Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
tommy1808
Posts: 14646
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:58 am

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Behause he very likely is a multiple time felon, and crime should be punished? Its "If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime". There is no asterix "unless you had been president and have enough fans".

There are plenty of reason to pull out all the stops when it comes to former heads of state, as they swore an oath to uphold the constitution and law of the land.

best regards
Thomas

Get real.
One crow doesn't pick the eye of another crow.


You asked for reasons why he should be procecuted, not why it offen offen doesn't happen.

Best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20090
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:10 am

Sokes wrote:
Why do so many people want to see Trump persecuted?
I want to see Bush persecuted. Trump is small fish in comparison.

I never liked the hatred Trump was facing. But some Trump critics can't even let go when they win.

I wonder what's the psychology behind witch hunt?


There's a big difference between 'prosecuted' and 'persecuted'. If Trump has broken the law, then he should be prosecuted.

As for hatred, well IMHO, Trump has brought that on himself with his complete inability to compromise on anything, his divisiveness and his absolute, pathetically desperate need to be "a winner".
 
Sokes
Posts: 2773
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:12 am

tommy1808 wrote:
You asked for reasons why he should be procecuted, not why it offen offen doesn't happen.

Best regards
Thomas

O.k., point taken.

I can't find anything extraordinary bad about Trump.
That doesn't mean I support his policies. That's why I don't understand why people are so hostile.

I felt like this with Bush. Well, should we compare Bush with Trump? And Bush got reelected!
 
Sokes
Posts: 2773
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:23 am

scbriml wrote:
There's a big difference between 'prosecuted' and 'persecuted'. If Trump has broken the law, then he should be prosecuted.

I indeed mixed up the words. It's not my native language.

As for hatred, well IMHO, Trump has brought that on himself with his complete inability to compromise on anything, his divisiveness and his absolute, pathetically desperate need to be "a winner".

But his pathetic talk doesn't cause millions of refugees.
On their fruits you will know them, not on their talk.

By the way:
Any more South Park predictions who could be a future president?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14646
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:27 am

Sokes wrote:
I can't find anything extraordinary bad about Trump.


Obstruction of justice by the head of government himself isn´t bad enough? Blackmailing a foreign government into making up allegation against your political opponents by illegally withholding aid isn´t bad enough?

I felt like this with Bush. Well, should we compare Bush with Trump? And Bush got reelected!


Bush is a war criminal, but apparently did nothing illegal under US law.

best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14668
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:31 am

olle wrote:
One reflection I have is that the popular vote vs the electoral votes has a gap.

Even Hillary Clinton gained the popular vote but lost the Electoral vote.

Why do not number of electoral votes for a state better mirror its % of population?


The EC votes are close enough to the population that this isn't the issue, Biden also won small states anyway. The issue is "winner takes all". So if you win states by small margins, and lose states by wide margins, you get a result like this. It has been calculated that you could get to 270 electors with only 22% of the popular vote, by winning the states you win with the thinnest of margins, and losing the other states with 0 votes.
 
art
Posts: 4173
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:03 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

There are plenty of reason to pull out all the stops when it comes to former heads of state, as they swore an oath to uphold the constitution and law of the land.


So did the members of the Senate during the impeachment hearings. Almost to a man they broke their oath to judge the defendant on the evidence. If most senators are willing to abuse the system for political reasons, why are they not pursued for disobeying the law of the land too? (I believe it is not legal to swear do do something then do the opposite).
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4654
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:09 pm

Unsurprisingly it looks like a troupe of armed Trump supporters were planning an attack in Philadelphia. I'm glad this one was foiled.

Prosecutors here charged two Virginia men with weapons violations after police arrested them while they carried guns near the convention center, where votes from the presidential election have been counted this week amid dueling demonstrations outside.

Police said the FBI received a tip Thursday about an armed group traveling from Virginia to Philadelphia, one of the cities where the ongoing vote-counting has spurred sometimes tense protests. Police found the car associated with the tip, and then the men, on Thursday night.

Philadelphia police said they located the armed men near the convention center late Thursday after being tipped off about people with guns traveling there in a silver Hummer with Virginia license plates. Police found the Hummer and then two bike patrol officers spotted the two men, both of whom were arrested for having guns they were not allowed to carry in the city, the department said. A woman apparently traveling with them was not arrested, officials said.

Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner identified the two men as 42-year-old Joshua Macias and 61-year-old Antonio LaMotta, both of Chesapeake, Va. Krasner said they were both charged with having a concealed firearm without a license, a third-degree felony, and carrying a firearm on public streets or public property, a first-degree misdemeanor.

Photos of the Hummer captured what appeared to be a hat inside bearing an insignia for QAnon, a far-right conspiracy theory, as well as a decal on its rear window bearing an abbreviation of that group’s rallying cry, “Where we go one, we go all."

Danielle Outlaw, the Philadelphia police commissioner, said LaMotta was seen carrying a 9mm pistol visible in a hip holster, while Macias had a handgun concealed under his jacket. Outlaw said that Macias had a Virginia concealed carry permit. After the men gave police consent to search their Hummer, an AR-15-style rifle was recovered inside it, she said. In total, Krasner said about 160 rounds of ammunition were found.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... -election/


SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Olddog wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Affidavits have already been delivered to the DOJ that cheating occurred. It's easier to catch something that happens in almost every election to some degree than to catch lightning in a bottle..

There is a huge difference between finding some specific mistakes and finding several thousands to change the results.

casinterest wrote:
You have to let him go on his wild goose chase. The right wing sites are all passing around these claims.

When all the is said and done, there will be few if any cheating uncovered. More likely errors made accidentally, and they will not be enough to overcome the vote totals.

Something that none of you have mentioned yet; in a close result, accidental errors are just as likely to benefit Biden as Trump. I've seen it with my own eyes; here are 10 votes in pile A that should be in pile B, and here are 11 votes that are the other way around. After days of wrangling, the end result is still the same.

Of course, if there is any deliberate fraud, then my money is on it being by GOP supporters, and Trump's litigation will (once again) more likely disadvantage his own ilk - as if he cares one iota for his loyal followers.... :duck:


My money is that there are any irregularities, it will be a single digit number of votes being miscounted or counted twice in one single county/precinct and for Donald at his bootlickers to claim that that was what cost them the election.

rfields5421 wrote:
rfields5421 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Can anyone find for me the registration of Kamala's Bombardier GLEX (unlikely to actually be hers, obviously)? I'm suddenly curious.


Almost certainly a charter by the campaign. That way it is a legal campaign cost..



EDIT of the above post after the forum edit deadline.

Found this link - https://jettip.net/blog/tracking-the-2020-us-presidential-campaign-aircraft


Exactly the kind of info I was looking for - thanks! Looks like she was flying N989RJ.

rfields5421 wrote:
EVERYONE listens to the figureheads that support their opinion, and dismisses the others as idiots.


IMO the issue is deeper than that. Thanks to the internet, we are in an age where one can shop around for information that suits our opinion and IMO that means that some/lots/most people form their opinion before weighing the evidence. If I decide that I don't like wearing face masks a few minutes of googling will yield me a host of information on the "anti-mask" spectrum about everything from how "masks don't work", "masks work, but not against Coronavirus", "N90 masks work but everything else is useless" to "masks are a tool for governments to control you and the next step is slavery". Some of the people espousing these views will have credible qualifications/backgrounds like Doctors and Professors and thus someone can essentially go shopping for whichever bit of evidence most closely matches their opinion. In the past, the media would report on what was "most credible". Nowadays, most of the media will try and be "balanced" and offer relatively equal time to both sides of an issue, regardless of credibility. Thus you end up in a situation where lots of people think that Anthropogenic global warming is a hoax and that Vaccines sometimes give you autism.

If I decide that there was voter fraud in PA then I'm sure that a bit of googling would be able to come up with some evidence of it (credible or otherwise). I applaud the media for calling out Donnie's falsehoods, but they shouldn't have started doing so just now.

winginit wrote:
Donald Trump's campaign have filed 10 lawsuits so far all of which merely impact only the oversight of ballot counting or a handful of votes that they allege have been mishandled. All ten of them have already been thrown out, and based on their desperate fundraising efforts and outstanding campaign debt the purse is going to run empty soon.


Well obviously those judges are part of the Deep State. :D

tommy1808 wrote:
"Procecution look childish and petty"?

Rule of law anyone?, "rich, white guy gets away with a dozen felonies" certainly isn't what makes the divide go away.


Yeah exactly. Rule of law is pointless if it's not enforced on the rich and powerful. There has to be consequences for illegal actions or the next person will do so even further. Give an inch, they'll take a mile. And I'm absolutely fine with Obama or Clinton being prosecuted if they did anything illegal. Not charging Trump for the crimes that he committed isn't going to make the MAGA folks think that the deep state hasn't been working against him.

Robert Mueller says that a president can be charged after leaving office.

https://youtu.be/eRYiPzDP94I?t=72

noviorbis77 wrote:
So people that vote and think differently should leave their home nation?

:)


Haven't you spend the last four years saying that people who are opposed to Brexit should either get over it or leave? :scratchchin:

Sokes wrote:
Why do so many people want to see Trump persecuted?


Because he broke the law.

Sokes wrote:
I want to see Bush persecuted.


So do I, but Obama screwed that one up - didn't have them investigated in the name of "unity". How did that work out? If Bush had been put on trial for his crimes and faced the consequences for them then IMO we would have had a much different Trump Presidency.

Francoflier wrote:
Biden will do exactly what he currently does about Trump... He will keep ignoring him and likely never mention him at all.
He will strive to undo his damage while only referring to it as the work of 'the previous administration'.

Now that he's won, calling him out would stigmatize his base and hamper his goal to unite the nation, but offering him an olive branch would tacitly endorse his despicable behavior and actions (and Trump wouldn't take it anyway).

He'll simply never directly mention him and let the justice system (along with all the other agencies and individuals Trump will have to answer to) deal with him while distancing himself from any proceeding, as he should.


:checkmark: The most mature way to handle this.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4654
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:10 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Aw, c'mon now - that's an over-reaction.

I mean to say - by all means change your username to distance yourself from everything you have posted these past four years


I don't want to be too conspiratorial or anything, but I think it's going to be very interesting to see which usernames get suddenly retired and which usernames make a surprise comeback after three to four years on hiatus and claim to never have supported Donald. Just a suspicion......
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14646
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:17 pm

art wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

There are plenty of reason to pull out all the stops when it comes to former heads of state, as they swore an oath to uphold the constitution and law of the land.


