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casinterest
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Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:40 pm

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/ ... 702429001/
Lundskow said this divide between conservative and progressive Christians based on their view of God is a point of division within the faith in terms of political support.

The professor explained that those who see God as punitive tend to support Trump, saying they see him as strong-willed for the way he attacks opponents and "punishes" people for being poor. Lundskow added that Christians who view God as loving and forgiving tend to be more liberal and progressive, welcoming immigrants and "seeking social justice" for the poor.



Please read the article first.


This article invokes an interesting item for those that still go to Church, or for those outside of religion , your own view on morality and the politics you may generally go for,

Do you see a higher power in your religion or your moral center of the world as a whole as
A. Punitive and vengeful?
B: Loving and Forgiving?
C: Other?

My own beliefs are a bit strained, but from the time of my youth , I always saw it as below.
I see that God and people are Loving and Forgiving,.

Does that form your political view?
Does Punitive and vengeful = Conservatism?
Does Loving and Forgiving =Liberal?
C: Other-=Libertarian?

For me, I definitely fall on the Liberal side socially.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:52 pm

casinterest wrote:
[...]
Do you see a higher power in your religion or your moral center of the world as a whole as
A. Punitive and vengeful?
B: Loving and Forgiving?
C: Other?
[...]

Does Punitive and vengeful = Conservatism?
Does Loving and Forgiving =Liberal?
C: Other-=Libertarian?
[...]


1.) I see a higher power in my religion: It is humans and our ability to rise above and see beyond. The power of humanity and people to work together and create a better future even after/in spite of terrible things.
2.) People are in general loving and good, more so than the opposite. This is why humanity has progressed as far as it has. You/we succeed cooperatively, by working together in common bond to make our lives better (selfish interest leads to cooperative effort). People cannot and do not succeed alone.
3.) Forgiveness does not matter. It's nice, on both sides of whatever issue, it relieves very real burdens. But you can't force it, it won't always be given and time only moves forward. So we must persist regardless of our state of grace or being "forgiven our trespasses".
4.) C: Other = Think and care (put effort into both) and move forward. (This is my idea of the "moral center" of the world. Doesn't mean "morals" as so many seem to want to imagine them, as something created and enforced by some non-human power that exists outside of humans.)

But that's me. Don't know if that answers the question though.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:10 pm

Just another way to say that all people interpret and project religion differently depending on their views on society.

There are as many religions and Gods as there are religious people...
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DaveTheRave5
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:33 pm

interesting article, think I agree with half of what the chap said ;)
 
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Aesma
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:26 pm

The problem for conservatives is that Jesus was so obviously a left wing guy they reach cognitive dissonance and have to go back to the old testament. They're basically Jewish.
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c933103
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:27 pm

As an areligious person I cannot answer
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:23 pm

The Christian Bible is big enough that anyone can twist ti to mean whatever they want it to mean, to serve whatever purpose they have. Just look at the Bible believer's on both sides of the US Civil War (the one in the 1800's to be specific)..
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Tugger
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:23 pm

c933103 wrote:
As an areligious person I cannot answer

Isn't ^that^ in itself an answer? :scratchchin:

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
bhill
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:46 pm

So, what about Atheists? They vote...and why does Christianity get to trump anything? I do not need the human dogma to live by the Golden Rule. And it seems to me the only folks that think God is punitive are the folks living by the Old Testament, when the new Covenant tossed that out. Christ was not punitive, the authors of the New Testament wrote he was redemptive. Anyway, the 1st Amendment is being blithely ignored....
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casinterest
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:35 pm

bhill wrote:
So, what about Atheists? They vote...and why does Christianity get to trump anything? I do not need the human dogma to live by the Golden Rule. And it seems to me the only folks that think God is punitive are the folks living by the Old Testament, when the new Covenant tossed that out. Christ was not punitive, the authors of the New Testament wrote he was redemptive. Anyway, the 1st Amendment is being blithely ignored....



This article invokes an interesting item for those that still go to Church,
or for those outside of religion , your own view on morality and the politics you may generally go for,
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
apodino
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:29 pm

bhill wrote:
So, what about Atheists? They vote...and why does Christianity get to trump anything? I do not need the human dogma to live by the Golden Rule. And it seems to me the only folks that think God is punitive are the folks living by the Old Testament, when the new Covenant tossed that out. Christ was not punitive, the authors of the New Testament wrote he was redemptive. Anyway, the 1st Amendment is being blithely ignored....

I see the old testament being used by non-believers to call out the hypocrisy of many religious believers, and I also see the Old Testament being used by believers as justification for a lot of their own policy beliefs. As a Catholic, my take on the Old testament is that the text of the Old Testament helps us to understand the teachings of the New Testament and why a lot of what happened between Jesus and the Chief Priests happened. However, I also believe that much of what Jesus taught also overrides the same new testament. Furthermore, in my opinion, books like Leviticus had a bunch of rules that were related to cleanliness and hygene at the time, but with advances in all those areas, the rules in Leviticus became obsolete. That being said, the Jewish people would still lean on much of the Old Testament as it makes up the Torah, but do not believe in the message of the New Testament because they do not believe that Christ was the Messiah.

So how does it shape my views. Well I am pro-life on the Abortion issue. I am anti-death penalty. I believe that we all have a right to health care, and if we are willing to work, we all have the right to a good paying job. We have a duty to help the poor. And I also believe there is no sin that is unforgivable.

What I see among Catholic friends of mine is twofold. One is from the field of help the poor and provide good jobs for them. These people tend to overlook issues like Abortion and will typically lean Democrat. The other camp is the staunch pro-life camp, where Abortion is the biggest issue for them, and regardless of other issues, they will never vote for a candidate who supports Abortion. My Wife is from the latter camp, and in my opinion this is the biggest source of untapped voters that the Democrats could reach. If the dems would allow more pro-life candidates to run, they would win these people over and would win every election in a Landslide and the GOP would be completely extinct.
 
Ken777
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:15 pm

I'm selectively punitive - special situations, like Tim McVey.

Politically I'm a moderate, with makes me a loving and forgiving liberal in conservative eyes.

As a moderate I would ask how much it costs to spend, say, $100 million on an infrastructure project. Far less than $100 million if you include all the revenues at all government levels. If you take into consideration the long term revenues you always come out ahead IMHO.

In health I'm a firm believer that private insurance and public health can work together and prefer the combined Aussie system. The key to control. health care costs is to end cost shifting. I've written about that several times here, but can repeat it if needed.

I guess I'm a liberal when I believe that minimum wage should always be at least $1 above poverty level wages. It should also be high enough to motivate spending, which will move some money to the owners/investors.
 
Sokes
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:29 am

Aesma wrote:
The problem for conservatives is that Jesus was so obviously a left wing guy they reach cognitive dissonance and have to go back to the old testament. They're basically Jewish.

I started laughing when I read it. So yes, couldn't agree more.
In Kenia a Christian told me " I don't like that Jesus with his miracles." King David on the other side...
Similar charismatics like the old Testament. It probably fits to their attitude towards education.

God punishes people for being poor? I wonder if the sociology professor got that right. If yes, that's a new interpretation of the sermon of the mount.

I have a hypothesis that dominance and submission is the natural condition of mankind. Only if environment is good can liberal values develop in a society. Any kind of economic hardship and people have a tendency to fall back into their natural condition.
But the natural condition is a curse. I believe it makes people unhappy.

Though a liberal I always defended Trump. That's because I don't find him evil. Bush was a catastrophe. Obama was maybe better, but I can't share the general excitement for him. So I always wondered why people on a.net were so hostile to Trump.
Is it possible that it is more about Trump voters than about Trump?
If so, be happy you got Trump. The next leader of theirs may not be so peaceful.
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:39 am

apodino wrote:
bhill wrote:
So, what about Atheists? They vote...and why does Christianity get to trump anything? I do not need the human dogma to live by the Golden Rule. And it seems to me the only folks that think God is punitive are the folks living by the Old Testament, when the new Covenant tossed that out. Christ was not punitive, the authors of the New Testament wrote he was redemptive. Anyway, the 1st Amendment is being blithely ignored....

I see the old testament being used by non-believers to call out the hypocrisy of many religious believers, and I also see the Old Testament being used by believers as justification for a lot of their own policy beliefs. As a Catholic, my take on the Old testament is that the text of the Old Testament helps us to understand the teachings of the New Testament and why a lot of what happened between Jesus and the Chief Priests happened. However, I also believe that much of what Jesus taught also overrides the same new testament. Furthermore, in my opinion, books like Leviticus had a bunch of rules that were related to cleanliness and hygene at the time, but with advances in all those areas, the rules in Leviticus became obsolete. That being said, the Jewish people would still lean on much of the Old Testament as it makes up the Torah, but do not believe in the message of the New Testament because they do not believe that Christ was the Messiah.

So how does it shape my views. Well I am pro-life on the Abortion issue. I am anti-death penalty. I believe that we all have a right to health care, and if we are willing to work, we all have the right to a good paying job. We have a duty to help the poor. And I also believe there is no sin that is unforgivable.

What I see among Catholic friends of mine is twofold. One is from the field of help the poor and provide good jobs for them. These people tend to overlook issues like Abortion and will typically lean Democrat. The other camp is the staunch pro-life camp, where Abortion is the biggest issue for them, and regardless of other issues, they will never vote for a candidate who supports Abortion. My Wife is from the latter camp, and in my opinion this is the biggest source of untapped voters that the Democrats could reach. If the dems would allow more pro-life candidates to run, they would win these people over and would win every election in a Landslide and the GOP would be completely extinct.



You mean you’re pro-birth and anti-choice.
 
Sokes
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:00 am

From memory Epicurus said:
Evidence of creation suggests that there is a God.
Evidence of suffering suggests that God is not concerned about the individual fate.

While an unbeliever, I do feel touched by the New Testament.

Moral in politics is dubious, for moral demands ethics of the ultimate end.
I try to form my opinions according to evidence. I accept ethics of responsibility.

I believe humans are meant to cooperate. So some social spending is good. One can argue that everyone is self responsible. But I don't think that leads to more happiness for the rich. But to live in a happy society leads to happiness. This is not a moral statement. That is what I believe based on what I observed.

Abortion:
I believe pregnancies caused by rape have to be aborted. I am not keen to have rapists spread their genes.
Other cases:
Maybe those who abort should be sterilized at the same time, both man and woman. Is this punishing towards the adults or loving towards unborn life?
At least it is a compromise.
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tommy1808
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:07 am

Sokes wrote:
Maybe those who abort should be sterilized at the same time, both man and woman. .


either you have the child that you don´t think you can properly raise and feed, or never have a child again?

That is properly one of the crazier ideas....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:22 am

tommy1808 wrote:

either you have the child that you don´t think you can properly raise and feed, or never have a child again?

That is properly one of the crazier ideas....

best regards
Thomas

Agreed.
What about at the second abortion?
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tommy1808
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:28 am

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

either you have the child that you don´t think you can properly raise and feed, or never have a child again?

That is properly one of the crazier ideas....

best regards
Thomas

Agreed.
What about at the second abortion?


it does happen, or somewhat more likely doesn´t.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:40 am

tommy1808 wrote:
it does happen, or somewhat more likely doesn´t.

best regards
Thomas

I meant to ask if you agree to sterilization at the second abortion? Both sexes go into a register at the first abortion.
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tommy1808
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:45 am

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
it does happen, or somewhat more likely doesn´t.

best regards
Thomas

I meant to ask if you agree to sterilization at the second abortion? Both sexes go into a register at the first abortion.


of course not

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
WIederling
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:09 am

Sokes wrote:
From memory Epicurus said:
Evidence of creation suggests that there is a God.

Why?
Evidence of suffering suggests that God is not concerned about the individual fate.

again why: teaching! just teaching!
see: abuse by priests is just "testing the believers"!
While an unbeliever, I do feel touched by the New Testament.


Afaics there is a lot of unattributed Buddhism in what Jesus was reported to have done.
Interesting. concept of a "sane responsible anarchist" :-)

Institutional organization and codifications has nixed as much of that as possible.
( and the "moral majority" of the time posturing as presenting as
all encompassing "catholic" Christianity, pushing most everyone else aside )
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:23 am

WIederling wrote:
Sokes wrote:
From memory Epicurus said:
Evidence of creation suggests that there is a God.

Why?


well.. evidence of creation would point to a creator. From that point on the question is how to define "God".

However, since there is no evidence of creation, the point is kinda moot.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:31 am

WIederling wrote:
Sokes wrote:
From memory Epicurus said:
Evidence of creation suggests that there is a God.

Why?

There is a story of a scientist. He had a model of the planetary system on his table. An atheist friend asked him who built this model. The scientist answered "Nobody, it's there by chance. "

Afaics there is a lot of unattributed Buddhism in what Jesus was reported to have done.
Interesting. concept of a "sane responsible anarchist" :-)

Institutional organization and codifications has nixed as much of that as possible.
( and the "moral majority" of the time posturing as presenting as
all encompassing "catholic" Christianity, pushing most everyone else aside )

I don't understand. Can you expand?
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M564038
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:47 am

No one do abortions because they want to, it is not easy on a womans body.
I believe, no wait, I know science have nailed the limitations on abortions because I have sat there with a 14-16 week fetus in my hand and know what it really looks like. The 12-18 week fetus is not a living, breathing, self-sustaining, thinking mini-human aware of its existence. It is nowhere near that. The mini-dolls and illustrations anti-abortion crazies spread is pure bullshit.

No one is allowed to have an opinion about a woman’s relation with their fetus at that stage, and especially not strangers and their religious feelings.

Yes. Feelings. That is all religion is. It is ok to have them, it is not ok to act on them in a way that impacts other people’s lifes negatively where it no rational reasoning exists.
You should keep your religious feelings far, far away from public life, politics and lawmaking.
You can express them in your house, together with others that have the same strange feelings or for instance through art.
Lots and lots of great art have been created with inspiration from religious feelings!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:28 am

Abortion in the US is poisoned by religion but also by politics. There should be a law banning abortions after the first trimester or something along those lines, like many countries have, with exceptions for special cases (the unborn child has a disability, the pregnancy is killing the mother...). That would sway enough people into the "pro-choice" camp as to extinguish the debate.

I was raised Catholic, am baptised and confirmed, so officially I still am one, and can't be bothered to try to annul it all. I have a Bible somewhere at home, although I can't locate it at the moment. I know I also have a book I was given as a teen by the Church, that contains only the New Testament. In fact from what I can remember from "bible study", we never delved into the old one.
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tommy1808
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:42 am

Aesma wrote:
There should be a law banning abortions after the first trimester or something along those lines


it already has the limit of "viability", which just happens to be around the time the cerebral cortex starts to developed enough to count. If you have that level of brain activity at the other end of your life, you are legally brain dead and life support can be turned of.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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seb146
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:40 pm

This is the problem I have with the Republican party. They scream and whine about morals and family and Christ and Bible and life but support the opposite. My copy of the Bible does not say anything about Jesus being against abortion or locking kids in cages or telling everyone that people on welfare are lazy. He agreed that adultery is bad but not murder worthy. If people want to vote Republican because taxes and budgets, fine. I disagree but fine. I have a huge problem with so-called "Christians" voting for Republicans because of morality and their interpretation of the Bible.
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DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:20 am

It was recently pointed out to me that you cannot hold these three positions, that you can only pick two.
intelligence, extremism, decency
which means if you pick extremism and decency, then you don't have intelligence.
I think that is what we are seeing with this election on both sides of the spectrum, sadly.
 
Sokes
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:21 am

M564038 wrote:
The 12-18 week fetus is not a living, breathing, self-sustaining, thinking mini-human aware of its existence. It is nowhere near that. The mini-dolls and illustrations anti-abortion crazies spread is pure bullshit.

I just read a little in Wikipedia. While nobody knows when a fetus can experience pain, the earliest estimates are second half of pregnancy.
It's not the first time I fell for religious disinformation.

No one is allowed to have an opinion about a woman’s relation with their fetus at that stage, and especially not strangers and their religious feelings.

Suppose there is no moral wrong to abort a pregnency before a certain time. If the mother has the right to decide for abortion, the father must be given the same right.
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tommy1808
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:41 am

Sokes wrote:
Suppose there is no moral wrong to abort a pregnency before a certain time. If the mother has the right to decide for abortion, the father must be given the same right.


any pregnant man already has the same right to get an abortion as a woman does..

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:16 am

If she gets all the rights, she must also get all the responsibility.

Either it's wrong to abort, then it's not a question of anybody's choice, or it isn't wrong. If it isn't wrong and the father does not desire the child, he can't be held responsible for child support.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:21 am

Sokes wrote:
If she gets all the rights, she must also get all the responsibility..


she doesn´t "get" any rights, she already had the right, just like a man, to make choices about her body.
They guy can also apply for custody and she would have to pay child support, so that is also perfectly equal.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:28 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
If she gets all the rights, she must also get all the responsibility..


she doesn´t "get" any rights, she already had the right, just like a man, to make choices about her body.
They guy can also apply for custody and she would have to pay child support, so that is also perfectly equal.

best regards
Thomas

Case1: He doesn't want custody for he doesn't want the child.
It's her body. It's none of his business. Unless of course a woman can't abort if the father objects.

Case 2: He wants custody
Whatever non arbitrary rules the government decides, in 50% of cases the man has to get custody, the woman has to pay.
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tommy1808
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:41 am

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
If she gets all the rights, she must also get all the responsibility..


she doesn´t "get" any rights, she already had the right, just like a man, to make choices about her body.
They guy can also apply for custody and she would have to pay child support, so that is also perfectly equal.

best regards
Thomas

Case1: He doesn't want custody for he doesn't want the child.
It's her body. It's none of his business. Unless of course a woman can't abort if the father objects.


for biological reasons he has to make that decision before sleeping with a woman. Why would a man have any say about what a woman does or doesn´t do with her body? If he tries to do that during sex, that is called "rape".

Case 2: He wants custody
Whatever non arbitrary rules the government decides, in 50% of cases the man has to get custody, the woman has to pay.


can´t cut the baby in half, so that is how it turns out....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:49 am

tommy1808 wrote:
for biological reasons he has to make that decision before sleeping with a woman. Why would a man have any say about what a woman does or doesn´t do with her body? If he tries to do that during sex, that is called "rape".

best regards
Thomas

The man isn't concerned about her body, but about the baby in it. Unless you consider the baby part of her body. In this case I'm back at "none of his business".
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:52 am

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
for biological reasons he has to make that decision before sleeping with a woman. Why would a man have any say about what a woman does or doesn´t do with her body? If he tries to do that during sex, that is called "rape".

best regards
Thomas

The man isn't concerned about her body, but about the baby in it. Unless you consider the baby part of her body. In this case I'm back at "none of his business".


Child support is a right of the offspring, not its custody having parent´s. So neither has the right to sign the child´s rights away. The child to be doesn´t have any more right to control its prospect mothers body than the man has.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:04 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Child support is a right of the offspring, not its custody having parent´s. So neither has the right to sign the child´s rights away. The child to be doesn´t have any more right to control its prospect mothers body than the man has.

best regards
Thomas

So one can't expect a women to bear the financial and other responsibilities of an unwanted pregnancy. However for a man that's bearable?

I believe in the emancipation of man, so I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree.
 
Sokes
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:14 pm

There is one more problem:
If the child is to be considered part of the woman's body, how to prohibit abortion shortly before birth?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13745
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:06 pm

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Child support is a right of the offspring, not its custody having parent´s. So neither has the right to sign the child´s rights away. The child to be doesn´t have any more right to control its prospect mothers body than the man has.

best regards
Thomas

So one can't expect a women to bear the financial and other responsibilities of an unwanted pregnancy. However for a man that's bearable?


i see no difference between the two, financial and other responsibilities are identical for both. Those responsibilities only arise with live birth.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:28 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Child support is a right of the offspring, not its custody having parent´s. So neither has the right to sign the child´s rights away. The child to be doesn´t have any more right to control its prospect mothers body than the man has.

best regards
Thomas

So one can't expect a women to bear the financial and other responsibilities of an unwanted pregnancy. However for a man that's bearable?


i see no difference between the two, financial and other responsibilities are identical for both. Those responsibilities only arise with live birth.

best regards
Thomas

Are you trying to convince me or are you trying to win the argument?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13745
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:30 pm

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
So one can't expect a women to bear the financial and other responsibilities of an unwanted pregnancy. However for a man that's bearable?


i see no difference between the two, financial and other responsibilities are identical for both. Those responsibilities only arise with live birth.

best regards
Thomas

Are you trying to convince me or are you trying to win the argument?


just pointing out the fault in your logic. The man doesn´t have to pay child support during the pregnancy, nor do they have any responsibilities before birth. Neither does the woman.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18251
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:02 pm

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

either you have the child that you don´t think you can properly raise and feed, or never have a child again?

That is properly one of the crazier ideas....

best regards
Thomas

Agreed.
What about at the second abortion?

I'd support that, especially for men. The abortion debate would be over in a nanosecond and they'd be available at ATM on demand.

Prolife is what evangelicals decided to pivot to when they couldn't get what they really wanted/still want: pro segregation.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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seb146
Posts: 22787
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:33 pm

Sokes wrote:
M564038 wrote:
No one is allowed to have an opinion about a woman’s relation with their fetus at that stage, and especially not strangers and their religious feelings.

Suppose there is no moral wrong to abort a pregnency before a certain time. If the mother has the right to decide for abortion, the father must be given the same right.


A woman gets pregnant, even with all the protections both can think of, she still does not want to be pregnant but the man decides he wants the pregnancy to carry on to term and raise the baby. What then? It is none of my business because I am not the man in this situation, but if both people disagree on carrying the pregnancy to term, what then? What is the law on this? I am just curious if anyone knows.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
M564038
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:49 pm

The fetus is a part of the woman’s body until birth.
Until birth, the woman is the Patient.

However, smart as we humans are, we can keep several thoughts at once and protect the fetus at the same time.

As for the father... you ejaculate.
If there is a live birth 9 months later, then you have a say. Everything in between is at the Woman’s discretion in accordance with laws that protect the fetus against abortion after a certain limit set by the best knowledge science and medical experience has to offer.
It is all happening within her body, and is not a small matter. The physiology and psychology of a pregnancy can be incredibly complex and dramatic. For the woman in question.

I am not saying it can’t be hard on a father-in-hope to have their sexual partner abort the pregnancy you set in motion with 5 minutes of unique and heartfelt sexual act, but you simply can’t demand control of a woman’s body for 9 months, including risks associated.

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
for biological reasons he has to make that decision before sleeping with a woman. Why would a man have any say about what a woman does or doesn´t do with her body? If he tries to do that during sex, that is called "rape".

best regards
Thomas

The man isn't concerned about her body, but about the baby in it. Unless you consider the baby part of her body. In this case I'm back at "none of his business".
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4423
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:36 pm

If any guy tells his girlfriend/one night stand that he wants a baby all he needs to do is to tell her, and for both of them to see an attorney.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Tugger
Posts: 10898
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:08 am

M564038 wrote:
As for the father... you ejaculate.
If there is a live birth 9 months later, then you have a say. Everything in between is at the Woman’s discretion in accordance with laws that protect the fetus against abortion after a certain limit set by the best knowledge science and medical experience has to offer.
It is all happening within her body, and is not a small matter. The physiology and psychology of a pregnancy can be incredibly complex and dramatic. For the woman in question.

I am not saying it can’t be hard on a father-in-hope to have their sexual partner abort the pregnancy you set in motion with 5 minutes of unique and heartfelt sexual act, but you simply can’t demand control of a woman’s body for 9 months, including risks associated.

While I mostly agree and do understand what you are saying. The reality is that a father actually has more control than you impute. "Everything in between is at the Woman’s discretion" is very much not accurate.

I fully believe and accept that the mother has all right to her body and that any woman must be accorded this, just as men have full rights over their body (obviously there are always some things can intercede based on various circumstances). However, for better or worse there is also a fetus and potential future baby involved and that can and does complicate things.

And finally, no one is "pro-abortion", we all want happily ever after for all involved. But since time immemorial impregnation has been a tool gaining power over populations, when it is imposed or not desired there have to be options for the women involved to counter that.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Sokes
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:36 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Agreed.
What about at the second abortion?

I'd support that, especially for men. The abortion debate would be over in a nanosecond and they'd be available at ATM on demand.

Prolife is what evangelicals decided to pivot to when they couldn't get what they really wanted/still want: pro segregation.

There are no black people opposed to abortion?
Are there no pro life people in countries with homogenous population?

Interesting signature you got.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:48 am

seb146 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Suppose there is no moral wrong to abort a pregnency before a certain time. If the mother has the right to decide for abortion, the father must be given the same right.


A woman gets pregnant, even with all the protections both can think of, she still does not want to be pregnant but the man decides he wants the pregnancy to carry on to term and raise the baby. What then? It is none of my business because I am not the man in this situation, but if both people disagree on carrying the pregnancy to term, what then? What is the law on this? I am just curious if anyone knows.

Whatever I argue, I'm really not sure what to think. But one can try different positions and consider the consequences. That's an exercise in logic, not in moral. The moral is in the original assumptions of the position.

Different positions lead to different dilemmas. It is a difficult topic.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13745
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:40 am

Tugger wrote:
However, for better or worse there is also a fetus and potential future baby involved and that can and does complicate things.


slippery slope all the way to prosecuting women as murderers for a miscarriage ... as is happening where abortion laws are strick enough.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13397
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Religion/Moral views and Politics.

Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:45 am

Tugger wrote:
And finally, no one is "pro-abortion", we all want happily ever after for all involved. But since time immemorial impregnation has been a tool gaining power over populations, when it is imposed or not desired there have to be options for the women involved to counter that.

Tugg


We're seven billions, making our lives more and more difficult, and extinguishing other species at a fast pace, so I'm pro-abortion.

Free and easy access to abortions should be a top political priority everywhere.
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