Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
aerosreenivas
Topic Author
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:40 pm

Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:08 pm

Hi all,

Only two days to go before the results will be known in this most important ever US Presidential Election in history. It will be interesting to know whether the current polls that are indicating the favor towards Biden will hold true.

Having witnessed keenly the results of the 2016 Presidential Election, I would like to ask all of you who have voted, this question.

Why the US Presidential Election Results are always determined by the 'Electoral College' and not the 'Popular Vote Only'? Coz last time Trump became president without winning the popular vote.

What if it happens again this time as well where Biden wins the 'Popular Vote' but not the 'Electoral College'?
 
apodino
Posts: 4092
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:42 pm

It's simple. The Constitution of the United States lays out the process for selecting a President, and that process is the Electoral College. The constitution gives the states the right to select their Electors by what ever method the legislature determines, and in every case save for Maine and Nebraska, Electors associated with a candidate are all awarded to the candidate who wins the most votes in that state.

I understand that if Biden wins the popular vote and Trump is reelected that there will be more calls from the left to abolish the Electoral College. However, given that this can only be done by constitutional amendment, and you need 38 states to ratify such an amendment, the likelihood that this will actually happen is very slim.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8325
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:44 pm

Short answer: The Founders realized that densely populated areas could heavily skew a national election. The Electoral College brings some parity to the system. For a detailed answer, just ask the Google machine. I’m sure there has been more written about the Electoral College than you would care to read.

By the way, Adams, Harrison, Hayes & GW Bush all lost the popular vote, but won the college, along with Trump.

For a pictorial representation of the Electoral College at work, look here:

https://brilliantmaps.com/2016-county-election-map/
 
bennett123
Posts: 10869
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:45 pm

Why did they set up the Electoral College in the first place?.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8325
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:58 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Why did they set up the Electoral College in the first place?.


Because The Founders felt that densely populated areas would have too much power in a national election.
 
User avatar
T18
Posts: 828
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:28 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:03 pm

fr8mech wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Why did they set up the Electoral College in the first place?.


Because The Founders felt that densely populated areas would have too much power in a national election.


Now its possible what I was taught was wrong, but I was also told in school that the system also made it easier to get a results as, some remote areas could have a hard time getting votes reported but that for the national level those results may not be required to determine who gets the electoral votes.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:08 pm

Slavery.



Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8325
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:08 pm

T18 wrote:

Now its possible what I was taught was wrong, but I was also told in school that the system also made it easier to get a results as, some remote areas could have a hard time getting votes reported but that for the national level those results may not be required to determine who gets the electoral votes.


Think that through. It doesn’t make sense. The electoral vote would be reported by horseback, just like the popular vote. The tally would come in at the same time.
 
User avatar
T18
Posts: 828
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:28 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:12 pm

fr8mech wrote:
T18 wrote:

Now its possible what I was taught was wrong, but I was also told in school that the system also made it easier to get a results as, some remote areas could have a hard time getting votes reported but that for the national level those results may not be required to determine who gets the electoral votes.


Think that through. It doesn’t make sense. The electoral vote would be reported by horseback, just like the popular vote. The tally would come in at the same time.


It wouldn't though, if for example Lansing does not have the 500 votes from Marquette yet but the votes they have show a 15000 vote lead for Harrison, they can report their electoral votes for Harrison and send it already. They only need those votes counted for Congressional seats not the white house so a winner can be named with out need to get every single vote counted if those ballots cannot change the outcome.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8711
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:33 pm

fr8mech wrote:
For a pictorial representation of the Electoral College at work, look here:

https://brilliantmaps.com/2016-county-election-map/

That doesn't tell me how many people live in each county or how much weight each state/county gets relative to the others. The only thing this map serves is to bolster the claim that "land doesn't vote".

Greeley County in rural KS where there's only about 1200 residents, compared to Johnson County on the border with MO where there are over 600k residents...this map shows them to the same scale, except Greeley is dark red (with no indication as to whether any Democrats voted there) compared to Johnson County in pink (only saying that Republicans carried the county by a small margin). Anyone who didn't know anything about the US would think that Greeley and Johnson balance each other out, despite the fact that the latter is THE most populous county of the state.

The other thing wrong with this map is that is only portrays counties based on the margin of victory, but not relative to the entire electorate. Clinton, for example, already won Wayne County, MI; just a little more votes in that county for her would have flipped the state entirely blue. Repeat the same thing for a couple of blue counties in FL, PA, and WI, which would have delivered the states to Clinton, and this map becomes worthless because at the end of the day the rural areas were overpowered by the urban areas. That sea of red over the heartland was beaten out by a couple of blue counties in a small number of states.
 
User avatar
JBo
Posts: 1835
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:23 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:49 pm

The Electoral College exists as the result of the Founders' desire to find that perfect balance between the United States being a "union of independent states" and a single, unified nation.

We don't vote for President as a country. Rather, each state votes for who they want for president, and then each state's vote is weighted through the Electoral College (the number of Electoral votes each state has is equivalent to the amount of Senators and Representatives it has in Congress). Whoever gets more than 50% of the Electoral total becomes President.

It made some sort of logical sense early on from the standpoint of balancing popular vote with each state having an equal voice, but it's increasingly problematic in modern society.

My personal opinion is that the EC should be abolished and the President elected on a straight popular vote because land doesn't vote, people do, so even if densely populated areas would decide the election, that's where the most people are. Everyone's individual voice would still count equally.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8385
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:54 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Why did they set up the Electoral College in the first place?.


You might look up the Connecticut Compromise during the drafting—has nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with balancing small states and large states. As today, NY and VA were dominant states and small states (Connecticut, for instance) didn’t want to be ruled by Virginians or New Yorkers.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10194
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:10 pm

The EC is also somewhat corrupt in that the Electors can change their individual minds and vote against the winners.

The original thoughts of population density are now unimportant. Lower density states are now called "Fly Over States" and we only get a few trivial TV commercials. If the EC was discarded (just like Slavery and Women's Suffrage) national politicians would have to pay attention to those smaller states. We also have some major shifting of populations (look at Texas) and the EC only allows for readjusting every 10 years. The popular vote adjusts every 4 years.

Finally, the thought of a politician loosing an election by almost 3,000,000 votes but being selected by the EC is so flabbergasting that the founders would probably burn you at the stake as a Witch.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:36 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Why did they set up the Electoral College in the first place?.


You might look up the Connecticut Compromise during the drafting—has nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with balancing small states and large states. As today, NY and VA were dominant states and small states (Connecticut, for instance) didn’t want to be ruled by Virginians or New Yorkers.

LOL the lengths people will go to remove the obvious uncomfortable bits from history... Slavery was literally baked into the calculation of representatives and thus electors for each state to get those 'small states' onboard.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8385
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:03 am

You’re the one that’s hilarious—Connecticut, which drove the compromise, wasn’t a slave state. It was and is about balancing the different states. But whatever you don’t get it.
 
910A
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:34 am

A certain political party has won the popular vote once since 1992. Having a minority party in control over a period of time can cause lasting damage to the institutions and the citizens faith in the government.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8385
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:34 am

910A wrote:
A certain political party has won the popular vote once since 1992. Having a minority party in control over a period of time can cause lasting damage to the institutions and the citizens faith in the government.


As can having majority party having unilateral control, cuts both ways.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16050
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:49 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Why did they set up the Electoral College in the first place?.


You might look up the Connecticut Compromise during the drafting—has nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with balancing small states and large states. As today, NY and VA were dominant states and small states (Connecticut, for instance) didn’t want to be ruled by Virginians or New Yorkers.


Those 18th century citizens of Connecticut might have had more specific objections if they could foresee how finance and industry would be concentrated in a few cities.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:12 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You’re the one that’s hilarious—Connecticut, which drove the compromise, wasn’t a slave state. It was and is about balancing the different states. But whatever you don’t get it.

The South would have never won an election because it had such a large non voting population. Maybe you can tell us why that is and what sort of compromise alleviated their concern?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16050
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:19 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You’re the one that’s hilarious—Connecticut, which drove the compromise, wasn’t a slave state. It was and is about balancing the different states. But whatever you don’t get it.

The South would have never won an election because it had such a large non voting population. Maybe you can tell us why that is and what sort of compromise alleviated their concern?


The Mason-Dixon line was fake news, don’tcha know? That’s just loony lib academic programming. Oh and the 3/5 compromise never happened. :lol:
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8385
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:26 am

Then, why wasn’t the EC ended during Reconstruction? Why hasn’t it been since? It serves us better, it balances power among the small and large states. No serious effort has ended it.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2381
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:36 am

T18 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
T18 wrote:

Now its possible what I was taught was wrong, but I was also told in school that the system also made it easier to get a results as, some remote areas could have a hard time getting votes reported but that for the national level those results may not be required to determine who gets the electoral votes.


Think that through. It doesn’t make sense. The electoral vote would be reported by horseback, just like the popular vote. The tally would come in at the same time.


It wouldn't though, if for example Lansing does not have the 500 votes from Marquette yet but the votes they have show a 15000 vote lead for Harrison, they can report their electoral votes for Harrison and send it already. They only need those votes counted for Congressional seats not the white house so a winner can be named with out need to get every single vote counted if those ballots cannot change the outcome.


Lansing didn’t exist and this teacher is a fool.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2381
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:38 am

910A wrote:
A certain political party has won the popular vote once since 1992. Having a minority party in control over a period of time can cause lasting damage to the institutions and the citizens faith in the government.


Which is why congress who makes and ratifies laws are directly elected to represent YOU while the President is elected to represent ALL.

Jesus education is a total failure.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2381
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:40 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You’re the one that’s hilarious—Connecticut, which drove the compromise, wasn’t a slave state. It was and is about balancing the different states. But whatever you don’t get it.


Some people can’t be fixed. They slept through the class or simply didn’t take it because it became an elective over the last 40 years. With it being an elective, most have a 6th grade education on this stuff.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2381
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:43 am

Ken777 wrote:
The EC is also somewhat corrupt in that the Electors can change their individual minds and vote against the winners.

The original thoughts of population density are now unimportant. Lower density states are now called "Fly Over States" and we only get a few trivial TV commercials. If the EC was discarded (just like Slavery and Women's Suffrage) national politicians would have to pay attention to those smaller states. We also have some major shifting of populations (look at Texas) and the EC only allows for readjusting every 10 years. The popular vote adjusts every 4 years.

Finally, the thought of a politician loosing an election by almost 3,000,000 votes but being selected by the EC is so flabbergasting that the founders would probably burn you at the stake as a Witch.


The founders would be saying. “See. We were right!”
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15814
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:46 am

The EC has several reasons behind it. Federalist Paper # 68, related writings and objections, gives the leading reasons and proposals of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._68
Part was to have the state legislatures to be check on voters, to assure 'learned people' would make the 'right' decisions. More likely was to prevent populists Presidents make decisions likely to hurt the rich for example with higher taxes. It was a compromise in part of small population states vs higher ones at the time of the writing of the Constitution, it also dealt with problems with the precursor of the Constitution, the Articles of Confederation. Of course that has failed in 2000, 2016 & potentially in 2020.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16050
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:13 am

DL717 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You’re the one that’s hilarious—Connecticut, which drove the compromise, wasn’t a slave state. It was and is about balancing the different states. But whatever you don’t get it.


Some people can’t be fixed. They slept through the class or simply didn’t take it because it became an elective over the last 40 years. With it being an elective, most have a 6th grade education on this stuff.


Claims like these are pretty stunning. I went to both private and public schools but was in exclusively public school from 6th grade on in California, from 1993 to 1999. My high school was in the top 25 in the state and the following courses were not electives: US History Pre-1900, US History Post-1900, World History Pre-1900, 20th Century World History and Civics. Our 20th century world class included a 6-week simulation using software our teacher had written in which groups of 3 were assigned a country and the goal of the class project was to take responsibility for goods and services and trade/negotiate with other nations to look after our citizens. We had to input the results of these trades in the software to acquire scoring in terms of economic performance. No model UN nonsense.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13952
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:14 am

Just remember when they were setting up everything, there were hopes that there would not be a 2 party system.



https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/604213/

James Madison, the preeminent theorist of the bunch and rightly called the father of the Constitution, supported the idea of an “extended republic” (a strong national government, as opposed to 13 loosely confederated states) for precisely this reason. In a small republic, he reasoned, factions could more easily unite into consistent governing majorities. But in a large republic, with more factions and more distance, a permanent majority with a permanent minority was less likely.

The Framers thought they were using the most advanced political theory of the time to prevent parties from forming. By separating powers across competing institutions, they thought a majority party would never form. Combine the two insights—a large, diverse republic with a separation of powers—and the hyper-partisanship that felled earlier republics would be averted. Or so they believed.

 
NYCVIE
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:10 am

It's just funny because trust and believe that if Texas goes blue in this election (if not this time sooner rather than later) Republicans will be first in line petitioning for Electoral College reform and this "Founding Fathers" rhetoric will go right out the window.

Aaron747 wrote:
No model UN nonsense.

Hey now, Model UN at least engages kids in government affairs and politics!
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14438
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:21 am

bennett123 wrote:
Why did they set up the Electoral College in the first place?.


Because states other than NY and CA have a say in who their leader is.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16050
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:33 am

NIKV69 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Why did they set up the Electoral College in the first place?.


Because states other than NY and CA have a say in who their leader is.


California did not exist until 1850. There was this little thing called the Mexican-American war from 1846-48.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5738
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:50 am

Ken777 wrote:
The EC is also somewhat corrupt in that the Electors can change their individual minds and vote against the winners.

The original thoughts of population density are now unimportant. Lower density states are now called "Fly Over States" and we only get a few trivial TV commercials. If the EC was discarded (just like Slavery and Women's Suffrage) national politicians would have to pay attention to those smaller states. We also have some major shifting of populations (look at Texas) and the EC only allows for readjusting every 10 years. The popular vote adjusts every 4 years.

Finally, the thought of a politician loosing an election by almost 3,000,000 votes but being selected by the EC is so flabbergasting that the founders would probably burn you at the stake as a Witch.


What the founding fathers of United States didn't expect is that, the line between states have now decreased importance to the level we're seeing now.
Also, I don't think group of people become less important just because they've done less economic activity?
And on the topic of flyover, the problem would better be describe as those flyovers are being divided into too small units.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3425
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:01 am

JBo wrote:
The Electoral College exists as the result of the Founders' desire to find that perfect balance between the United States being a "union of independent states" and a single, unified nation.

:checkmark:
People need to keep in mind that in the US, in addition to the direct voice of the people, the individual state polities are also afforded representation. That's also why we have a bicameral legislature where the people's chamber (House of Representatives) is balanced by a smaller upper chamber (the Senate).
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2046
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:08 am

flyguy89 wrote:
JBo wrote:
The Electoral College exists as the result of the Founders' desire to find that perfect balance between the United States being a "union of independent states" and a single, unified nation.

:checkmark:
People need to keep in mind that in the US, in addition to the direct voice of the people, the individual state polities are also afforded representation. That's also why we have a bicameral legislature where the people's chamber (House of Representatives) is balanced by a smaller upper chamber (the Senate).


But, given that the Senate is a "States' house", it seems a little odd that they also established this for the Presidency.

In my country we also have a "States' house", but when we were looking at replacing our head of state, both models were looking towards a form of majority vote.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16050
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:09 am

c933103 wrote:
Ken777 wrote:
The EC is also somewhat corrupt in that the Electors can change their individual minds and vote against the winners.

The original thoughts of population density are now unimportant. Lower density states are now called "Fly Over States" and we only get a few trivial TV commercials. If the EC was discarded (just like Slavery and Women's Suffrage) national politicians would have to pay attention to those smaller states. We also have some major shifting of populations (look at Texas) and the EC only allows for readjusting every 10 years. The popular vote adjusts every 4 years.

Finally, the thought of a politician loosing an election by almost 3,000,000 votes but being selected by the EC is so flabbergasting that the founders would probably burn you at the stake as a Witch.


What the founding fathers of United States didn't expect is that, the line between states have now decreased importance to the level we're seeing now.
Also, I don't think group of people become less important just because they've done less economic activity?
And on the topic of flyover, the problem would better be describe as those flyovers are being divided into too small units.


We have no way of knowing what the founders would think of today's economic distribution. It's just as likely they would be pleasantly surprised at the geographic spread as they would be dismayed by concentration of GDP in so few metropolitan areas - especially those with relative 'specializations'.

Image

Data and image source are in the image, based on BEA figures.

Behemoths like NYC and LA with over 20 million people notwithstanding, the combined figures for smaller metros such as Dallas + Houston or San Francisco + San Jose exceed the GDPs of all but five or six states.
 
User avatar
CarlosSi
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:29 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:35 am

Small states my butt.

Do you ever see any presidential candidate heavily campaign in Wyoming, Idaho, or Montana? Nope, they're going to campaign in the most swingy states, and not even the states they're probably going to win as much either.

If you decided it by most states won, then you end up having the minority rule the majority, or basically because there are so many red states, their way of life has to be yours too. Vice versa. This is why I sometimes think the federal government should really only have the power to /mandate/ certain things of the states, but have the states solve that issue on their own, else risk getting the boot or something. Just an idea.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3425
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:36 am

Kent350787 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
JBo wrote:
The Electoral College exists as the result of the Founders' desire to find that perfect balance between the United States being a "union of independent states" and a single, unified nation.

:checkmark:
People need to keep in mind that in the US, in addition to the direct voice of the people, the individual state polities are also afforded representation. That's also why we have a bicameral legislature where the people's chamber (House of Representatives) is balanced by a smaller upper chamber (the Senate).


But, given that the Senate is a "States' house", it seems a little odd that they also established this for the Presidency.

It's not especially odd I don't think when you consider that the Electoral College is a blend of the two approaches. One item to note as well is that currently the House is artificially capped at 435 seats despite the fact that the Constitution stipulates no such seat limit. IMO this cap should be lifted, which would then afford larger, more populated states more adequate representation in the EC.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13637
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:38 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You’re the one that’s hilarious—Connecticut, which drove the compromise, wasn’t a slave state. It was and is about balancing the different states. But whatever you don’t get it.


Times have changed, you aren't living in the 1700's anymore, what was relevant then is not relevant today. Also IMO the Constitution is a dead document, there's now so much bipartisanship that it's not possible to amend it. It was supposed to be a living document, it's not anymore.

Honestly the US has gotten itself into such a massive mess that the best think to do is to split into 3-4 new countries.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16050
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:39 am

As previously mentioned, indecency is one of the major items the world is watching of us now. Here's a late night Florida rally crowd encouraging Trump to fire Dr. Fauci:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/11/02/ ... -election/
 
aerosreenivas
Topic Author
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:40 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:11 am

Aaron747 wrote:
As previously mentioned, indecency is one of the major items the world is watching of us now. Here's a late night Florida rally crowd encouraging Trump to fire Dr. Fauci:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/11/02/ ... -election/


It is hardly surprising. Just like in 2016. All of Trump's 'Blind Supporters' were chanting 'Lock Her Up', demanding the arrest of Hilary Clinton.

Sadly, this time, Anthony Fauci is the victim of Trump's failure to handle the 'Pandemic' by not taking the advice of the 'Medical Expert' seriously earlier this year.
 
QF7
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:42 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:49 am

aerosreenivas wrote:
Hi all,

Only two days to go before the results will be known in this most important ever US Presidential Election in history. It will be interesting to know whether the current polls that are indicating the favor towards Biden will hold true.e

Having witnessed keenly the results of the 2016 Presidential Election, I would like to ask all of you who have voted, this question.

Why the US Presidential Election Results are always determined by the 'Electoral College' and not the 'Popular Vote Only'? Coz last time Trump became president without winning the popular vote.

What if it happens again this time as well where Biden wins the 'Popular Vote' but not the 'Electoral College'?

I don’t think anyone has answered your question directly, although several have come close.

The answer is that actually there is not a “popular vote.”

The individual voters do not vote directly (popularly) for the president. Instead they actually vote for a slate of candidates who will represent their state in the Electoral College. This group meets several weeks after Election Day to cast the real votes for president and vice president.

There are 538 electors divided among the States and District of Columbia by population, of which 270 is a simple majority and which is the number the media obsesses about.

Now, although there is not a “popular vote” in a legal sense it is certainly true that a majority of the total voters in the country have expressed a preference for one candidate or the other and when this popular preference differs with the result of the electoral college vote that’s where the arguing starts.

Hope this helps.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14438
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:09 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Times have changed, you aren't living in the 1700's anymore, what was relevant then is not relevant today. Also IMO the Constitution is a dead document, there's now so much bipartisanship that it's not possible to amend it. It was supposed to be a living document, it's not anymore.

Honestly the US has gotten itself into such a massive mess that the best think to do is to split into 3-4 new countries.


Texas
New Yorkafornia

That is only two :rotfl:
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13637
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:48 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Times have changed, you aren't living in the 1700's anymore, what was relevant then is not relevant today. Also IMO the Constitution is a dead document, there's now so much bipartisanship that it's not possible to amend it. It was supposed to be a living document, it's not anymore.

Honestly the US has gotten itself into such a massive mess that the best think to do is to split into 3-4 new countries.


Texas
New Yorkafornia

That is only two :rotfl:


Hawaii 3.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2381
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:15 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You’re the one that’s hilarious—Connecticut, which drove the compromise, wasn’t a slave state. It was and is about balancing the different states. But whatever you don’t get it.


Some people can’t be fixed. They slept through the class or simply didn’t take it because it became an elective over the last 40 years. With it being an elective, most have a 6th grade education on this stuff.


Claims like these are pretty stunning. I went to both private and public schools but was in exclusively public school from 6th grade on in California, from 1993 to 1999. My high school was in the top 25 in the state and the following courses were not electives: US History Pre-1900, US History Post-1900, World History Pre-1900, 20th Century World History and Civics. Our 20th century world class included a 6-week simulation using software our teacher had written in which groups of 3 were assigned a country and the goal of the class project was to take responsibility for goods and services and trade/negotiate with other nations to look after our citizens. We had to input the results of these trades in the software to acquire scoring in terms of economic performance. No model UN nonsense.


Stunning, but accurate. My aunt developed history curriculum for multiple entities and couldn’t believe how the demand for texts declined toward the end of her tenure due to the very issue of elective status implementation above grade school. Count yourself lucky.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2381
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:21 pm

DL717 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Some people can’t be fixed. They slept through the class or simply didn’t take it because it became an elective over the last 40 years. With it being an elective, most have a 6th grade education on this stuff.


Claims like these are pretty stunning. I went to both private and public schools but was in exclusively public school from 6th grade on in California, from 1993 to 1999. My high school was in the top 25 in the state and the following courses were not electives: US History Pre-1900, US History Post-1900, World History Pre-1900, 20th Century World History and Civics. Our 20th century world class included a 6-week simulation using software our teacher had written in which groups of 3 were assigned a country and the goal of the class project was to take responsibility for goods and services and trade/negotiate with other nations to look after our citizens. We had to input the results of these trades in the software to acquire scoring in terms of economic performance. No model UN nonsense.


Stunning, but accurate. My aunt developed history and civics curriculum for multiple entities and couldn’t believe how the demand for texts declined toward the end of her tenure due to the very issue of elective status implementation above grade school. Count yourself lucky.


Based on what you’ve said, it was much more intense than this:

https://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/gs/hs/hsgrtable.asp

Add in the number of kids that just pass the class and you get your answer.
 
bgm
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:30 pm

fr8mech wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Why did they set up the Electoral College in the first place?.


Because The Founders felt that densely populated areas would have too much power in a national election.


It's fundamentally wrong, because you're giving some Americans a stronger vote than others. Isn't everyone supposed to be equal?

This allows a minority to govern the majority. Not very democratic is it?
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13952
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:47 pm

bgm wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Why did they set up the Electoral College in the first place?.


Because The Founders felt that densely populated areas would have too much power in a national election.


It's fundamentally wrong, because you're giving some Americans a stronger vote than others. Isn't everyone supposed to be equal?

This allows a minority to govern the majority. Not very democratic is it?


You have to remember that one of the biggest fears when the Constitution was created was that there should be equal representation. (Remember the Boston Tea Party)? The electoral college ensured that smaller states sill had a big say in what occurred in the US. The popular vote was what lead to political parties( the founders wanted to avoid htis), and ultimately led to majority rule. The hope was with the electoral college, the minority still had a say.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2381
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:50 pm

bgm wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Why did they set up the Electoral College in the first place?.


Because The Founders felt that densely populated areas would have too much power in a national election.


It's fundamentally wrong, because you're giving some Americans a stronger vote than others. Isn't everyone supposed to be equal?

This allows a minority to govern the majority. Not very democratic is it?


So minorities don’t matter now?

You have representation by popular vote. It’s called the House and Senate.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8385
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:14 pm

True, there’s not ONE popular vote, there’s FIFTY popular votes.

Since 1900, we’ve had 64 years with a R President and 56 years with a D President. Only one was an outright racist, segregated the government—D Progressive Wilson. Pretty good representation of busybody Drmocrats trying to rule by fiat. Swing states have been all over the map, they change every few elections. No one thought MI, WI would vote R last time and he fought over this time.

The whole EC issue is because progressive Dems didn’t get their way and now want to turn the table over and kill the system that made them.

It’s NOT a living Constitution, that’s why the Founders put TWO ways to amend it—amendments starting in the Congress and a Convention established by the states. Instead of upending the system, try politics to persuade voters.

Lastly, I suggested break up and was roundly hooted, try again KiwiRob.
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2678
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Why US Presidential Election Results Are Determined By Electoral College And Not Popular Votes?

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:48 pm

Here's a Meme to help explain it to you...

Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ArchGuy1, Tokushima and 31 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos