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Tugger
Posts: 11532
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:18 am

Kent350787 wrote:
.AS for my Soviet cabbages. meh. I just think the "I don't want to go cashless because I won't be able to screw the tax system" is an even crappier argument that the US specific difficulties around tipping low paid service workers.

Taxes are not the issue really, need is. And a person must be able to meet that need, and direct cash transactions allow that.

However, related to your point is the fact that cash is used around the world to avoid onerous and deficient government monetary policies. And taxes are a part of that often. The ability for the public in those nations to do that is critical. Life and death for many in dozens of nations (and in general it is the US greenback that is favored).

You can poo poo this but it is reality for many people.

Tugg
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2092
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:33 am

The examples of cash based tax evasion put forward so far have been firmly about wants rather than needs.

I have no sympathy if that option is removed.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11532
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:30 am

Kent350787 wrote:
The examples of cash based tax evasion put forward so far have been firmly about wants rather than needs.

I have no sympathy if that option is removed.

And that is fine however it is not possible to avoid the one and so it must be managed. And it is. There are legal consequences, which are the very normal tools all use to mange such things.

Tugg
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:48 am

Kent350787 wrote:
The examples of cash based tax evasion put forward so far have been firmly about wants rather than needs.

I have no sympathy if that option is removed.


Agree. I mean fuck those refugees, am I right? What right do they have to keep their meager life savings in cash, in USD, instead of in a local bank, in worthless local currency that can be confiscated by the local despot on a whim? If you want to grab something to eat on your 1,000-mile trek to safety just ask the Red Cross.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20189
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:25 am

Pyrex wrote:
I am sure you are the type of guy who would be decrying a farmer in Soviet Russia selling his cabbages on the "black market" instead of the local government cooperative so he can afford a repair of the heating system on his house as a kulak and a hoarder.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
EXACTLY!


Pyrex wrote:
Agree. I mean fuck those refugees, am I right?


Nice deflections, but Sergei and his cabbages or continent-trekking refugees have nothing to do with the point, which was upstanding citizens supporting using cash for the specific purpose of avoiding tax and accountability.

Kent350787 wrote:
The examples of cash based tax evasion put forward so far have been firmly about wants rather than needs.

I have no sympathy if that option is removed.


:checkmark:
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:31 am

scbriml wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
I am sure you are the type of guy who would be decrying a farmer in Soviet Russia selling his cabbages on the "black market" instead of the local government cooperative so he can afford a repair of the heating system on his house as a kulak and a hoarder.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
EXACTLY!


Pyrex wrote:
Agree. I mean fuck those refugees, am I right?


Nice deflections, but Sergei and his cabbages or continent-trekking refugees have nothing to do with the point, which was upstanding citizens supporting using cash for the specific purpose of avoiding tax and accountability.

So you are saying that by selling his cabbages on the black market Sergei is not avoiding tax and accountability? Or that he is not an upstanding citizen?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8576
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:20 pm

scbriml wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
I am sure you are the type of guy who would be decrying a farmer in Soviet Russia selling his cabbages on the "black market" instead of the local government cooperative so he can afford a repair of the heating system on his house as a kulak and a hoarder.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
EXACTLY!


Pyrex wrote:
Agree. I mean fuck those refugees, am I right?


Nice deflections, but Sergei and his cabbages or continent-trekking refugees have nothing to do with the point, which was upstanding citizens supporting using cash for the specific purpose of avoiding tax and accountability.

Kent350787 wrote:
The examples of cash based tax evasion put forward so far have been firmly about wants rather than needs.

I have no sympathy if that option is removed.


:checkmark:


Perhaps, if governments provided value for money there would not be people trying to avoid paying them as government is seen as a valueless transaction. Free market products exist because both the buyer and seller see themselves as better off after the transaction. If the public goods provided by governments were seen as valuable, taxation would not be seen as something to be avoided.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11532
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should government fund private cashless payments?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:39 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Perhaps, if governments provided value for money there would not be people trying to avoid paying them as government is seen as a valueless transaction. Free market products exist because both the buyer and seller see themselves as better off after the transaction. If the public goods provided by governments were seen as valuable, taxation would not be seen as something to be avoided.

Yes and no.
One important thing that I think needs to be acknowledged is that pretty much everyone does pay taxes and agrees that it is needed.

Most people takes available deductions etc. and we move on. A few have the ability to hire teams of people to search for every way to reduce ones payment (and the savings are so great it pays for the service plus), and we move on. Then there is a small population that see any payment to the government as affront to themselves or are just criminally inclined and willfully ignore and avoid paying any appropriate level of taxes. This is why there is an enforcement tool that is needed to be applied and reviews and audits done.

Excessive taxation will lead to public defiance at a certain point just as a matter of fact. Because of that any government should be careful and look for that and adjust as needed. Tobacco and alcohol taxes are a simple example, at a certain point the black market (there is always a black market for most anything) grows to a point where it outstrips the "legal markets" and becomes the defacto true market for the item(s). This is what must be avoided for any society to have an effective and functioning government. We see it around the world where markets become detached and governments are not effective and instead are just money grabs for an elite few. Black markets are always a counter balance to the government and need to be there, and the smaller the black market, in general means the government level of taxation and regulation etc. is

Tugg

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