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L410Turbolet
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Re: Political Position (Med Assisted Suicide)

Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:38 pm

seb146 wrote:
I, personally, will not ever take antidepressants. I do not trust their side effects and how they ultimately effect the brain.

Prognosis for pancreatic cancer patients is so disheartening that concerns about long term effects are not a priority.

seb146 wrote:
I was asking the question how antidepressants make people cope even with those people knowing they will die shortly?

I tried to answer: From my limited experience of three cases within 4 years they do help, to an extent. An outsider's observation.
 
Sokes
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Re: Political Position (Med Assisted Suicide)

Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:09 am

moo wrote:
... but its also pretty darn common to find that the financial EPOA refuses any treatment or care which sees their inheritance diminished - they would rather see their relation live in a poorer state, foregoing treatments or luxuries such as an en suite room for the sake of some more money after their death.

What is EPOA?

I know of a man with IIRC dementia. He had a house in Munich. The wife and only son had already died, but there were IIRC four grandchildren. The nursing home somehow managed to use up a good part of the value of the house by giving him all kind of treatments. And how to check if the massage was really 40 min?
So a man denies himself holidays, restaurant visits (and whatever else savers cut down on) all his life in order to finance a few years of questionable life quality?
I would want my child or later grandchildren to have a secure life. I can do without the last three years of life with low enjoyment value. I enjoy my life now.

That apart good post. I also believe relatives can't decide. The doctor has to make a call.
Obviously one has to ensure that doctors can't be pressurized by hospital management that treatment is extended for financial gain.

Maybe doctors a few years before retirement should be called for the cases in question.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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moo
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Re: Political Position (Med Assisted Suicide)

Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:22 am

Sokes wrote:
moo wrote:
... but its also pretty darn common to find that the financial EPOA refuses any treatment or care which sees their inheritance diminished - they would rather see their relation live in a poorer state, foregoing treatments or luxuries such as an en suite room for the sake of some more money after their death.

What is EPOA?


Enduring Power of Attorney.
 
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moo
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Re: Political Position (Med Assisted Suicide)

Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:29 am

Sokes wrote:
I know of a man with IIRC dementia. He had a house in Munich. The wife and only son had already died, but there were IIRC four grandchildren. The nursing home somehow managed to use up a good part of the value of the house by giving him all kind of treatments. And how to check if the massage was really 40 min?
So a man denies himself holidays, restaurant visits (and whatever else savers cut down on) all his life in order to finance a few years of questionable life quality?
I would want my child or later grandchildren to have a secure life. I can do without the last three years of life with low enjoyment value. I enjoy my life now.


The things my wife sees are things like patients being denied moisturising cream to relieve dry skin which is causing itchiness etc because the patients family doesn't want to spend $10 on it, or a person with irritable bowel and restricted movement having to live in a ward and go in a pan in front of everyone else.

The things that people will do to their relatives just so they get to inherit that little bit more money is quiet eye opening when you see it from the side of the care homes.
 
Sokes
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Re: Political Position (Med Assisted Suicide)

Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:02 am

moo wrote:
The things my wife sees are things like patients being denied moisturising cream to relieve dry skin which is causing itchiness etc because the patients family doesn't want to spend $10 on it, or a person with irritable bowel and restricted movement having to live in a ward and go in a pan in front of everyone else.

The things that people will do to their relatives just so they get to inherit that little bit more money is quiet eye opening when you see it from the side of the care homes.

Yes, the cream example is shocking.

I have a working class friend in India. He lives far from me, we see maybe twice a year. He always wants to help others. But he is not in a financial position to afford. I saw that one of his tooth got rotten. I gave him 130 $ to get it fixed and insisted that the money is used specifically for this purpose. I told him I will check it.
Next time I saw him the tooth got worse. He told me his mother got high diabetis. He spent the money for the hospital.
This friend has brothers. He used to live with his family in his parents' home. But there was a brother with two children in the same house who never bought food. Similar if my friend wanted to buy colour pencils for his two children, two more children of the brother would also use them. Finally that friend left the house. His brother remained.

When the blood sugar of the mother rose to dangerous levels the leisure minded brother took his wife and children and went to his wife's mother.

My friend belongs to a minority group where the house is inherited by the youngest brother, which means the useless guy. I said to my friend that his parents have a house. If they rely only on him they should transfer the house in his name. Otherwise they should sell their house.

I believe the mother would rather die than sell her house. Property in the West is personal possession, but in other cultures it is to be passed from generation to generation. And she is right. Their family background is poor. Why to destroy the little bit of security she can pass along? Her life won't become very enjoyable again. But then I find it annoying that she takes all money from one son who struggles himself financially.

So what is the value of life?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: Political Position (Med Assisted Suicide)

Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:01 am

moo wrote:
Another aspect my wife regularly sees is the patient splitting their EPOA between medical and financial - typically the medical EPOA goes to a daughter or grand daughter, but the financial EPOA goes to a male related to the family.

Pluralism: division of power prevents the worst power abuses. So that is also true in family settings?

I assume you speak of the US. I further assume there is no obligatory insurance for those who need institutional care.

Does the financial EPOA refer to the patient's bank account or other possessions?
What if the financial EPOA demands all treatments to stop?
Who is to pay if the patient has no money/ house?
And can't doctors overrule decisions, e.g. your cream example?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
mirrodie
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Re: Political Position (Med Assisted Suicide)

Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:05 am

[twoid][/twoid]
NIKV69 wrote:
I am all for it. .... Why is it we humanely put our pets to sleep but we can't decide for ourselves to end our suffering?


Why? Because of the American dollar baby! hate watching family pass on on those final days of morphine drip... all so the for profit hospitals can profit.

Yep, we do treat animals with such dignity. Personal aside, we had to put Alice, the white foster kitty what you met once, to sleep on Halloween. She's resting now with Pinot.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
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moo
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Re: Political Position (Med Assisted Suicide)

Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:19 am

Sokes wrote:
moo wrote:
Another aspect my wife regularly sees is the patient splitting their EPOA between medical and financial - typically the medical EPOA goes to a daughter or grand daughter, but the financial EPOA goes to a male related to the family.

Pluralism: division of power prevents the worst power abuses. So that is also true in family settings?

I assume you speak of the US. I further assume there is no obligatory insurance for those who need institutional care.

Does the financial EPOA refer to the patient's bank account or other possessions?
What if the financial EPOA demands all treatments to stop?
Who is to pay if the patient has no money/ house?
And can't doctors overrule decisions, e.g. your cream example?


In my particular example, its New Zealand and these are private care homes - if you stop paying, you get evicted and go into a government care home if they will have you, or your relatives become responsible for your care. There is end of life funding which covers treatments in government care homes beyond convalescence, but if you are just in private long term care then thats your responsibility.

A financial EPOA covers everything to do with property or finances - if your house needs to be sold for your care, the financial EPOA holder has that power.

If the financial EPOA holder demands treatments stop, then they stop. A doctor in this situation cant give medication that no one is paying for - in a government care home there is a budget, which gets used.

The point here is that even with an EPOA, the money is still the patients, but they have no control over it - and all too often they split the EPOA between finances and care decisions, which creates an impossible situation that the care home is often blamed for by the family, when in fact its the family.

As I said, its astounding and eye opening just what lengths and suffering family will put a relative through just to gain a little more inheritance.
 
Sokes
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Re: Political Position (Med Assisted Suicide)

Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:35 am

@moo:
Thanks for the explanation.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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moo
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Re: Political Position (Med Assisted Suicide)

Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:32 am

mirrodie wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
NIKV69 wrote:
I am all for it. .... Why is it we humanely put our pets to sleep but we can't decide for ourselves to end our suffering?


Why? Because of the American dollar baby! hate watching family pass on on those final days of morphine drip... all so the for profit hospitals can profit.

Yep, we do treat animals with such dignity. Personal aside, we had to put Alice, the white foster kitty what you met once, to sleep on Halloween. She's resting now with Pinot.


Explain the lack of legal euthanasia laws in countries with a socialised healthcare system then - theres no profit in keeping someone alive in, for example, a British NHS hospital, but they do.

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