So did the members of the Senate during the impeachment hearings. Almost to a man they broke their oath to judge the defendant on the evidence.


since they don´t have immunity someone should check if they can be charged with something. Lying under oath would come to mind....

best regards
Thomas
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:12 pm

What is the likelihood of Dems taking over Senate? Otherwise, nothing is going to happen on the legislative front, just EOs of litigation.

I hope President Biden doesn't drag his agenda in the name of bi-partisanship, if he believes it is right for the people, just do it.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13836
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:18 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
What is the likelihood of Dems taking over Senate? Otherwise, nothing is going to happen on the legislative front, just EOs of litigation.

I hope President Biden doesn't drag his agenda in the name of bi-partisanship, if he believes it is right for the people, just do it.



That is going to be a mult million dollar run off question. A lot of the current posturing by Trump, and Lindsey Graham is to keep the Georgia senate seats in play. Biden and Harris's speeches thanking African American Women was a big part of pandering to the voters in Georgia.

The next 5 weeks are going to be interesting. Biden is in a unique position to having actually worked with Mitch McConnell for decades. There may be more ground that they can reach agreements on then many may guess.
 
N867DA
Posts: 1370
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:32 pm

casinterest wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
What is the likelihood of Dems taking over Senate? Otherwise, nothing is going to happen on the legislative front, just EOs of litigation.

I hope President Biden doesn't drag his agenda in the name of bi-partisanship, if he believes it is right for the people, just do it.



That is going to be a mult million dollar run off question. A lot of the current posturing by Trump, and Lindsey Graham is to keep the Georgia senate seats in play. Biden and Harris's speeches thanking African American Women was a big part of pandering to the voters in Georgia.

The next 5 weeks are going to be interesting. Biden is in a unique position to having actually worked with Mitch McConnell for decades. There may be more ground that they can reach agreements on then many may guess.


I am incredibly hopeful that Biden's olive branch mindset and experience working with Mitch McConnell will help smooth things over. We may not adopt Ocasio-Cortez's platform (and probably shouldn't, right now). We just need to make politics boring again. The sooner America moves on from the cult of Donald Trump the better. I doubt Nikki Haley or Tom Cotton differ from Trump on policy but they don't bring the divisiveness as Donald.

The Georgia run-offs are unlikely wins for Democrats and would be nice to have for Democrats to push legislation through, but they are not as critical to this country as moving on from the damage Donald Trump has caused.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14646
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:39 pm

N867DA wrote:
The Georgia run-offs are unlikely wins for Democrats and would be nice to have for Democrats to push legislation through, but they are not as critical to this country as moving on from the damage Donald Trump has caused.


Given the track record of do-nothing-Mitch as Senate majority leader absolutely nothing will happen without a Republican in the White House as a matter of principle.

Well... Biden and the House can bribe McConnell with some extra Military installations in KY to create jobs and buy him his reelection, but aside of that?

best regards
Thoma
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13836
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:42 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
N867DA wrote:
The Georgia run-offs are unlikely wins for Democrats and would be nice to have for Democrats to push legislation through, but they are not as critical to this country as moving on from the damage Donald Trump has caused.


Given the track record of do-nothing-Mitch as Senate majority leader absolutely nothing will happen without a Republican in the White House as a matter of principle.

Well... Biden and the House can bribe McConnell with some extra Military installations in KY to create jobs and buy him his reelection, but aside of that?

best regards
Thoma


The interesting part of all of this is North Carolina. The GOP just about lost their senator in this election, and 2022 will be critical for them gaining control. If McConnell drags his feet, the replacement for Burr may not be a Democrat that gets crippled in the last month of an election.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:42 pm

olle wrote:
One reflection I have is that the popular vote vs the electoral votes has a gap.

Even Hillary Clinton gained the popular vote but lost the Electoral vote.

Why do not number of electoral votes for a state better mirror its % of population?


The electoral votes mirror the states' representation in Congress

After every census, the number of Congressmen will be adjusted for each state as the population changes. Congress is capped at 535 people - 100 in the Senate, 435 in the House (the District of Columbia does not have a voting seat in either the Senate or House - but does have 3 electoral votes per an amendment to the Constitiution)

After the 2010 Census - the State of Texas gained 4 congressional seats, which mean 4 more electoral votes in the elections of 2012, 2016 and 2020 than in the election of 2008. The state of New York lost 2 congressional seats - Source https://www.ncsl.org/research/redistricting/spotlight-census-2010.aspxhttps://www.ncsl.org/research/redistricting/spotlight-census-2010.aspx

After the results of the 2020 Census are officially published, there will be an adjustment, which should be implemented for the 2022 Congressional elections and the 2024 Presidential election.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15787
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:43 pm

This election will be the subject of a number of books, studies, talk for history. The affects of Covid-19, anti-racism protests, the candidates, the massive shift to vote by mail, will be among the topics. Just some random observations:

Covid-19 likely was the key factor in Biden winning and Trump losing. The failure of strong Federal leadership badly hurt Trump while Biden's careful, caring approach worked.

The anti-racism/BLM protests and related comments by Trump had offsetting factors. It likely encouraged more Black voters to turn out against Trump. Trump likely gained White male votes from existing racism,t he riots and looting connected with some local protests as to police officers causing the death of too many Black persons in arrests, the calls by some fools to oversimplify their protests by saying 'Defund Police' put Democrats in a difficult defensive position.There was a slight shift of Black voters for Trump and some Republicans. They are more likely those with faith based conservative social views, in particular as to GLTBQ's, abortion, and pro-capitalist.

Mail voting likely encouraged more to vote over all, especially Democrats in rural and suburban areas. I suspect mail voting will be a major form of voting in the future in most USA states, along with expanding early in person voting.

All but the most politically conservative pre-election polls were very inaccurate and misleading. I don't see much of a future in most of them.

Republicans gained seats in the House, hold the Senate and kept if not gained in State and some local elections.There was a lot of 'split' voting, for Biden but for Republicans for all other offices up for election due to Covid-19, his open racism,but support for 'local' candidates for other issues like taxes, spending on cities. Biden did gain from HRC in 2016 with White, Women, Suburban voters likely over Covid-19, and fears of losing legal abortion, Trump's racism.

The Hispanic/Latinx vote is much more diverse that previously seen. Republicans held and likely gained with anti-socialist, capitalist and Catholic Florida's Cuban and Venezuelan related voters and some in border areas of Texas as to immigration issues. Likely Puerto Ricans in the 50 states and most of Mexican heritage continued to support Democrats.

We are still a very divided nation in many ways.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13836
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:55 pm

More numbers are still coming in as the counts are finalized.
Biden has won more than 50% of the popular vote so far.

Current Election Stats:


Nationwide:
Biden: 75,582,213 ( 50.6%)
Trump: 71,198.613( 47.6%)

Arizona:
Biden: 1,643,664(49.5%)
Trump: 1,626,679(48.9%)

Georgia:
Biden: 2,465,783(49.5%)
Trump:2.455,431(49.3%)

Pennsylvania:
Biden: 3,361,668(49.7%)
Trump:3,315,998(49.0%)

Nevada:
Biden: 664,162(50.2%)
Trump: 629,879(47.6%)

Michigan:
Biden: 2,794,853(50.5%)
Trump:2,646,956(47.9%)

North Carolina:
Trump: 2,733,681(50.0%)
Biden: 2,658,274(48.6%)

Florida:
Trump:5,668,834(51.2%)
Biden:5,294,767(47.8%)


Wisconsin:
Biden: 1,630,569(49.4%)
Trump: 1,610,030(48.8%)

https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/resul ... tional_map
 
User avatar
CitizenJustin
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:12 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:03 pm

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
You asked for reasons why he should be procecuted, not why it offen offen doesn't happen.

Best regards
Thomas

O.k., point taken.

I can't find anything extraordinary bad about Trump.
That doesn't mean I support his policies. That's why I don't understand why people are so hostile.

I felt like this with Bush. Well, should we compare Bush with Trump? And Bush got reelected!



Have you read his tweets? They’re absolutely vile and filled with countless dangerous conspiracy theories and calls for violence. He’s attacked several American heroes, going as far as calling them losers. He’s complimented and glorified every dictator and tyrant on the planet, while relentlessly attacking our long time allies. He’s accrued 26 sexual misconduct accusations and cheated on all his wives, one was a porn star no less. This obviously threatens the health and safety of his family. He’s admitted to grabbing women by their genitalia. He told 4 female politicians of color to go back to where they came from, even though they were born in America. He loathes the people who vote for him and in the 90’s he even said if he were to run for office, he’d choose the Republican ticket, because “they’ll believe anything”.

He routinely attacks scientists and denies scientific facts, while pandering to anti-intellectuals and religious zealots. He’s nominated justices with highly bigoted views against LGBT and other minorities. He purposely lied to the American public about the seriousness of Covid19 and now we have a death toll that far exceeds anything since WWII. Several members of his administration are proven criminals sitting in prison, he’s used the N word in front of staff and there’s so much more. I’ll also mention that he’s largely responsible for the racist conspiracy that Obama isn’t an American citizen.

How is it possible that you can’t understand why people dislike this man after the insanity of the past 4 years?

What’s truly unfortunate is that you find these actions acceptable for a sitting President who should be held to the highest of standards. You’re normalizing the worst behavior of any President in modern history and I think it’s terrifying that you have no problem with such a heinous failure of a man.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14646
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:05 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
He loathes the people who vote for him and in the 90’s he even said if he were to run for office, he’d choose the Republican ticket, because “they’ll believe anything”.


that is actually an urban legend ....

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact ... SKBN2342S5

best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2374
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:08 pm

Trump isn’t going to win, but he should see all the lawsuits through from a legal perspective. It’s my understanding that hundreds of suits were filed before the election to change already established absentee ballot guidelines without state legislature approval. Rules need to be followed and the only way to ensure that they are is to have example cases to point to. People used COVID as an excuse to try and alter the outcome of an election. That kind of crap can’t go on. If he stays the course on the suits, states will be forced to make changes to adjust for the increase in mail in ballot use. You don’t change the rules half way through the game.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14646
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:13 pm

DL717 wrote:
People used COVID as an excuse to try and alter the outcome of an election. .


mmm... that didn´t happen. The only change was more mail in ballots, and they do nothing to change the outcome of elections. Trump ranting against Mail in ballots only changed the distribution between in person and mail in ballots.

best regards
Thomas
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4170
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:14 pm

DL717 wrote:
If he stays the course on the suits, states will be forced to make changes to adjust for the increase in mail in ballot use. You don’t change the rules half way through the game.


I don’t understand why they’d need to make changes if trump stays the course?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15710
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:16 pm

DL717 wrote:
Trump isn’t going to win, but he should see all the lawsuits through from a legal perspective. It’s my understanding that hundreds of suits were filed before the election to change already established absentee ballot guidelines without state legislature approval. Rules need to be followed and the only way to ensure that they are is to have example cases to point to. People used COVID as an excuse to try and alter the outcome of an election. That kind of crap can’t go on. If he stays the course on the suits, states will be forced to make changes to adjust for the increase in mail in ballot use. You don’t change the rules half way through the game.


As elections commissioners around the country have been saying in interviews all week...as long as mailed ballots were postmarked by election day, there’s no difference. A legal ballot is a legal ballot is a legal ballot. No outcomes were altered. We knew the results in FL right away because they revised procedures after 2000 and they have systems in place to get all types of ballots tabulated right away.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14646
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:23 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
about the seriousness of Covid19.


and the moment that president is kicked out:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... ate-covid/

But the prediction of Covid disappearing by November 4th has somehow proven itself to be wrong...... (funny enough, plenty of Twitter still claim Corona reporting has disappeared .... they really, really rely on no one checking).

best regards
Thomas
 
N867DA
Posts: 1370
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:30 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
about the seriousness of Covid19.


and the moment that president is kicked out:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... ate-covid/

But the prediction of Covid disappearing by November 4th has somehow proven itself to be wrong...... (funny enough, plenty of Twitter still claim Corona reporting has disappeared .... they really, really rely on no one checking).

best regards
Thomas


Seems his own party is scared of his cult too. Imagine being such a brash person your own friends and family need to be goaded to tell you something. I heard they're drawing straws to see who tells Trump he should concede.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:31 pm

N867DA wrote:
casinterest wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
What is the likelihood of Dems taking over Senate? Otherwise, nothing is going to happen on the legislative front, just EOs of litigation.

I hope President Biden doesn't drag his agenda in the name of bi-partisanship, if he believes it is right for the people, just do it.



That is going to be a mult million dollar run off question. A lot of the current posturing by Trump, and Lindsey Graham is to keep the Georgia senate seats in play. Biden and Harris's speeches thanking African American Women was a big part of pandering to the voters in Georgia.

The next 5 weeks are going to be interesting. Biden is in a unique position to having actually worked with Mitch McConnell for decades. There may be more ground that they can reach agreements on then many may guess.


I am incredibly hopeful that Biden's olive branch mindset and experience working with Mitch McConnell will help smooth things over. We may not adopt Ocasio-Cortez's platform (and probably shouldn't, right now). We just need to make politics boring again. The sooner America moves on from the cult of Donald Trump the better. I doubt Nikki Haley or Tom Cotton differ from Trump on policy but they don't bring the divisiveness as Donald.

The Georgia run-offs are unlikely wins for Democrats and would be nice to have for Democrats to push legislation through, but they are not as critical to this country as moving on from the damage Donald Trump has caused.


I think you are underestimating GOP's ability to create roadblocks. The best outcome is to snatch the Senate from them. Dems still have deal with two independents.

There is risk with extending olive branch after olive branch, two years will just pass by, if nothing has been done, the enthusiasm in democrats wears down, may start losing senate or house seats. Obama all over again.

With right leaning SCOTUS, EO route is not going to be an easy one.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2374
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:41 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
DL717 wrote:
If he stays the course on the suits, states will be forced to make changes to adjust for the increase in mail in ballot use. You don’t change the rules half way through the game.


I don’t understand why they’d need to make changes if trump stays the course?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Case law will be settled on non legislative rule changes during an election rather than maintaining existing rules with regard to voting. Think of it like a President issuing an unlawful executive order that gets taken to a court for validity.
 
N867DA
Posts: 1370
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:47 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
N867DA wrote:
casinterest wrote:


That is going to be a mult million dollar run off question. A lot of the current posturing by Trump, and Lindsey Graham is to keep the Georgia senate seats in play. Biden and Harris's speeches thanking African American Women was a big part of pandering to the voters in Georgia.

The next 5 weeks are going to be interesting. Biden is in a unique position to having actually worked with Mitch McConnell for decades. There may be more ground that they can reach agreements on then many may guess.


I am incredibly hopeful that Biden's olive branch mindset and experience working with Mitch McConnell will help smooth things over. We may not adopt Ocasio-Cortez's platform (and probably shouldn't, right now). We just need to make politics boring again. The sooner America moves on from the cult of Donald Trump the better. I doubt Nikki Haley or Tom Cotton differ from Trump on policy but they don't bring the divisiveness as Donald.

The Georgia run-offs are unlikely wins for Democrats and would be nice to have for Democrats to push legislation through, but they are not as critical to this country as moving on from the damage Donald Trump has caused.


I think you are underestimating GOP's ability to create roadblocks. The best outcome is to snatch the Senate from them. Dems still have deal with two independents.

There is risk with extending olive branch after olive branch, two years will just pass by, if nothing has been done, the enthusiasm in democrats wears down, may start losing senate or house seats. Obama all over again.

With right leaning SCOTUS, EO route is not going to be an easy one.


Very fair point. If things stay this way, unless Republicans regain the House and White House it seems we will enter an era of do-nothing politics. At the very least the country is insulated from active harm for the next four years.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13836
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:49 pm

DL717 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
DL717 wrote:
If he stays the course on the suits, states will be forced to make changes to adjust for the increase in mail in ballot use. You don’t change the rules half way through the game.


I don’t understand why they’d need to make changes if trump stays the course?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Case law will be settled on non legislative rule changes during an election rather than maintaining existing rules with regard to voting. Think of it like a President issuing an unlawful executive order that gets taken to a court for validity.


Think of it this way. The elections were handled in the best way possible due to the Impeached President's mishandling of the virus.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2374
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:50 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Trump isn’t going to win, but he should see all the lawsuits through from a legal perspective. It’s my understanding that hundreds of suits were filed before the election to change already established absentee ballot guidelines without state legislature approval. Rules need to be followed and the only way to ensure that they are is to have example cases to point to. People used COVID as an excuse to try and alter the outcome of an election. That kind of crap can’t go on. If he stays the course on the suits, states will be forced to make changes to adjust for the increase in mail in ballot use. You don’t change the rules half way through the game.


As elections commissioners around the country have been saying in interviews all week...as long as mailed ballots were postmarked by election day, there’s no difference. A legal ballot is a legal ballot is a legal ballot. No outcomes were altered. We knew the results in FL right away because they revised procedures after 2000 and they have systems in place to get all types of ballots tabulated right away.


That isn’t the point. Some states had laws on the books saying a ballot had to be received by Election Day that were permitted by lawsuit to extend the deadlines due to vague laws. Others no longer had to review signatures. Thus, having the matter settled in court, the states involved would need to make their laws more specific so as to standardize their process. Its not about trying to change the election outcome, it’s about fixing the process by which elections are handled. Suits in 2000 didn’t change the outcome, but it did change how we vote from a technology perspective. Now we have a new condition where mail in ballot use has changed from being one of convenience of a few to convenience of the many. Had there been a better process, we wouldn’t be sitting here waiting on Alaska and people wouldn’t have been suing to extend deadlines or wipe out signature verification. BTW, there needs to be a different method than signature verification. Maybe a thumbprint one the envelope. If your phone can check your print in seconds, then the multi million dollar voting system can do the same if your print is preloaded.
Last edited by DL717 on Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2374
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:52 pm

N867DA wrote:
casinterest wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
What is the likelihood of Dems taking over Senate? Otherwise, nothing is going to happen on the legislative front, just EOs of litigation.

I hope President Biden doesn't drag his agenda in the name of bi-partisanship, if he believes it is right for the people, just do it.



That is going to be a mult million dollar run off question. A lot of the current posturing by Trump, and Lindsey Graham is to keep the Georgia senate seats in play. Biden and Harris's speeches thanking African American Women was a big part of pandering to the voters in Georgia.

The next 5 weeks are going to be interesting. Biden is in a unique position to having actually worked with Mitch McConnell for decades. There may be more ground that they can reach agreements on then many may guess.


I am incredibly hopeful that Biden's olive branch mindset and experience working with Mitch McConnell will help smooth things over. We may not adopt Ocasio-Cortez's platform (and probably shouldn't, right now). We just need to make politics boring again. The sooner America moves on from the cult of Donald Trump the better. I doubt Nikki Haley or Tom Cotton differ from Trump on policy but they don't bring the divisiveness as Donald.

The Georgia run-offs are unlikely wins for Democrats and would be nice to have for Democrats to push legislation through, but they are not as critical to this country as moving on from the damage Donald Trump has caused.


Georgia will split. GOP will have 51. It will provide balance and keep things from going off the rails for a couple of years. We need a calming period. A nasty recession is coming and people are anxious and angry. You ram an agenda through right now and nothing will change. People will just stay pissed off.
 
art
Posts: 4173
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:58 pm

What chance is there of the 50 states having a powwow sometime to arrange a consistent presidential voting system throughout the land?
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2374
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:00 pm

art wrote:
What chance is there of the 50 states having a powwow sometime to arrange a consistent presidential voting system throughout the land?


We did pretty much technology wise. Scans are best though. You can always go back and visually count them. Not a fan out this touchscreen monkey business.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20090
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:05 pm

zkojq wrote:
My money is that there are any irregularities, it will be a single digit number of votes being miscounted or counted twice in one single county/precinct and for Donald at his bootlickers to claim that that was what cost them the election.


Of course. As long as humans are involved in counting votes, some errors will be made. But they're just that, errors. Not "fake votes", not "fraudulent votes", nothing nefarious, just simple mistakes that probably affect a few tens or hundreds of votes across the whole country. Certainly not the "massive fraud" that Trump is still claiming.

The recount in Georgia is a good example - it will return the same result with maybe a couple of hundred different either way. The one thing that almost never happens after a recount is returning an identical result.
 
N867DA
Posts: 1370
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:06 pm

DL717 wrote:
N867DA wrote:
casinterest wrote:


That is going to be a mult million dollar run off question. A lot of the current posturing by Trump, and Lindsey Graham is to keep the Georgia senate seats in play. Biden and Harris's speeches thanking African American Women was a big part of pandering to the voters in Georgia.

The next 5 weeks are going to be interesting. Biden is in a unique position to having actually worked with Mitch McConnell for decades. There may be more ground that they can reach agreements on then many may guess.


I am incredibly hopeful that Biden's olive branch mindset and experience working with Mitch McConnell will help smooth things over. We may not adopt Ocasio-Cortez's platform (and probably shouldn't, right now). We just need to make politics boring again. The sooner America moves on from the cult of Donald Trump the better. I doubt Nikki Haley or Tom Cotton differ from Trump on policy but they don't bring the divisiveness as Donald.

The Georgia run-offs are unlikely wins for Democrats and would be nice to have for Democrats to push legislation through, but they are not as critical to this country as moving on from the damage Donald Trump has caused.


Georgia will split. GOP will have 51. It will provide balance and keep things from going off the rails for a couple of years. We need a calming period. A nasty recession is coming and people are anxious and angry. You ram an agenda through right now and nothing will change. People will just stay pissed off.


You think people will go for one Dem, one Rep? That might not be too bad. By all accounts, Loeffler was a Buckhead Republican (essentially neoliberal) before getting appointed to the Senate. Heck, she donated to Planned Parenthood. I lived in Atlanta for decades; that type of Republican is very amenable to negotiation while not betraying Republican party principles. She got forced to the hard right by Doug Collins and went full Trump. If she wins, she may walk back to the middle because no one know where Georgia will be politically in six years.

I would prefer to have a Democratic majority but agree that nothing should be done. We need to heal, find a new normal, and then decide what to do next. A D Trump Detox.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14668
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:12 pm

About the rise of populist leaders, I will echo the hope that it needs a good enough figurehead. Trump was it, another one will not necessarily appear.

I have Italian roots and have seen 5 stelle rise with a comic as its figurehead, an uncle of mine painted a yellow star on his car. They took power in a way, but the comic is gone, and the magic fading.

In France we had the yellow vests, plenty of leaders emerged, too many : they cancelled each other, and since then several elections have happened and the yellow vests had 0 impact. It's quite easy to be a candidate for the French presidency so they might get one, I expect their only impact to be to lower the vote other more traditional populist leaders get.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11343
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:12 pm

To my knowledge, the "exception" ballots, those postmarked with dates after election day or with illegible signatures or other court allowed elements, are not currently being included in the state ballot count numbers. They are held and counted as the election progresses but are segregated for just the purpose that if there is an issue they can be accounted for. They will be counted but I believe the number of these other ballots remaining are not sufficient to significantly change the results (perhaps if 100% were for one candidate).

Tugg
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:16 pm

The Democrats cannot take control of the Senate this year. At best is a tie.

The Alaska seat has not been called, but with only 50% of the vote counted - the Republican has a 62% to 32% lead over the Democrat with 5 1/2 % going to a third party candidate. It would take near a 100% reversal of the remaining votes to put the Democrat in that seat.

The Republican lead in North Carolina is less than 100,000 out of over five million votes cast, but likely to hold on to that seat.

That would give the Republicans 50 seats in the Senate.

The Democrats must win both seats in Georgia to have a tie in the Senate -

In Republican incumbent Perdue's race, there are plenty of votes cast for a third party candidate to allow the Democrat to take the seat if most of them vote for the Democrat.

In the special election with appointed Republican Loffler trying to retain the seat - she only has near 26% of the vote, while the Democrat has near 33% of the vote. But another almost 20% of the votes have been for another Republican. That was an almost certain runoff even before the voting because of three strong candidates and over 15 other candidates.

The Democrats have a chance - if they campaign hard and avoid the excessive liberal rhetoric. But you know the GOP will be putting everything possible into that election, probably focused on Perdue to keep the 51 member majority in the Senate
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:20 pm

in which states will the votes be re-counted? and because North Carolina and Georgia still do not give definitive results
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:25 pm

Tugger wrote:
To my knowledge, the "exception" ballots, those postmarked with dates after election day or with illegible signatures or other court allowed elements, are not currently being included in the state ballot count numbers. They are held and counted as the election progresses but are segregated for just the purpose that if there is an issue they can be accounted for. They will be counted but I believe the number of these other ballots remaining are not sufficient to significantly change the results (perhaps if 100% were for one candidate).

Tugg


Even states like Texas are still dealing with 'exception' type ballots. I was surprised to learn last night that Monday, Nov 9, is the last legal date for receipt of ballots from military, military spouses and dependents, merchant marine, merchant marine spouses and dependents. Those votes will be counted.

Ballots from overseas US citizen civilians were due in on the fifth day after the election - Sun, Nov 8.

Monday, Nov 9, is also the last day to 'cure' provisional ballots - which of course have not been counted yet. The various county voting boards will not be done with the ballots until at least 10 days after the election. Might explain why in past elections the Texas Secretary of State almost never certifies election results before the Monday or Tuesday before Thanksgiving.

Overseas/ Military Ballot source - https://www.votetexas.gov/military-overseas-voters/index.html

Provisional Ballot procedures - https://www.votetexas.gov/faq/ Near the bottom under all the questions

EDIT - also almost every state handles deaths of voters who submit absentee ballots and early voting differently.

In states where those ballots are on paper, and contain and outer/ inner envelope procedure, the list of recent deaths before election day can be used to pull the votes before counting. That is one reason that absentee and early voting ballots are not counted early in Texas.

But if the early voting location uses touch screen/ electronic voting, I don't know how the individual vote of a person who died between completing their early vote and election day can be identified and ruled ineligible. The cast vote is supposedly not ever identifiable to determine how that person actually voted. If that can be done, then it is no longer a secret ballot.
Last edited by rfields5421 on Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:27 pm

Something that I don't like at all is the attempt to equalize "paranoia about Russia" and "Election fraud" as the same things just because they came from opposing sides of the political spectrum. There WAS and IS undeniable PROOF that Russia interfered in our electoral process in 2016. That's not just a Democratic hoax claim, its a conclusive theory from the US Government.

That's very different than losing and claiming fraud and not being able to produce evidence - not only that, but knowingly making false public allegations such as "We didn't have our poll watchers in the tabulation rooms," but then in court admitting that you actually very much did. That's nothing more than a baseless accusation.
Last edited by NYCVIE on Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:28 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
in which states will the votes be re-counted? and because North Carolina and Georgia still do not give definitive results


Georgia and I think Wisconsin? North Carolina still hasn't finished counting and won't until sometime this week. Plus, Trump is leading there so there's not yet a reason for a recount.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11343
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:36 pm

NYCVIE wrote:
Something that I don't like at all is the attempt to equalize "paranoia about Russia" and "Election fraud" as the same things just because they came from opposing sides of the political spectrum. There WAS and IS undeniable PROOF that Russia interfered in our electoral process in 2016. That's not just a Democratic hoax claim, its a conclusive theory from the US Government.

That's very different than losing and claiming fraud and not being able to produce evidence - not only that, but knowingly making false public allegations such as "We didn't have our poll watchers in the tabulation rooms," but then in court admitting that you actually very much did. That's nothing more than a baseless accusation.

Yes but the interference was done via manipulation of the public, the voter. They utilized weaknesses within social media spheres (which then bled into other media) and not by any direct vote fraud or such. So influence not ballot box stuffing. Influence, advertising etc, is allowed however foreign money, covert foreign subversive methods aren't. The hard part is being able to cleanly and clearly identify when such things are occurring. This cycle showed the forums that were subjected to the outside meddling were far more active to prevent any such action from occurring. And most importantly the public was aware of this, that it had occurred and were more wary of it this time around.

Tugg
 
aerosreenivas
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:40 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:37 pm

It is scary to see Trump's supporters believing that this election was stolen.

It seems that Trump is strong in making people trust
in his lies.
Last edited by aerosreenivas on Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4170
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:40 pm

DL717 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
DL717 wrote:
If he stays the course on the suits, states will be forced to make changes to adjust for the increase in mail in ballot use. You don’t change the rules half way through the game.


I don’t understand why they’d need to make changes if trump stays the course?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Case law will be settled on non legislative rule changes during an election rather than maintaining existing rules with regard to voting. Think of it like a President issuing an unlawful executive order that gets taken to a court for validity.

So if they find that there was not nefarious activity then they'll still have to adjust for the increase in mail in ballots? I'm not sure if that's what you mean but I Cant really see an issue with the process as it stands.
People voted, other people counted the vote. Why is it an issue if they came via post or from a booth?

Fred
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13836
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:41 pm

aerosreenivas wrote:
It is scary to see Trump's supporters believing that this election was stolen.



The whole Stop the Count movement is stupid.

When Trump was projected to win election in 2016, they were still counting votes.
This time it took longer into the count to Project the winner.

NPR did not stop updating the count until Nov 28, even though the election was held on Nov 8 2016

https://www.npr.org/2016/11/08/50092776 ... each-state
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11343
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:51 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
in which states will the votes be re-counted? and because North Carolina and Georgia still do not give definitive results


Below should be helpful:

Georgia law does not have an automatic recount, a losing candidate is allowed to request a recount if they lost an election by less than 0.5% of the total votes The Trump campaign has already called for one however the margin is now above the recount threshold so we will have to see if one is done.
For Wisconsin an "aggrieved" candidate can request a recount if they are within 1% of the winner's vote total.
In Pennsylvania, the secretary of state orders a recount if there's a difference of 0.5% or less between the winner and the loser. Or if at least three voters in each county allege failures with the count.
Arizona allows an automatic if the vote difference is .01% one-tenth of 1 percent of the number of votes. Candidates and voters are not able to directly request recounts.
Nevada allows any losing candidate can demand a recount within three working days after the vote has been certified. Vote count is not a factor.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/06/recount ... ction.html
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... vania.html

Tugg
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20090
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:52 pm

aerosreenivas wrote:
It is scary to see Trump's supporters believing that this election was stolen.

It seems that Trump is strong in making people trust
in his lies.


It helps when your target audience includes folks like this:
Image
Source: https://twitter.com/SandraCappucci2/sta ... 8758994945

They think they've uncovered a massive fraud by asking how is it possible for less than four million people to cast five million votes! Of course it would help if they could tell the difference between the state of Georgia and the country Georgia.

And yes, there are less-than-smart people across the whole political spectrum, but I saw this and decided it was too funny to ignore.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14668
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Official Election thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:57 pm

And Trump is doing exactly what Russia did, openly. Sewing doubt and discord, treating opponents with disdain and insults, lying constantly...

About Mitt Romney, wouldn't Biden prefer him in the senate ? That could be one vote making a lot of difference, in particular when approving people that need senate approval. He has backed Biden before the election after all.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: lugie and 22 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos