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NIKV69
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Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:55 pm

Let's keep it going.

I believe we should be able to own guns. I own a shotgun and semi auto rifle. If you want to discuss a law against fully automatic rifles I am open to that I am not a fan of bump stocks for I feel you shouldn't be able to alter a firearm. Feel we should have background checks across the board and getting rid of under the table guns sales at shows without a background check wouldn't bother me. We need to know who is purchasing guns.

Discuss.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:09 pm

How do feel about background checks on inherited firearms? Because you really can’t enforce it. Altering guns is fine, I own several custom firearms, many shotguns have a variety of alterations. My 12 gauge carrier barrel can shoot, 20, 28 and 410 shells with tubes.

The gun show exemption is mostly BS, because any transfer involving an FFL must be recorded, NICS checked and the buyer complete an ATF 4473.
 
extender
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:15 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The gun show exemption is mostly BS, because any transfer involving an FFL must be recorded, NICS checked and the buyer complete an ATF 4473.


This. At least in Florida, there is no loophole. All sales require a background check ($5.00. If you pass and have a CCW, you can take your purchase with you. If you do NOT have a CCW, you have to wait 5 business days.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:20 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
many shotguns have a variety of alterations. My 12 gauge carrier barrel can shoot, 20, 28 and 410 shells with tubes.
.


Limiting the amount of shells isn't really altering the way the firearm was made. My Mossberg has the capacity limited to 3 or 4 shells with that dowel or whatever is in there but I can take it out. It's still the pump action it was made to be. I just don't like making a gun auto if it was made semi.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
N867DA
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:22 pm

Private gun ownership should be legal, and gun/bullet ownership should be carefully regulated. We should have background checks, waiting periods, and find some method to know who is responsible for each gun in the country (yes, I know there are millions). Breaking these rules should carry very harsh penalties.

There are a lot of cultural issues unique to the US that prevent responsible, 21st century gun policies.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
wingman
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:30 pm

N867DA wrote:
Private gun ownership should be legal, and gun/bullet ownership should be carefully regulated. We should have background checks, waiting periods, and find some method to know who is responsible for each gun in the country (yes, I know there are millions). Breaking these rules should carry very harsh penalties.

There are a lot of cultural issues unique to the US that prevent responsible, 21st century gun policies.


You, me and NIK, on this issue at least, seem to align with the single largest opinion block in the country. Being centrist, able to compromise, adapt to present day conditions and shift positions across the political spectrum on a case by case basis almost sounds insane these days. It's our salvation as a nation but the struggle against extremist hatred and the horrific stupidity it spreads like cancer will be the most serious challenge we've ever confronted. Anyway, what you said above is spot on. Maybe in 20 years or another 6-7 mass gun shooting events with 50+ deaths per..whatever comes first.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:42 pm

There's a video made by Vox on how background checks may not actually be all that effective; some cases still slip through the nets. I DO think they should be made for ALL transactions (private/personal).

The other thing that I think should also be instituted is:
1. Demand licensing to operate arms. This means undergoing rigorous training on how to hold, how to fire, how to secure the arm, maybe some training on aim. Show authorities that you actually were trained and passed a test on basics of firearm ownership and operations.
2. Demand some form of insurance. People who are injured when someone snaps and shoots shouldn't have to foot medical bills on their own or pay for damages. This form of insurance is like car insurance: you wanna drive? then insure your vehicle against damages against it or caused by it.

One of my previous managers has a couple of firearms and one thing he is adamantly against is serial marking of the bullets. While he recognized the benefit, he was upset that the cost of bullets would increase as a result.

And let's be clear here: the whole thing about "I need guns to protect against tyrannical government" is ridiculous:
1. It's not an excuse that everyone can use. A white person can open-carry and no one suspects anything; a black person does it and a SWAT teams needs to be called.
2. When is it actually acceptable to shoot against law enforcement? How do you prove that government has gone so rogue that your firearms are the only thing protecting you? When FDR rounded up Japanese Americans, could they have used their guns against authorities?

I think there is (or should be) agreement that the 2nd amendment needs to be rewritten in a way that clarifies its original intent. What does "well-regulated militia" mean?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
extender
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:56 pm

And just like that, off the rails we go.
 
wingman
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:50 pm

extender wrote:
And just like that, off the rails we go.


A friendly and respectful exchange of ideas would only seem off the rails to an extreme ideologue with severely impaired cognitive function.
 
extender
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:08 pm

No it is not. If people don't understand what the Constitution is and what inalienable rights are, they should break out the coloring books.
 
wingman
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:26 pm

People that don't understand the meaning of the words "amendment" or "interpration" have a severely impaired cognitive function. The constitution can be changed to bring it in line with modern sensibilities and to rectify interpretations that do grievous harm to people and society. This is 5th Grade history stuff. It tells us when you might've thrown in the towel.
 
N867DA
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:52 pm

extender wrote:
No it is not. If people don't understand what the Constitution is and what inalienable rights are, they should break out the coloring books.


How so? Immigrants are supposed to have the same civil rights as natural-born citizens even if they are here illegally because the 14th Amendment says so, but that is clearly not happening. One of our amendments is literally just to repeal another amendment.

There is a mechanism to amend the Constitution and make changes as the world changes. That is why we have been able to keep it so long. I don't agree with repealing the 2nd amendment but there are certainly many ways to interpret it--just like any other amendment. This mentality is exactly the 'cultural issues' I was talking about earlier.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
M564038
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:58 pm

In a sensibly run society, no one needs to own a gun. No one.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:08 pm

The title should include "USA" somewhere.

In my country guns aren't part of politics, they're not mentioned in any platform (well, there used to be a hunter's party so maybe there), there is no serious talk of changing anything.

In fact even googling something in French only gives me stuff about the US, Brazil, and finally at the bottom an association that wants to legalize gun carrying, I had never heard of it. We have a political party for animals but not one for guns.

Outside of cops, there are probably more foreigners carrying guns in France than French people : security details of ambassadors and the like, not covered by French law.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
winginit
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:42 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Let's keep it going.

I believe we should be able to own guns. I own a shotgun and semi auto rifle. If you want to discuss a law against fully automatic rifles I am open to that I am not a fan of bump stocks for I feel you shouldn't be able to alter a firearm. Feel we should have background checks across the board and getting rid of under the table guns sales at shows without a background check wouldn't bother me. We need to know who is purchasing guns.

Discuss.


If we're talking about the United States specifically, where an outright ban is unattainable, I don't see why it should be at all controversial to regulate guns exactly as we do automobiles:

- Vehicles need to be 'street legal' if they are to be operated on any sort of public property, so come up with a standard for guns (there are already many, but draw the line somewhere between slingshot and bazooka)
- You can't operate a vehicle without a license that has to be obtained at or after a certain age
- Once you purchase a vehicle, or even if you purchase it use or inherit it, it has to be registered, and the change of ownership is documented
- Vehicles are restricted to use on either regulated roads or on private land
- Misbehavior or criminal activity can lead to the revoking of a vehicle license, as should be the case with gun ownership

This doesn't seem complicated.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:44 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
many shotguns have a variety of alterations. My 12 gauge carrier barrel can shoot, 20, 28 and 410 shells with tubes.
.


Limiting the amount of shells isn't really altering the way the firearm was made. My Mossberg has the capacity limited to 3 or 4 shells with that dowel or whatever is in there but I can take it out. It's still the pump action it was made to be. I just don't like making a gun auto if it was made semi.


I have a Mossberg shockwave it can shoot the "mini" shells and standard shotgun shells but it actually is considered a firearm not a shotgun and actually to people not familiar it looks illegal like a sawed off shotgun but it is legal due to the type of handle it has on it.
 
JJJ
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:49 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
How do feel about background checks on inherited firearms? Because you really can’t enforce it.


An inheritance is just another form of change of ownership.

Over here the largest source of cheap guns is old people dying whose descendants just aren't interested in guns and don't have a license. Those guns are auctioned at the police station a couple times a year.

Mostly old junk but every now and then there are some good gems to be had.
 
acavpics
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:54 pm

Before we do anything, fund a freaking research institution to carry STUDY THE ROOT CAUSES of gun violence before making any legislation. I'm tired of hearing that gun control alone will make gun violence disappear.

There is more that makes people want to kill each other besides the easy access to guns.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:01 pm

No Automatics, No Bump stocks, and no Large capacity magazines.

The 2nd Amendment was written at a time when the import of Guns and ammunition was one of the reasons for the US Revolutionary war, and when Guns could not click off multiple rounds and be easily modified. We need common sense laws and registrations for these weapons.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
stratosphere
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:05 pm

acavpics wrote:
Before we do anything, fund a freaking research institution to carry STUDY THE ROOT CAUSES of gun violence before making any legislation. I'm tired of hearing that gun control alone will make gun violence disappear.

There is more that makes people want to kill each other besides the easy access to guns.


Exactly . England has plenty of knife killings I would bet way more than we do in the US but not guns. I guess the method of thought is it's harder to kill mass groups of people with a knife as opposed to a gun although people have tried. As long as you have people intent on hurting other people and are violent you will not solve the problems.
 
wingman
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:30 pm

acavpics wrote:
Before we do anything, fund a freaking research institution to carry STUDY THE ROOT CAUSES of gun violence before making any legislation. I'm tired of hearing that gun control alone will make gun violence disappear.

There is more that makes people want to kill each other besides the easy access to guns.


Where did you heard that gun control alone would make gun violence disappear? I've never read nor heard anyone ever say such a thing. But I do agree we should conduct this "Root Causes" study if only to once and for all come to an agreement that the "root causes" are nearly identical all over this world. Every second page of any history book teaches you that. Humans tend to lose their minds quite often and given the opportunity and the means will exercise their insanity. Nothing distinguishes Americans from any other nationality when it comes to gun violence except the sheer number of guns and how easy they are to obtain. They should be more tightly regulated and controlled.
 
acavpics
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:34 pm

Where did you heard that gun control alone would make gun violence disappear? I've never read nor heard anyone ever say such a thing. But I do agree we should conduct this "Root Causes" study if only to once and for all come to an agreement that the "root causes" are nearly identical all over this world. Every second page of any history book teaches you that. Humans tend to lose their minds quite often and given the opportunity and the means will exercise their insanity. Nothing distinguishes Americans from any other nationality when it comes to gun violence except the sheer number of guns and how easy they are to obtain. They should be more tightly regulated and controlled.[/quote]

Look at California, which has the tightest laws in the country, yet has still experienced some of the nations deadliest mass shootings in recent years.
Yes, I know guns can come from other states. But there are still many states with lighter laws but less violence per capita.

This goes to say that there is more to mass homicide than just guns alone.
 
wingman
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 pm

acavpics wrote:
This goes to say that there is more to mass homicide than just guns alone.

Sure, yes. Mental illness is factor, probably the biggest one next to high capacity semi autos. But that was my point, the French and Japanese probably have the same relative rate of mental illness that Americans do. They blow shit up, poison the trains, stab children, mow down pedestrians with big trucks..but no one comes close to our level of regular good 'ol gun death, much less our fantastic rate of mass murder events. It's a crappy thing to be the champion of, like obesity and incarceration. We should try to dial down our excellence in these areas.
 
Redd
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:50 pm

If I lived in the USA I'd want to have a gun.

Would never want to live there again though, and I'm quite comfortable knowing that pretty much no one has guns in Poland, and there are pretty much no shootings.

I also understand that firearms are engrained in the culture of the USA, and it's really none of my business as a non-american. I have my opinion on the matter but I'm quite sure no body cares to hear it...


That being said, there are lots of shooting ranges here and I'm a regular at my local range. Very nice selection of guns to rent, pretty much anything you want. Israeli made uzi, .44's AK's, M16's.... and a lot of stuff I don't know the name of but thry shoot many bullets in a short period of time and rifles that kick like a mule....lol

Guns are a very fun hobby, but I'm also very happy that most of the guns in Poland are in the hands of law enforcement or at the shooting range. Private gun ownership is very heavily regulated here.
 
THS214
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:55 pm

M564038 wrote:
In a sensibly run society, no one needs to own a gun. No one.


Unfortunately that's not reality. So military and police needs to have guns. I agree that civilians should not have guns for something else than hunting. Precision shooting with a 9 mm, have that gun behind locks at the shooting range. Anything else and you are mentally preparing to shoot an other human being.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:00 pm

The title should indeed include the USA, in the Netherlands this is not a political issue at all. In fact, I only know one who owns a gun, he has got a hunting license and thus a gun license. Within an internship setting, I once did some noise measurements at a gun range. It was in a town where I grew up, I never knew we had one in this town of 60.000.

I think the political debate on guns in the US is far too politicized. No sensible debate seems to be possible.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Ken777
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:01 pm

As I recall, the first 4 words of the Second Amendment are "A well regulated Militia". Take the middle two words "well regulated" and you have a standard that moderate Americans can support, but the gun lobby and manufacturers totally hate. There was even massive resistance to bump stocks after the Las Vegas killings.

I personally believe that we will be unable to bring gun sanity to this country as the money involved and the propaganda saturating the country try will block it.

That leaves only one protection for gun victims - money for treatment. Charge a 10¢ or 25¢ tax per round sold and have that money go directly to a medical fund to provide medical care for victims. Might only be $10K for a simple ER visit, or $50K for intensive surgery and hospital care, or some big time money for long time care.

Right now out medical insurance e premiums are paying for this care, even if we don't own guns. Isn't it time for the users to pay?
 
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fallap
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:01 pm

My opinion. If you want to operate a firearm, join the police or the armed forces, or go hunting.
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
ltbewr
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:05 pm

First of all, properly enforce the existing Federal and State laws as to criminal use of guns. States with the lowest rate of gun murders often have strong laws that in a criminal act 'use a gun - go to jail' including significant sentences in jail. On the Federal level, go after where people buy a gun legally from a dealer in a state with less strict state laws and resell it to someone, in another state with stricter laws usually at a nice profit and too often for criminal use. Have more consistent gun related laws from state to state to limit such sales, who, and how one can buy or possess a gun.

Second, try to limit the sale and possession of military class weapons or non-military versions of them, limit size of bullet magazines, and so on in all states and on the Federal level. Progressively increase the taxes on sales of guns and bullets.

Third, and most difficult, change the culture in the USA as to the need for a gun for 'control', use in criminal ways. End the glorification of gun violence in our media, the use of guns to settle grievances, portray more realistically how much guns damage people physically and mentally, destroy neighborhoods, reduce poverty and police reactions when facing or think they are facing a gun.
 
JJJ
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:18 pm

stratosphere wrote:
acavpics wrote:
Before we do anything, fund a freaking research institution to carry STUDY THE ROOT CAUSES of gun violence before making any legislation. I'm tired of hearing that gun control alone will make gun violence disappear.

There is more that makes people want to kill each other besides the easy access to guns.


Exactly . England has plenty of knife killings I would bet way more than we do in the US but not guns.


They don't. England homicide rate (all causes) is 4-5 times lower than that of the US (all causes, but mostly gun).
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:29 pm

M564038 wrote:
In a sensibly run society, no one needs to own a gun. No one.


Not even to shoot clay targets? What’s a “sensibly run” nation? Seems just about not one are sensibly run as guns are around everywhere, even in the UK (very active shooting sports).
 
NIKV69
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:30 pm

M564038 wrote:
In a sensibly run society, no one needs to own a gun. No one.


In a perfect world yes but in a world with rapists, thieves, gang members and murderers your comment does not hold up.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:32 pm

Ken777 wrote:
As I recall, the first 4 words of the Second Amendment are "A well regulated Militia". Take the middle two words "well regulated" and you have a standard that moderate Americans can support, but the gun lobby and manufacturers totally hate. There was even massive resistance to bump stocks after the Las Vegas killings.

I personally believe that we will be unable to bring gun sanity to this country as the money involved and the propaganda saturating the country try will block it.

That leaves only one protection for gun victims - money for treatment. Charge a 10¢ or 25¢ tax per round sold and have that money go directly to a medical fund to provide medical care for victims. Might only be $10K for a simple ER visit, or $50K for intensive surgery and hospital care, or some big time money for long time care.

Right now out medical insurance e premiums are paying for this care, even if we don't own guns. Isn't it time for the users to pay?


I have no problem with a perp who shoots someone paying compensation. I have a HUGE problem paying for the crimes or idiocy of others. And, so should you, unless you believe in collective guilt.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:40 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
In a sensibly run society, no one needs to own a gun. No one.


In a perfect world yes but in a world with rapists, thieves, gang members and murderers, your comment does not hold up.


So each and every member of society should carry a gun? What exactly are you saying here? Which causality are you trying to prove with this statement?

If your statement would be true, wouldn't the US be one of the safest societies?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Ken777
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:04 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Right now out medical insurance e premiums are paying for this care, even if we don't own guns. Isn't it time for the users to pay?


I have no problem with a perp who shoots someone paying compensation. I have a HUGE problem paying for the crimes or idiocy of others. And, so should you, unless you believe in collective guilt.[/quote]

First: Normally perps will not have the money to pay for care of their victims, especially when a quick ER visit for a minor will blow past A$1,000 with ease.

Then, while you may have a "HUGE problem paying for the crimes or idiocy of others" the reality is that both of us are paying big bucks right now, but for collective guilt victim's health care. Even when the victim has health insurance the collective costs for insured victims goes directly to increasing or insurance premiums. I find it hard to believe you support that.
 
marcelh
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
In a sensibly run society, no one needs to own a gun. No one.


In a perfect world yes but in a world with rapists, thieves, gang members and murderers, your comment does not hold up.


So each and every member of society should carry a gun? What exactly are you saying here? Which causality are you trying to prove with this statement?

If your statement would be true, wouldn't the US be one of the safest societies?

This.
Europe isn’t a perfect world but I’ve never been in places where a gun was needed for personal protection.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:02 am

winginit wrote:
If we're talking about the United States specifically, where an outright ban is unattainable, I don't see why it should be at all controversial to regulate guns exactly as we do automobiles:

- Vehicles need to be 'street legal' if they are to be operated on any sort of public property, so come up with a standard for guns (there are already many, but draw the line somewhere between slingshot and bazooka)
- You can't operate a vehicle without a license that has to be obtained at or after a certain age
- Once you purchase a vehicle, or even if you purchase it use or inherit it, it has to be registered, and the change of ownership is documented
- Vehicles are restricted to use on either regulated roads or on private land
- Misbehavior or criminal activity can lead to the revoking of a vehicle license, as should be the case with gun ownership

This doesn't seem complicated.


It shouldn't be that hard to, but i fear that it is impossible to do something about it in the polarised US political climate.

However, from a European (Swedish) point of view, there is a bit of gun law debate but not that much. And in Sweden on average every 5th citizen has a gun (so much for the socialists wanting to take your guns), mostly hunters. The figures for Norway and Finland are similar. In fact, in Norway where every 4th citizen has a gun on average, the police doesn't even carry guns normally.

So how do gun laws work? You need a reason to buy a gun, such as hunting or sport shooting. And a license, and the guns have to be registred. The license can be revoked for different reasons, usually either medical reasons or if convicted of a crime (doesn't have to be a gun-related crime). There are also strict laws on storage and transportation, they need to be stored in an approved locker that is bolted to the wall so that children can't get hold of them and reduce the risk of them being stolen. All in all it works pretty well I'd say and there are maybe some ideas that could work in the US as well. But it seems like the NRA thinks even requiring guns to be stored in a locked cabinet is tyrrany, so I don't think anything will change soon. (Although the NRA's position can lead to them being taken less seriously in the future.)

wingman wrote:
but no one comes close to our level of regular good 'ol gun death, much less our fantastic rate of mass murder events. It's a crappy thing to be the champion of, like obesity and incarceration. We should try to dial down our excellence in these areas.


Wasn't it the current US president who said something like "There will be so much win you will get tired of winning"?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:53 am

Dodge City 1900 sorts of gun regulations. Supreme Court had no objections.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
astuteman
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:38 pm

stratosphere wrote:
acavpics wrote:
Before we do anything, fund a freaking research institution to carry STUDY THE ROOT CAUSES of gun violence before making any legislation. I'm tired of hearing that gun control alone will make gun violence disappear.

There is more that makes people want to kill each other besides the easy access to guns.


Exactly . England has plenty of knife killings I would bet way more than we do in the US but not guns. I guess the method of thought is it's harder to kill mass groups of people with a knife as opposed to a gun although people have tried. As long as you have people intent on hurting other people and are violent you will not solve the problems.


This post has got to contravene a forum regulation somewhere - "I would bet way more than we do in the USA?"
Do some research for heaven's sake..

2017 - 11,006 Gun deaths in the USA - 3.5 per 100,000

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... able-8.xls

Mar 2017 - Mar 2018 - 29 (yes, twenty nine) gun deaths in England and Wales - 0.05 per 100,000)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47156957

2017 - 1,609 stabbing deaths in the USA - 0.5 per 100,000

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... able-8.xls

Mar 2017 - Mar 2018 - 285 stabbing deaths in England and Wales - 0.48 per 100,000)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47156957

So No.
UK per capita knife deaths are LOWER than the USA, not by much , but they are.
Contrary to the Trumpist "blood all over the floors" falsehoods.

We just don't shoot people because we don't carry any guns - they're just not a thing in nearly every other country in the world outside of the USA
And we certainly don't murder people in the 10's of thousands like the USA does.
Do your homework.....

Rgds
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7455
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:26 pm

Ken777 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Right now out medical insurance e premiums are paying for this care, even if we don't own guns. Isn't it time for the users to pay?


I have no problem with a perp who shoots someone paying compensation. I have a HUGE problem paying for the crimes or idiocy of others. And, so should you, unless you believe in collective guilt.


First: Normally perps will not have the money to pay for care of their victims, especially when a quick ER visit for a minor will blow past A$1,000 with ease.

Then, while you may have a "HUGE problem paying for the crimes or idiocy of others" the reality is that both of us are paying big bucks right now, but for collective guilt victim's health care. Even when the victim has health insurance the collective costs for insured victims goes directly to increasing or insurance premiums. I find it hard to believe you support that.[/quote]

There’s the problem with socializing risk, whether thru private insurers or public funds—moral hazard. If a perp shoots another perp in a drug deal gone bad, why is it my or your responsibility? If a drive by shooting in Chicago injuries a innocent person on the street, fine, society failed that victim. When people bring on their own bad outcomes, don’t socialize it.

A just society rewards good behavior and, at least, doesn’t support bad behavior.
 
N965UW
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:31 pm

Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:13 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
2. Demand some form of insurance. People who are injured when someone snaps and shoots shouldn't have to foot medical bills on their own or pay for damages. This form of insurance is like car insurance: you wanna drive? then insure your vehicle against damages against it or caused by it.


This discriminates against poor people. So exercising a constitutional right should be limited to the privileged few who can afford insurance? Sounds oddly similar to a poll tax.

"People who are injured when someone snaps and shoots" already have legal remedies against the shooter or their estate. Fixing our broken healthcare system to prevent the medical bills is a separate conversation. Adding gun insurance to the mix would make this country even more litigious than it already is.

casinterest wrote:
The 2nd Amendment was written at a time when the import of Guns and ammunition was one of the reasons for the US Revolutionary war, and when Guns could not click off multiple rounds and be easily modified. We need common sense laws and registrations for these weapons.


And the 1st Amendment was written at a time when people communicated using quill pens and parchment. Since the Founders could not possibly have imagined the internet, we should all get off A.net. We need common-sense laws against Airbus vs. Boeing and 757 MAX threads! :lol:
You can always go around
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:20 am

stratosphere wrote:

I have a Mossberg shockwave it can shoot the "mini" shells and standard shotgun shells but it actually is considered a firearm not a shotgun and actually to people not familiar it looks illegal like a sawed off shotgun but it is legal due to the type of handle it has on it.


Very interesting! I like it!
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7455
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:34 am

stratosphere wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
many shotguns have a variety of alterations. My 12 gauge carrier barrel can shoot, 20, 28 and 410 shells with tubes.
.


Limiting the amount of shells isn't really altering the way the firearm was made. My Mossberg has the capacity limited to 3 or 4 shells with that dowel or whatever is in there but I can take it out. It's still the pump action it was made to be. I just don't like making a gun auto if it was made semi.


I have a Mossberg shockwave it can shoot the "mini" shells and standard shotgun shells but it actually is considered a firearm not a shotgun and actually to people not familiar it looks illegal like a sawed off shotgun but it is legal due to the type of handle it has on it.


How is a shotgun NOT a firearm?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7455
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:38 am

casinterest wrote:
No Automatics, No Bump stocks, and no Large capacity magazines.

The 2nd Amendment was written at a time when the import of Guns and ammunition was one of the reasons for the US Revolutionary war, and when Guns could not click off multiple rounds and be easily modified. We need common sense laws and registrations for these weapons.


You do know that full automatics have been outlawed since 1937, requiring a Federal permit, don’t you? Any magazine feed firearm can be reloaded very quickly, so there’s no point to banning “large capacity”magazines. And where do you draw the line at the number of rounds carried?
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8652
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Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:00 am

N965UW wrote:
This discriminates against poor people. So exercising a constitutional right should be limited to the privileged few who can afford insurance? Sounds oddly similar to a poll tax.

1. If you are poor, chances are guns are not the sort of thing you're thinking about acquiring right away. If so, then your priorities are messed up and deserve to remain poor.
2. Many things discriminate against poor people: car registrations/insurance, sales taxes, sin taxes...some of these can and should be addressed. A poor person still needs to buy food and requires a car if they live in an area with a poor public transportation system. A gun? See point 1.
3. Every right carries responsibility and no right is absolute. Free Speech means you can say whatever the hell you want; it does not free you from the consequences of what you said. The right to bear arms doesn't mean the right to parade them around or shoot at random (and try pointing or shooting at law enforcement or a government official while yelling "2nd Amendment"), and there is certainly a benefit to society if every gun owner had evidence of training and protection in the off chance their weapon hit the wrong target.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7455
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Political Position (Guns)

Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:26 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
N965UW wrote:
This discriminates against poor people. So exercising a constitutional right should be limited to the privileged few who can afford insurance? Sounds oddly similar to a poll tax.

1. If you are poor, chances are guns are not the sort of thing you're thinking about acquiring right away. If so, then your priorities are messed up and deserve to remain poor.
2. Many things discriminate against poor people: car registrations/insurance, sales taxes, sin taxes...some of these can and should be addressed. A poor person still needs to buy food and requires a car if they live in an area with a poor public transportation system. A gun? See point 1.
3. Every right carries responsibility and no right is absolute. Free Speech means you can say whatever the hell you want; it does not free you from the consequences of what you said. The right to bear arms doesn't mean the right to parade them around or shoot at random (and try pointing or shooting at law enforcement or a government official while yelling "2nd Amendment"), and there is certainly a benefit to society if every gun owner had evidence of training and protection in the off chance their weapon hit the wrong target.


It’s estimated by the NSSF that there are 5 million new gun owners this year, especially women and black men.

https://www.nssf.org/first-time-gun-buy ... n-in-2020/
 
SL1200MK2
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:00 pm

Re: Political Position (Guns)

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:31 am

I have never personally held a gun or even seen one that didn’t belong to a cop or military member. In fact, none of my friends own guns and we all live in cities and have never been robbed, raped etc. We must just be super duper lucky.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Political Position (Guns)

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:11 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
No Automatics, No Bump stocks, and no Large capacity magazines.

The 2nd Amendment was written at a time when the import of Guns and ammunition was one of the reasons for the US Revolutionary war, and when Guns could not click off multiple rounds and be easily modified. We need common sense laws and registrations for these weapons.


You do know that full automatics have been outlawed since 1937, requiring a Federal permit, don’t you? Any magazine feed firearm can be reloaded very quickly, so there’s no point to banning “large capacity”magazines. And where do you draw the line at the number of rounds carried?



I like the idea of having to reload them. Gives the good guy with a gun, or an innocent bystander a chance to tackle these shooters.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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casinterest
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Political Position (Guns)

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:12 pm

N965UW wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The 2nd Amendment was written at a time when the import of Guns and ammunition was one of the reasons for the US Revolutionary war, and when Guns could not click off multiple rounds and be easily modified. We need common sense laws and registrations for these weapons.


And the 1st Amendment was written at a time when people communicated using quill pens and parchment. Since the Founders could not possibly have imagined the internet, we should all get off A.net. We need common-sense laws against Airbus vs. Boeing and 757 MAX threads! :lol:


The first amendment is not about a killing machine.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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seb146
Posts: 23490
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Political Position (Guns)

Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:54 pm

We have a "sanctuary gun" ballot proposal in our county. It makes no sense other than a select few want open carry all the time for any weapon they want. If we would simply enforce current gun laws, things would work. Isn't that what Republicans keep saying? Well, enforce current gun laws instead of letting people do whatever they want because the Second Amendment is, for some reason, the only law we need to care about. We need to stop ignoring the first four words of the Second Amendment. If you are part of "a well regulated militia" then your rights "shall not be infringed". How difficult is that to understand and enforce?

And, by "a well regulated militia" we do not mean these thugs who storm government buildings with weapons strapped all over their bodies. They are simply bullies and thugs.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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