wouldn't be welcomed by e.g. individual bakery or individual taxi drivers
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:10 am

Cash is liberty, always carry a few hundred, just in case.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2110
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:12 am

c933103 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
What you need is a Danish setup:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dankort

TLDR: By law, merchants pay an annual fee based on how many transactions he does, no fees for the customer and merchants aren't allowed to pass the fees on.

It's still an additional fee that wouldn't be welcomed by e.g. individual bakery or individual taxi drivers


But, as with your hypothesis that costs to governments would be reduced by going cashless, it can reduce costs to individual businesses also, balancing the costs.

Covid has really pushed the adoption of cashless payments in my country, although the level was already quite high, and coordinated (unlike the USA for example). Until earlier this year, small value payments were preferred in cash, but businesses have adopted cashless just to stay in business. There are allowed to charge a small amount to cover costs, and quite a number do charge around 1.5%, some a small flat fee, and some a fee below a certain transaction value.

One of our major supermarket chains is going fully cashless at several locations as a trial, but that chain is large enough that it has long amortised cashless processing fees broadly across the business.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8717
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:11 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cash is liberty, always carry a few hundred, just in case.

The current coin shortage begs to differ.

Being owed 50 cents when you still have about $200 in cash is insignificant. Being owed 50 cents when all you have left is $5...not so much.

I will never have more than $40 on me, unless I won big at a casino and haven't deposited the money or something, and I only keep cash to play lottery. For all else, plastic or cyber.
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2691
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:43 am

Cashless payments and transactions actually benefit governments in some way because they are easily trackable for tax and AML purposes.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13704
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:28 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cash is liberty, always carry a few hundred, just in case.


Is it really, there are plenty of retailers who no longer accept cash. A lot of banks in Norway no longer have cash on site as well. Cash is going the way of the check, in a generation it will be gone.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20198
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:25 am

Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cash is liberty, always carry a few hundred, just in case.


Is it really, there are plenty of retailers who no longer accept cash.


It has been accelerated by CoronaVirus, but fewer and fewer outlets accept cash in the UK (whether they'll go back to it afterwards remains to be seen). When we visited NZ last year we noticed that even farm fruit & veg stalls at the side of the road would only accept electronic payment by card or phone. I very rarely withdraw cash these days (there are a couple of small shops where we live that still only accept cash they're a PITA but rare these days) as even our local taxis prefer non-cash payments.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:19 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cash is liberty, always carry a few hundred, just in case.


Liberals are gung ho to get rid of cash so they can literally starve their political opponents to death, as they prone to do. Once all transactions are cashless, and handled by nominally private corporations, all they will need to do is apply pressure on the handful of banks and payment systems that control them and they will fold like a house of paper and cut the "undesirables" off, and once you lose access to the payments system, unless you grow all your own food you will starve. There are plenty of examples already of people (all conservatives, naturally) being cut off from systems like MasterCard, PayPal, GoFundMe, etc. to consider this a good idea.

Also, it is not like there aren't plenty of examples of governments weaponizing the banking regulatory system to go after businesses that are legal but that they don't like and don't have the votes to ban. For Christ's sake, they even give away their intentions in the name of the operation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... prov=sfla1
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20198
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:12 pm

Pyrex wrote:
Liberals are gung ho to get rid of cash so they can literally starve their political opponents to death, as they prone to do.


This may actually be the funniest thing I've ever read on airliners.net. Well played, Sir! :rotfl:

Presumably, as a anti-liberal, you support the right of a private businesses to decide they won't accept cash? Hmm, I see your conundrum.
 
Airontario
Posts: 733
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2001 12:04 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:35 pm

I haven't touched physical money since March. No plan on re-starting anytime soon. Everything I need to buy, I use my credit card for. If a retailer doesn't accept Visa, I use my debit card.

I don't think I've seen a retailer in Southern Ontario who doesn't accept either credit or debit cards in more than 5 years.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:50 pm

I would not support an in person business that does not accept cash. Can't say what to do about online since they are effectively pure credit/debit card and PayPal/Venmo situations exclusively.

The day cash ends as an accepted and publicly (government) supported tool for monetary transactions is the day many people are screwed. The "black market" and off-the-books payment, transactions made without tracking and without a financial institution etc. is an important element of financial health. We need it.

And I say this as someone who values and uses the heck out of credit cards (I have two, well three if you count the company card. Also think having a bunch of cards is silly. And never debit cards, never).

Tugg
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8717
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:44 pm

scbriml wrote:
Presumably, as a anti-liberal, you support the right of a private businesses to decide they won't accept cash? Hmm, I see your conundrum.

I love when the free-market advocates suddenly find that the free-market policies the champion can bite them in the end.

Just like when they think a business has a right to deny service to anyone, but protest when THEY'RE the ones denied service.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8613
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:22 pm

Monopolies never increase efficiency. Those services need to continue to compete among themselves and keep the innovation going. There’s been a lot of innovation in this area and it would be a shame to lose it all.

Physical cash is already a tiny percentage of all transactions, anyways. Most of the money supply is already digital/virtual.
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5816
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:39 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Is it really, there are plenty of retailers who no longer accept cash. A lot of banks in Norway no longer have cash on site as well. Cash is going the way of the check, in a generation it will be gone.

There was a time when I was in Northern Europe, trying to make payment to some machines through credit card, but was keep getting rejected. It demands some sort of credit card password to be keyed in, but such password is not available to cards issued in my place of origin.

scbriml wrote:
This may actually be the funniest thing I've ever read on airliners.net. Well played, Sir! :rotfl:

Presumably, as a anti-liberal, you support the right of a private businesses to decide they won't accept cash? Hmm, I see your conundrum.

Why would "anti-liberal" (authoritarian?) support the liberal idea of everyone have right to choose who they serve?

PPVRA wrote:
Monopolies never increase efficiency. Those services need to continue to compete among themselves and keep the innovation going. There’s been a lot of innovation in this area and it would be a shame to lose it all.

Physical cash is already a tiny percentage of all transactions, anyways. Most of the money supply is already digital/virtual.

Such sort of public support can be given to multiple and all payment processors meeting certain basic guidelines to reduce risk of monopoly, I guess
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 14172
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:11 pm

Cashless payment services are a value added service. The Money is already Government funded.
Government does not need to step in and provide relief for these services.

In many areas, there are fees associated with using cards,(different gas prices), or minimum charges required.


For most businesses there are great incentives to using cards that allows them to absorb the cost.

The impulsive shopper is much more likely to buy a product on credit rather than cash. Most people do not carry a lot of cash on hand. Those items that are above and beyond a certain price may not sell as well without credit cards, so for the most part credit companies absorb the charges.

On the consumer side, there are points/cash back/rewards/benefits that help to incentivize the use of credit cards, even when there is a price difference.
 
bgm
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:16 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cash is liberty, always carry a few hundred, just in case.


Cash is filthy (yes really, you don't want to know what's on those bills) Iand outdated. The sooner it's done away with the better.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:20 pm

Yes, gets it gets your hands dirty, that’s why we invented soap and water. Cash is anonymous, universally accepted and easy to use. My college roommate, not that long ago, bought his wife a new Mercedes-cash, hundreds, mostly. He said it always wanted to do it, went to the bank and withdrew the bills. Dealer was impressed. I’ve had dealings with businesses that only want cash or check. At a recurrent, I met a Dane, he was building a house. The pictures looked impressive. Innocently asked, roughly the cost to compare with the US. “Oh, I could never afford it without using cash and off-the-books builders.”
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2110
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:35 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The pictures looked impressive. Innocently asked, roughly the cost to compare with the US. “Oh, I could never afford it without using cash and off-the-books builders.”


"Tax cheat deprives civil society but has a nice house"

As I said upthread, I support cashless payment systems, but don't feel there is a need for governments to fund them.

I forgot to mention that discounts these days where I am tend to be for using direct transfer over credit card, rather than the old"cheaper for cash, especially if I can dodge tax. It's also partly that we're seeing more and more tax cheats caught, so the risk is too great.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, gets it gets your hands dirty, that’s why we invented soap and water. Cash is anonymous, universally accepted and easy to use.

Cash is important. But those who don't use it will not understand. Those that only use their credit cards (or debit card for some reason) think only that matters as it works fine for them.

Ultimately cash is king/queen.

As an example look at voting. The best method is the simplest. Electronic is great for tabulating and managing the large volumes but you never want to give up the basic, non-electricity needing, purely mechanical and always usable, basic stuff. Never. It is an important and foundational element to all successful societies.

Tugg
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2718
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:05 am

Just get the chip under your skin for when the world goes cashless...
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13704
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:50 am

c933103 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Is it really, there are plenty of retailers who no longer accept cash. A lot of banks in Norway no longer have cash on site as well. Cash is going the way of the check, in a generation it will be gone.

There was a time when I was in Northern Europe, trying to make payment to some machines through credit card, but was keep getting rejected. It demands some sort of credit card password to be keyed in, but such password is not available to cards issued in my place of origin.


In Norway and Sweden when you use a credit card to pay it will ask for your PIN, there is not other number that I know of. I still on occasion use an AMEX card issued form a New Zealand bank and haven't had any problems with passwords.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13704
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:54 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, gets it gets your hands dirty, that’s why we invented soap and water. Cash is anonymous, universally accepted and easy to use. My college roommate, not that long ago, bought his wife a new Mercedes-cash, hundreds, mostly. He said it always wanted to do it, went to the bank and withdrew the bills. Dealer was impressed. I’ve had dealings with businesses that only want cash or check. At a recurrent, I met a Dane, he was building a house. The pictures looked impressive. Innocently asked, roughly the cost to compare with the US. “Oh, I could never afford it without using cash and off-the-books builders.”


When I was working for a Land Rover/Range Rover dealership in the early 00's a customer came in with cash to buy a new Range Rover, we were not allowed to accept it, he ended up paying with the first black AMEX card I ever saw. We had to put the sale through the parts department, sales didn't have a terminal.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13704
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:56 am

Tugger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, gets it gets your hands dirty, that’s why we invented soap and water. Cash is anonymous, universally accepted and easy to use.

Cash is important. But those who don't use it will not understand. Those that only use their credit cards (or debit card for some reason) think only that matters as it works fine for them.

Ultimately cash is king/queen.

As an example look at voting. The best method is the simplest. Electronic is great for tabulating and managing the large volumes but you never want to give up the basic, non-electricity needing, purely mechanical and always usable, basic stuff. Never. It is an important and foundational element to all successful societies.

Tugg


I'm sure if you live in a developing country with an outdated banking system it probably is. I can't remember the last time I used cash in Norway, even for the smallest purchases I use a card. Usually AMEX for the points.
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5816
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:05 am

Kiwirob wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Is it really, there are plenty of retailers who no longer accept cash. A lot of banks in Norway no longer have cash on site as well. Cash is going the way of the check, in a generation it will be gone.

There was a time when I was in Northern Europe, trying to make payment to some machines through credit card, but was keep getting rejected. It demands some sort of credit card password to be keyed in, but such password is not available to cards issued in my place of origin.


In Norway and Sweden when you use a credit card to pay it will ask for your PIN, there is not other number that I know of. I still on occasion use an AMEX card issued form a New Zealand bank and haven't had any problems with passwords.

PIN is probably the correct name of what I'm trying to refer to. Such thing doesn't exists for any cards issued from Hong Kong.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:32 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, gets it gets your hands dirty, that’s why we invented soap and water. Cash is anonymous, universally accepted and easy to use.

Cash is important. But those who don't use it will not understand. Those that only use their credit cards (or debit card for some reason) think only that matters as it works fine for them.

Ultimately cash is king/queen.

As an example look at voting. The best method is the simplest. Electronic is great for tabulating and managing the large volumes but you never want to give up the basic, non-electricity needing, purely mechanical and always usable, basic stuff. Never. It is an important and foundational element to all successful societies.

Tugg


I'm sure if you live in a developing country with an outdated banking system it probably is. I can't remember the last time I used cash in Norway, even for the smallest purchases I use a card. Usually AMEX for the points.

Yes, I use my cards primarily as well. For the protection, convenience and perks they provide. Have for years. And it appears you really don't have the option to use cash in Norway so you of course would not use cash nor understand how important it is. The ability to use cash is key for many reasons, from the absolute freedom and anonymity it provides to the competition with any other method that requires a fee, it ensures a secure sound financial system. Simple, especially small transactions are always helped by a quick, no additional tool (machine or electronic thing needed to actually transact) required. The other thing it provides for a nation is global power. Anyone can use cash, anywhere in the world. And the government that backs it, that says "hand this in to the bank and it will be accepted with the backing of "X" government" has the chance, if it is stable and strong, to become a global currency.

But it is equally important on a local level. Give cash, that person is guaranteed, HAS that money. Period. It's not up the bank remaining solvent or the computer working. Cash works.

Tugg
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20198
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:14 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
"Tax cheat deprives civil society but has a nice house"


Not just me, then. I was surprised how easily some folks in this thread seem to support this kind of behaviour.

c933103 wrote:
PIN is probably the correct name of what I'm trying to refer to. Such thing doesn't exists for any cards issued from Hong Kong.


Pretty rare to find a chipless card in Europe these days. But even so, you can still swipe the magnetic strip and sign.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1808
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:47 pm

scbriml wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
"Tax cheat deprives civil society but has a nice house"


Not just me, then. I was surprised how easily some folks in this thread seem to support this kind of behaviour.



I also found myself slightly baffled that the argument for why the government must keep cash in circulation is so people can cheat the government.

I always keep some cash on me, stashed away. Used to find that my emergency cash would get used more often, these days it’s becoming an annual thing to make sure I still have that same $100 as last year.

I don’t mind money becoming more digital. There have been a number of occasions where having a record of payment has helped me out.

Apps like venmo have made it too convenient. No more fumbling around for cash during a night out with friends, trying to determine who owes what. Usually someone uses a credit card (gotta get those points) and then everyone else repays. It's beneficial and easier for all.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24084
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:02 pm

I don't think the government should fund cashless payments. We are headed that way anyway, so let nature take it's course.

GF makes an interesting point, though. Banking regulations make it illegal to take cashless payments for sales of legal marijuana. They have ATMs on sight but they are those shady ones that charge through the nose to withdraw any amount. Instead of the government getting involved in cashless, the government should loosen restrictions on legal marijuana sales.

And, then, what about other substances and services that can only be gotten in anonymous ways or even tipping "dancers" at certain adult entertainment facilities? Going cashless brings up a host of unintended consequences.
 
User avatar
c933103
Topic Author
Posts: 5816
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:08 pm

scbriml wrote:
c933103 wrote:
PIN is probably the correct name of what I'm trying to refer to. Such thing doesn't exists for any cards issued from Hong Kong.


Pretty rare to find a chipless card in Europe these days. But even so, you can still swipe the magnetic strip and sign.

All cards here have chips, but no PIN.
Magnetic strip swiping and sign does not work for automated machines without human attention.
There are also contactless, but some doesn't support it.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10197
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:40 am

Pyrex wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cash is liberty, always carry a few hundred, just in case.


Liberals are gung ho to get rid of cash so they can literally starve their political opponents to death, as they prone to do.


Cash, at some level will always be critical. Start with tips when you go out to eat, or tips for the porters helping you with your luggage when you are traveling,

And remember the challenges when pickpockets get your cards. Happened to my wife in Paris and our single credit card had the same number on both our cards. Being from the US our Debit Card from two banks did not yet have a chip and you cannot get cash from ATMs there without that bloody little chip. Fortunately our daughter (or her husband) was able to send US $750 via Western Union. We needed that cash for there rest of the trip because of increased costs of recovering from the theft.,

Get in that situation and cash is king.

Each week we put $40 under the Welcome mat at the front door for the team that mows and trims our yard.

We also need a wad of $1 bills for the Red. Kettles. I'd be just as happy giving more once, but like the idea of those manning the Kettles seeing that they do achieve something.

There is also the issue of the homeless who beg for money, or at least need cash to get a meal.

As an old retailer I can also tell you that cash does not bounce - but checks does.
 
Jetty
Posts: 1403
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:21 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I'm sure if you live in a developing country with an outdated banking system it probably is. I can't remember the last time I used cash in Norway, even for the smallest purchases I use a card. Usually AMEX for the points.

Using a credit card for the points is what I would call an outdated banking system. Here in The Netherlands creditcards are not accepted at many places because of the outrageous fees which fund your points. We have banking cards for which banks charge about € 0,01 per transaction and € 60 a year for a private account. Much better for retailers and customers: you might like the points but in the end you pay for them yourself.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2110
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:33 am

Ken777 wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cash is liberty, always carry a few hundred, just in case.


Liberals are gung ho to get rid of cash so they can literally starve their political opponents to death, as they prone to do.


Cash, at some level will always be critical. Start with tips when you go out to eat, or tips for the porters helping you with your luggage when you are traveling,

And remember the challenges when pickpockets get your cards. Happened to my wife in Paris and our single credit card had the same number on both our cards. Being from the US our Debit Card from two banks did not yet have a chip and you cannot get cash from ATMs there without that bloody little chip. Fortunately our daughter (or her husband) was able to send US $750 via Western Union. We needed that cash for there rest of the trip because of increased costs of recovering from the theft.,

Get in that situation and cash is king.

Each week we put $40 under the Welcome mat at the front door for the team that mows and trims our yard.

We also need a wad of $1 bills for the Red. Kettles. I'd be just as happy giving more once, but like the idea of those manning the Kettles seeing that they do achieve something.

There is also the issue of the homeless who beg for money, or at least need cash to get a meal.

As an old retailer I can also tell you that cash does not bounce - but checks does.


The US system has it's own very specific and deep seated cultural issues. I agree that it would be difficult for the US tipping system to operate as broadly as it does with a cashless system.

Card security too - here in Australia we've had chip and pin long before contactless (around 20 years), and (at least with my bank) joint cards have unique numbers. And once you dump the cards for phone based transactions a stolen or defrauded card can be replaced in minutes.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10197
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:00 am

Ken777 wrote:
Pyrex wrote:

Cash, at some level will always be critical. Start with tips when you go out to eat, or tips for the porters helping you with your luggage when you are traveling,

Get in that situation and cash is king.

As an old retailer I can also tell you that cash does not bounce - but checks do.


The US system has it's own very specific and deep seated cultural issues. I agree that it would be difficult for the US tipping system to operate as broadly as it does with a cashless system.

Card security too - here in Australia we've had chip and pin long before contactless (around 20 years), and (at least with my bank) joint cards have unique numbers. And once you dump the cards for phone based transactions a stolen or defrauded card can be replaced in minutes.


Do workers in Australia still get their "pay packets" filled with cash each week?

And as an old retailer working 8 years in Perth I can also tell you that cash does not bounce - but cheques do.

I actually prefer the Aussie (and European ) approach where workers are paid a living wage and no tip is expected, except when they have a Yank for a customer.

At the same time, when I get help with luggage when traveling I always tip a bit in appreciation.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2110
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:11 am

Ken777 wrote:
Do workers in Australia still get their "pay packets" filled with cash each week?

And as an old retailer working 8 years in Perth I can also tell you that cash does not bounce - but cheques do.

I actually prefer the Aussie (and European ) approach where workers are paid a living wage and no tip is expected, except when they have a Yank for a customer.

At the same time, when I get help with luggage when traveling I always tip a bit in appreciation.


In 1982 the McDonalds franchisee I worked for forced all staff to be paid into a bank account. I've never been paid cash as an employee since IIRC, certainly not since 1988. Cheques will be phased out pretty soon, as their numbers have been dropping 30% a year over the last few years.

I accept the US tipping system for what it is, but it is opaque and painful to have to work out how many notes of which denomination you need to feed which birds when you're travelling. The fact that US banknotes all looks the same at a glance helps not a jot either. Were I can, I tip via card.

I've been travelling to the US fairly regularly over the last 4-5 years, and it has been interesting to see how payment systems have jumped a couple of generations quickly, jumping (to an extent) from magnetic strip cards direct to apple/google pay and similar. I still laugh every time I have to sign for a credit transaction, even though it may be a digital pen.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:18 am

Kent350787 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The pictures looked impressive. Innocently asked, roughly the cost to compare with the US. “Oh, I could never afford it without using cash and off-the-books builders.”


"Tax cheat deprives civil society but has a nice house"

As I said upthread, I support cashless payment systems, but don't feel there is a need for governments to fund them.

I forgot to mention that discounts these days where I am tend to be for using direct transfer over credit card, rather than the old"cheaper for cash, especially if I can dodge tax. It's also partly that we're seeing more and more tax cheats caught, so the risk is too great.


Tax cheat? The homeowner enters a contract with a tradesman to do work, work completed, pays contractor. Two consenting adults doing business as I see it. Your assumption is the government is a party to business, it’s not. It happens all the time in the US and I’m sure elsewhere.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2110
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:47 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Tax cheat? The homeowner enters a contract with a tradesman to do work, work completed, pays contractor. Two consenting adults doing business as I see it. Your assumption is the government is a party to business, it’s not. It happens all the time in the US and I’m sure elsewhere.


The homeowner and the tradesperson colluded to avoid legal requirements of the country in which they reside.

Tax cheats.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20198
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:45 am

Kent350787 wrote:
The homeowner and the tradesperson colluded to avoid legal requirements of the country in which they reside.

Tax cheats.


For a long time in the UK any tradesman would quote you for a job, then give you the somewhat lower "cash" price for the same job. The consequences were clear - if you paid cash, that money went straight into his pocket and he didn't pay tax on it. It happens much less these days - even the guys like our chimney sweep or window cleaner want to be paid online.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The homeowner enters a contract with a tradesman to do work, work completed, pays contractor. Two consenting adults doing business as I see it.


Of course. Nudge, nudge. Wink, wink. What the taxman doesn't know and all that. Two consenting adults doing business? Right.


As for paying cash for a new car - I'm pretty sure you can't do that in the UK these days because of money laundering laws.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13704
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:19 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Ken777 wrote:
Pyrex wrote:

Liberals are gung ho to get rid of cash so they can literally starve their political opponents to death, as they prone to do.


Cash, at some level will always be critical. Start with tips when you go out to eat, or tips for the porters helping you with your luggage when you are traveling,

And remember the challenges when pickpockets get your cards. Happened to my wife in Paris and our single credit card had the same number on both our cards. Being from the US our Debit Card from two banks did not yet have a chip and you cannot get cash from ATMs there without that bloody little chip. Fortunately our daughter (or her husband) was able to send US $750 via Western Union. We needed that cash for there rest of the trip because of increased costs of recovering from the theft.,

Get in that situation and cash is king.

Each week we put $40 under the Welcome mat at the front door for the team that mows and trims our yard.

We also need a wad of $1 bills for the Red. Kettles. I'd be just as happy giving more once, but like the idea of those manning the Kettles seeing that they do achieve something.

There is also the issue of the homeless who beg for money, or at least need cash to get a meal.

As an old retailer I can also tell you that cash does not bounce - but checks does.


The US system has it's own very specific and deep seated cultural issues. I agree that it would be difficult for the US tipping system to operate as broadly as it does with a cashless system.

Card security too - here in Australia we've had chip and pin long before contactless (around 20 years), and (at least with my bank) joint cards have unique numbers. And once you dump the cards for phone based transactions a stolen or defrauded card can be replaced in minutes.


It's another good reason to go cashless, no more tipping, it will force the business owners who have tipped staff to improve the salaries.
 
jomur
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:30 am

It is cheaper to use cash than digital of any form for just about every small business. Large companies will always benefit from thier large size and pay less for the digital services.
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2718
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:49 pm

Only Cashless means that someday the "World Government/Fight Climate Change" Tax can be levied on EVERY transaction...
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:43 pm

scbriml wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
"Tax cheat deprives civil society but has a nice house"


Not just me, then. I was surprised how easily some folks in this thread seem to support this kind of behaviour.

c933103 wrote:
PIN is probably the correct name of what I'm trying to refer to. Such thing doesn't exists for any cards issued from Hong Kong.


Pretty rare to find a chipless card in Europe these days. But even so, you can still swipe the magnetic strip and sign.


I am sure you are the type of guy who would be decrying a farmer in Soviet Russia selling his cabbages on the "black market" instead of the local government cooperative so he can afford a repair of the heating system on his house as a kulak and a hoarder.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:07 pm

Pyrex wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
"Tax cheat deprives civil society but has a nice house"


Not just me, then. I was surprised how easily some folks in this thread seem to support this kind of behaviour.

c933103 wrote:
PIN is probably the correct name of what I'm trying to refer to. Such thing doesn't exists for any cards issued from Hong Kong.


Pretty rare to find a chipless card in Europe these days. But even so, you can still swipe the magnetic strip and sign.


I am sure you are the type of guy who would be decrying a farmer in Soviet Russia selling his cabbages on the "black market" instead of the local government cooperative so he can afford a repair of the heating system on his house as a kulak and a hoarder.


EXACTLY!
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:08 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Ken777 wrote:

Cash, at some level will always be critical. Start with tips when you go out to eat, or tips for the porters helping you with your luggage when you are traveling,

And remember the challenges when pickpockets get your cards. Happened to my wife in Paris and our single credit card had the same number on both our cards. Being from the US our Debit Card from two banks did not yet have a chip and you cannot get cash from ATMs there without that bloody little chip. Fortunately our daughter (or her husband) was able to send US $750 via Western Union. We needed that cash for there rest of the trip because of increased costs of recovering from the theft.,

Get in that situation and cash is king.

Each week we put $40 under the Welcome mat at the front door for the team that mows and trims our yard.

We also need a wad of $1 bills for the Red. Kettles. I'd be just as happy giving more once, but like the idea of those manning the Kettles seeing that they do achieve something.

There is also the issue of the homeless who beg for money, or at least need cash to get a meal.

As an old retailer I can also tell you that cash does not bounce - but checks does.


The US system has it's own very specific and deep seated cultural issues. I agree that it would be difficult for the US tipping system to operate as broadly as it does with a cashless system.

Card security too - here in Australia we've had chip and pin long before contactless (around 20 years), and (at least with my bank) joint cards have unique numbers. And once you dump the cards for phone based transactions a stolen or defrauded card can be replaced in minutes.


It's another good reason to go cashless, no more tipping, it will force the business owners who have tipped staff to improve the salaries.


In the US, waitstaff for the most part don’t want to see tipping go away, paying salary would result in significant pay cut for them.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:17 pm

Again, for me it comes down the need that there always be a robust and effective way to do anything and everything that is critical in life, without power. Without the need of an additional entity to be involved. Need to buy something? You can hand someone the funds instantly and complete the transaction and go on with your day. No need for a bank or electricity or anything else, it's done. That is very efficient. And it will always exist. Even if people try to do away with it (which I don't think will ever actually happen).

As to "tax cheat"? There is and has always been a portion of population that are tax cheats and that is far beyond paying cash. To try and conflate the two is silly and diverts from the real problem of tax cheats where it matters. And those cheats are way more costly that anything that is lost with cash payments. Those cheats are fully electronic, transferring all sorts of cash electronically quickly around the world under various entities. So it is electronic "cashless" systems and tools that abet them and exacerbate the problem, not the other way around.

Kiwirob wrote:
It's another good reason to go cashless, no more tipping, it will force the business owners who have tipped staff to improve the salaries.

Don't know why anyone thinks tipping would go away or be really impacted by going electronic. I use my credit cards almost exclusively when eating out and always tip. It's easy. (And it's not "cashless", the digital bits flying around all represent actual funds that can be converted to cash by the recipient.)

Tugg
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:29 pm

Tugger wrote:
Again, for me it comes down the need that there always be a robust and effective way to do anything and everything that is critical in life, without power. Without the need of an additional entity to be involved. Need to buy something? You can hand someone the funds instantly and complete the transaction and go on with your day. No need for a bank or electricity or anything else, it's done. That is very efficient. And it will always exist. Even if people try to do away with it (which I don't think will ever actually happen).

As to "tax cheat"? There is and has always been a portion of population that are tax cheats and that is far beyond paying cash. To try and conflate the two is silly and diverts from the real problem of tax cheats where it matters. And those cheats are way more costly that anything that is lost with cash payments. Those cheats are fully electronic, transferring all sorts of cash electronically quickly around the world under various entities. So it is electronic "cashless" systems and tools that abet them and exacerbate the problem, not the other way around.

Kiwirob wrote:
It's another good reason to go cashless, no more tipping, it will force the business owners who have tipped staff to improve the salaries.

Don't know why anyone thinks tipping would go away or be really impacted by going electronic. I use my credit cards almost exclusively when eating out and always tip. It's easy. (And it's not "cashless", the digital bits flying around all represent actual funds that can be converted to cash by the recipient.)

Tugg


Agree, wouldn't hurt restaurant employees that much, but would really screw over people like hotel valets, doormen, nannies, cleaning staff, etc.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2110
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:07 am

Pyrex wrote:
[

Agree, wouldn't hurt restaurant employees that much, but would really screw over people like hotel valets, doormen, nannies, cleaning staff, etc.


Yeah, you are right. They do deserve a reasonable base wage just like in the rest of the world.

AS for my Soviet cabbages. meh. I just think the "I don't want to go cashless because I won't be able to screw the tax system" is an even crappier argument that the US specific difficulties around tipping low paid service workers.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: boeing767322er, CaptHadley, Google [Bot] and 34 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos