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johns624
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:25 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Not to mention I don't see many news outlets or anyone for that matter mocking Christians' God with cartoons. Like I said some things you should stay away from even with the right to do so. Losing your head isn't worth it.
You've never watched Family Guy, have you?
 
Cerecl
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:04 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I am not saying they should be protected I am saying better judgement could save a few lives. I mean it's my right to insult overweight people to their face but I choose not to.

You're giving legitimacy to nutjob terrorists.

I almost never agree with NIKV69 on this forum, but he is spot on here. Freedom of speech does not mean saying whatever you like and not expecting to accept the consequence. Of course, killing other people because of their speech is a heinous crime. However we all have dear or sacred something, ridicule of which will draw a strong reaction. Respecting other people's belief/religion is basic human courtesy. Why must we refuse to accept this, or even worse, deliberately offend just because we can?

Derico wrote:
Freedom of expression and opinion are inviolable, end of story.

It is not the end of story. We all know there are things we shouldn't say because they violate the law. In addition we all learn there are expressions and opinions that are best kept to ourselves. If you said to your boss "hey you are kind of ugly", or if you visit a predominantly African-American suburb in the US and keep shouting the N word, I wonder how many on this forum would stand with you about inviolable right of speech after you are on the receiving end of some punitive action.

Jetty wrote:
Your logic of pandering to Islamist aggression will in the end undo many Western freedoms and hurt the rights of non-Muslims. Do same-sex couples really have to show affection in public? They can do so at home and it isn’t worth losing your head over is it?

As an immigrant I have a different view. When immigrants migrate to another country with a completely different culture obviously there will be some adaptation required. It however shouldn't mean that they need to accept everything that is considered to be normal or "part of culture" in the new country. It certainly shouldn't mean their culture or belief is fair game for ridicule. Integration should be fostered through respect and inclusion, not forced because "it is the way here". If you are a manager and you've a new staff, do you think he/she will settle in if you keep insulting them just because you can?
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:47 pm

Cerecl wrote:
I almost never agree with NIKV69 on this forum, but he is spot on here. Freedom of speech does not mean saying whatever you like and not expecting to accept the consequence. Of course, killing other people because of their speech is a heinous crime. However we all have dear or sacred something, ridicule of which will draw a strong reaction. Respecting other people's belief/religion is basic human courtesy. Why must we refuse to accept this, or even worse, deliberately offend just because we can?

You either have freedom of speech or you don't. Having your beliefs insulted doesn't give you the right to physically attack anyone.
 
Cerecl
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:06 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
You either have freedom of speech or you don't. Having your beliefs insulted doesn't give you the right to physically attack anyone.

We all have varying degrees of freedom of speech, no one has absolute freedom. No argument about the second sentence and I said as much. I am however taken aback by the number of people on this thread who basically think-"you are in our country, we have the right to insult your god/prophet, suck it up" and the same people then wonder why the immigrants are not integrating into their societies. Again, why insult other people who are different to you just because you can? Isn't there a better way of exercising freedom of speech?
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:31 pm

Cerecl wrote:
We all have varying degrees of freedom of speech, no one has absolute freedom. No argument about the second sentence and I said as much. I am however taken aback by the number of people on this thread who basically think-"you are in our country, we have the right to insult your god/prophet, suck it up" and the same people then wonder why the immigrants are not integrating into their societies. Again, why insult other people who are different to you just because you can? Isn't there a better way of exercising freedom of speech?

The problem with that is that it is entirely subjective. What is one person's comment, criticism or even innocent comment is another person's insult. You're advocating censorship because of people's sentitivites, which leaves the field open to fanatics and fundamentalists of every sort: you're letting them control the narrative.
 
Redd
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:52 pm

Sokes wrote:
Redd wrote:
Yes, but that disgust hasn't translated to a decrease of such actions.

Agreed.
I'm not concerned about terrorist attacks. If safety would be my concern, I would demand 100 km/ h on highways.
My interest is in integration. I feel sorry for young people suffering from their parents' rigid attitude.



I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. As I understand it, integration = a lack of terrorist attacks, and that = safety. Can you clarify?

Also, how do you think integration should be implemented?
 
Redd
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:56 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
You're advocating censorship because of people's sentitivites, which leaves the field open to fanatics and fundamentalists of every sort: you're letting them control the narrative.


:checkmark:

Not only that, but breeding resentment in the side that has been silenced by said fundamentalists and creating a further divide.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:57 pm

Cerecl wrote:
As an immigrant I have a different view. When immigrants migrate to another country with a completely different culture obviously there will be some adaptation required. It however shouldn't mean that they need to accept everything that is considered to be normal or "part of culture" in the new country.

Why immigrate to said country in the first place?
 
Jetty
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:18 pm

Cerecl wrote:
I am however taken aback by the number of people on this thread who basically think-"you are in our country, we have the right to insult your god/prophet, suck it up" and the same people then wonder why the immigrants are not integrating into their societies. Again, why insult other people who are different to you just because you can? Isn't there a better way of exercising freedom of speech?

Before that we should ask another question. Why move to a country/culture where you are easily offended? Many immigrants want the economic benefits of Western Europe but don’t accept the rest of the package. If that’s the case the solution isn’t for the native population to change their mentality, but the logical solution would be for those immigrants to stay away / be send back because they are incompatible.

Then to answer your question: nobody said you should ridicule someone just because you can. I’m sure there are many legal ways to ridicule someone that the vast majority of people here and elsewhere would disapprove of. If it’s about religion specifically: many aspects of religion simply are quite ridiculous from a rational perspective and religions are powerful institutions. That makes them a good target for ridicule, for the same reasons that a powerful and irrational president and his supporters make a good target for ridicule but the average council member does not.

How about if we turn it around? Should people really propagate religions that all are quite negative -to say the least- about nonbelievers just because they can? This question probably didn’t even cross your mind because you see a special place for religion vis a vis personal opinions. But if you start from the perspective that no such exemption exists the answer to your own question should be easy.
 
alfa164
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:23 pm

Sokes wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
There is a fine line here: we do need to respect those sincere religious beliefs, as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. I don't see how head covers cause problems to those who don't were such garments, and swimming classes need not be mandatory for anyone, regardless of religion (or lack of religion, which should be equally respected). Indeed, disregarding the rights of others - religious and otherwise - is one thing that leads to the divisions that breed extremism.

And who says that a 16 year old girl wants the head cover and isn't forced by her parents/ brothers?


And what is your point? That is a parent's right, until the child gets to the age of maturity. Are you advocating taking away parental rights because you do not believe in the same practices as those parents? That becomes the ultimate extreme position.


Sokes wrote:
My sister in law had a Muslim friend. She made the impression that she would like to have some freedom. Her father chose a religious husband for her.


That is an issue that is certainly not restricted to Muslim believers; aren't Hindu's even more guilty of "arranged marriages"? Who is to say one religious parent makes any better decision that the parent of a different religion? The fact that those religions (and they are not the only ones) tolerate - or even condone - such arrangements puts them in the same category on this issue.


Sokes wrote:
[I believe it's a core Western value that religious communities have no right to force their view on others. It will be difficult to draw a line in parents- children relationships. I dislike that my wife forces my 12 year old son to pray rosary. It's a constant dilemma for me for I myself am unsure if this is within the rights of my wife or not. The government can do Muslim parents a favour by solving some of these dilemmas for them.


Can you see your obvious contradiction here? You condemn the parent who forces his daughter to follow a particular practice, yet you allow your own family to force your son to follow a different religious practice. Would you like for the government to solve that "problem" for you? Government intervention in family life is the last thing more of even our far-right posters would probably want - unless, of course, it only affected someone else's family. That seems to be a very selective judgement; it reminds me of the old Swahili saying:

"It makes a difference whose ox is gored."


Sokes wrote:
I feel sorry for young people suffering from their parents' rigid attitude.


Pot... meet kettle...
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:30 am

Redd wrote:
Not exactly sure what you're trying to say. As I understand it, integration = a lack of terrorist attacks, and that = safety. Can you clarify?

Also, how do you think integration should be implemented?

I consider a few hundred dead / year in Europe through religious nuts acceptable.
Parallel societies are not acceptable.

Around 1992 I had a discussion with somebody of Turkish background, probably first generation born in Germany. I asked why a Turkish boy can have a German girlfriend, but his sister can't have a German boyfriend. He said it's not acceptable in his culture.

The Turkish never made a fuss about religion. There were plenty of anti Turkish jokes, none based on religion.

There was a "Golden Age of Islam" when the upper class were traders with a wide experience of travel, when European feudal society had the leading classes far more backward.
So while I am prejudiced against tribal religions (as well as tribal societies), I generally believe economical, not religious factors dominate culture. However if immigrants feel rejected they may take pride in their "own" culture.
Time also plays a role. Europe's exit from the middle Ages began maybe in the Renaissance. But then homosexual rights improved only very recently. So change in our mentality took a few hundred years.
IIRC the US in the first half of 20th century had a policy to strengthen US identity. Immigrants even after few generation still had identity of country of origin. The US had to get rid of it.

The Turkish were invited to Germany for simple jobs, so most may have been from poor, backward regions and background. That didn't make integration easier.

I had a granny born around 1900. Already when I was 14 or so I found her loving, but too simple minded. Her mentality and my mentality were very different, and she died during my adolescence. Her views on sex before marriage or gay marriage were incompatible with today's views.
Forget other religions and foreigners. Suppose we can invent a time machine and bring three million French of 1900 to today's France.
Should mainstream society try to teach their children today's way of thinking or should we accept that their children view the world different?

Even better:
We take three million Germans with 1900 mentality.
According to political correctness cultures are not better or worse, only different. So what should be wrong with it?

I am sure the Turkish have some cultural treasures. I'm willing to learn, provided they can argue their case.
They can also refuse mainstream culture, provided they can argue their case.
And if Muslims can credible argue that girls are not forced by their family to wear head cover, I have no problem with head cover. So head cover for a Turkish background girl in Germany is not the same as head cover for an Arab background girl in France.

A Muslim of a collective society may say the head cover is not for discussion. So do I.
Collective and individualist societies have incompatible views. From my experiences in India, but also from literature, I believe collective societies are rather unhappy societies. The West exaggerates with individualism and I'm happy to listen to criticizm. But overall I believe personal freedoms lead to more happiness.
Of course Western society also has people who prefer the collective over individualism. It is to be hoped that sport events satisfy their needs.
Unfortunately the collective mind is prone to a " we against them" mentality.
Are Front National/ AFD supporters the Turkish/ Arabs of Europe?

Being immigrant myself in a collective mentality society, do I take too much pride in the culture of my origin? The usual argument is that migrants should adapt to the culture of the host country. Well, I believe it's a mind that leads to unhappiness. Indeed now is the first time most Indian children enjoy at least 10 years of education. And the young generation clearly tends to more individualism. They also don't like the extreme collective mind. Obvious it can't be changed in one generation, but developments are hopeful. Similar third generation Turkish born in Germany are more agreeable than their ancestors.
Why to help the old mindset by showing tollerance to a thinking that oppresses individual choice?

Do I argue like a Taliban?
That's possible. As I said, I believe in Weltanschauung.
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:07 am

alfa164 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I believe it's a core Western value that religious communities have no right to force their view on others. It will be difficult to draw a line in parents- children relationships. I dislike that my wife forces my 12 year old son to pray rosary. It's a constant dilemma for me for I myself am unsure if this is within the rights of my wife or not. The government can do Muslim parents a favour by solving some of these dilemmas for them.


Can you see your obvious contradiction here? You condemn the parent who forces his daughter to follow a particular practice, yet you allow your own family to force your son to follow a different religious practice. Would you like for the government to solve that "problem" for you? Government intervention in family life is the last thing more of even our far-right posters would probably want - unless, of course, it only affected someone else's family. That seems to be a very selective judgement...

You are indeed right.
Till which age and to what extend are parents allowed to force their view on children? To what extend is the government allowed to propagate a view if parents disagree?

Take sex education. That used to be a topic in Europe earlier.
Recently a friend of my son found a packet of Tampons. He asked me what it is. I felt he has a right to a proper answer. In Germany I would have given him a proper answer. But then I wondered if his parents may get upset over it. So I simply said it's for women's hygiene. From my hesitation the boy must have felt that this is one of the questions one mustn't ask.
Should I adapt to the mainstream culture or should I have listened to my Weltanschauung?
What should the government do?

My brother is religious. He says if one doesn't teach religion to the children, they will never become religious. But one could also argue that if one doesn't brainwash children into believing something for which there is no evidence, they won't believe it later.

Gandhi believed in communal living. He had his Ashrams. He said the family is a place of ignorance.

At the start of WW1 school teachers brainwashed children to join the war. One can't say the government always gets it right. But I believe in case of doubt school teachers are on average less ignorant than parents.

It is generally a human dilemma. Parents spend incredible time and resources into their children. In exchange some parents believe their children have to follow their wishes. A businessman may wish his child to join the business. What if the child is not interested in business?

Once my son is 16 years old I shall definitely take his side.
From which age do Muslim parents give their children a choice if they want or don't want to follow the religion?
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:19 am

India follows a philosophy that religion is none of the government's business. Accordingly there are different marriage laws. There is a secular law. Anybody can choose to marry according to it. The Catholic Church only gets a couple married after they marry according to this secular law. But Hindus and Muslims can marry in the temple/ mosque without it.

Muslim marriage law allows a man to take several wives. Should a Muslim father ask his daughter if she prefers to marry in a mosque or according to secular law?
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:34 am

Sokes wrote:
I consider a few hundred dead / year in Europe through religious nuts acceptable.


Seriously? Sorry, I consider everyone who considers religion based murders acceptable to be mentally ill.
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:11 am

WildcatYXU wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I consider a few hundred dead / year in Europe through religious nuts acceptable.


Seriously? Sorry, I consider everyone who considers religion based murders acceptable to be mentally ill.

So what is your solution? Do you want to throw out all Muslims? Or should Europe under Bush have left NATO?
These are the two solutions I see. I find both unacceptable, therefore I accept the alternative.

Out of curiosity:
Which diagnosis would you give me?
 
alfa164
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:57 am

Sokes wrote:
India follows a philosophy that religion is none of the government's business.


That is demonstrably false; Modi's government is embracing Hinduism, to an extreme that equals the embrace of Islam by many of the most radical Muslim states. Indeed, his obsession with power has been made possible by stirring the basest of his Hindu majority, and an "us-against-them" mentality that has lead to riots, killings, and, to his seemingly unconcerned followers, an opening to consolidate political power within his party and within himself. To wit:

"Through his wildly successful promotion of Hindutva ideology, Modi is poised to remake India into a Russian-style “managed democracy”—one retaining all the trappings of democracy while operating as a de facto autocracy."

His earlier career formed his strategy:

"Before coming to power nationally, Modi was chief minister of Gujarat state, which had a history of intercommunal violence that was often exploited for political gains by local politicians. Modi was no exception. In February 2002, Modi declared that an attack on a train at Godhra was not related to communal violence but instead was an act of terrorism—implying that it had been carried out by Pakistani intelligence services. A pogrom followed, with Hindu mobs killing hundreds of Muslims in well-organized and exceptionally brutal campaigns. The Gujarat administration did little to help those affected by the violence or forced to flee to refugee camps."

India, after Gandhi, was a sectarian miracle, but even the best of governments can fall to a demagogue who relies on religious hatred. In the current time, India has made religion every bit the government's business - and use it to keep this government in power.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/13/modi-india-hindutva-hindu-nationalism-autocracy/


Sokes wrote:
I consider a few hundred dead / year in Europe through religious nuts acceptable.


I can only see your thinking in the context of today's India: killing Muslims good, killing Hindus bad. Right?


WildcatYXU wrote:
Seriously? Sorry, I consider everyone who considers religion based murders acceptable to be mentally ill.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: . Unfortunately, that has become the Machiavellian position of those deranged individuals who preach the us-against-them philosophy.
 
WIederling
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:34 am

WildcatYXU wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I consider a few hundred dead / year in Europe through religious nuts acceptable.


Seriously? Sorry, I consider everyone who considers religion based murders acceptable to be mentally ill.


"Religious motives"

Is it OK for you if those murders are cloaked with a "War against $Something" narrative?
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6324
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:40 am

Sokes wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I consider a few hundred dead / year in Europe through religious nuts acceptable.


Seriously? Sorry, I consider everyone who considers religion based murders acceptable to be mentally ill.

So what is your solution? Do you want to throw out all Muslims? Or should Europe under Bush have left NATO?
These are the two solutions I see. I find both unacceptable, therefore I accept the alternative.

Out of curiosity:
Which diagnosis would you give me?


Diagnosis: The unofiical king of nonsensical replies? More often than not, I have no clue what on earth you are trying to say.
 
Redd
Posts: 1360
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:17 am

Sokes wrote:
Redd wrote:
Not exactly sure what you're trying to say. As I understand it, integration = a lack of terrorist attacks, and that = safety. Can you clarify?

Also, how do you think integration should be implemented?

I consider a few hundred dead / year in Europe through religious nuts acceptable.
Parallel societies are not acceptable.

Around 1992 I had a discussion with somebody of Turkish background, probably first generation born in Germany. I asked why a Turkish boy can have a German girlfriend, but his sister can't have a German boyfriend. He said it's not acceptable in his culture.

The Turkish never made a fuss about religion. There were plenty of anti Turkish jokes, none based on religion.

There was a "Golden Age of Islam" when the upper class were traders with a wide experience of travel, when European feudal society had the leading classes far more backward.
So while I am prejudiced against tribal religions (as well as tribal societies), I generally believe economical, not religious factors dominate culture. However if immigrants feel rejected they may take pride in their "own" culture.
Time also plays a role. Europe's exit from the middle Ages began maybe in the Renaissance. But then homosexual rights improved only very recently. So change in our mentality took a few hundred years.
IIRC the US in the first half of 20th century had a policy to strengthen US identity. Immigrants even after few generation still had identity of country of origin. The US had to get rid of it.

The Turkish were invited to Germany for simple jobs, so most may have been from poor, backward regions and background. That didn't make integration easier.

I had a granny born around 1900. Already when I was 14 or so I found her loving, but too simple minded. Her mentality and my mentality were very different, and she died during my adolescence. Her views on sex before marriage or gay marriage were incompatible with today's views.
Forget other religions and foreigners. Suppose we can invent a time machine and bring three million French of 1900 to today's France.
Should mainstream society try to teach their children today's way of thinking or should we accept that their children view the world different?

Even better:
We take three million Germans with 1900 mentality.
According to political correctness cultures are not better or worse, only different. So what should be wrong with it?

I am sure the Turkish have some cultural treasures. I'm willing to learn, provided they can argue their case.
They can also refuse mainstream culture, provided they can argue their case.
And if Muslims can credible argue that girls are not forced by their family to wear head cover, I have no problem with head cover. So head cover for a Turkish background girl in Germany is not the same as head cover for an Arab background girl in France.

A Muslim of a collective society may say the head cover is not for discussion. So do I.
Collective and individualist societies have incompatible views. From my experiences in India, but also from literature, I believe collective societies are rather unhappy societies. The West exaggerates with individualism and I'm happy to listen to criticizm. But overall I believe personal freedoms lead to more happiness.
Of course Western society also has people who prefer the collective over individualism. It is to be hoped that sport events satisfy their needs.
Unfortunately the collective mind is prone to a " we against them" mentality.
Are Front National/ AFD supporters the Turkish/ Arabs of Europe?

Being immigrant myself in a collective mentality society, do I take too much pride in the culture of my origin? The usual argument is that migrants should adapt to the culture of the host country. Well, I believe it's a mind that leads to unhappiness. Indeed now is the first time most Indian children enjoy at least 10 years of education. And the young generation clearly tends to more individualism. They also don't like the extreme collective mind. Obvious it can't be changed in one generation, but developments are hopeful. Similar third generation Turkish born in Germany are more agreeable than their ancestors.
Why to help the old mindset by showing tollerance to a thinking that oppresses individual choice?

Do I argue like a Taliban?
That's possible. As I said, I believe in Weltanschauung.


First of all I'll state that there shouldn't be a single terrorist death on EU soil, and I believe the EU should be taking steps (regardless of political correctness) to make this happen. The mass immigration, especially from Muslim countries is causing local European cultures to disappear. Multiculturalism does that, and it also creates a stigma around local people being proud of their local culture and in many cases that is labelled racist.

Having been born and raised in Toronto, one of the most multicultural places in the world, I was a staunch supporter of multiculturalism when I moved to Poland in 2009. At the time and largely now it's a monoculture here, and we just don't have SO MANY of the problems Toronto or just about every North American or Western European city has. We don't have ghettos and dangerous neighbourhoods, we don't have racial or religious tensions, my girlfriend can walk home at 1:00am without any fear of being bothered in the streets or accosted. Frankly, it's lovely! I don't want that to change, it's a high quality of life I enjoy (feeling safe)

I think the expectation that every white country needs to become multicultural is a horrible one, and every experiment we have seen proves that right. Especially as you consider ''a couple of hundred terrorist murders in Europe per year'' acceptable. I don't accept that, and I don't think anyone should.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any immigration, but only on an individual level. That way these countries can properly help these people integrate and become successful, and become productive members of society. Not people who come in droves and build mini Muslim states, with mosques and their way of life forced on everyone around them.

Immigrants should welcomed, but only if they integrate. If they don't, plane ticket home and oh well. You'd had your chance and you didn't take it. Goodbye and don't come back.
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:18 am

alfa164 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
India follows a philosophy that religion is none of the government's business.


That is demonstrably false; Modi's government is embracing Hinduism, to an extreme that equals the embrace of Islam by many of the most radical Muslim states.

Why don't you visit Goa sometimes?
In Mapusa there is a church. To get parking places a neighboring hill was cut. To do it a massive retaining wall had to be erected. That was done by a BJP government.

Agreed about the Gujarat riots.
However before these riots there were repeated communal conflicts because of Babri Masjid. Not many died, but it spoilt the mood. After the Gujarat killings these riots stopped. Since the mentality is dominance and submission, how would you have stopped the repeated riots?

Modi could have not done demonetarisation, the introduction of the goods and service tax (=VAT) and other important reforms without the riots. You may read Macchiavelli " The prince" to understand what I mean.
Before you criticize Macchiavelli you should read him anyway.
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:37 am

Redd wrote:
I think the expectation that every white country needs to become multicultural is a horrible one, and every experiment we have seen proves that right. Especially as you consider ''a couple of hundred terrorist murders in Europe per year'' acceptable. I don't accept that, and I don't think anyone should.

So now I'm accused of being a radical left multi culti and a terrible right winger at the same time?
If there are several million Muslims in one country and every alternate year one goes crazy it's tragic, but there is not much one can do. Moreover the risk to die of such an attack is miniscule. Since the risk is so low and since I see no possible action I consider it acceptable.

Unless somebody suggests a solution there is no point in criticizing me.
For not accepting it means to take some action. Which action?

You say the West should insist on its values. Prohibit burka etc and the most radical guys may not come. One may agree or disagree, but at least you do suggest some action.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:46 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Cerecl wrote:
As an immigrant I have a different view. When immigrants migrate to another country with a completely different culture obviously there will be some adaptation required. It however shouldn't mean that they need to accept everything that is considered to be normal or "part of culture" in the new country.

Why immigrate to said country in the first place?


L410 is correct, if you immigrate to a new country you need to forget your old life and how to acted and reacted to situations when you were in your home country. If you don't like it go back to where you came from.
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:47 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Diagnosis: The unofiical king of nonsensical replies? More often than not, I have no clue what on earth you are trying to say.

If my talk doesn't make sense it may be hypomania. :bouncy:
My opinions are mostly not very strong, for whatever opinion I form, I soon discover contradicting evidence. If I state my opinion, I often at the same time give the contradicting evidence.

Often I just describe my observation. I leave it to you to make an opinion out of it.
I like to write. It slows my thought, helps me create new thoughts and helps me find mistakes and gaps in knowledge and thought.

So if my posts are confusing it's because I myself can't form a theory that unites all available evidence.
 
Cerecl
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:40 am

Braybuddy wrote:
The problem with that is that it is entirely subjective. What is one person's comment, criticism or even innocent comment is another person's insult. You're advocating censorship because of people's sensitivities, which leaves the field open to fanatics and fundamentalists of every sort: you're letting them control the narrative.

Let's have a bit of common sense here. I am an atheist but I recognise that showing a naked and unflattering caricature of a god/deity of a religion is going to offend devote followers of said religion. This is pretty simple stuff, doesn't need a Ph.D degree to understand that. We all exercise censorship because we all have a brain and know we probably shouldn't say aloud every thought that comes through our mind. Why focusing on the fringe/fundamental/fanatic minority of a group when you really want to influence the majority? Do you think other moderate muslims are jumping in joy or enjoying a hearty laugh at those cartoons?
 
Cerecl
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:43 am

Redd wrote:
Not only that, but breeding resentment in the side that has been silenced by said fundamentalists and creating a further divide.

Resentment? Those feel resentment at not being able to insult other people's religion/god should have a good hard look at themselves and reflect what kind of person they are and why they build their satisfaction on other people's distress.
 
Cerecl
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:03 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Why immigrate to said country in the first place?

Jetty wrote:
Before that we should ask another question. Why move to a country/culture where you are easily offended? Many immigrants want the economic benefits of Western Europe but don’t accept the rest of the package. If that’s the case the solution isn’t for the native population to change their mentality, but the logical solution would be for those immigrants to stay away / be send back because they are incompatible.

Pretty simple, for the hope of a better life. No one said the native population should change their mentality, but the immigrant should also be afforded respect, of their customs, belief and religions. It is basic human courtesy.
Jetty wrote:
How about if we turn it around? Should people really propagate religions that all are quite negative -to say the least- about nonbelievers just because they can? This question probably didn’t even cross your mind because you see a special place for religion vis a vis personal opinions. But if you start from the perspective that no such exemption exists the answer to your own question should be easy.

Quite the opposite. I don't think religion has a special space. We all have freedom of believing or not believing something and religion cannot be forced onto people. Again, this is not about religion trumping personal opinion it is about respecting other people. It may be your opinion that one of your colleagues is a fool, do you say that to his/her face in your workplace in front of other people? No law prohibits you from expressing your opinion, so why don't you do it or taking it one step further, publish your opinion about this colleague on a newspaper?
 
Cerecl
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:21 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
L410 is correct, if you immigrate to a new country you need to forget your old life and how to acted and reacted to situations when you were in your home country. If you don't like it go back to where you came from.

Where do I start with this? Chinese and Koreans have long history of consuming dog meat, are you advocating for immigrants to these country to start eating dogs?
To be frank, some members on this forum seem to have this idea that all immigrants settling into their country should aim to turn into 100% natives. When immigrants dare to be different, they develop unfounded indignation/fear that somehow the native culture are under threat. Apart from a small minority, most immigrants just want to have a good life and have no intention to modify how other people live their life. When you start laughing at/insulting them because their god/customs/diet is different to yours, that's how radicalised element starts to find fertile ground.
 
N867DA
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:58 pm

Is this offensive? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
Is this a legitimate complaint? https://www.change.org/p/american-eagle ... rd-ganesha

Acts of violence due to religious differences are never acceptable, immigrant or not. Free speech should be unrestrained to the maximum extent possible. In my view things like Piss Christ, cartoons of prophets, and the Ganesh slippers are akin to farting in an elevator. Sure, it's legal and there should be no violence as a consequence but its not a great move to foster a better community.

How much of their native culture immigrants need to shed will always be a contentious issue. Some countries make it a lot easier to shed the old culture, and it seems Europe in general is not great at convincing its immigrants the European way (if there is such a pan-European culture in the first place) is better.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:10 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
L410 is correct, if you immigrate to a new country you need to forget your old life and how to acted and reacted to situations when you were in your home country. If you don't like it go back to where you came from.

Where do I start with this? Chinese and Koreans have long history of consuming dog meat, are you advocating for immigrants to these country to start eating dogs?

Sorry, you got it all wrong. If I choose to immigrate to South Korea, the reasonable expectation of their society is, that I won't be cutting their heads off next time they eat dogs. If the fact that they eat dogs is so unbearable to me, I should reconsider my choice of South Korea as a place I DECIDED to immigrate to.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:30 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
L410 is correct, if you immigrate to a new country you need to forget your old life and how to acted and reacted to situations when you were in your home country. If you don't like it go back to where you came from.

Where do I start with this? Chinese and Koreans have long history of consuming dog meat, are you advocating for immigrants to these country to start eating dogs?
To be frank, some members on this forum seem to have this idea that all immigrants settling into their country should aim to turn into 100% natives. When immigrants dare to be different, they develop unfounded indignation/fear that somehow the native culture are under threat. Apart from a small minority, most immigrants just want to have a good life and have no intention to modify how other people live their life. When you start laughing at/insulting them because their god/customs/diet is different to yours, that's how radicalised element starts to find fertile ground.


You don't have to eat dog, but you shouldn't make a seen about the natives eating dog. It's no different from people moving to Norway and bitching about Norwegians eating whale, just don't eat it, keep you gob shut is the best way of dealing with it.

When you move elsewhere you are a guest of that country, it's not place to expect the local to change for you. Just like it was not this idiots place to cut the teachers head off. You may find what the teacher did insulting, but he had every right to show those cartoons. The were widely published in Europe, my older sons class discussed them last last year.

Humans made up religion, the fact that grown adults still believe in gods is ridiculous. We are still making up new religions and gods, it's a pity people need something to believe in and follow rather than believing in themselves and their own abilities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... _movements

Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them.
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:12 pm

N867DA wrote:
Is this offensive? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
...
Free speech should be unrestrained to the maximum extent possible.
...

I assume most people will agree that Piss Christ is bad taste. That guy is an idiot, why to get upset?

The problem with free speech is that it includes idiots. And just like the artist has the right to exhibit what he wants, I have the right to call him an idiot.
Once free speech is limited, there is no saying where censorship will end.

What if in context of sexual abuse of minors by priests somebody makes a cartoon about it?
Is it a judgement over the probably 98% innocent priests? Is it good if society finally discusses such cases? Is the attack justified since church authorities tried to hide cases?

Pope John Paul II in India apologized for crimes committed in the name of Christ. A Christian wrote a letter to the newspaper:
How can the pope apologize, when the popes are infallible?
That wasn't a mockery. He found the apology inappropriate. "Therefore I only want to boast of my weaknesses" isn't pleasing to the dominance and submission mind.
Pretty strange considering that Peter was special because of his humble attitude. Jesus chose him to lead the church even though he betrayed Jesus three times, chopped of a soldiers ear, enthusiastically tried to walk on water and was generally faster with his actions than with his thoughts.
So there is no end to what can offend the religious mind.

How much of their native culture immigrants need to shed will always be a contentious issue.

I earlier gave the example that around 1990 Turkish young men in Germany had German girlfriends, but wouldn't allow their sisters a German boyfriend.
What position should somebody well meaning to immigrants take?
 
Jetty
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:22 pm

Cerecl wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Why immigrate to said country in the first place?

Jetty wrote:
Before that we should ask another question. Why move to a country/culture where you are easily offended? Many immigrants want the economic benefits of Western Europe but don’t accept the rest of the package. If that’s the case the solution isn’t for the native population to change their mentality, but the logical solution would be for those immigrants to stay away / be send back because they are incompatible.

Pretty simple, for the hope of a better life. No one said the native population should change their mentality, but the immigrant should also be afforded respect, of their customs, belief and religions. It is basic human courtesy.


The mentality of the native population is to ridicule powerful institutions, people and religions. The immigrant expects that his religion is respected. So you have to make a choice, your ideal world where everyone has its way is impossible.

How about if we turn it around? Should people really propagate religions that all are quite negative -to say the least- about nonbelievers just because they can? This question probably didn’t even cross your mind because you see a special place for religion vis a vis personal opinions. But if you start from the perspective that no such exemption exists the answer to your own question should be easy.

Quite the opposite. I don't think religion has a special space. We all have freedom of believing or not believing something and religion cannot be forced onto people. Again, this is not about religion trumping personal opinion it is about respecting other people. It may be your opinion that one of your colleagues is a fool, do you say that to his/her face in your workplace in front of other people? No law prohibits you from expressing your opinion, so why don't you do it or taking it one step further, publish your opinion about this colleague on a newspaper?

The problem is Mohammed isn’t my colleague, he isn’t even alive anymore. It’s an ancient figure that died a long time ago. Is it normal to publish newspaper articles about ancient figures that still have a lot of influence? Definitely! Just look at the BLM movement that labels many prominent people from the past evil. People might not agree, but nobody argues ridicule or criticism is not ok just because these people should be respected per se. That you can say about anything about historical figures without losing your head, but somehow Mohammed should be the exception because fundamentalistic people get offended is on the offended people. Offense is taken, not given.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:14 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Let's have a bit of common sense here. I am an atheist but I recognise that showing a naked and unflattering caricature of a god/deity of a religion is going to offend devote followers of said religion. This is pretty simple stuff, doesn't need a Ph.D degree to understand that. We all exercise censorship because we all have a brain and know we probably shouldn't say aloud every thought that comes through our mind. Why focusing on the fringe/fundamental/fanatic minority of a group when you really want to influence the majority? Do you think other moderate muslims are jumping in joy or enjoying a hearty laugh at those cartoons?

I understand your argument, but it comes back to my point of allowing people with strong religious beliefs to set the agenda. Homosexuality is offensive to some followers of Islam (and fundamental Christians). Does that mean I have to make myself invisible to these people? Does that entitle them to beat me up or chop my head off because my existence offends their god? If you start to censor things because it offends one religion, where do you stop? This all feeds through to woke politics and the attempt to ban "hate speech". This is censoring argument and debate and has no place in modern, progressive, educated democracies. It's the start of a slippery slope. What's the solution? Hard to know, apart from vetting immigrants carefully, but education might be a start.
 
N867DA
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:25 pm

Sokes wrote:
N867DA wrote:
Is this offensive? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
...
Free speech should be unrestrained to the maximum extent possible.
...

I assume most people will agree that Piss Christ is bad taste. That guy is an idiot, why to get upset?

The problem with free speech is that it includes idiots. And just like the artist has the right to exhibit what he wants, I have the right to call him an idiot.
Once free speech is limited, there is no saying where censorship will end.

What if in context of sexual abuse of minors by priests somebody makes a cartoon about it?
Is it a judgement over the probably 98% innocent priests? Is it good if society finally discusses such cases? Is the attack justified since church authorities tried to hide cases?

Pope John Paul II in India apologized for crimes committed in the name of Christ. A Christian wrote a letter to the newspaper:
How can the pope apologize, when the popes are infallible?
That wasn't a mockery. He found the apology inappropriate. "Therefore I only want to boast of my weaknesses" isn't pleasing to the dominance and submission mind.
Pretty strange considering that Peter was special because of his humble attitude. Jesus chose him to lead the church even though he betrayed Jesus three times, chopped of a soldiers ear, enthusiastically tried to walk on water and was generally faster with his actions than with his thoughts.
So there is no end to what can offend the religious mind.

How much of their native culture immigrants need to shed will always be a contentious issue.

I earlier gave the example that around 1990 Turkish young men in Germany had German girlfriends, but wouldn't allow their sisters a German boyfriend.
What position should somebody well meaning to immigrants take?


I mean, there's no shortage of jokes about Catholic priests, even in predominantly Catholic countries.

Some societies and peoples have caught on religion is just a construct to impose socially conservative views while others have not. You can' penalize the former because the latter claims some mantle of superiority due to their faith. I say this as a moderately religious person too.

The Ganesh slippers hurt my sensibilities and I would encourage my community to lodge complaints to the company, but I'd stop several rungs short of decapitating someone.

Turkish men not wanting heir sisters to date ethnic Germans may have a strong cultural component to it, though the religion doesn't help. I wonder how different say, Japanese or Sri Lankan men would feel about it. Or even Orthodox Jewish men. Some cultures just encourage relationships within the culture more than others, and most cultures have some gender-based duplicity.
 
Redd
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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:32 pm

Sokes wrote:
Redd wrote:
I think the expectation that every white country needs to become multicultural is a horrible one, and every experiment we have seen proves that right. Especially as you consider ''a couple of hundred terrorist murders in Europe per year'' acceptable. I don't accept that, and I don't think anyone should.

So now I'm accused of being a radical left multi culti and a terrible right winger at the same time?
If there are several million Muslims in one country and every alternate year one goes crazy it's tragic, but there is not much one can do. Moreover the risk to die of such an attack is miniscule. Since the risk is so low and since I see no possible action I consider it acceptable.

Unless somebody suggests a solution there is no point in criticizing me.
For not accepting it means to take some action. Which action?

You say the West should insist on its values. Prohibit burka etc and the most radical guys may not come. One may agree or disagree, but at least you do suggest some action.



Hey man, I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just simply stating my point of view. I don't expect it to be popular neither, but it is my point of view based on my experience.
 
Redd
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:34 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Redd wrote:
Not only that, but breeding resentment in the side that has been silenced by said fundamentalists and creating a further divide.

Resentment? Those feel resentment at not being able to insult other people's religion/god should have a good hard look at themselves and reflect what kind of person they are and why they build their satisfaction on other people's distress.


Not being able to make fun of something made up, ridiculous, that causes people to kill, rape, murder and pillage over.... I should reflect over having a problem with that?
 
M564038
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:42 pm

Religion has no more protection than any other opinion or feeling a person holds.
I will not insult your body, the color of your skin, your handicaps, gender, sexual orientation or anything that you haven’t chosen or are born with. I will help you when you are a person in need or as a neighbour, I will always be nice and polite to you and your children, I will never try to take away any social liberties you enjoy as long as they do no harm to others, I will even go as far as respect your right to believe in whatever religion you want to believe in.

But your religion can’t demand of me to respect IT or it’s rules. It is to have no bearing on my or any other’s life What. So. Ever. I will merely TOLERATE it’s existance and your right to practice it. That is all you can demand. With exeptions derived from the the points I first wrote. I can draw whatever I want. I can say whatever I want, I will condemn and ridicule any attempt by your religion to influence my life.

A religious person needs, to accept and be aware of that the teachings of their book is valid for the followers of that book only. Only.


Cerecl wrote:
Redd wrote:
Not only that, but breeding resentment in the side that has been silenced by said fundamentalists and creating a further divide.

Resentment? Those feel resentment at not being able to insult other people's religion/god should have a good hard look at themselves and reflect what kind of person they are and why they build their satisfaction on other people's distress.
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:22 am

Cerecl wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Why immigrate to said country in the first place?

Pretty simple, for the hope of a better life.

Isn't the material wealth of the West based on free speech?
Saudi Arabia is wealthy. Do they have innovative companies?

When the West had no free speech, the West was also poor.

Contradicting evidence:
I wonder what type of mockery Voltaire was allowed to write. He did have to run away at times, but was always allowed to return. So maybe it's more about censorship in mind and family than by authorities.
But is it really contradicting evidence?
Or is the French Revolution a product of a broad minded king, a middle step on the journey to liberalism, not the beginning?
(Voltaire died 1778, 11 years before the revolution.)
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:16 am

1) If God is almighty, but allows suffering, he isn't gracious.
2) If God is gracious, but there is suffering, he can't be almighty.

Martin Luther was intellectually sincere enough to admit that he can't solve that theological problem. Others were not so sincere. One popular position at the times of Voltaire was that we live in "the best of all possible worlds".

Voltaire decided to make a mockery out of it and wrote " Candide". It's fast and amusing reading, provided one appreciates sarcasm.
Because God is good with us he formed the nose so that glasses can fit...
Of course evil people do well, good people don't...

For the collective, religious, Christian mind of the 18th century it must have been outrageous.

I suggest obligatory reading and discussion in classes for immigrants of the following books:
1) Voltaire "Candide"
2) Arundhati Roy "The God of small things"
3) Pearl Buck "The good earth"
4) Khaled Husseini "A thousand splendid suns"
And one scientific book
5) "Why nations fail"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail

There also has to be a discussion with immigrants about the French Revolution.

I remember when I read "A thousand splendid suns" I felt strongly two contradicting thoughts:
1) It is obligatory to help the poor victims.
2) No way that we should allow the aggressors into Europe.

Europe is what it is because Napoleon forced his views and the Napoleonic code on us.
This discussion strengthened my believe that the West has to force its views on immigrants from backward, collective mind mentality countries.

While the orthodox are too ethnocentric, liberals are not ethnocentric enough.
For those who disagree, please read any of books 2)-4)
(In Arundhati Roy's book the first half mostly introduces characters. That's a bit boring, but the second half is very moving)
 
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Aesma
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:35 am

As an aside the pope is ruffling some feathers by advocating for civil unions of homosexual people (something not yet allowed in Italy, for example).
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:36 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
You may find what the teacher did insulting, but he had every right to show those cartoons. The were widely published in Europe, my older sons class discussed them last last year.


They would get instantly deleted on a.net, though.

alfa164 wrote:

Sokes wrote:
I also exclude head cover and swimming classes for girls. The West should make clear that Western values take priority over religious commands.


There is a fine line here: we do need to respect those sincere religious beliefs, as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. I don't see how head covers cause problems to those who don't were such garments, and swimming classes need not be mandatory for anyone, regardless of religion (or lack of religion, which should be equally respected).


This begs the question: Why should we let the extremists set the standards? If Muslim girls don't need swimming classes, why should they bother with physics or biology?
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:40 am

While education in British India only improved, and that also from an extreme low level, since 1900, there was a discussion among the 19th century ruling classes which education to offer in India. Orientalists wanted to continue with the old education, mostly with literature and religious texts. Macaulay famously responded in 1835:
"I have never found one among them (the orientalists) who could deny that a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia... "

From Michael Edwardes, "British India 1772-1947", chapter "Under company rule: Indian India, areas of impact: education":
"There was considerable opposition to the government's decision in 1823 to found and support a new college for Sanskrit studies. Ram Mohan Roy, the Bengali reformer, in a letter to the governor General expressed the sentiments of those who wanted the intellectual and material advantages which would result from their being given access to
"Mathematics, natural philosophy, chemistry, anatomy, and other useful sciences, which the natives of Europe have carried to a degree of perfection that has raised them above the inhabitants of other parts of the world."
They were, Roy continued, horrified at the idea that they were to receive instead a school which could
"only be expected to load the minds of youth with grammatical niceties and metaphysical distinctions of little or no practical use to the possessors or society".
If it was the government's policy to " keep this country in darkness", establishing a Sanskrit college was the best way of going about it."
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:57 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
That begs the question: Why should we let the extremists set the standards? If Muslim girls don't need swimming classes, why should they bother with physics or biology?

https://youtu.be/zMzet0pZmW4&t=90s

From Michael Edwardes, "British India 1772-1947", chapter "The Indian Empire, areas of impact: education":
" William Adam maintained that there was a belief amongst Hindu women that a girl that had been taught to read and write would be widowed soon after marriage- a belief, he recorded, 'not doscouraged by men.
...
The first successful attempt to establish a secular school for girls was made in 1849. This institution -set up by Drinkwater Bethune, law member of the governor general's council- was intended for girls of 'wealth and rank'. The girls were to be under the charge of an Englishwoman, and were to study Bengali and English and 'a thousand feminine works and accomplishments in embroidery and fancy work, in drawing, and in many other means that would give them the means of adorning their own homes and of supplying themselves with harmless and elegant employment. '
...
Indians might be demanding education for boys, but there was still positive opposition to education for girls. "
Last edited by Sokes on Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:07 am

Cerecl wrote:
No one said the native population should change their mentality, but the immigrant should also be afforded respect, of their customs, belief and religions. It is basic human courtesy.
But what if the immigrant’s behaviour is directly counter to the local population’s customs, beliefs etc.

Allow me to simplify the discussion a bit.

You invite someone into your house. They are nice and friendly to you, but treat your wife and daughters with contempt (by EU standards anyway).

1) Would you say something about it, or would you let it pass since it is their custom and tradition.
2) If you do say something, and they continue their poor behaviour, would you tell them to leave your house or not?
3) Would you ever invite them back?

Now replace “your house” with “your country”... and ask yourself the same questions.
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:06 am

petertenthije wrote:
You invite someone into your house. They are nice and friendly to you, but treat your wife and daughters with contempt (by EU standards anyway).

If men ignore the women it may not be contempt.
Whe I visited a Hindu friend my wife disappeared in the kitchen with my friend's wife. We sat in the Hall.
Obviously I didn't like it, but then I'm the foreigner.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:58 am

Sokes wrote:
If men ignore the women it may not be contempt.

Nice way to dodge the question... I said treat with contempt, I did not say ignore.
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:57 am

petertenthije wrote:
Sokes wrote:
If men ignore the women it may not be contempt.

Nice way to dodge the question... I said treat with contempt, I did not say ignore.

I struggle to visualize in what way the guest could show contempt. You have an example?
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:17 am

Sokes wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Sokes wrote:
If men ignore the women it may not be contempt.

Nice way to dodge the question... I said treat with contempt, I did not say ignore.

I struggle to visualize in what way the guest could show contempt. You have an example?


metaphor
/ˈmɛtəfə,ˈmɛtəfɔː/
noun
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
 
Sokes
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:27 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
metaphor
/ˈmɛtəfə,ˈmɛtəfɔː/
noun
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

What is not applicable?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:12 pm

Several people are now in jail awaiting charges. Two kids are involved (14 and 15). A mosque has been closed, an association has been dissolved, more to follow. Hundreds of people having published heinous messages on social media have been visited home by the authorities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... or-charges

Samuel Paty, the murdered professor, has been posthumously given the Légion d’honneur and the academic medal, during a national homage in the court of the Sorbonne University :

Image

Image

French President Macron gave a moving speech :

Paty was “a quiet hero”, a visibly moved Macron said in a 15-minute speech. “He was the victim of stupidity, of lies, of confusion, of a hatred of what, in our deepest essence, we are … On Friday, he became the face of the Republic.”

Addressing the dead teacher’s coffin, Macron said: “We will continue this fight for liberty and for reason of which you have now become the face, because we owe it to you. Because in France, sir, the lights will not go out.”

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos