Sam Newman (former Australian football player and self-appointed expert on everything) has commented on Joe Biden:
https://twitter.com/jedstur/status/1325277620603219970

He quickly deleted the controversial tweet but the internet being the internet, the tweet was captured and shared again. Disappointing. just no need for that kind of behaviour from anyone.

He just doesn't look look his normal cocksure self and he certainly does not look happy...

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-accuses-president-elect-biden-of-rushing-to-falsely-pose-as-the-winner

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

He just doesn't look look his normal cocksure self and he certainly does not look happy...

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-accuses-president-elect-biden-of-rushing-to-falsely-pose-as-the-winner

Tugg

Well I suppose his hat is right this time... With Biden at the helm...

Tugger wrote:

He just doesn't look look his normal cocksure self and he certainly does not look happy...
Tugg

He looks like he has been crying almost.

Well, you can say one thing, he will Make America Great Again by making such a mess of his re-election campaign.

Tugger wrote:

He just doesn't look look his normal cocksure self and he certainly does not look happy...

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-accuses-president-elect-biden-of-rushing-to-falsely-pose-as-the-winner

Tugg

I think 'Reality Bites' for Trump. He thought that he could rule the US like how Putin does in Russia. But he is so damn wrong.

Democracy in America will 'Always Thrive' for many more centuries to come.

Klaus wrote:

So will Trump be capable of resisting his urge to grab attention back to himself while Biden speaks?

I'm wondering more about inauguration day. Will he pull a sickie, or just go and play a round of golf instead? Will be interesting to see how he handles it.

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:

LMAO, some top notch trolling going on.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/liv ... 74eae13b6a

It’s unclear why the Trump campaign is holding a press conference at Four Seasons Total Landscaping in Philadelphia today, as the president announced this morning.

A Washington Post reporter could not reach anyone at the company for comment, but she did note that the Internet has started doing what it does best: trolling through online reviews.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Four%20 ... 65a3be,1,,,

And it is NOT the Four seasons hotel in PHL. https://twitter.com/FSPhiladelphia/stat ... 4964109312

To clarify, President Trump’s press conference will NOT be held at Four Seasons Hotel Philadelphia.
It will be held at Four Seasons Total Landscaping— no relation with the hotel.

Four Seasons Total Landscaping is apparently located next to an adult book store:

Richard Hall @_RichardHall 18m
I’ve arrived at Four Seasons Landscaping. It’s next to an adult book store called Fantasy Island.

https://twitter.com/_RichardHall/status ... 5535135744

Beat me to it, by some distance.
An almost perfect symbol of the whole tawdry and incompetent nature of Trump and those in his orbit.
Probably true also that they have financial issues, either way, it's straight out of Veep.
Trump was really a senior, richer version of Jonah Ryan really.

That look of thunder on his face, looks like he has just been fired from the apprentice.

Can anyone find for me the registration of Kamala's Bombardier GLEX (unlikely to actually be hers, obviously)? I'm suddenly curious.

https://twitter.com/Jillbiden46/status/ ... 2938620929

luckyone wrote:

zkojq wrote:

So, what are the chances of Trump actually attending Biden's inauguration?

flyguy89 wrote:

I have heard one possibility is that he will resign prior to Jan. 20 so that Pence become President and can grant him a pardon.

Surely that is only possible if he is convicted by that time? If the legal process happens after January 20th then I wouldn't think there was much he could do?

He can be given "a full and unconditional pardon for any crimes that he might have committed against the United States as president," which is the exact wording in President Ford's pardon of Nixon.

Man, that is some BS that it's legally possible to be pardoned for crimes that haven't actually been specified, charged with nor convicted. But don't worry, Donnie says he's here to drain the swamp, so I'm sure he wouldn't dream of doing such a thing.

LittleFokker wrote:

zkojq wrote:

So, what are the chances of Trump actually attending Biden's inauguration?

I think there's a good chance there won't be an inauguration ceremony. Maybe the swearing in ceremony might take place on the steps of the Supreme Court or outside the White House, but as long as COVID is present (which looks like it will still be the case in 2 months), there's no reason to hold a parade or large gathering of hundreds of thousands of people when the message of the campaign has been social distancing.

This got me thinking and I realised that socially distanced inauguration crowd would surely look substantially bigger than Donnie's "record" one from a few years back.

alfa164 wrote:

Ford pardoned Nixon prior to any criminal indictments (although Congress had started impeachment proceedings), but he demanded a "statement of contrition" - which Ford intended to insinuate an admission of guilt - before granting the pardon. In the end, Nixon's statement was less of contrition than and more a face-saving ("I was wrong in not acting more decisively and more forthrightly in dealing with Watergate...") gesture. Keep in mind that Ford's pardon covered "any crimes that (Nixon) might have committed against the United States as president'; it would not have covered crimes committed in other venues.

Was that pardon ever legally challenged? Can it be?

alfa164 wrote:

No one accused Nixon of any criminality outside his role in the White House; Trump, on the other hand, seems to be vulnerable to dealings that may have nothing to do with his presidency.

I think that there's a few crows coming home to roost with that one, hopefully.

alfa164 wrote:

Whether or not a "good, moral Christian" like Pence would be persuaded to pardon any and all potential criminality is an interesting question.

Wouldn't it be hilarious for Trump to resign a day early so that Pence could pardon him only for Pence to not deliver? Oh how joyous that would be!

LittleFokker wrote:

Also, I wonder if Obama will sneak in and leave a handwritten note of well wishes in the Resolute Desk since there's no chance Trump will continue that tradition that dates back to at least Kennedy (?).

A quick googling of said desk reminded me how FOX made a two or three day scandal out of Barack Obama once "disrespecting his office" by putting his feet on that desk. Oh the double standards!

https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/54c ... /image.jpg

cpd wrote:

I hope he does dig his heels in and refuses to give up without a huge fight, it will be all the more satisfying watching him fall heavily from, I don't know, I can't say grace because he has none.

I hope he tries to pull off a coup. Then he can subsequently be tried for treason. If many senior republicans lined up behind him and received similar treatment, that could be awfully convenient too.

cpd wrote:

Some guy on Twitter called Donald Trump wrote about losing with dignity:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 6670121985

There really is a tweet for literally everything. Personally, I'm looking forwards to the election results being certified, so that I can rip out the old "you lost, get over it" which a lot of Trumpsters seemed to spout copiously at the end of 2016.

art wrote:

CNN commentator thinks it likely that 3 states will have a recount and that would take several days. The fat lady has not even got on stage to sing or so it seems

Nothing wrong with recounts, though I do worry that the longer that this drags on for the more likely it is that a group of armed and deranged Trump supporters turn up to a re-count location and tries to violently stop "the election being stolen".

vhqpa wrote:

In close elections I don't find particular odd for it to take days to finalise the result. We had a state election (Queensland, Australia) 31 October. Even a week later there are still three close seats that haven't been determined, although it this case it won't change the outcome as Labor already has its majority. This is a much smaller jurisdiction with 3.2 million electors.

Likewise in New Zealand, the election and referendum was October 17, but special votes and out-of-electorate votes meant that the final tally was not done until last week (although several electorates could have recounts should one be requested). Those votes flipped three different seats, interestingly.

afcjets wrote:

Aesma wrote:

For anyone in doubt, Trump proving right now that he should have never been allowed in the GOP primary, never been elected, and never been allowed to stay in power that long. An indelible mark on those who let that happen or encouraged it.

AOC tweeted out yesterday calling for a list of Republicans who didn't submit over the years, has anyone called for a list of his supporters too? I think Will and Grace did a year or so ago or called for something similiar, but I don't think it materialized.

"Is anyone archiving these Trump sycophants for when they try to downplay or deny their complicity in the future? I foresee decent probability of many deleted Tweets, writings, photos in the future."

https://mobile.twitter.com/aoc/status/1 ... 6510595078

Seems reasonable enough. Politicians should be held accountable for their words and actions. Twitter shouldn't allow politicians to delete tweets. Of course if that were to happen then twitter would be devoid of politicians fairly quickly, so it makes sense for a third party to archive such data.

NIKV69 wrote:

Olddog wrote:

The fun part is that Kamala Harris should become the 47th president around 2022...

Lord help us. I am already putting together a contingency plan to move to Thailand a la Superfly.

An authoritarian monarchy that has SOCIALISED healthcare?

cpd wrote:

Sam Newman (former Australian football player and self-appointed expert on everything) has commented on Joe Biden:
https://twitter.com/jedstur/status/1325277620603219970

He quickly deleted the controversial tweet but the internet being the internet, the tweet was captured and shared again. Disappointing. just no need for that kind of behaviour from anyone.

Not related to this, but tweets under that one lead me to Malcolm Turnbill's twitter and, reading some of the content there I am now perplexed. Can you please explain to me why, now that Malcolm Turnbull has left office, he's suddenly moved to the left? Suddenly he's anti-Murdoch and pro environment and anti Gas. What happened or what am I missing?

https://twitter.com/InsidersABC/status/ ... 4342716417

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

I think once it reaches the SCOTUS, Trump will be declared the winner.

LOL what??? You realize that is catching lightning in a bottle not once, not twice, but in like 3 different states? Come on.

Affidavits have already been delivered to the DOJ that cheating occurred. It's easier to catch something that happens in almost every election to some degree than to catch lightning in a bottle..

afcjets wrote:

Affidavits have already been delivered to the DOJ that cheating occurred. It's easier to catch something that happens in almost every election to some degree than to catch lightning in a bottle..

There is a huge difference between finding some specific mistakes and finding several thousands to change the results.

afcjets wrote:

Affidavits have already been delivered to the DOJ that cheating occurred. It's easier to catch something that happens in almost every election to some degree than to catch lightning in a bottle..

As amicably as I can say it: let it go, It's over... The longer you clutch at false hopes, the longer and more painful the path to acceptance becomes.

