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Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:11 pm
by slider
Sokes wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I consider a few hundred dead / year in Europe through religious nuts acceptable.


Seriously? Sorry, I consider everyone who considers religion based murders acceptable to be mentally ill.

So what is your solution? Do you want to throw out all Muslims? Or should Europe under Bush have left NATO?
These are the two solutions I see. I find both unacceptable, therefore I accept the alternative.

Out of curiosity:
Which diagnosis would you give me?


If you condone murder, you've got a few screws loose.

Re: Teacher Beheaded in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:33 pm
by Sokes
slider wrote:
If you condone murder, you've got a few screws loose.

Can you tell me a single month in human history without political motivated murder?
Mankind is like that, if you like it or not. So what is your solution? If you have no changes to suggest, you do accept the status quo just like me.

If Muslim fundamentalists had to kill 10.000 Europeans a year, Christian Europe might send all Muslims on an island. In short: the situation would become unacceptable.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:23 pm
by Braybuddy
Aesma wrote:
Several people are now in jail awaiting charges. Two kids are involved (14 and 15). A mosque has been closed, an association has been dissolved, more to follow. Hundreds of people having published heinous messages on social media have been visited home by the authorities.

Good to see a firm and rapid response. Will be interesting to see how this plays out as regards trials and convictions. Islam needs more Ayaan Hirsi Alis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heretic:_ ... mation_Now

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:41 pm
by Aesma
Cerecl wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
You either have freedom of speech or you don't. Having your beliefs insulted doesn't give you the right to physically attack anyone.

We all have varying degrees of freedom of speech, no one has absolute freedom. No argument about the second sentence and I said as much. I am however taken aback by the number of people on this thread who basically think-"you are in our country, we have the right to insult your god/prophet, suck it up" and the same people then wonder why the immigrants are not integrating into their societies. Again, why insult other people who are different to you just because you can? Isn't there a better way of exercising freedom of speech?


To go back to this, just for information, insulting someone in France is illegal. Publishing a cartoon of Muhammad isn't an insult though, in fact there was a court case over this and Charlie Hebdo won.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:25 pm
by Cerecl
L410Turbolet wrote:
Sorry, you got it all wrong. If I choose to immigrate to South Korea, the reasonable expectation of their society is, that I won't be cutting their heads off next time they eat dogs. If the fact that they eat dogs is so unbearable to me, I should reconsider my choice of South Korea as a place I DECIDED to immigrate to.

Err..I never said it is justified to cut off people's head. In fact I said exactly the opposite. But if you immigrated to Korea, Korean people started to laugh at you for not eating dog meat, or they actually killed your dog and ate it, how would you react?
Are you saying if you don't agree with every aspect of any country you should not immigrate?

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:39 pm
by Cerecl
Jetty wrote:

The mentality of the native population is to ridicule powerful institutions, people and religions. The immigrant expects that his religion is respected. So you have to make a choice, your ideal world where everyone has its way is impossible.

Then the native population leaders and the immigrant leaders should get together and explain each other's position. The immigrants have become part of the country they migrated to, yet too many on this thread still clearly think in the "we and they" way. Pretty easy for radical terrorist to preach "look, you want to be a good citizen, but these people can only think of laughing at you".

Jetty wrote:
The problem is Mohammed isn’t my colleague, he isn’t even alive anymore. It’s an anciesny prominent people from the past evil. People might not agree, but nobody argues ridicule or criticism is not ok just because these people should be respected per se. That you can say about anything about historical figures without losing your head, but somehow Mohammed should be the exception because fundamentalistic people get offended is on the offended people. Offense is taken, not given.

Your second sentence does not make complete sense. Why ridicule or applying the current day's morality standard on someone who lived >1000 yrs ago in another country with complete different culture? No argument killing people over their speech is high crime, but I don't get the merit, necessity or moral justification of deliberately ridiculing anyone (excluding universally acknowledged criminals/evil personalities and politicians probably an exception as they signed up for it when they chose their career), especially someone who is long dead and therefore not in a position to defend him/herself.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:46 pm
by Cerecl
petertenthije wrote:
Allow me to simplify the discussion a bit.

You invite someone into your house. They are nice and friendly to you, but treat your wife and daughters with contempt (by EU standards anyway).

1) Would you say something about it, or would you let it pass since it is their custom and tradition.
2) If you do say something, and they continue their poor behaviour, would you tell them to leave your house or not?
3) Would you ever invite them back?
Now replace “your house” with “your country”... and ask yourself the same questions.

Using your example, if you invite someone to your house, but start ridiculing their god/deity, do you think you will ever become friend with this guest? When your enemy or opponent approaches this person, do you think your behaviour makes it easier or harder for him/her to join your enemy's rank (of course if they proceed to harm you, it is illegal)

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:59 pm
by WildcatYXU
Cerecl wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Sorry, you got it all wrong. If I choose to immigrate to South Korea, the reasonable expectation of their society is, that I won't be cutting their heads off next time they eat dogs. If the fact that they eat dogs is so unbearable to me, I should reconsider my choice of South Korea as a place I DECIDED to immigrate to.

Err..I never said it is justified to cut off people's head. In fact I said exactly the opposite. But if you immigrated to Korea, Korean people started to laugh at you for not eating dog meat, or they actually killed your dog and ate it, how would you react?
Are you saying if you don't agree with every aspect of any country you should not immigrate?


Your example is completely wrong. If they'd kill and ate my dog, it would be the same situation as with any other livestock. Theft. Which is, last time I checked, a crime. Or it isn't where you live?

Cerecl wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Allow me to simplify the discussion a bit.

You invite someone into your house. They are nice and friendly to you, but treat your wife and daughters with contempt (by EU standards anyway).

1) Would you say something about it, or would you let it pass since it is their custom and tradition.
2) If you do say something, and they continue their poor behaviour, would you tell them to leave your house or not?
3) Would you ever invite them back?
Now replace “your house” with “your country”... and ask yourself the same questions.

Using your example, if you invite someone to your house, but start ridiculing their god/deity, do you think you will ever become friend with this guest? When your enemy or opponent approaches this person, do you think your behaviour makes it easier or harder for him/her to join your enemy's rank (of course if they proceed to harm you, it is illegal)


Well, the person this topic is about wasn't invited. He (his parents) asked to be let in, claiming to be in danger. And this is the payback.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:52 pm
by L410Turbolet
Cerecl wrote:
But if you immigrated to Korea, Korean people started to laugh at you for not eating dog meat, or they actually killed your dog and ate it, how would you react?

My (hypothetical) dog is my property, if it gets killed there is the Korean police/courts to sort it out. This does not give me an excuse to cut their heads off.

Cerecl wrote:
Are you saying if you don't agree with every aspect of any country you should not immigrate?


You should not immigrate to a country X, if you have a problem with how the very basics of how the destination society works. It's like going to a beer pub and then complain their wine selection sucks.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:15 pm
by Dogman
L410Turbolet wrote:
Cerecl wrote:
But if you immigrated to Korea, Korean people started to laugh at you for not eating dog meat, or they actually killed your dog and ate it, how would you react?

My (hypothetical) dog is my property, if it gets killed there is the Korean police/courts to sort it out. This does not give me an excuse to cut their heads off.

Cerecl wrote:
Are you saying if you don't agree with every aspect of any country you should not immigrate?


You should not immigrate to a country X, if you have a problem with how the very basics of how the destination society works. It's like going to a beer pub and then complain their wine selection sucks.


More like going to a beer pub and then complain that they are serving alcohol there.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:47 am
by Derico
This is one of the few times when I wish all western countries UNITED called out the outrageous hypocrisy from some government officials in Islamic regions. Every time things like this happen, and some even completely common sense criticism is leveled ( at the criminals which happen to claim to commit their lone crimes in the name of their religion), characters like Erdogan and others come out attacking everyone in the so-called West as 'anti-Islam'. I understand the relative need not to stoop down to an exchange of petty words, but calling them out for the outrageous medievalism of their government policies and practices when it comes to freedom of religion in their countries to non-Muslims is a no brainer to me. Why is this not more forcefully pointed out I don't know.

It's really terrible how the Islamic world has been just consumed (literally) by these extremist elements and opportunist governments in the last 30 to 40 years. I have purposefully done a lot of reading and research on the culture and it's so rich and accomplished historically, it was good for me to do this exercise because of course there are groups in the western countries which have disseminated misinformation for a long time on the Arabs and the greater Islamic world in general. Both wrongful paths must be countered, with logical reason but also blunt honesty.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:59 am
by Sokes
The affair makes circles:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-kuwa ... SKBN27A0R3

I'm not sure:
Will the publication of these cartoons in France as a reaction to the murder help or harm reform minded Muslims in these countries?

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:44 am
by Sokes
Cerecl wrote:
Then the native population leaders and the immigrant leaders should get together and explain each other's position. The immigrants have become part of the country they migrated to, yet too many on this thread still clearly think in the "we and they" way. Pretty easy for radical terrorist to preach "look, you want to be a good citizen, but these people can only think of laughing at you".

You approach it with a liberal perspective. But is human nature like this?
One unites a country by having a common enemy. Why are people interested in soccer? Why do young people develop their own words and different classes different habits and dress?

Many humans are hardwired to "us versus them".
Hindus in India are the exception. They don't look down on people who aren't Hindus. That's because they have low caste people to look down at.
Interesting enough there is a cultural organisation that wants to unite all Hindus. Needless to say some of its members can't do without common enemy and are prejudiced against Muslims.
Some means some. It's probably a minority, but it's not insignificant.
We two could probably find a compromise. But then I'm not interested in sport in TV.

We had an atheist Muslim in boarding school who loved pork and had quite some humor. Though he had different skin colour we didn't consider him as not one of us.
People in India often ask me how I like Indian culture. I always answer "What part of it? " Usually they want to know if I like Indian food. One Indian was surprised when he saw me eating with hands. Eating fish with hands is the most comfortable way to do it.
Somehow eating and dressing isn't as trivial as reason would suggest.

Why ridicule or applying the current day's morality standard on someone who lived >1000 yrs ago in another country with complete different culture? No argument killing people over their speech is high crime, but I don't get the merit, necessity or moral justification of deliberately ridiculing anyone (excluding universally acknowledged criminals/evil personalities and politicians probably an exception as they signed up for it when they chose their career), especially someone who is long dead and therefore not in a position to defend him/herself.

I am generally prejudiced against tribal societies. But then I believe economy, not religion decides the culture. India is getting richer, divorce rates increase. Nobody could afford earlier.

Islam has religion and politics mixed.
There is no way a secular society can accept it. But then it's not like Europe always had strict seperation of church and politics. The history of crusades limits my sense of superiority.

Another problem:
If you ask a Muslim what is his favorite surah he may not be able to answer. I speak of religious, not cultural Muslims. A religious friend of mine answered that one can't understand the koran unless one studies it.
Can I get upset if you say the theory of relativity is wrong? How to keep in highest respect something I don't understand?
The Holy Eucharist among Catholics may be an example.
You are right, it's not nice to make a mockery of the Eucharist. But if the Catholic Church prohibits tomorrow discussion over it, I will be the first to make some jokes.

I mustn't criticize Nixon because he can't defend himself?
Public figures, dead or alive, can be criticized.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:01 am
by Sokes
Speaking of "we against them":
Tribal religions are the first to have strict rules concerning food, idol worship, beard, dressing or even circumcision.
That was the way to unite the 12 tribes of Israel:
"We against them."

Just as it unites them internally, it alienates them from others.
Why to integrate those who follow rules designed to instill a sense of "us versus them"?

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:25 am
by L410Turbolet
Derico wrote:
This is one of the few times when I wish all western countries UNITED called out the outrageous hypocrisy from some government officials in Islamic regions. Every time things like this happen, and some even completely common sense criticism is leveled ( at the criminals which happen to claim to commit their lone crimes in the name of their religion), characters like Erdogan and others come out attacking everyone in the so-called West as 'anti-Islam'.

Erdogan would be stupid not to exploit the situation for his own gains.He can say pretty much whatever he wants, but little "Jupiter" must be really careful with his response, otherwise he will have half of Paris ablaze, again. At the same time, Erdogan running his mouth is a godsend in a way for Macron as it steers the media attention away from the failures of his and previous governments. It's not Erdogan's fault a significant part of French population wages a silent war against their nominally "own" country and its very basic principles. How come France which takes a great pride in secularism has completely surrendered to islam?

Derico wrote:
calling them out for the outrageous medievalism of their government policies and practices when it comes to freedom of religion in their countries to non-Muslims is a no brainer to me. Why is this not more forcefully pointed out I don't know.

Mediavalism (enabled by the pro islamist left) gaining foothold within Europe is the real problem.

Sokes wrote:
We had an atheist Muslim

If he was a an atheist, then he sure was no muslim.

Sokes wrote:
But then it's not like Europe always had strict seperation of church and politics. The history of crusades limits my sense of superiority.

Precisely because Europe spent centuries fighting senseless religious wars that cost many lives and stalled advancement of mankind, I see no reason to pussyfoot around an ideology dressed up as religion that does not even understand secular vs. religious.
What about crusades? They were Catholic Church way of dealing with enemies within and without.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:03 pm
by M564038
«Pro islamist left».

Lol.

It is such a extreme right wing fantasy that it is i possible to know wether one should cry or laugh.
The side that wants to hold government, society and public life open to religious feelings is, and have always been the right.
L410Turbolet wrote:
Derico wrote:
This is one of the few times when I wish all western countries UNITED called out the outrageous hypocrisy from some government officials in Islamic regions. Every time things like this happen, and some even completely common sense criticism is leveled ( at the criminals which happen to claim to commit their lone crimes in the name of their religion), characters like Erdogan and others come out attacking everyone in the so-called West as 'anti-Islam'.

Erdogan would be stupid not to exploit the situation for his own gains.He can say pretty much whatever he wants, but little "Jupiter" must be really careful with his response, otherwise he will have half of Paris ablaze, again. At the same time, Erdogan running his mouth is a godsend in a way for Macron as it steers the media attention away from the failures of his and previous governments. It's not Erdogan's fault a significant part of French population wages a silent war against their nominally "own" country and its very basic principles. How come France which takes a great pride in secularism has completely surrendered to islam?

Derico wrote:
calling them out for the outrageous medievalism of their government policies and practices when it comes to freedom of religion in their countries to non-Muslims is a no brainer to me. Why is this not more forcefully pointed out I don't know.

Mediavalism (enabled by the pro islamist left) gaining foothold within Europe is the real problem.

Sokes wrote:
We had an atheist Muslim

If he was a an atheist, then he sure was no muslim.

Sokes wrote:
But then it's not like Europe always had strict seperation of church and politics. The history of crusades limits my sense of superiority.

Precisely because Europe spent centuries fighting senseless religious wars that cost many lives and stalled advancement of mankind, I see no reason to pussyfoot around an ideology dressed up as religion that does not even understand secular vs. religious.
What about crusades? They were Catholic Church way of dealing with enemies within and without.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:09 pm
by sebolino
This imbecile of Erdogan insulted the French president for his stance against Islamic terrorism and now is offended by a cartoon of himself. He was not offended to call the French president "needing mental care" though.
And of course the turk government is calling the cartoon an act of racism.
In fact, that's the usual rethoric for islamists: if you critic or mock a muslim, whatever the reason why you do it, you're racist !

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:28 pm
by Aesma
Erdogan was supposed to be the good kind of Islamist, using Islam politically, but not going to extremes. Since at least the Syrian civil war it all changed though, he had no qualms about buying oil from ISIS, and is now helping it everywhere he can...

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:05 pm
by sebolino
M564038 wrote:
«Pro islamist left».

Lol.

It is such a extreme right wing fantasy that it is i possible to know wether one should cry or laugh.


Actually, a part of the left (extreme left and some socialists) tried to capture the votes of muslims by being, let's say, more than tolerant with intolerance and radical islamic views. It was very difficult during years to name things, we have some history with Algeria, and it was difficult to criticize Muslims or Islam in France.
Now that the Islamists have attacked the very foundation of the republic (laicity, education), people start talking.
Basically, some Islamists have taken the power over schools in some parts of France, and it's now difficult to teach biology and history, or to pronounce some words in school like "pigs". Some teachers can't talk about the story of the 3 little pigs, because of the muslim parents. It's not a joke, it's real !

Now, I hope things will really change, and school will become again a sanctuary of laicity and knowledge. And if we must hurt Muslims' (or Christians') feelings for that, I don't give a shit.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:28 pm
by Aesma
In fact in France many politicians, including Jean-Luc Mélenchon who got 19% of the vote at the last presidential election, were born in Northern Africa (mainly Algeria), but are of European ancestry, so that creates a very particular situation. They remember how Islam was there when they were kids, not what it is now for too many Muslims (including in Algeria).

The other day I was listening to Robert Ménard, another politician born in Algeria, but on the far right spectrum, and I found myself agreeing with most of what he was saying. When he was a kid in Oran, Muslim women didn't wear a hijab. Islam was the religion of people, not their politics or their way of life.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:37 pm
by L410Turbolet
M564038 wrote:
«Pro islamist left».

Lol.

It is such a extreme right wing fantasy that it is i possible to know wether one should cry or laugh.


You can cry all you want.. First time I heard the term was from Maryam Namazie, a very left wing secularist, describing a left wing demonstration in London where some moronic lesbians carried a banner "We Are All Hezbollah!".

Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:54 am
by Redd
Just thought I'd get this out here.

A woman has been decapitated in a suspected terror attack at a church in Nice, according to reports from the French police.

At least two people are believed to have been killed and several others injured after a knife attack near to the Notre Dame church.

The city's mayor Christian Estrosi tweeted: "Everything suggests a terrorist attack."

He also confirmed that a person had been arrested.





https://www.ladbible.com/news/news-woma ... uNDaXTdxrk

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:02 am
by Dutchy
Be intolerant of intolerance!

Extremism, no matter what the particular subject is, should be combated.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:58 am
by Jetty
“Enough is enough,” Estrosi said. “It’s time now for France to exonerate itself from the laws of peace in order to definitively wipe out Islamo-fascism from our territory.”

Major of Nice. :thumbsup:

https://www.reuters.com/article/france- ... SKBN27E18D

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:09 am
by Braybuddy
A man has used a "sharp tool" to attack a guard at the French consulate in Saudi:
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/g ... sulate-SPA

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:37 am
by sebolino
A new attack with a knife in Nice. 3 deads in a church.

https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/live/202 ... _3224.html

I'm waiting for the condolences of this idiot of Erdogan.

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:40 am
by sebolino
sebolino wrote:
A new attack with a knife in Nice. 3 deads in a church.

https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/live/202 ... _3224.html

I'm waiting for the condolences of this idiot of Erdogan.


But I'lm sure he will find it quite normal. Showing a picture is a crime, but killing people in a church is not so serious. What do you thing Erodgan ? Oh wait, am I racist saying that ?

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:57 am
by vrbarreto
Disgusting animals who should be dealt with severely.. The problem is how do you prevent it happening.. How do you stop large numbers of radicalised would be murderers simply going out and killing people whenever they perceive a slight? France must be one of the most secular countries in Western Europe but seems to bear the brunt of religious violence.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:35 pm
by PPVRA
Dutchy wrote:
Be intolerant of intolerance!

Extremism, no matter what the particular subject is, should be combated.


This is way more than “intolerance”. It’s straight up a crime. Be intolerant of crime.

Civilization only works if people can be civil. We dont have to love each other, but we do have to be civil. Don’t give passes to uncivilized behavior, to anybody, including members of the “multi-cultural” society.

Being a transplant myself from a country considered developing, I can tell you “developing” is not just economics—society there isn’t as “civil”, either. And sometimes there are a few people that can’t shake off that behavior at the border and it ends up transplanted to the new home. But it should never be tolerated.

Civil behavior must always be a precondition to joining and remaining a member of any society.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:54 pm
by N14AZ
Jetty wrote:
“Enough is enough,” Estrosi said. “It’s time now for France to exonerate itself from the laws of peace in order to definitively wipe out Islamo-fascism from our territory.”

Major of Nice. :thumbsup:

https://www.reuters.com/article/france- ... SKBN27E18D

If Muslim will not be able to stop this they will have a tough time in Europe.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:58 pm
by vrbarreto
PPVRA wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Be intolerant of intolerance!

Extremism, no matter what the particular subject is, should be combated.


This is way more than “intolerance”. It’s straight up a crime. Be intolerant of crime.

Civilization only works if people can be civil. We dont have to love each other, but we do have to be civil. Don’t give passes to uncivilized behavior, to anybody, including members of the “multi-cultural” society.

Being a transplant myself from a country considered developing, I can tell you “developing” is not just economics—society there isn’t as “civil”, either. And sometimes there are a few people that can’t shake off that behavior at the border and it ends up transplanted to the new home. But it should never be tolerated.

Civil behavior must always be a precondition to joining and remaining a member of any society
.


The problem is what do you do about the people who were born in the country and may be 2nd or even 3rd generation.. You can't deport them back to the country of their parents or grandparent's origin. They must be getting radicalised somewhere... Those areas need to be explored and shutdown or countered somehow. It also doesn't help with 'leaders' like Erdogan stirring up faux outrage primarily for consumption at home but having some effect on those overseas..

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:58 pm
by Dahlgardo
vrbarreto wrote:
Disgusting animals who should be dealt with severely.. The problem is how do you prevent it happening.. How do you stop large numbers of radicalised would be murderers simply going out and killing people whenever they perceive a slight? France must be one of the most secular countries in Western Europe but seems to bear the brunt of religious violence.


Perhaps there should be a debate the about values in certain scriptures and religous ideologies.
You will often find, that actions like these have scriptual justifications

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:59 pm
by WingsFan
Dutchy wrote:
Be intolerant of intolerance!

Extremism, no matter what the particular subject is, should be combated.


Exactly right. So far Macron has done a great job standing up to this nonsense. It is not unreasonable to expect immigrants to any country to relate to the foundational principle (not religion) of the society they wish to be a part of.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:12 pm
by vrbarreto
Dahlgardo wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
Disgusting animals who should be dealt with severely.. The problem is how do you prevent it happening.. How do you stop large numbers of radicalised would be murderers simply going out and killing people whenever they perceive a slight? France must be one of the most secular countries in Western Europe but seems to bear the brunt of religious violence.


Perhaps there should be a debate the about values in certain scriptures and religous ideologies.
You will often find, that actions like these have scriptual justifications


From what I gather there is no explicit statement in the Quran about images but there have been various Hadith's which have said something about the matter.. Also there seems to be disagreement between Sunni and Shia sections on what is acceptable or not.

And when it comes to depiction, I've not seen anything against Wikipedia against this page for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

It leaves one to wonder who is promoting and funding the extremist and intolerant to the point of killing version of Islam..

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:20 pm
by fallap
N14AZ wrote:
Jetty wrote:
“Enough is enough,” Estrosi said. “It’s time now for France to exonerate itself from the laws of peace in order to definitively wipe out Islamo-fascism from our territory.”

Major of Nice. :thumbsup:

https://www.reuters.com/article/france- ... SKBN27E18D

If Muslim will not be able to stop this they will have a tough time in Europe.


Just how much individual responsibility does the average civilized Muslim have over radical Muslims' actions? If the majority of Muslims will face a hard time in Europe, it will be on behalf of people and politicians unable to make the difference.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:30 pm
by casinterest
Condolences to the family and friends of the victims

A tragic incident, and the perpetrator must be punished, it is a gruesome and it was terrible ,but they have the suspect and they can learn if there are other companions of this murderer to be worried about .

Re: Teacher Murdered in Paris Over Cartoon

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:39 pm
by L410Turbolet
sebolino wrote:
Basically, some Islamists have taken the power over schools in some parts of France, and it's now difficult to teach biology and history, or to pronounce some words in school like "pigs". Some teachers can't talk about the story of the 3 little pigs, because of the muslim parents. It's not a joke, it's real !

PC politicans have been using the "islamist" or "political islam" trying to differentiate. If someone prohibits his daughter to take coed swimming classes or objects to school curriculum based on his religiouos sensitivities... is he/she still only a deeply religious "concerned parent" or an islamist?

sebolino wrote:
I hope things will really change, and school will become again a sanctuary of laicity and knowledge. And if we must hurt Muslims' (or Christians') feelings for that, I don't give a shit.

Any idea how to achieve it, without risking a civil war?

Aesma wrote:
Erdogan was supposed to be the good kind of Islamist, using Islam politically, but not going to extremes.

He was quite explicit about his goals: "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers..." This quote is from 1998. 22 years ago.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:43 pm
by sebolino
The problem will be all the French citizen declaring more or less that it's a good thing for whatever reason (skin color, religion, attitude ...).
Our society is sick, full of extremists and haters.

Some people in France consider it normal to kill, but a crime to show a picture. I don't really know what we should do with such idiots, but we need to find something. Education would be the way, but it's a bit late, now that the French education system has been in many places infiltrated by Islamists.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:01 pm
by PPVRA
Dahlgardo wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
Disgusting animals who should be dealt with severely.. The problem is how do you prevent it happening.. How do you stop large numbers of radicalised would be murderers simply going out and killing people whenever they perceive a slight? France must be one of the most secular countries in Western Europe but seems to bear the brunt of religious violence.


Perhaps there should be a debate the about values in certain scriptures and religous ideologies.
You will often find, that actions like these have scriptual justifications


I don’t see extremists like monks and nuns shooting up synagogues and mosques. These extremists are civilized.

We need to be careful how to define “extremists” and “intolerance”. They should never be considered synonymous with a crime. There’s no exact definition and it’s mostly a matter of opinion.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:40 pm
by LabQuest
France needs to bring back the guillotine.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:49 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
LabQuest wrote:
France needs to bring back the guillotine.


Irony much?

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:54 pm
by Aaron747
vrbarreto wrote:
Dahlgardo wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
Disgusting animals who should be dealt with severely.. The problem is how do you prevent it happening.. How do you stop large numbers of radicalised would be murderers simply going out and killing people whenever they perceive a slight? France must be one of the most secular countries in Western Europe but seems to bear the brunt of religious violence.


Perhaps there should be a debate the about values in certain scriptures and religous ideologies.
You will often find, that actions like these have scriptual justifications


From what I gather there is no explicit statement in the Quran about images but there have been various Hadith's which have said something about the matter.. Also there seems to be disagreement between Sunni and Shia sections on what is acceptable or not.

And when it comes to depiction, I've not seen anything against Wikipedia against this page for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

It leaves one to wonder who is promoting and funding the extremist and intolerant to the point of killing version of Islam..


What is 'acceptable' seems awfully irrelevant in the context of choosing to live in largely secular societies.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:02 pm
by marcelh
vrbarreto wrote:
Disgusting animals who should be dealt with severely.. The problem is how do you prevent it happening.. How do you stop large numbers of radicalised would be murderers simply going out and killing people whenever they perceive a slight? France must be one of the most secular countries in Western Europe but seems to bear the brunt of religious violence.

You have to understand why people radicalize. And the western (and US) foreign policy on the last decades hasn’t helped....

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:46 pm
by N14AZ
fallap wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Jetty wrote:
“Enough is enough,” Estrosi said. “It’s time now for France to exonerate itself from the laws of peace in order to definitively wipe out Islamo-fascism from our territory.”

Major of Nice. :thumbsup:

https://www.reuters.com/article/france- ... SKBN27E18D

If Muslim will not be able to stop this they will have a tough time in Europe.


Just how much individual responsibility does the average civilized Muslim have over radical Muslims' actions? If the majority of Muslims will face a hard time in Europe, it will be on behalf of people and politicians unable to make the difference.

Of course there is a difference. But all these terrorists have fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters and friends. These terrorists will not be impressed by what Macron now says or does. But maybe they would listen to what their families say. I think that they can just try to avoid acts like this from within their community. That‘s what I tried to say.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:50 pm
by WingsFan
Dahlgardo wrote:
vrbarreto wrote:
Disgusting animals who should be dealt with severely.. The problem is how do you prevent it happening.. How do you stop large numbers of radicalised would be murderers simply going out and killing people whenever they perceive a slight? France must be one of the most secular countries in Western Europe but seems to bear the brunt of religious violence.


Perhaps there should be a debate the about values in certain scriptures and religous ideologies.
You will often find, that actions like these have scriptual justifications


Debating scriptures is a dead-end street when scriptures themselves are taken as absolute literal truth.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:05 pm
by Dahlgardo
WingsFan wrote:
Debating scriptures is a dead-end street when scriptures themselves are taken as absolute literal truth.


Perhaps you have noticed, that debating, questioning and critizising certain religious texts and dogma is a quite risky and dangerous business.

But in this day and age hurt feelings are more important than progress

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:09 pm
by Aaron747
Dahlgardo wrote:
WingsFan wrote:
Debating scriptures is a dead-end street when scriptures themselves are taken as absolute literal truth.


Perhaps you have noticed, that debating, questioning and critizising certain religious texts and dogma is a quite risky and dangerous business.

But in this day and age hurt feelings are more important than progress


To wit: in this day and age simplistic absolutisms are more important than nuance.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:29 pm
by Kiwirob
N14AZ wrote:
Jetty wrote:
“Enough is enough,” Estrosi said. “It’s time now for France to exonerate itself from the laws of peace in order to definitively wipe out Islamo-fascism from our territory.”

Major of Nice. :thumbsup:

https://www.reuters.com/article/france- ... SKBN27E18D

If Muslim will not be able to stop this they will have a tough time in Europe.


The problem isn’t just the radical Muslims, it’s the apologists in the countries they move to that are also part of the problem. Instead of allowing the authourities to hunt down and eliminate the radicals we have to play nice.

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:30 pm
by MaverickM11
Maybe we could start by not jumping through our own rear end to absolve the #1 sponsor of terrorism's crown prince cutting up a journalist and dissolving his body in acid? :confused: Just thinking out loud...

Re: Another Terror Attack in France (Beheading)

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:35 pm
by c933103
I guess it answered my question from few days ago on should liberal democracy be applied to those that aren't ...