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ArchGuy1
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Updated: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:27 am

Yesterday, a teacher in Paris was beheaded over a cartoon showing controversial images of the Prophet Mohammed and the incident is being classified as a terror investigation. French President Emmanuel Macron visited the scene and called the event an Islamic terrorist attack. The attacker was shot by police after they tried to arrest him twice. Very sad that someone was decapited over controversial images in an academic setting.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... e-54573356
Last edited by SQ22 on Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title updated after merging threads
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:14 am

His sacrifice is not in vain. Many French Muslims will feel disgusted. Enlightenment will profit.

Having lived in two very different cultures I am a believer in Weltanschauungen. These are incompatible.

A Muslim recently asked me if I have only one child. I joked "Only one child and one wife". He explained to me that a first wife is conventionally chosen. If a second wife is chosen she should be a widow. This way the widow is cared for. I asked him how he would feel if his wife said she wants a second husband.

His facial expression changed. Here I was again. A clash of Weltanschauung.

To escape the situation I started joking:
"I don't believe in religious rules. The Bible says I should poke out my eye if it tempts me to look at other women. As I'm not willing to do it, I decided to follow secular rules. "

(Till today I don't understand what is meant.)

The West has the Weltanschauung that everything is up for discussion.
Thankfully most religious people put common sense above religious law. I haven't yet met an Indian Muslim who wants to chop off the hand of a thief. That's why secular and religious people can compromise and live together. But I believe with orthodox believers no compromise is possible.

Does Iran proof me wrong or does common sense rule in Iran?
Taliban may be a good example. But then I don't consider them orthodox. They rather are sadist.
At least by my limited knowledge derived from reading Khaled Hosseini.

Are those who call themselves orthodox really orthodox?
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Aaron747
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:54 am

Sokes wrote:
His sacrifice is not in vain. Many French Muslims will feel disgusted. Enlightenment will profit.

Having lived in two very different cultures I am a believer in Weltanschauungen. These are incompatible.

A Muslim recently asked me if I have only one child. I joked "Only one child and one wife". He explained to me that a first wife is conventionally chosen. If a second wife is chosen she should be a widow. This way the widow is cared for. I asked him how he would feel if his wife said she wants a second husband.

His facial expression changed. Here I was again. A clash of Weltanschauung.

To escape the situation I started joking:
"I don't believe in religious rules. The Bible says I should poke out my eye if it tempts me to look at other women. As I'm not willing to do it, I decided to follow secular rules. "

(Till today I don't understand what is meant.)

The West has the Weltanschauung that everything is up for discussion.
Thankfully most religious people put common sense above religious law. I haven't yet met an Indian Muslim who wants to chop off the hand of a thief. That's why secular and religious people can compromise and live together. But I believe with orthodox believers no compromise is possible.

Does Iran proof me wrong or does common sense rule in Iran?
Taliban may be a good example. But then I don't consider them orthodox. They rather are sadist.
At least by my limited knowledge derived from reading Khaled Hosseini.

Are those who call themselves orthodox really orthodox?


Which begs the question: why do burgeoning radicals want to relocate to the west at all?
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:09 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
His sacrifice is not in vain. Many French Muslims will feel disgusted. Enlightenment will profit.

Having lived in two very different cultures I am a believer in Weltanschauungen. These are incompatible.

A Muslim recently asked me if I have only one child. I joked "Only one child and one wife". He explained to me that a first wife is conventionally chosen. If a second wife is chosen she should be a widow. This way the widow is cared for. I asked him how he would feel if his wife said she wants a second husband.

His facial expression changed. Here I was again. A clash of Weltanschauung.

To escape the situation I started joking:
"I don't believe in religious rules. The Bible says I should poke out my eye if it tempts me to look at other women. As I'm not willing to do it, I decided to follow secular rules. "

(Till today I don't understand what is meant.)

The West has the Weltanschauung that everything is up for discussion.
Thankfully most religious people put common sense above religious law. I haven't yet met an Indian Muslim who wants to chop off the hand of a thief. That's why secular and religious people can compromise and live together. But I believe with orthodox believers no compromise is possible.

Does Iran proof me wrong or does common sense rule in Iran?
Taliban may be a good example. But then I don't consider them orthodox. They rather are sadist.
At least by my limited knowledge derived from reading Khaled Hosseini.

Are those who call themselves orthodox really orthodox?


Which begs the question: why do burgeoning radicals want to relocate to the west at all?



For the same reason those radicals moved east AND west in the 7th century—their religion. More seriously, if you had a choice of Paris or Algiers, which would you choose?
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:11 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Yesterday, a teacher in Paris was beheaded over a cartoon showing controversial images of the Prophet Mohammed and the incident is being classified as a terror investigation. French President Emmanuel Macron visited the scene and called the event an Islamic terrorist attack. The attacker was shot by police after they tried to arrest him twice. Very sad that someone was decapited over controversial images in an academic setting.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... e-54573356


The name of the victim is Samuel Paty, a 47 year old History & Geography teacher.

The murderer was 18 year old Abdoullakh Abouyezidovitch A., a Russian refugee of Chechen origin.

On October 7, the father of one of Paty's pupils used Facebook to call for action against Paty, whom he named directly, asking for his dismissal from the school. He had filed a complaint against Paty on October 8 and published a video on YouTube targeting the teacher on October 12, the prosecutor said.

A French judicial source told CNN earlier that the nine people taken in for questioning included the suspect's parents, grandfather and brother.

https://www.dw.com/en/french-knife-atta ... a-55310643

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/17/europe/p ... index.html
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Aesma
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:30 pm

A few weeks ago a young Pakistani attacked the former Charlie Hebdo HQ in Paris and stabbed two, non fatally fortunately.

There is a trial going on right now about the 2015 Charlie Hebdo attack and surrounding events.

To be clear this murder didn't happen in Paris but in the western suburbs of Paris, in Conflans-Sainte-Honorine, about 30Km from Paris, in the Yvelines département (where I also live).

I was thinking about opening a thread about these events, and freedom of speech, as this is what's it about. Our American friends often tout their "unlimited" freedom of speech, yet no mainstream media that I know of (including Fox News) would dare to show these cartoons.
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JJJ
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:56 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
His sacrifice is not in vain. Many French Muslims will feel disgusted. Enlightenment will profit.

Having lived in two very different cultures I am a believer in Weltanschauungen. These are incompatible.

A Muslim recently asked me if I have only one child. I joked "Only one child and one wife". He explained to me that a first wife is conventionally chosen. If a second wife is chosen she should be a widow. This way the widow is cared for. I asked him how he would feel if his wife said she wants a second husband.

His facial expression changed. Here I was again. A clash of Weltanschauung.

To escape the situation I started joking:
"I don't believe in religious rules. The Bible says I should poke out my eye if it tempts me to look at other women. As I'm not willing to do it, I decided to follow secular rules. "

(Till today I don't understand what is meant.)

The West has the Weltanschauung that everything is up for discussion.
Thankfully most religious people put common sense above religious law. I haven't yet met an Indian Muslim who wants to chop off the hand of a thief. That's why secular and religious people can compromise and live together. But I believe with orthodox believers no compromise is possible.

Does Iran proof me wrong or does common sense rule in Iran?
Taliban may be a good example. But then I don't consider them orthodox. They rather are sadist.
At least by my limited knowledge derived from reading Khaled Hosseini.

Are those who call themselves orthodox really orthodox?


Which begs the question: why do burgeoning radicals want to relocate to the west at all?


For the most part they become radicalised here. The normal route is usually problematic youth, petty crime, mostly around drugs and at some point (often in prison) they see the light and find a new cause to fight for.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:25 pm

Aesma wrote:
Our American friends often tout their "unlimited" freedom of speech, yet no mainstream media that I know of (including Fox News) would dare to show these cartoons.

Can you blame them? To that end, I'm not aware of many (if any) mainstream European news outlets who did so. And I can't honestly say if I were a major news anchor or reporter that I would show those cartoons out of fear for my own safety, as much as I am a staunch believer in unfettered free speech. There is such a thing as self-censorship that is independent of government coercion or abridging of speech. Freedom of speech is just as much a cultural feature as it is a legal one.
 
Jetty
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:19 pm

JJJ wrote:
For the most part they become radicalised here. The normal route is usually problematic youth, petty crime, mostly around drugs and at some point (often in prison) they see the light and find a new cause to fight for.

The recent two terrorists in France are children whose family are radical Muslims as well. The terrorist at the old Charlie Hebdo office has a father who said he is proud of him, the beheader of the teacher has family that joined the Islamic State. Both are recent immigrants claiming to be 'refugees'. Europe must accept that young Muslim immigrants can cause a big danger as well and act accordingly. Those who have values that are incompatible with Western values shouldn't be given asylum.
 
M564038
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:47 pm

Several here did. Mainstream newspapers, also shown on TV news when there have been cases surrounding it.

Extreme Religious nutcases on both sides (the christian and islamic) are equally bad, they are working towards destabilizing society, and de-humanize those on «the other side» destroying peace and prosperity for moderate voices and non-believers, which, after all includes almost everybody.


We in the middle should ignore them as far as possible, we should not choose sides, not give them a platform to spew their hate, us-and-them-mentality, racism, glorifications of violence and weapons. Unfortunately, politicians in many countries sees aligning with their chosen religious extremists as useful for them. So it continues.
It has to stop.

flyguy89 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Our American friends often tout their "unlimited" freedom of speech, yet no mainstream media that I know of (including Fox News) would dare to show these cartoons.

Can you blame them? To that end, I'm not aware of many (if any) mainstream European news outlets who did so. And I can't honestly say if I were a major news anchor or reporter that I would show those cartoons out of fear for my own safety, as much as I am a staunch believer in unfettered free speech. There is such a thing as self-censorship that is independent of government coercion or abridging of speech. Freedom of speech is just as much a cultural feature as it is a legal one.
 
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:12 pm

Please keep this on topic and keep the flamebait out of the discussion. Thank you!
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flyguy89
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:39 am

M564038 wrote:
Several here did. Mainstream newspapers, also shown on TV news when there have been cases surrounding it.

On further research, looks like some Mohammed cartoons were indeed shown across several of the main media outlets in the US.
 
Jetty
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:26 pm

France if finally taking vigorous action, among which banning the Collective Against Islamophobia for being an enemy of the republic. :box:

The reaction is predictable, the Collective Against Islamophobia calls the crackdown on Islamism in France ... islamophobic.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/french-police ... 33190.html
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:49 pm

Two Russian MMA fighters' take on the story:
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/10/ ... rts-a71792

Duraev's comment “freedom of speech has lost its beginning in France” is particularly disturbing, and, sadly, probably true:
 
NIKV69
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:55 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Two Russian MMA fighters' take on the story:
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/10/ ... rts-a71792

Duraev's comment “freedom of speech has lost its beginning in France” is particularly disturbing, and, sadly, probably true:


Freedom of speech doesn't automatically mean you insult someone's beliefs. Sure you are free to do it but you are also free to say maybe I shouldn't. Yes religious radicals are a problem but why prod them with a stick. Especially since we have seen this response before. Makes no sense.
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Jetty
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:17 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Two Russian MMA fighters' take on the story:
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/10/ ... rts-a71792

Duraev's comment “freedom of speech has lost its beginning in France” is particularly disturbing, and, sadly, probably true:


Freedom of speech doesn't automatically mean you insult someone's beliefs. Sure you are free to do it but you are also free to say maybe I shouldn't. Yes religious radicals are a problem but why prod them with a stick. Especially since we have seen this response before. Makes no sense.

They should be prod so often they get used to it, that’s what they signed up for when coming to Europe and it happened with Christianity in Western Europe as well. Christians still have their faith but don’t make such a fuss when someone tries to make a joke about them.
Last edited by Jetty on Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:23 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Freedom of speech doesn't automatically mean you insult someone's beliefs. Sure you are free to do it but you are also free to say maybe I shouldn't. Yes religious radicals are a problem but why prod them with a stick. Especially since we have seen this response before. Makes no sense.

I see where you're coming from, and it's a valid argument, but people's beliefs get insulted all the time. Why should some be more protected than others?
 
M564038
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:34 pm

Agreed.
It is the only viable path forward.
Religious feelings does not stand above any other feelings, and certainly not above human rights and freedom of expression.
These are the civilzed, Liberal ideas that the west is built upon, and what stops us from decending into dark ages.


Jetty wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Two Russian MMA fighters' take on the story:
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/10/ ... rts-a71792

Duraev's comment “freedom of speech has lost its beginning in France” is particularly disturbing, and, sadly, probably true:


Freedom of speech doesn't automatically mean you insult someone's beliefs. Sure you are free to do it but you are also free to say maybe I shouldn't. Yes religious radicals are a problem but why prod them with a stick. Especially since we have seen this response before. Makes no sense.

They should be prod so often they get used to it, that’s what they signed up for when coming to Europe and it happened with Christianity in Western Europe as well. Christians still have their fair but don’t make such a fuss when someone tries to make a joke about them.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:36 pm

M564038 wrote:
Several here did. Mainstream newspapers, also shown on TV news when there have been cases surrounding it.


Can you give examples for my information ?

M564038 wrote:
Extreme Religious nutcases on both sides (the christian and islamic) are equally bad, they are working towards destabilizing society, and de-humanize those on «the other side» destroying peace and prosperity for moderate voices and non-believers, which, after all includes almost everybody.

We in the middle should ignore them as far as possible, we should not choose sides, not give them a platform to spew their hate, us-and-them-mentality, racism, glorifications of violence and weapons. Unfortunately, politicians in many countries sees aligning with their chosen religious extremists as useful for them. So it continues.
It has to stop.


Here in France there is a third side, "extreme secularism". Except it isn't extreme, it's mainstream, it is the middle : religions are accepted, but the more hidden the better. That's what is causing a clash with the new forms of Islam, with girls wearing a headscarf etc., which wasn't the case when most of these people's parents/grandparents immigrated here. It doesn't mean that a girl wearing a hijab is an extremist, but it creates an issue already, a clash, a mutual incomprehension.

Where I live, where this happened, the Yvelines department, is considered the "richer" outer suburbs of Paris, with a mix of cities, villages and countryside. It's where famous painters found inspiration, on week-ends away from Paris, or even lived there : Monet, Sisley, Pissaro, Renoir... I've lived all my life here, except for a couple of years in Paris (just next to Charlie Hebdo and the Bataclan...), and the change is obvious, and accelerating. The city next to mine is basically Saudi Arabia. I will leave soon.
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Aesma
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:45 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Two Russian MMA fighters' take on the story:
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/10/ ... rts-a71792

Duraev's comment “freedom of speech has lost its beginning in France” is particularly disturbing, and, sadly, probably true:


Freedom of speech doesn't automatically mean you insult someone's beliefs. Sure you are free to do it but you are also free to say maybe I shouldn't. Yes religious radicals are a problem but why prod them with a stick. Especially since we have seen this response before. Makes no sense.


They will always find a reason to feel offended. In fact several people are in big trouble over this murder, for basically having incited it, by spreading lies on social media. Facebook is also going to have to answer for its inaction.

The teacher asked Muslim students to leave the classroom if they didn't want to be offended, what more could be done ?

In other previous events, several schools had trouble with parents over Christmas trees and the like, even though these here are really secular, nobody is talking to kids in school about Jesus etc.

Food not being halal is another point of contention, I even heard that some parents were asking some money back for school meals because their kids couldn't eat the deserts, as French deserts have alcohol in them (totally false).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:26 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Freedom of speech doesn't automatically mean you insult someone's beliefs. Sure you are free to do it but you are also free to say maybe I shouldn't. Yes religious radicals are a problem but why prod them with a stick. Especially since we have seen this response before. Makes no sense.

My son is hyperactive and therefore hates rosary, which is really more something for people who enjoy meditation. My son and my wife fight nearly daily over it.
But religious people don't restrict themselves to force their views on family members, homosexual rights being the prime example.

Since religious people poke their nose in other people's business, they can't complain over criticism and jokes.
In the 21st century West everything is up for discussion. We have the Middle Ages behind us and I have no willingness to show tollerance to Middle Ages views.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
NIKV69
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:49 pm

Jetty wrote:
They should be prod so often they get used to it, that’s what they signed up for when coming to Europe and it happened with Christianity in Western Europe as well. Christians still have their faith but don’t make such a fuss when someone tries to make a joke about them.


This is a horrible statement. Immigration means you have to deal with ridicule? Not to mention I don't see many news outlets or anyone for that matter mocking Christians' God with cartoons. Like I said some things you should stay away from even with the right to do so. Losing your head isn't worth it.

Braybuddy wrote:
I see where you're coming from, and it's a valid argument, but people's beliefs get insulted all the time. Why should some be more protected than others?


I am not saying they should be protected I am saying better judgement could save a few lives. I mean it's my right to insult overweight people to their face but I choose not to.
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:17 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I am not saying they should be protected I am saying better judgement could save a few lives. I mean it's my right to insult overweight people to their face but I choose not to.

You're giving legitimacy to nutjob terrorists.

NIKV69 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
I don't see many news outlets or anyone for that matter mocking Christians' God with cartoons..

Charlie Hebdo had been sued many times by the Catholic organisations:
https://qz.com/322550/charlie-hebdo-has ... h-muslims/
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:33 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I am not saying they should be protected I am saying better judgement could save a few lives. I mean it's my right to insult overweight people to their face but I choose not to.


I have a sister in law. She got an arranged marriage. Her husband drinks, but doesn't spend on the family. I think he is simply not interested in family. In the West he would have probably not married. But in India such live choices are not acceptable.
Should one blame lack off education and bad economy or religion for it?

Overweight people don't have a habit of telling others how they have to live their lives. So I rather think one has no right to criticize them.

Another question is if Christians should criticize Muslims. Muslims will feel cornered.
I could never force myself to read beyond a few pages of Salman Rushdie. I rather don't like him.
Indeed I wonder how anybody who read a few pages of his books can get upset over him.

But then it makes a big difference if somebody from a Muslim background criticizes or somebody from another group. People like Rushdi deserve protection. Only critical Muslims can bring reforms.

I exclude teachers. If freedom of expression is school topic, cartoons with critical views are appropriate. There should be cartoons for all religions. Obviously children must be able to say when they consider cartoons bad taste. Other children must have the right to ask why.

I also exclude head cover and swimming classes for girls. The West should make clear that Western values take priority over religious commands.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
alfa164
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:47 pm

M564038 wrote:
Extreme Religious nutcases on both sides (the christian and islamic) are equally bad, they are working towards destabilizing society, and de-humanize those on «the other side» destroying peace and prosperity for moderate voices and non-believers, which, after all includes almost everybody.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: . This. . We always want to condemn those of other religions who go to such extremes (i.e., the beheading of this French teacher), but ignore the equally extreme measures of those people of our own predominant religion (i.e., far-right "christians" who murder doctors for performing procedures they don't accept).

There is no "war" between religions; there is a war between people who can think rationally, and those who cannot think for themselves, but who choose to blindly follow dogma instead. The scoundrels and the unscrupulous have hidden behind the cloak of "religion" as often as others; from Jim Jones to Franklin Graham, hucksters and snake-oil salesmen, religion is a front for too many who ply on the weak and gullible.

The fact that this teacher was trying to instill a modicum of critical thinking into his students - and that some parents objected to that - just shows how how divisive this has become. Schools have tried to hard to fill students' minds, rather than open them - and when a teacher tries to open them, this backlash occurs. It is time to rethink our priorities - and, in many cases, our own dogmas - or the divisions, as well as the murders, will continue.


Sokes wrote:
I also exclude head cover and swimming classes for girls. The West should make clear that Western values take priority over religious commands.


There is a fine line here: we do need to respect those sincere religious beliefs, as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. I don't see how head covers cause problems to those who don't were such garments, and swimming classes need not be mandatory for anyone, regardless of religion (or lack of religion, which should be equally respected).

Indeed, disregarding the rights of others - religious and otherwise - is one thing that leads to the divisions that breed extremism.
Last edited by alfa164 on Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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noviorbis77
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:48 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Two Russian MMA fighters' take on the story:
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/10/ ... rts-a71792

Duraev's comment “freedom of speech has lost its beginning in France” is particularly disturbing, and, sadly, probably true:


Freedom of speech doesn't automatically mean you insult someone's beliefs. Sure you are free to do it but you are also free to say maybe I shouldn't. Yes religious radicals are a problem but why prod them with a stick. Especially since we have seen this response before. Makes no sense.


So 2 young gay men in a Western Nation should not kiss in public or hold hands, for fear of offending a religious person who has migrated to a Western nation from the Middle East or Africa?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:01 pm

Charlie Hebdo is anti-establishment. It got created just after the death of General De Gaulle, because the paper where its members worked at (called Hara Kiri) had just been banned by the state for having made a morbid joke about De Gaulle (in truth it was going to get banned anyway). Religions are just one kind of establishment it attacks, and the Catholic and Jewish faiths are regular targets, too.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
M564038
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:23 pm

This is an important point that is often forgotten!

We should protect minorities against racism, we must always protect those that are «weak»er in a society, against forces that are more powerful.
And that goes for muslims as individuals in a lot of western societies.

However, Islam itself, is an immensely large and powerfull world religion and political force which doesn’t need and shouldn’t get any kind of protection, but rather be constantly critiqued and questioned as establishment must.
The same way the vatican or lutheran establishment has for hundreds of years now.

Aesma wrote:
Charlie Hebdo is anti-establishment. It got created just after the death of General De Gaulle, because the paper where its members worked at (called Hara Kiri) had just been banned by the state for having made a morbid joke about De Gaulle (in truth it was going to get banned anyway). Religions are just one kind of establishment it attacks, and the Catholic and Jewish faiths are regular targets, too.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13084
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:55 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Freedom of speech doesn't automatically mean you insult someone's beliefs. Sure you are free to do it but you are also free to say maybe I shouldn't. Yes religious radicals are a problem but why prod them with a stick. Especially since we have seen this response before. Makes no sense.

I see where you're coming from, and it's a valid argument, but people's beliefs get insulted all the time. Why should some be more protected than others?


Islam needs a reformation, Christianity went through it in the 1600’s, it’s about time Islam modernised and reformed.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:01 pm

alfa164 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Extreme Religious nutcases on both sides (the christian and islamic) are equally bad, they are working towards destabilizing society, and de-humanize those on «the other side» destroying peace and prosperity for moderate voices and non-believers, which, after all includes almost everybody.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: . This. . We always want to condemn those of other religions who go to such extremes (i.e., the beheading of this French teacher), but ignore the equally extreme measures of those people of our own predominant religion (i.e., far-right "christians" who murder doctors for performing procedures they don't accept).

Let's not act like these threats are exactly equal, that's just naive. Of course there are Christian religious kooks who have done some terrible things, but by and large, in Western society, you can mock and criticize Christianity with impunity...in fact, it's usually considered cool, just look at some of the most popular programming out there like Family Guy and South Park. The same cannot be said of Islam.
 
M564038
Posts: 486
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:18 pm

Not so fast.
1/Christians do their share of terrorist attacks.
In my country they are so far behind ALL terrorist attacks.
2/One could easily the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq was religiously(extreme evangelical right wing) motivated by the Bush Jr administration.

flyguy89 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Extreme Religious nutcases on both sides (the christian and islamic) are equally bad, they are working towards destabilizing society, and de-humanize those on «the other side» destroying peace and prosperity for moderate voices and non-believers, which, after all includes almost everybody.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: . This. . We always want to condemn those of other religions who go to such extremes (i.e., the beheading of this French teacher), but ignore the equally extreme measures of those people of our own predominant religion (i.e., far-right "christians" who murder doctors for performing procedures they don't accept).

Let's not act like these threats are exactly equal, that's just naive. Of course there are Christian religious kooks who have done some terrible things, but by and large, in Western society, you can mock and criticize Christianity with impunity...in fact, it's usually considered cool, just look at some of the most popular programming out there like Family Guy and South Park. The same cannot be said of Islam.
 
Jetty
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:27 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
They should be prod so often they get used to it, that’s what they signed up for when coming to Europe and it happened with Christianity in Western Europe as well. Christians still have their faith but don’t make such a fuss when someone tries to make a joke about them.


This is a horrible statement. Immigration means you have to deal with ridicule? Not to mention I don't see many news outlets or anyone for that matter mocking Christians' God with cartoons. Like I said some things you should stay away from even with the right to do so. Losing your head isn't worth it.

Immigration indeed means you have to deal with ridicule, not because you’re an immigrant but because you chose to move from a country where (certain types of) ridicule are not accepted to a country where it’s legal and part of the culture. If you can’t handle that: don’t move.

Christians have been mocked (in cartoons as well) as long as I can remember, so it is definitely true for my country (The Netherlands). Take this clip that mocked the pope when he visited i.e., number 5 in the charts and shown many times on public television. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C4QL5EnHgvc

The point is that freedom is worth losing your head. Islamists will always find a way to be insulted in a non-Muslim society and we shouldn’t surrender because they are so violent. Your logic of pandering to Islamist aggression will in the end undo many Western freedoms and hurt the rights of non-Muslims. Do same-sex couples really have to show affection in public? They can do so at home and it isn’t worth losing your head over is it?
 
flyguy89
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:06 pm

M564038 wrote:
Not so fast.
1/Christians do their share of terrorist attacks.
In my country they are so far behind ALL terrorist attacks.

Right, I guess that's why we all duck and cover, shutter embassies in Christian countries, and creators go into hiding or round-the-clock security every time American television airs satirical depictions of God, Jesus, or the Pope.

M564038 wrote:
2/One could easily the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq was religiously(extreme evangelical right wing) motivated by the Bush Jr administration.

Really reaching there.
 
M564038
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:12 pm

No man, I am not reaching, it is a pretty mainstream analysis of what went so wrong in american politics at the time.

As for the first point, I can only refer to statistics.
Claiming terrorism in the west is all about muslims, is simply wrong.

flyguy89 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Not so fast.
1/Christians do their share of terrorist attacks.
In my country they are so far behind ALL terrorist attacks.

Right, I guess that's why we all duck and cover, shutter embassies in Christian countries, and creators go into hiding or round-the-clock security every time American television airs satirical depictions of God, Jesus, or the Pope.

M564038 wrote:
2/One could easily the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq was religiously(extreme evangelical right wing) motivated by the Bush Jr administration.

Really reaching there.
 
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Braybuddy
Posts: 6794
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:36 pm

M564038 wrote:
Claiming terrorism in the west is all about muslims, is simply wrong.

Who said that? Terrorism comes in many shapes and sizes. Since 2015 Islamic extremists have carried out numeous violent and barbaric attacks across Europe, killing and injuring hundreds, so they're the main terrorist risk on the continent at the moment. No other group comes remotely close.
 
M564038
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoono

Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:12 pm

Most terrorist attacks in europe is not Jihadi, but they tend to be more deadly.
But more importantly: More people, a lot more people, a whole lot more people die in their bath tubs than from terrorism.
Year after year after year.

Maybe that is why you aren’t allowed to bring water through security.

They are afraid you are going to fill a bath tub with it.
Braybuddy wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Claiming terrorism in the west is all about muslims, is simply wrong.

Who said that? Terrorism comes in many shapes and sizes. Since 2015 Islamic extremists have carried out numeous violent and barbaric attacks across Europe, killing and injuring hundreds, so they're the main terrorist risk on the continent at the moment. No other group comes remotely close.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:19 pm

Well we don't change our ways precisely because we want to show we're not afraid, but also because terrorists are fortunately not that successful.

Still, people are talking about a civil war brewing these days in France. The constitution might get amended, the Senate has already made a proposal (before the latest attack) and passed it today, making it clearer that religion or origin can't be invoked to bypass laws and rules of the republic.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Derico
Posts: 4425
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:27 am

Any act of violence no matter the reason or grievance is evil, end of story.

Freedom of expression and opinion are inviolable, end of story.

Here comes my "but": If you attend a public school, and the discussion will be the veracity and skeptical eye on, for example, Jesus Christ and the events surrounding and following his death, or the discussion will center on images of Mohammed, or on actual veracity or not of the Old Testament, are students who are devoutly Christian, Muslim, or Jewish required to sit through such discussions or classes? Again, this is no argument for justifying anything that violates anyone else's rights, but (while not religious myself), if topics will be discussed that touch near the core of someone's beliefs, maybe they also have the right to choose to sit through or not attend. I think religion should not be an 'off-topic' in public settings, but I also believe that no one should be captive in having to listen to anything that goes against their religious choices.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Sokes
Posts: 2151
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:28 am

alfa164 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I also exclude head cover and swimming classes for girls. The West should make clear that Western values take priority over religious commands.


There is a fine line here: we do need to respect those sincere religious beliefs, as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. I don't see how head covers cause problems to those who don't were such garments, and swimming classes need not be mandatory for anyone, regardless of religion (or lack of religion, which should be equally respected).

Indeed, disregarding the rights of others - religious and otherwise - is one thing that leads to the divisions that breed extremism.

And who says that a 16 year old girl wants the head cover and isn't forced by her parents/ brothers?

Orthodox religious people are not liberal. Therefore no point in treating them as liberals.

My sister in law had a Muslim friend. She made the impression that she would like to have some freedom. Her father chose a religious husband for her. That meant no more roaming freely and of course head cover.

Nice book concerning orthodox Hindus in Rajasthan:
Rama Mehta, "Inside the haveli"

I claim for myself to be only moderate ethnocentric.
My son is twelve and, truly Indian style, he still sleeps in our bed.
If an Indian criticizes that the easy divorce in the West leads to poverty among children I will agree. I'm not against divorce, but I believe divorced people should not have more children with a further partner. I'm not an "anything goes" liberal. But there are basic freedoms which I consider necessary for a happy life.
And, as I said before, some people are simply not designed to have fixed relationships or share other mainstream values.

I have a Muslim "friend" who is very religious. He regrets that his parents didn't send him to a Madras for religious studies. It is considered good to learn the Koran by heart. But only children can do that. Secular studies are neglected. My friend was thinking if he should send his son to a Madras. I asked him: "What if he isn't like you and later would like to choose a secular profession?"
There was no point in asking. He knew about it. That was his dilemma.

He doesn't interfere in my rights if he sends his child to a Madras.
Should Muslims in Europe be allowed to start Madrasas?

I believe it's a core Western value that religious communities have no right to force their view on others. It will be difficult to draw a line in parents- children relationships. I dislike that my wife forces my 12 year old son to pray rosary. It's a constant dilemma for me for I myself am unsure if this is within the rights of my wife or not. The government can do Muslim parents a favour by solving some of these dilemmas for them.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoono

Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:39 am

M564038 wrote:
Most terrorist attacks in europe is not Jihadi,

Oh really? Care to elaborate or provide some sources?
 
Redd
Posts: 1337
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:17 am

Sokes wrote:
Enlightenment will profit.



On what do you base that hypothesis? I'm a little less optimistic.
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoono

Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:18 am

Braybuddy wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Most terrorist attacks in europe is not Jihadi,

Oh really? Care to elaborate or provide some sources?

Speaking of Germany:
There were two men and a women. They called themselves "National Socialist Underground".
They radicalized in an organization called " Thuringia home protection". The head of this organization was an "informant" for the Thuringia office for the protection of the constitution.
The trio robbed some banks and killed a lot of foreigners. Once the police nearly had them. But a phone call from a state interior ministry stopped them.
Finally some published photos of a bank robbery led to them being caught.
It turns out one of them had a fake passport, but issued by the concerned authority. That's how they managed to stay of the radar for years.

In Germany a party needs to cross 5% of votes to enter any parliament. In Eastern German States there was a right wing party who had good chances. But who wants to vote for the right if these people kill people?

Unless somebody acts solitary, terrorists are nearly always useful idiots working for a master unknown to them.

Going a bit further back in time, you may google "Gladio".
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 2151
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:23 am

Redd wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Enlightenment will profit.



On what do you base that hypothesis? I'm a little less optimistic.

Cognitive dissonance among those who claim themselves true believers.
Disgust among cultural Muslims.

Very few people accept murder as a means to whatever end.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
M564038
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoono

Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:40 am

You can start with Europol. It is the natural place to start, they present yearly reports.

I’ll make it easy for you and provide you with this easy to read graphic from Europol via. Wikipedia.

Spoiler: Yes. Really. By a mile.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrori ... pdated.png


Braybuddy wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Most terrorist attacks in europe is not Jihadi,

Oh really? Care to elaborate or provide some sources?
 
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Aesma
Posts: 13393
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:18 am

Derico wrote:
Any act of violence no matter the reason or grievance is evil, end of story.

Freedom of expression and opinion are inviolable, end of story.

Here comes my "but": If you attend a public school, and the discussion will be the veracity and skeptical eye on, for example, Jesus Christ and the events surrounding and following his death, or the discussion will center on images of Mohammed, or on actual veracity or not of the Old Testament, are students who are devoutly Christian, Muslim, or Jewish required to sit through such discussions or classes? Again, this is no argument for justifying anything that violates anyone else's rights, but (while not religious myself), if topics will be discussed that touch near the core of someone's beliefs, maybe they also have the right to choose to sit through or not attend. I think religion should not be an 'off-topic' in public settings, but I also believe that no one should be captive in having to listen to anything that goes against their religious choices.


There should not be a discussion about the historicity of religious figures or the veracity of religions, this was a civics class (given by a history teacher). Now I tend to think that kids should be able to hear things that goes contrary to their beliefs (their parents' beliefs, really), that's part of living in a diverse society. Following this I expect a revamping of the course to make it clearer how it should be done.

France 13 regions have decided to print and distribute a book of caricatures (religious and politic ones) to all high school pupils.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3119
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:27 am

M564038 wrote:
No man, I am not reaching, it is a pretty mainstream analysis of what went so wrong in american politics at the time.

Not in the slightest.

M564038 wrote:
As for the first point, I can only refer to statistics.
Claiming terrorism in the west is all about muslims, is simply wrong.

Nobody has said that terrorism in the West is all about Muslims, but if your aim is to reduce sheer body count, it becomes obvious where one of the biggest issues lies. Does terrorism in a multitude of other forms menace the West and need to be blunted, of course. But navel gazing and pretending they all present an equal threat in the taking of innocent lives is, again, naive.
 
Redd
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:35 am

Sokes wrote:
Redd wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Enlightenment will profit.



On what do you base that hypothesis? I'm a little less optimistic.

Cognitive dissonance among those who claim themselves true believers.
Disgust among cultural Muslims.

Very few people accept murder as a means to whatever end.


Yes, but that disgust hasn't translated to a decrease of such actions.
 
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Braybuddy
Posts: 6794
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoono

Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:49 am

M564038 wrote:
You can start with Europol. It is the natural place to start, they present yearly reports.

I’ll make it easy for you and provide you with this easy to read graphic from Europol via. Wikipedia.

Spoiler: Yes. Really. By a mile.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrori ... pdated.png

That graph is seven years out of date. Scroll down further on that page and look at the table of incidents. Since 2013, the date on that graph you referenced, there have been eight Al Qaeda/Isis-inspired attacks, killing 324 people and injuring 1,715. There have been two suspected attacks by Russian separatists in Ukraine (310/18), and one by a right wing terrorist in Germany 10/6).
 
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c933103
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:10 am

I heard that both the attacker and victim in this case are Russian?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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Sokes
Posts: 2151
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:22 am

Redd wrote:
Yes, but that disgust hasn't translated to a decrease of such actions.

Agreed.
I'm not concerned about terrorist attacks. If safety would be my concern, I would demand 100 km/ h on highways.
My interest is in integration. I feel sorry for young people suffering from their parents' rigid attitude.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?

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