Just curious as to what people think the odds are for the results of the election results in the US being contested in the supreme court?

Looking for the legal perspectives over the personal or political perspectives...if that's possible...lol

Less then 2%. First Trump needs to win AZ and GA in the regular count, both possible but very unlikely. Then he needs to find a legitimate issue in PA. Possible but unlikely as well. Besides the issue about the ballots that arrived late and aren’t going to be decisive there’s nothing yet.

zkojq wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

Olddog wrote:

The fun part is that Kamala Harris should become the 47th president around 2022...

Lord help us. I am already putting together a contingency plan to move to Thailand a la Superfly.

An authoritarian monarchy that has SOCIALISED healthcare?

LOL. You really couldn't make this shit up.

Braybuddy wrote:

Klaus wrote:

So will Trump be capable of resisting his urge to grab attention back to himself while Biden speaks?

I'm wondering more about inauguration day. Will he pull a sickie, or just go and play a round of golf instead? Will be interesting to see how he handles it.

Depends on whether he can scrape together some shred of dignity.

Looking at his twitter today it's not looking good, however: After suffering his election defeat he seems intent on turning himself from a regular defeated politician into a whiny, pathetic loser.

Nobody could do that to him than he himself.

Olddog wrote:

afcjets wrote:

Affidavits have already been delivered to the DOJ that cheating occurred. It's easier to catch something that happens in almost every election to some degree than to catch lightning in a bottle..

There is a huge difference between finding some specific mistakes and finding several thousands to change the results.

casinterest wrote:

You have to let him go on his wild goose chase. The right wing sites are all passing around these claims.

When all the is said and done, there will be few if any cheating uncovered. More likely errors made accidentally, and they will not be enough to overcome the vote totals.

Something that none of you have mentioned yet; in a close result, accidental errors are just as likely to benefit Biden as Trump. I've seen it with my own eyes; here are 10 votes in pile A that should be in pile B, and here are 11 votes that are the other way around. After days of wrangling, the end result is still the same.

Of course, if there is any deliberate fraud, then my money is on it being by GOP supporters, and Trump's litigation will (once again) more likely disadvantage his own ilk - as if he cares one iota for his loyal followers....

marcelh wrote:

emperortk wrote:

Elkadad313 wrote:

What is really scary is that if Trump had handled the Covod-19 crisis a little differently the moron would have won – really scary how close it was.

This was never going to happen though. The quintessence of Trump is dishonesty, blustering showmanship, a pompous disdain for hard work and tough decisions, belief in conspiracies, incapacity to admit personal shortcomings and the superior knowledge or expertise of others, poor judgment, and above all, a bumbling incompetence. All these things make him a piss-poor leader. In order to handle covid differently, he would literally have to have been a different person.

And he has attracted more than 70 million voters. It tells me a lot about the state of mind of the US society....

So true.

The best way I can explain it is that people in the back half of the classroom get a vote too, and they've been empowered by decades of talk radio, cable TV news, and social media. As a leftie, I have to say I'm impressed by their echo chamber. The pickup truck with dozens of Trump flags running up and down the street is a real thing. Such vehicles were quite common here in my cozy northeast state that votes blue at the national level. The Trumpistas are convinced they are right and they aren't going away.

The scary thing about stupid people is that they don't know that they're stupid.

Biden's "win" is the closest thing you can get to a loss yet still be a win. He's another machine candidate devoid of new ideas just like Hillary was before him. His main "feature" was he didn't draw the virulent hate (or at least not to the same degree) as Hillary did.

The odd thing about this election is the electoral college "all or nothing" system is set up to make close elections look like landslides, and this one does not look like a landslide. The country is truly divided.

The Dems gotta start right now and groom some decent candidates for the future, young, intelligent, enthusiastic, fresh. just like Obama was. More stale machine candidates like Hillary and Joe are going to lead to a disastrous future. Hopefully Kamala finds a way to shine.

It's hard to see how this is not a 'one and done' presidency. Joe is an aging man devoid of new ideas, yet the Dems will have no choice but to run him again or hope he can hand off things in a good state of affairs to Kamala, but chances are good by then they will have lots of easy ways to be attacked, it's a natural advantage of the non-incumbent. All the GOP will need is a younger energetic candidate who starts early and attacks each area of weakness and rallies the pickup truck crowd. The obvious candidate would be Trump Jr but I kinda doubt he'll want to spend another big chunk of his life on politics. Time will tell.

I wish I was more optimistic for the future, but I am not. Some times elections sort things out and help us move on (Ford -> Carter, Carter -> Reagan, Bush -> Obama) but this doesn't feel like that. The GOP will be there to put spokes in the wheels, that's just what they do. Our constitutional system assumes that the individuals involved feel the need to reach consensus, but that just isn't the case these days. It's easy for me to project this administration setting up a malaise like Carter did, making it easy for the GOP to say we need someone else in the job.

...and while the pandemic crisis is escalating and he still hasn't conceded yet, Trump goes golfing again today...!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/liv ... ve-updates

The latest update is that the current president appears to have gone golfing for the second day in a row. His motorcade recently arrived at Trump National Golf Club, in Sterling, Virgina, according to a White House reporter.

A handful of demonstrators lined the sidewalks near the entrance of the club. Two signs read: “ORANGE CRUSHED” and “TRUMPTY DUMPTY HAD A GREAT FALL.”

aaden wrote:

Just curious as to what people think the odds are for the results of the election results in the US being contested in the supreme court?

The courts, especially the US Supreme Court, must find that the lawsuit has standing - i.e. that it is about something over which they have power.

You cannot take a traffic ticket to federal court. It's a state matter, not something which involves a federal law.

Election laws, and most of the charges of fraud so far are state matters. Not violations of Federal Law.

The Trump Campaign has already asked the Supreme Court for at least one decision, and the Court said that it has no jurisdiction in that matter. (The Trump for President Campaign being able to be added to the State of Pennsylvania GOP lawsuit against the elections officials in Philadelphia). This basically affirmed a state court decision that the GOP had a right to sue for relief, the Trump Campaign as a separate organization did not. Trump's name was placed on the ballot by the state GOP, not by the Trump Campaign.

One of the issues in 2000 was that the Gore campaign and the Bush campaign suits had to go through state courts, the state supreme court, the local federal court, the district appeals court - all the steps before getting the the US Supreme Court. That took a lot of time.

Trump has said he will go directly to the US Supreme Court. For over 200 years the Supreme Court has stressed the proper appeals channels must be followed. The court has take very, very few cases directly.

That said, given Donald Trump's history over most of his life, he may well challenge the decisions and appeal all the way to the Supreme Court. That is his right.

The Supreme Court does not have to hear his appeal. The vast majority of appeals to the Supreme Court are denied. The Court refuses to hear the case.

As an example, after the Congress votes to accepted the Electoral College vote, the Supreme Court could refuse to hear any appeals from Trump. Saying according to the Constitution, Biden has been elected President. The Supreme Court has no power to overturn the vote as accepted by Congress.

Klaus wrote:

...and while the pandemic crisis is escalating and he still hasn't conceded yet, Trump goes golfing again today...!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/liv ... ve-updates

The latest update is that the current president appears to have gone golfing for the second day in a row. His motorcade recently arrived at Trump National Golf Club, in Sterling, Virgina, according to a White House reporter.

A handful of demonstrators lined the sidewalks near the entrance of the club. Two signs read: “ORANGE CRUSHED” and “TRUMPTY DUMPTY HAD A GREAT FALL.”

As far as I'm concerned, he can go golfing every day until Jan 20. The other option is him starting a scorched earth policy and leave things as chaotic as possible for the next administration, and he's exactly the kind of guy to do this out of spite.
Other things he may do while he still can is a pardon flurry to all the criminals who have helped him through the years, fire everyone in the administration who was not completely loyal to him, go on an executive order rampage... all kinds of nasty and immoral stuff from a nasty and immoral individual.

zkojq wrote:

Can anyone find for me the registration of Kamala's Bombardier GLEX (unlikely to actually be hers, obviously)? I'm suddenly curious.

Almost certainly a charter by the campaign. That way it is a legal campaign cost.

zkojq wrote:

alfa164 wrote:

Ford pardoned Nixon prior to any criminal indictments (although Congress had started impeachment proceedings), but he demanded a "statement of contrition" - which Ford intended to insinuate an admission of guilt - before granting the pardon. In the end, Nixon's statement was less of contrition than and more a face-saving ("I was wrong in not acting more decisively and more forthrightly in dealing with Watergate...") gesture. Keep in mind that Ford's pardon covered "any crimes that (Nixon) might have committed against the United States as president'; it would not have covered crimes committed in other venues.

Was that pardon ever legally challenged? Can it be?

That one no. Other pardons have been on state and federal level and generally the courts have ruled the governor/ president has that power.

I was stationed in the Philippines when Nixon resigned. My perception of the time, and talking with my family and friends a few weeks before while I was in the US - the country wanted the mess to be over. Adding a court case would just drag it on. Nixon went somewhat quietly into obscurity.

Taking Donald Trump into criminal court will only further divide the country, inflame his more stringent supporters, make his prosecution look childish and petty. Anyone reasonable does not want to make the current division within the US worse.

There may be some civil charges and cases, but I doubt any criminal charges will ever go to court.

Francoflier wrote:

Other things he may do while he still can is a pardon flurry to all the criminals who have helped him through the years,

I think that's a certainty to be expected, basically giving the finger to the country.

The catch is that the president can only pardon people for federal crimes as far as I'm aware, and many if not most of his legal issues are actually not on the federal level but under state jurisdictions where a presidential pardon cannot reach.

fire everyone in the administration who was not completely loyal to him, go on an executive order rampage... all kinds of nasty and immoral stuff from a nasty and immoral individual.

Indeed, he's full of spite, but he's also shocked and depressed, and he'll find that there will be unexpected resistance against such orders because all of his underlings and the nonpolitical administrations know he's on his way out and can't really make them go along with his more insane orders any more, and they need to look out for themselves first and foremost, or ideally even for the country.

Trump has never given any loyalty and he will also receive none. All his relationships are purely transactional, and this transaction is now up and done.

In the same lack of spirit, even the republican party will at some point send a delegation now that Trump has turned from an asset into a liability in their eyes.

rfields5421 wrote:

zkojq wrote:

Can anyone find for me the registration of Kamala's Bombardier GLEX (unlikely to actually be hers, obviously)? I'm suddenly curious.

Almost certainly a charter by the campaign. That way it is a legal campaign cost..

EDIT of the above post after the forum edit deadline.

Found this link - https://jettip.net/blog/tracking-the-2020-us-presidential-campaign-aircraft

aaden wrote:

Just curious as to what people think the odds are for the results of the election results in the US being contested in the supreme court?

Slim to none......and slim just left town.

casinterest wrote:

Their is a level of programming that I haven't seen in years involved in the warped sense of identity that is pervasive in the echo chamber. What blows me away is that the same generation that used to admonish mine about watching too much TV or MTV because it warps your brain, has fallen victim to that very Medium. Especially the loudmouthed Opinion figureheads that are only working to keep you hooked to sell the junk that are in the ads between the hooks. I don't know how we get out of it. Crisis after manufactured crisis by Tucker Carlson, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, Fox and Friends and others go unchallenged by these folks. They just go to the next news source to reaffirm their beliefs, included the aforementioned Facebook site. "We the people" for those of you interested in the lunacy.


Are the right wingers so far out of touch with reality to not realize that the very institution of democracy that they are attacking cannot occur if they are actively taking part? I am rather certain their is an even mix of political parties on all the volunteer levels of the election. The amount of distrust from outside of that process is staggering . However I suspect it is because there are maybe the people in the back half of the class that don't realize class is and has been in session.

To a certain extent I'm not surprised by the rhetoric, and it is not all right wingers.

Richard Nixon popularized the phrase "Silent Majority" over 50 years ago. I'm from that background where people feel they have no voice in how the country is run, mostly conservatives.

BLM is a movement which is largely focused on given a voice to people who feel they have not been heard.

Heck, I remember watching MLK (never in person unfortunately) speaking of giving black people a voice in America.

The movement of of talk radio to reached out to people with conservative opinions, to right wing opinions was a turning point. Then Murdoch decided that was an untapped market, and founded a 'News' channel to feed their own opinions back to them.

Rural people back before I was born 68 years ago felt the country was run by 'rich northeast ivy league liberals'. And what news media there was never addressed their real concerns. Even FDR was a rich person who only dropped crumbs to the poor people.

The internet has done many things, many good, many bad. One of my best MS Flight Simulator buddies near a couple decades ago was from Vietnam. We figured out that he might have fired some of the 122mm rockets that I had to dodge at Danang in September and October 1972. We had grown and understood the world changes.

Most of the people in the world do not like change because of the uncertainty in my opinion. And they really do not like being told their opinions and values are old-fashioned, unrealistic, and impractical. LIBERALS as well as conservatives.

The internet has given them a voice, a place to speak what many have kept inside for 30, 40, 50 or more years. (Social media IMHO is just an extension of the internet technology/ concept).

EVERYONE listens to the figureheads that support their opinion, and dismisses the others as idiots.

I don't find Trump supporters to any less grounded in reality or stupid than Bernie Sanders supporters. They just have a different opinion and a value by which they judge things to be right or wrong. People will never agree on everything, and as long as the loudest voices, with the most money, are on the extremes - there will be no reasonable accommodation/ common ground.

MODS - I think it is about time to move these type discussions to another thread, or delete the whole bunch.

This thread should only be about the election and the process - which still continues.

ER757 wrote:

aaden wrote:

Just curious as to what people think the odds are for the results of the election results in the US being contested in the supreme court?

Slim to none......and slim just left town.

Why do you think that?

Every election, I wonder the same things:

how can media outlets call races with only like 5% or 6% of ballots counted?
how can media outlets know how many total ballots have been cast to say there are 5% or 6% of ballots counted?

rfields5421 wrote:

I was stationed in the Philippines when Nixon resigned. My perception of the time, and talking with my family and friends a few weeks before while I was in the US - the country wanted the mess to be over. Adding a court case would just drag it on. Nixon went somewhat quietly into obscurity.

Taking Donald Trump into criminal court will only further divide the country, inflame his more stringent supporters, make his prosecution look childish and petty. Anyone reasonable does not want to make the current division within the US worse.

There may be some civil charges and cases, but I doubt any criminal charges will ever go to court.

For background, I was a school kid during the Nixon era but was pretty engaged politically especially considering my age. Watergate was something that could not be ignored.

I think the difference between then and now is that pretty much everyone was convinced Nixon was unsuitable and had to go. Here we see an electorate that is almost split 50:50 on Trump's suitability.

Personally I think if there is a strong case showing Trump or his minions are guilty of meaningful crimes it should be pursued. The pain of divisiveness is worth the gain of having convictions showing they were criminal, if that is the case. If we tolerate such crimes it'll only encourage future bad deeds. Thing is, I'm not sure there is such a case to be made.

As per my previous post, I think it's a bad thing that this election wasn't a strong win for Biden so the books could be closed on the Trump era. Instead the Trumpers will be able to point at how close things were and be ready to pounce on any/all foibles of the new administration.

rfields5421 wrote:

I don't find Trump supporters to any less grounded in reality or stupid than Bernie Sanders supporters. They just have a different opinion and a value by which they judge things to be right or wrong. People will never agree on everything, and as long as the loudest voices, with the most money, are on the extremes - there will be no reasonable accommodation/ common ground.

That relativism is just not supported by facts.

Especially the current republican echo chamber is mostly fact-free propaganda which deflates the moment it comes into contact with reality. It is not at all a matter of "both sides are about equal".

Where I agree with you, however, is that it's not a matter of people on one or the other side being "stupid". It is rather a matter of choosing to turn one's back to reality and joining a cult of wholly made-up ideology.

Under pressure from media moguls US media oversight has been kept crippled to the point that the same level of completely unchecked propaganda that brought Hitler into power in 1933's Germany can now pose as "journalism" and "opinion" with absolute zero accountability.

The name today is Rupert Murdoch instead of Alfred Hugenberg, but the same mechanisms are at work right now that were back then: If you pump enough money into propaganda for long enough, it will achieve the desired effect.

And "mainstream" conservatives in the US today are behaving the exact same way as they did in 1933: "As long as he's closer to our goals than to the ones of the other guys, we'll fully support any authoritarian to the hilt!"

The current situation is disturbingly similar today, and it is actually mostly a matter of toxic propaganda being pushed aggressively into the media, again appealing to the lowest instincts while trying to maintain at least some veneer of respectability on the surface.

And this is not solved with Trump's exit: Rupert Murdoch and the other hard-right media moguls are still all there, and they don't care what people actually want; They know if they push hard enough for long enough, they will sway more and more people to whatever ideology they're peddling.

And it should be no surprise that this ideology consists mostly of support for the interests of those media moguls, only combined with enough distractions to keep it going without being all too obvious. Racism, xenophobia and all other kinds of hatreds are perfect to keep people's minds occupied while the harvest is reaped by those pushing the whole thing forwards.

seb146 wrote:

Every election, I wonder the same things:

how can media outlets call races with only like 5% or 6% of ballots counted?
how can media outlets know how many total ballots have been cast to say there are 5% or 6% of ballots counted?

Your second question is easy. Ballots get counted as they are dropped into the box, or as they arrive by mail. So you know the total number of votes.

The first question is easy, too - depending on the situation. In case there is no mail-in voting, only voting in person, you can do exit polls. They are highly reliable. You ask the voters what they've voted, and which party they're affiliated with. You can also ask them how old they are. Given this data, you can guess whether there has been a huge shift, or not.

A Swiss example: When a few villages with lots of affluent, conservative people vote 30% "Yes" to a environmental protection measure, you can be 100% sure that the neighboring city (with much more and more liberal voters) will vote Yes.

Revelation wrote:

I think the difference between then and now is that pretty much everyone was convinced Nixon was unsuitable and had to go. Here we see an electorate that is almost split 50:50 on Trump's suitability.

I was more focused on pre-Watergate, especially the 72 election.

Now to compare the 72 election to the 2020 election - Nixon/ Trump is a bit of a stretch, but not too far.

McGovern made Bernie Sanders look like a conservative though as far as the 'silent majority' were concerned.

By the summer of 74, true most of America thought Nixon had to go.

One of the days I was proudest to be an American was when Nixon resigned. To show that we could as a nation go to the length of forcing a President out of office without massive riots, thousands of people killed, etc. As I said I was in the Philippines at the time. The anger at Marcos was still largely underground. They would not have dared to be openly against him, until after Nixon was forced out.

I've had the 'privilege' to see one nation destroyed, another racked with violence during a civil war, another near civil war (we ain't even close in the US today), and yet see another nation born in peace (Antigua and Barbuda's independence).

Always, I've taken pride in our system where we can make such drastic changes in leadership such as 2000, 2008, 2016 mainly peacefully. That is simply impossible in too much of the world.

Back at the University of Arkansas in the fall of 1970, one of my professors in Western Civilization class answered a question from a true freedom for everything near communist hippie about why it was relevant. His answer was long, but one thing he said always stuck with me "About 3/4 of the leaders of the nations of the world leave office in a coffin."

afcjets wrote:

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

I think once it reaches the SCOTUS, Trump will be declared the winner.

LOL what??? You realize that is catching lightning in a bottle not once, not twice, but in like 3 different states? Come on.

Affidavits have already been delivered to the DOJ that cheating occurred. It's easier to catch something that happens in almost every election to some degree than to catch lightning in a bottle..

It's so funny hearing people say 'well once it reaches the Supreme Court yadda yadda yadda'. Once what reaches the Supreme Court? You need an actual case to be contested up to the Supreme Court. Donald Trump's campaign have filed 10 lawsuits so far all of which merely impact only the oversight of ballot counting or a handful of votes that they allege have been mishandled. All ten of them have already been thrown out, and based on their desperate fundraising efforts and outstanding campaign debt the purse is going to run empty soon.

I think they should do a country wide recount so we can all watch him lose a second time.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Aesma wrote:

flyguy89 wrote:

That is quite an exaggeration really. Looking at the policies supported by most of the Democratic field during the primary (Sanders, Warren, Harris, etc.) they certainly would not be center right even in Europe- universal single-payer healthcare, free university, wealth taxes, doubling the national minimum wage, Green New Deal, high corporate income taxes, federal job guarantees, universal basic income, reparations...many of these are center left even by European standards. Granted a lot of these aren't the formal planks Biden ended up running on, but they're certainly not outside of the mainstream of Democratic Party politics.

In my country they're not left or right propositions, they're a concrete reality no party even talks about changing.

Because France is a center left country by European standards. Must have missed though France passing universal basic income and slavery reparations.

casinterest wrote:

rfields5421 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Their is a level of programming that I haven't seen in years involved in the warped sense of identity that is pervasive in the echo chamber. What blows me away is that the same generation that used to admonish mine about watching too much TV or MTV because it warps your brain, has fallen victim to that very Medium. Especially the loudmouthed Opinion figureheads that are only working to keep you hooked to sell the junk that are in the ads between the hooks. I don't know how we get out of it. Crisis after manufactured crisis by Tucker Carlson, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, Fox and Friends and others go unchallenged by these folks. They just go to the next news source to reaffirm their beliefs, included the aforementioned Facebook site. "We the people" for those of you interested in the lunacy.


Are the right wingers so far out of touch with reality to not realize that the very institution of democracy that they are attacking cannot occur if they are actively taking part? I am rather certain their is an even mix of political parties on all the volunteer levels of the election. The amount of distrust from outside of that process is staggering . However I suspect it is because there are maybe the people in the back half of the class that don't realize class is and has been in session.

To a certain extent I'm not surprised by the rhetoric, and it is not all right wingers.

Richard Nixon popularized the phrase "Silent Majority" over 50 years ago. I'm from that background where people feel they have no voice in how the country is run, mostly conservatives.

BLM is a movement which is largely focused on given a voice to people who feel they have not been heard.

Heck, I remember watching MLK (never in person unfortunately) speaking of giving black people a voice in America.

The movement of of talk radio to reached out to people with conservative opinions, to right wing opinions was a turning point. Then Murdoch decided that was an untapped market, and founded a 'News' channel to feed their own opinions back to them.

Rural people back before I was born 68 years ago felt the country was run by 'rich northeast ivy league liberals'. And what news media there was never addressed their real concerns. Even FDR was a rich person who only dropped crumbs to the poor people.

The internet has done many things, many good, many bad. One of my best MS Flight Simulator buddies near a couple decades ago was from Vietnam. We figured out that he might have fired some of the 122mm rockets that I had to dodge at Danang in September and October 1972. We had grown and understood the world changes.

Most of the people in the world do not like change because of the uncertainty in my opinion. And they really do not like being told their opinions and values are old-fashioned, unrealistic, and impractical. LIBERALS as well as conservatives.

The internet has given them a voice, a place to speak what many have kept inside for 30, 40, 50 or more years. (Social media IMHO is just an extension of the internet technology/ concept).

EVERYONE listens to the figureheads that support their opinion, and dismisses the others as idiots.

I don't find Trump supporters to any less grounded in reality or stupid than Bernie Sanders supporters. They just have a different opinion and a value by which they judge things to be right or wrong. People will never agree on everything, and as long as the loudest voices, with the most money, are on the extremes - there will be no reasonable accommodation/ common ground.

MODS - I think it is about time to move these type discussions to another thread, or delete the whole bunch.

This thread should only be about the election and the process - which still continues.

I don't think we have to move it, other than continue it in another thread. The issue here is of the election, and this grooming that led into the election from 2016 that the process which both delivered and removed the Presidency from Trump is corrupt. This pervasive paranoia is mind control. The issue for Conservatives vs the Liberals. is that both see where we are going. The Liberals want to pull us there, the Conservatives want to hold back. Somewhere in the middle is where Government and Elections are supposed to deliver the results. However this pervasive paranoia and unfounded allegations are what derail the process .

I also disagree strongly about this topic being split up. Please moderators do not do that. The issue here is the election and everything relating /contributing to it.

I would love to see some truth I’m advertising provisions, force politicians to be legally responsible for their claims.

That would clean up some of the outrageous election campaigning we’ve seen in a lot of countries.

Klaus: Murdoch i don’t think is particularly right wing, he just wants power and will go with whoever to maintain his influence.

rfields5421 wrote:

Taking Donald Trump into criminal court will only further divide the country, inflame his more stringent supporters, make his prosecution look childish and petty. Anyone reasonable does not want to make the current division within the US worse

"Procecution look childish and petty"?

Rule of law anyone?, "rich, white guy gets away with a dozen felonies" certainly isn't what makes the divide go away.

Best regards
Thomas

I believe Biden would be wise, if there were any federal charges or prosecution, to pardon Trump and be done with it rather than drag the country through divisive crap for the first years of his presidency. There are state actions ongoing right now that will bring any malfeasance to light. Biden needs to be the "uniter" and as he stated in his speech, work to heal the nation and be a president for all not just part of its people.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

I believe Biden would be wise, if there were any federal charges or prosecution, to pardon Trump and be done with it rather than drag the country through divisive crap for the first years of his presidency. There are state actions ongoing right now that will bring any malfeasance to light. Biden needs to be the "uniter" and as he stated in his speech, work to heal the nation and be a president for all not just part of its people.

Tugg

If there really are some sort of federal charges that could be in the works, I think we can be absolutely sure that Trump's legal team has already set into motion what needs to happen to avoid those, even if it means resigning and having Pence pardon him or something of the like (which would, comically really, make Biden the 47th President of the United States, and spur the need for a whoooollleee lot of ceremonial merchandise to be re-made).

Federal charges are of course a completely separate issue, and it's well known and documented that Trump could be in some real trouble there with SDNY on the tax front. We should of course, for the purposes of federalism, be firmly okay with those cases being allowed to run their legal course while knowing full well that even an interim President Pence or President Biden would have no power to pardon state charges.

More likely IMHO is that Biden will issue a pardon for Trump, in return for a peaceful and semi-supportive transition.

Trump resisting the transition will put Biden six to eight weeks behind, so there is an advantage to him and his agenda.

He also does not want the first year of his Presidency to have all the attention of Congress, the media and the people focusing on Trump and his claims of an illegal election/ coup. Get the guy quietly out of town.

cpd wrote:

Klaus: Murdoch i don’t think is particularly right wing, he just wants power and will go with whoever to maintain his influence.

All his media consistently skew as far towards the hard right as they can without completely losing their respective audiences, all across the markets where he is active, in particular in Australia, in the UK and in the USA.

This is a very precise, and very good analysis.
But I hope that this election was as if Germany dodged Hitler in 1935ish. Or he had died of a heart attack in -36. None of the others could have kept the power and people moving into the madness as Hitler did. Göering? No.
We must not forget how important the figurehead is for these kind of authoritarian take-overs to work.
Now, hopefully, Trump is finished as one for the american authoritarian right wing. He was never quite good enough, and it takes years and years to build a new one. USA has bought itself some time to strengthen it’s democracy. Lets hope it takes it seriously. It includes healthcare, education and some serious wealth-redistribution.

Klaus wrote:

rfields5421 wrote:

I don't find Trump supporters to any less grounded in reality or stupid than Bernie Sanders supporters. They just have a different opinion and a value by which they judge things to be right or wrong. People will never agree on everything, and as long as the loudest voices, with the most money, are on the extremes - there will be no reasonable accommodation/ common ground.

That relativism is just not supported by facts.

Especially the current republican echo chamber is mostly fact-free propaganda which deflates the moment it comes into contact with reality. It is not at all a matter of "both sides are about equal".

Where I agree with you, however, is that it's not a matter of people on one or the other side being "stupid". It is rather a matter of choosing to turn one's back to reality and joining a cult of wholly made-up ideology.

Under pressure from media moguls US media oversight has been kept crippled to the point that the same level of completely unchecked propaganda that brought Hitler into power in 1933's Germany can now pose as "journalism" and "opinion" with absolute zero accountability.

The name today is Rupert Murdoch instead of Alfred Hugenberg, but the same mechanisms are at work right now that were back then: If you pump enough money into propaganda for long enough, it will achieve the desired effect.

And "mainstream" conservatives in the US today are behaving the exact same way as they did in 1933: "As long as he's closer to our goals than to the ones of the other guys, we'll fully support any authoritarian to the hilt!"

The current situation is disturbingly similar today, and it is actually mostly a matter of toxic propaganda being pushed aggressively into the media, again appealing to the lowest instincts while trying to maintain at least some veneer of respectability on the surface.

And this is not solved with Trump's exit: Rupert Murdoch and the other hard-right media moguls are still all there, and they don't care what people actually want; They know if they push hard enough for long enough, they will sway more and more people to whatever ideology they're peddling.

And it should be no surprise that this ideology consists mostly of support for the interests of those media moguls, only combined with enough distractions to keep it going without being all too obvious. Racism, xenophobia and all other kinds of hatreds are perfect to keep people's minds occupied while the harvest is reaped by those pushing the whole thing forwards.

DLFREEBIRD wrote:

Joe Biden really connected with People. Now we can move forward. Take care of Business. take care of the sick, and for us all to heal. Those who voted for Trump, take your time to grieve and move on. If that means leaving the U.S. so be it. You weren't a real American.

So people that vote and think differently should leave their home nation?



That is a belter.