Updated: Biden officially secures enough electors to become president

tommy1808 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:47 am

seahawk wrote:
This is so damaging to the democratic system, especially as first the Democrats talked about fraud and Russian meddling .

How many democrats wanted ballots for Trump tossed out because of fraud and Clinton declared winner by the Supreme court? Zero...

Russian meddling was absolutely real, and the problem with that comes from Republicans denying that fact....

So.. the two situations have just about nothing in common....

Best regards
Thomas

Reinhardt · Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:50 am

Late comer to the thread here. So let me get this straight:

Trump + GOP spend months in the lead up to the election trashing mail in votes as open to fraud, despite Trump using vote by mail.
USPS fiasco (not a fiasco, deliberate attempt by Trump buddies to restrict votes)
Post boxes removed in large numbers.
Deliberate voter supression in majority Black + democratic districts
Massive reduction in voting stations in primarily democractic districts
More shouting of mail in being open to fraud. Further reduction of the ability of people to vote by mail.
Trump supporters intimidating Dem voters at voting stations
Trump supporters intimidating Dem election busses on roads

Election day = fake drop off boxes reported
Trump = why are all the mail in votes going Dem?
Trump = i'm winning at midnight, other votes don't count
Trump = lots of votes on TV that were mine suddenly changed to Biden (yup people make mistakes entering text in to screens. Not the vote system).
GOP = You're not letting us into the counting rooms - lets go to court. Erm...they have been there all along??
Our reps are not being allowed to stand close enough to the vote count tables (well were they there all along or not??)
Court says you can stand closer. Fine.
GOP = Don't count the ballots sent after xx date. Erm..it's perfectly legal always has been.

This was all a setup from day one from Trump. Tell everyone in advance mail in voting was going to be fraudulent, try and reduce the number of places + ability for people to vote and then scream like mad on election day it's all fraud. Cos he said it would be before the election, so of course he was right all along.

Only one side here needs to be taken to court for tampering with voting, and voter supression. That's not the Dems or Bidens side as far as I can see.

tommy1808 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:02 am

Reinhardt wrote:
Election day = fake drop off boxes reported.

and we are yet to see evidence that the GOP didn´t just light the ballots in those drop off boxes on fire, and actually delivered them to be counted.

best regards
Thomas

astuteman · Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:49 am

N14AZ wrote:
Tugger wrote:
The people who look there can't tell it's fake, not true, because that's not what they are looking for or want.

Tugg

That’s the main issue I have with the Trump movement. They even don’t care if it’s true or not. Something which would be okay if it was about a Hollywood movie or Wrestling or something like this... I guess my engineering background does not help in developing a more flexible attitude when it comes to facts.

So when will they finish counting? It’s more than a week since election day :-/

Reality TV show brought to life in the leadership of the (currently) most powerful country in the world.

I just wish some people could see why its important to be able to distinguish between Reality TV and reality when its played out at this level ....

Rgds

seahawk · Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:18 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
This is so damaging to the democratic system, especially as first the Democrats talked about fraud and Russian meddling .

How many democrats wanted ballots for Trump tossed out because of fraud and Clinton declared winner by the Supreme court? Zero...

Russian meddling was absolutely real, and the problem with that comes from Republicans denying that fact....

So.. the two situations have just about nothing in common....

Best regards
Thomas

The why does not matter. In 2016 there were also recounts and allegations of fraud, 2020 it is way worth but basically the same message: Politicians do not trust the voting system. The damage to the democratic system will be huge and it would need a sharp u-turn for both parties to remedy the damaging effect in the coming decade. But maybe the Republicans surprise us all and take a clear position against Trump and for the democratic system. I just do not believe they will.

94717 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:26 am

tommy1808 wrote:
olle wrote:
Why do not Texas want young people to vote?

they tend to vote for Democrats, and for the 2020 GOP that makes their votes suspiciously illegal.

best regards
Thomas

For me this a fundamental part of democratic election. Everyone in a country that is in charge of their own actions shall have the right to vote.

Any try to remove this right from a citizen is fraud or a try to fraud.

Lilienthal · Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:43 am

seahawk wrote:

The why does not matter.

But it does matter.

The notion that "facts don't matter" is a result of partisan media and internet filter bubbles and plays into the "both sides" narrative, as if everyone's bad and everyone's getting it wrong. That's just not true. The supposed "countrywide fraud" allegations are way worse than anything in 2016 or any other election, and they are so far completely baseless and without evidence. Plus most people tend to ignore the run-up to the election when the Trump administration actively laid the groundwork for all of this.

I'm sorry, but the "both sides" narrative is not justified here. This is on the Trump administration and it's followers. Lot's of Republicans and even Fox News, for heavens sake, have distanced themselves already from this destructive and dangerous post-election campaign.

astuteman · Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:43 am

Arizona's GOP Attorney General says people voted Republican down-ballot, but didn't vote for Trump

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us ... d=msedgntp

He quotes the number of contested ballots in AZ as less than 200.....

The Trump campaign actions appear more bizarre by the day..

Rgds

seahawk · Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:20 pm

Lilienthal wrote:
seahawk wrote:

The why does not matter.

But it does matter.

The notion that "facts don't matter" is a result of partisan media and internet filter bubbles and plays into the "both sides" narrative, as if everyone's bad and everyone's getting it wrong. That's just not true. The supposed "countrywide fraud" allegations are way worse than anything in 2016 or any other election, and they are so far completely baseless and without evidence. Plus most people tend to ignore the run-up to the election when the Trump administration actively laid the groundwork for all of this.

I'm sorry, but the "both sides" narrative is not justified here. This is on the Trump administration and it's followers. Lot's of Republicans and even Fox News, for heavens sake, have distanced themselves already from this destructive and dangerous post-election campaign.

You are missing my point. to damage the trust in the democratic system facts do not matter. On a much smaller level and for a much shorter time the Democrats and Greens also considered fraud and demanded recounts in 2016 as an option. Trump takes this to a very different level and already did in 2016/2017 with the "Presidential Advisory Commission on Election Integrity", but in the end both sides need to stop this, otherwise the system will be tainted in the eyes of the public. Both sides do it is not an excuse for what Trump does, it is a really serious threat to the system and the acceptance of the democratic system within the society.

casinterest · Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:30 pm

c933103 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Right now there is far too much allowed of the opinion figures on the Right Wing. Mostly because the people that pay attention to it, lack the education to ignore hyperbole, misdirection, propaganda, and marketing. The issue occurs on the left side as much, but because as can be seen most of the productivity skews towards Liberal markets, the message of mass calamity does not spread there.

Can you really say the left wing of the US is "economically" liberal?

Yes it is . Especially within the US. The main issues though are that companies do need to be held back from exploiting labor. That is not in conflict with liberal economics.

c933103 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
This puts Republican politicians in a bind. Do they compromise as Democrats attempt to do, or hold out and keep making bad decisions, while blaming the left, on their constituents behalf. It keeps their constituents angry enough to keep most of them in power, but slowly they lose their markets and their messaging. The current situation with Trump shows the issue. Trump lost the election, but here he is daring Republicans to cross the lines so he can punish them as well with his power to control the message and the base.

Some sort of fairness doctrine needs to be put back in place as right now far too many Trumplicans are watching the Fox News version of the Jerry Springer show, and they think it is real.

Fairness doesn't just work one way.

No it doesn't, but at the end of the day, it is not the folks that live in dense urban competitive markets that need it. It is the folks in the rural areas where big companies such Sinclair have gutted news rooms and controlled the messages to all those :"Red Counties"
[/quote]

c933103 wrote:
Not just education and infrastructure, but also connectivity with rest of the world, ability to attract talents, and such. Many of these factors are difficult to impossible to attain outside big cities even if it is America.

Very true, as evidenced above with companies such as Sinclair and Fox News Radio networks.

75driver wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Mostly because the people that pay attention to it, lack the education to ignore hyperbole, misdirection, propaganda, and marketing.

This is the most misrepresented fallacy I see repeated. Do you not think there is somewhat of a trade off between uneducated urban voters and uneducated rural voters? I would say they might even cancel each other out. As long as Democrats continue to think it’s the uneducated masses supporting republicans there will never be civil debate on the issues when that’s your starting position. This kind of thinking needs to be banished forever.

There is a big tradeoff as stated above. Urban voters get the whole story surrounding them by reality and competing Media Markets . Rural voters get fed their view of life by controlling entities such as Sinclair Networks or Fox News Radio. Those with less education aren't able to discern that they are already being controlled in their thoughts by being fed one sided information. As evidenced by the GDP graphic, people in demographic areas prone to democratic voting are far from lazy, and far from productive, yet that is the prevailing lie of Right wing sources.
As for banishing thinking positions, why don't you try to understand media monopolies and misinformation rather than banning opposite thought points?

Banning Opposition is something that China does regularly.

Aesma wrote:

There is no need to go that far. The GOP if the party of business, the party of money, the party of less taxes leading to more business and more jobs. Yet where the GOP has power, there is less business and less money.

This is in a nutshell the biggest issue with the GOP. They pretend Businesses are people, and they ignore the needs to the people .

tommy1808 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:56 pm

seahawk wrote:
Lilienthal wrote:
seahawk wrote:

The why does not matter.

But it does matter.

The notion that "facts don't matter" is a result of partisan media and internet filter bubbles and plays into the "both sides" narrative, as if everyone's bad and everyone's getting it wrong. That's just not true. The supposed "countrywide fraud" allegations are way worse than anything in 2016 or any other election, and they are so far completely baseless and without evidence. Plus most people tend to ignore the run-up to the election when the Trump administration actively laid the groundwork for all of this.

I'm sorry, but the "both sides" narrative is not justified here. This is on the Trump administration and it's followers. Lot's of Republicans and even Fox News, for heavens sake, have distanced themselves already from this destructive and dangerous post-election campaign.

You are missing my point. to damage the trust in the democratic system facts do not matter. On a much smaller level and for a much shorter time the Democrats and Greens also considered fraud and demanded recounts in 2016 as an option.

Clinton conceded on the next day, and the media called Trump president elect.There is nothing comparable going on.

The only consistent claim of fraud in 2016 came from the GOP.

best regards
Thomas

casinterest · Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:17 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Lilienthal wrote:

But it does matter.

The notion that "facts don't matter" is a result of partisan media and internet filter bubbles and plays into the "both sides" narrative, as if everyone's bad and everyone's getting it wrong. That's just not true. The supposed "countrywide fraud" allegations are way worse than anything in 2016 or any other election, and they are so far completely baseless and without evidence. Plus most people tend to ignore the run-up to the election when the Trump administration actively laid the groundwork for all of this.

I'm sorry, but the "both sides" narrative is not justified here. This is on the Trump administration and it's followers. Lot's of Republicans and even Fox News, for heavens sake, have distanced themselves already from this destructive and dangerous post-election campaign.

You are missing my point. to damage the trust in the democratic system facts do not matter. On a much smaller level and for a much shorter time the Democrats and Greens also considered fraud and demanded recounts in 2016 as an option.

Clinton conceded on the next day, and the media called Trump president elect.There is nothing comparable going on.

The only consistent claim of fraud in 2016 came from the GOP.

best regards
Thomas

The Democratic leadership never demanded a recount. This is something that Trump is demanding. Trump claimed fraud in 2016, when he lost by over 3 million in the popular vote, but no fraud was ever found, and the committees Trump created to investigate disbanded with nothing found.

https://apnews.com/article/f5f6a73b2af5 ... b35e82c18d

PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — The now-disbanded voting integrity commission launched by the Trump administration uncovered no evidence to support claims of widespread voter fraud, according to an analysis of administration documents released Friday.

Lilienthal · Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:23 pm

seahawk wrote:
but in the end both sides need to stop this

It's not both sides. It's one side. The Trump administration and it's followers. That was my point.

Please read the section on vote tempering concerns in the 2016 election:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Unit ... g_concerns

One person suggested a recount in certain states to the Clinton campaign, which quickly went nowhere. And the Obama administration said that the results "accurately reflect the will of the American people".

I agree with your overall point but please be accurate about it. Only one camp has been suggesting a country-wide voter fraud without evidence: President Trump and his followers.

EDIT: And actually, lots and lots of Republicans have already criticized and distanced themselves from the Trump camp, so it's probably wrong to speak about "the two sides" anyway.

astuteman · Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:09 pm

Interesting piece by David Sirota in the Guardian

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/re ... d=msedgntp

Republicans aren't conceding – and Democrats are bringing a knife to a gun fight

Quite disturbing. What do our US colleagues think?

Rgds

casinterest · Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:16 pm

astuteman wrote:
Interesting piece by David Sirota in the Guardian

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/re ... d=msedgntp

Republicans aren't conceding – and Democrats are bringing a knife to a gun fight

Quite disturbing. What do our US colleagues think?

Rgds

It will not happen. The legislature would be under siege in those states. If we had faithless electors, then that state would have failed, and there would be statewide lawsuits against those legislatures that would never make it to the federal level.

Here is what is really happening in the Cult of Trump.

https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/11/the- ... inion.html

Just as Trump ranted about global warming as farce and dismissed the need to wear masks in public to prevent the spread of COVID-19, the GOP used Brooks to further their false claim that voter fraud was prevalent in this election. The propagandization of these lies have found their way into our daily lives. Their materialization can be seen in the culture’s bottomless need to vomit up whatever unchecked impulse wants to come up. Discernment, it seems, has become obsolete.

As the world declared that Biden had won, we all hope for a new U.S. public discourse. So, in pursuit of our better angels, we must be quick to discern unsupported claims and realize that it is truth, not power, that will carry the day.

Below is a highly amazing document from Psycology today about when Narcissist's fail. Take a good read, and think about Trump's success and failures over the last four years.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... sist-fails

the following are 3 of the 14 behaviors.

They will falsely claim that everything is fine and that there is nothing wrong. They will try to first misdirect us or claim there is nothing to the allegations or circumstances.

If evidence is presented, they will seek to have it invalidated or claim that it is false, fake, or a product of vague conspiracies, but most certainly not true.

Any evidence presented, and those that present it will be attacked aggressively and vindictively. The better the evidence the more aggressive the attack. Individuals who are doing the right thing by reporting criminal acts, unethical behavior, or failings are to be discredited, humiliated, hounded and bullied—not even their families are to be spared if need be. The narcissist will engage supporters or enablers to simultaneously attack those who offer proof or evidence, even if it embarrassingly exposes their poodle-like behavior as that of spineless sycophants.

Tugger · Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:31 pm

casinterest wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Interesting piece by David Sirota in the Guardian

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/re ... d=msedgntp

Republicans aren't conceding – and Democrats are bringing a knife to a gun fight

Quite disturbing. What do our US colleagues think?

Rgds

It will not happen. The legislature would be under siege in those states. If we had faithless electors, then that state would have failed, and there would be statewide lawsuits against those legislatures that would never make it to the federal level.

I agree, it won't happen. The article notes:

Taking their cue from Trump, both legislative chambers claim that the certified popular vote cannot be trusted because of the blue shift that occurred in overtime. Therefore, the two chambers claim to have the constitutional right to supersede the popular vote and assert direct authority to appoint the state’s presidential electors, so that this appointment is in line with the popular vote tally as it existed on Election Night,

However there is no way they can "override" when there is no issue or fraud found with the ballots and count. They can't just say "I don't trust it". And finally, just in case Republicans do want to test the idea of destroying the USA there are not sufficient state legislatures to do this. It is more than one state and states have faith in their systems and processes. And those are showing the votes to be what it is.

Tugg

ssteve · Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
They can't just say "I don't trust it".

GOP legislatures aren't as consistent in providing logical rationale as you infer here. A lot of voting restrictions have been passed with flimsy arguments.

That said, ignoring the presidential popular vote might be a bridge too far even for the Wisconsin GOP, to say nothing of less gerrymandered states. State GOPs are going to want to gerrymander some more, not pick this fight.

The no-Trump, downballot GOP vote, I think, turned out really strong. A lot of people out there drink from the firehose of Fox News and similar media that would have you think every Democrat is ready to seize all your assets to give them to shiftless deadbeats, but voting against Trump but *for* all of the local QAnon nutjobs lets them think they are not just party line voters.

marcelh · Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:12 pm

astuteman wrote:
Interesting piece by David Sirota in the Guardian

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/re ... d=msedgntp

Republicans aren't conceding – and Democrats are bringing a knife to a gun fight

Quite disturbing. What do our US colleagues think?

Rgds

A coup is appropriate for someone who has a crush for dictators.

DL717 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:51 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
This is so damaging to the democratic system, especially as first the Democrats talked about fraud and Russian meddling .

How many democrats wanted ballots for Trump tossed out because of fraud and Clinton declared winner by the Supreme court? Zero...

Russian meddling was absolutely real, and the problem with that comes from Republicans denying that fact....

So.. the two situations have just about nothing in common....

Best regards
Thomas

They just falsely declared him illegitimate while the media held their jock (and still do), in spite of it being demonstrated the Russia collusion was hose crap.

And people wonder why we are so divided. All you had to do is watch the town hall interviews during debate season to see the gross bias of the media on full display. What crap.

DL717 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:53 pm

marcelh wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Interesting piece by David Sirota in the Guardian

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/re ... d=msedgntp

Republicans aren't conceding – and Democrats are bringing a knife to a gun fight

Quite disturbing. What do our US colleagues think?

Rgds

A coup is appropriate for someone who has a crush for dictators.

Crush for power. Fixed it for you. Since a majority party in the US doesn’t anoint a leader, there won’t be a dictator here. Sorry Charlie.

tommy1808 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:55 pm

DL717 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
This is so damaging to the democratic system, especially as first the Democrats talked about fraud and Russian meddling .

How many democrats wanted ballots for Trump tossed out because of fraud and Clinton declared winner by the Supreme court? Zero...

Russian meddling was absolutely real, and the problem with that comes from Republicans denying that fact....

So.. the two situations have just about nothing in common....

Best regards
Thomas

They just falsely declared him illegitimate while the media held their jock (and still do), in spite of it being demonstrated the Russia collusion was hose crap.

Ah.. so you still didn't read the Mueller Report. Hint, the evidence for collusion was so overwhelming that Mueller felt the need to justify why he didn't indict anyone despite its preponderance.

If they had considered him illegitimate, they would have impeached him for it. They didn't. So that claim is obviously false as well.

Best regards
Thomas

DL717 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

How many democrats wanted ballots for Trump tossed out because of fraud and Clinton declared winner by the Supreme court? Zero...

Russian meddling was absolutely real, and the problem with that comes from Republicans denying that fact....

So.. the two situations have just about nothing in common....

Best regards
Thomas

They just falsely declared him illegitimate while the media held their jock (and still do), in spite of it being demonstrated the Russia collusion was hose crap.

Ah.. so you still didn't read the Mueller Report. Hint, the evidence for collusion was so overwhelming that Mueller felt the need to justify why he didn't indict anyone despite its preponderance.

If they had considered him illegitimate, they would have impeached him for it. They didn't. So that claim is obviously false as well.

Best regards
Thomas

Oh brother. Mueller mueller mueller. Must be why people are backtracking on the false warrants they filed. Moving on.

ltbewr · Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:03 pm

Covid-19 pandemic in the USA is on its way to a horrible '2nd wave', with hospitals already overwhelmed in a number of states and meanwhile Trump continues his dangerous, delusional and denying behaviors in rejecting that unofficially but practically by substantial margins has lost he re-election. All Trump cares about is his getting re-elected for his selfish reasons rather than take actions he should to save Americans, not mass murder them. It also delays the ability for the economy to recover or reach some stability we can deal with.

Maybe if the DJA went down 5000 points in a few days from it, or some Republican party leaders were true patriots instead of sniveling minions, Trump would make a concession speech and move forward with the transition to Biden instead of acting like a demented jerk. He has not spoken publicly since last Thursday except by Twitter or through 3rd parties. His battle included raising funds for his challenges to votes in key states may be more about raising funds for dealing with campaign or personal debt, one last con job while in office. He is replacing at record rates key civilians at the Pentagon and other areas of government with butt-kissers, not real administrators. He is downright dangerous right now, I wonder how long before he does some more of his fuhrer rallies and encourages violence against elections officials, Democrats and Biden himself.
.

casinterest · Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:25 pm

DL717 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

They just falsely declared him illegitimate while the media held their jock (and still do), in spite of it being demonstrated the Russia collusion was hose crap.

Ah.. so you still didn't read the Mueller Report. Hint, the evidence for collusion was so overwhelming that Mueller felt the need to justify why he didn't indict anyone despite its preponderance.

If they had considered him illegitimate, they would have impeached him for it. They didn't. So that claim is obviously false as well.

Best regards
Thomas

Oh brother. Mueller mueller mueller. Must be why people are backtracking on the false warrants they filed. Moving on.

The Mueller report was valid and pointed to issues that the Stockholm syndrome GOP members couldn't bring themselves to accept. You want further proof? Look at how long it is taking the GOP to separate themselves from the Malignant Narcissist that is Donald Trump. They are starting to slowly peel back.

tommy1808 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:36 pm

casinterest wrote:
DL717 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Ah.. so you still didn't read the Mueller Report. Hint, the evidence for collusion was so overwhelming that Mueller felt the need to justify why he didn't indict anyone despite its preponderance.

If they had considered him illegitimate, they would have impeached him for it. They didn't. So that claim is obviously false as well.

Best regards
Thomas

Oh brother. Mueller mueller mueller. Must be why people are backtracking on the false warrants they filed. Moving on.

The Mueller report was valid and pointed to issues that the Stockholm syndrome GOP members couldn't bring themselves to accept. You want further proof? Look at how long it is taking the GOP to separate themselves from the Malignant Narcissist that is Donald Trump. They are starting to slowly peel back.

He knows everything in the report is true, just as he knows the IG report didn't say what Fox told him it says..otherwise they would read it and quote a hel lot more from them instead of the always same out of context quotes.

Mueller also found 10 felony obstructions of justice on Trumps part.....

Best regards
Thomas

phatfarmlines · Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:41 pm

I still think fraud could occur at the Electoral College level. Trump's final opportunity to "influence" the election will occur at the Electoral College. The Electoral College voting, set to take place in early 2021, will be presided by VP Pence. Since Trump is a no-holds-barred type of guy, if the Trump GOP pays off enough faithless electors, could the switch happen?

Faithless electors: Could they impact 2020 election results? (Source: Fox9 News Minneapolis)

Supreme Court says states can punish Electoral College voters (Source: CNN)

Can Georgia's presidential electors vote for anyone they want? (Source: 11Alive News Atlanta)

casinterest · Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:49 pm

Trump and OAN are spreading baseless lies about Dominion voting system.

Here is the real story for those of you reading Trump's Narcissistic spiral tweets.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/rumor ... ud-claims/

The erroneous reporting of unofficial results from Antrim county was a result of accidental error on the part of the Antrim County Clerk. The equipment and software did not malfunction and all ballots were properly tabulated. However, the clerk accidentally did not update the software used to collect voting machine data and report unofficial results.

seb146 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:29 pm

seahawk wrote:
This is so damaging to the democratic system, especially as first the Democrats talked about fraud and Russian meddling and now the Republicans talk about fraud again. So for the average citizen it seems neither side does trust the system enough to accept defeat, which very much looks like the system must be not working. If people start to believe elections are fraud, they are inclined to give up their right to vote willingly, which usually ends in an authoritarian government.

All the rules and restrictions set by Republican led states to take away votes but, yeah, mail in ballots are totally the only problem. Just because far right wing extremists who shout "MAGA" all the time does not mean they are truthful.

How many fraudulent votes have there been in Oregon, Utah, and Nevada?

Tugger · Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:31 pm

casinterest wrote:
Trump and OAN are spreading baseless lies about Dominion voting system.

Here is the real story for those of you reading Trump's Narcissistic spiral tweets.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/rumor ... ud-claims/

The erroneous reporting of unofficial results from Antrim county was a result of accidental error on the part of the Antrim County Clerk. The equipment and software did not malfunction and all ballots were properly tabulated. However, the clerk accidentally did not update the software used to collect voting machine data and report unofficial results.

And another read on what happened:

This story should be one that takes what could have been a big worry and instead gives us cause for relief. Instead of just direct-recording electronic voting machines (DREs) and election systems that don’t have fail-safes for errors, Michigan had good error-checking, and the error was caught quickly. Even if it hadn’t been, it is very likely that it would have been caught later, as the results shifted from unofficial to official. And it wasn’t even a computer or software error; it was a human one. But, of course, systems should take steps to protect against errors by humans running them too.

Bottom line: No fire alarm needed. Whew! We should see this story a win for election security. It must not be promoted further as evidence of a fraud. It is, in fact, evidence of the safeguards against fraud working.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/11/e ... -situation

The key take away is that this is NOT any kind of evidence of fraud. Not that the "but Hillary... but Obama... but fraud!!" crowd will see anything but their buts.

Tugg

seahawk · Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:38 pm

seb146 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
This is so damaging to the democratic system, especially as first the Democrats talked about fraud and Russian meddling and now the Republicans talk about fraud again. So for the average citizen it seems neither side does trust the system enough to accept defeat, which very much looks like the system must be not working. If people start to believe elections are fraud, they are inclined to give up their right to vote willingly, which usually ends in an authoritarian government.

All the rules and restrictions set by Republican led states to take away votes but, yeah, mail in ballots are totally the only problem. Just because far right wing extremists who shout "MAGA" all the time does not mean they are truthful.

How many fraudulent votes have there been in Oregon, Utah, and Nevada?

If it would only be the MAGA fans, it would be an isolated group with little credibility. But this fraud allegations are popping up again and again since Gore lost. Trump said the same about the 2012 election already. Trump needs to go and the Republican party needs to throw him out, if they want to be seen as a democratic party. Loosing an election is not a reason to question the whole democratic system, it is part of the normal democratic process.

seb146 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:38 pm

DL717 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Interesting piece by David Sirota in the Guardian

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/re ... d=msedgntp

Quite disturbing. What do our US colleagues think?

Rgds

A coup is appropriate for someone who has a crush for dictators.

Crush for power. Fixed it for you. Since a majority party in the US doesn’t anoint a leader, there won’t be a dictator here. Sorry Charlie.

Republicans in the Senate could not fill court positions fast enough beginning in 2017, which were rightfully Obama's to fill, but we can't have a Democrat filling any seats. Also, look at the end run around Congress in his cabinet and advisory positions. All of the "acting" secretaries and "acting" chiefs and "acting" personnel. Oh, and your boy is now replacing senior staff at the Pentagon fast and furious with his own hand picked team. To what end? We don't know

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/1 ... gns-435693
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 242106002/
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... 87edb4c839

Of course, because this is not being reported on OAN or 4Chan or any of the right wing extremist outlets, it is fake and not worth talking about, right?

seb146 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:43 pm

seahawk wrote:
seb146 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
This is so damaging to the democratic system, especially as first the Democrats talked about fraud and Russian meddling and now the Republicans talk about fraud again. So for the average citizen it seems neither side does trust the system enough to accept defeat, which very much looks like the system must be not working. If people start to believe elections are fraud, they are inclined to give up their right to vote willingly, which usually ends in an authoritarian government.

All the rules and restrictions set by Republican led states to take away votes but, yeah, mail in ballots are totally the only problem. Just because far right wing extremists who shout "MAGA" all the time does not mean they are truthful.

How many fraudulent votes have there been in Oregon, Utah, and Nevada?

If it would only be the MAGA fans, it would be an isolated group with little credibility. But this fraud allegations are popping up again and again since Gore lost. Trump said the same about the 2012 election already. Trump needs to go and the Republican party needs to throw him out, if they want to be seen as a democratic party. Loosing an election is not a reason to question the whole democratic system, it is part of the normal democratic process.

Many people believe the 2000 election should have been decided at the state level, and not the federal level. States are responsible for picking Electoral College representatives. Those votes in the individual states have nothing to do with the federal government. That was the issue with Bush v. Gore. Since then, there have been a very few number of actual fraudulent votes. Like in the hundreds or lower since 2000. Refresh our memories: who was it that told people to vote twice in North Carolina in this election? Was it the leader of the Republican party or the leader of the Democratic party? That right there speaks volumes. Which leader kept demanding again and again that mail in votes are illegal? Republican or Democrat? Again, speaks volumes.

N867DA · Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:39 pm

seahawk wrote:
seb146 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
This is so damaging to the democratic system, especially as first the Democrats talked about fraud and Russian meddling and now the Republicans talk about fraud again. So for the average citizen it seems neither side does trust the system enough to accept defeat, which very much looks like the system must be not working. If people start to believe elections are fraud, they are inclined to give up their right to vote willingly, which usually ends in an authoritarian government.

All the rules and restrictions set by Republican led states to take away votes but, yeah, mail in ballots are totally the only problem. Just because far right wing extremists who shout "MAGA" all the time does not mean they are truthful.

How many fraudulent votes have there been in Oregon, Utah, and Nevada?

If it would only be the MAGA fans, it would be an isolated group with little credibility. But this fraud allegations are popping up again and again since Gore lost. Trump said the same about the 2012 election already. Trump needs to go and the Republican party needs to throw him out, if they want to be seen as a democratic party. Loosing an election is not a reason to question the whole democratic system, it is part of the normal democratic process.

Two points: Contested elections aren't anything new. Many people still believe John F. Kennedy won Illinois (and consequently, the presidency) thanks to corruption in Chicago. Many people believe Ronald Reagan intervened to keep Americans in hostage in Iran longer than necessary to harm Carter. Still others believe Nixon prolonged the Vietnam War to make his opponents look worse.

Also, Donald Trump likely knows he has lost but cannot leave amicably for the same reason people like him--his narcissism and brashness.The source is quite liberal (pro-Democratic in the US) but perhaps the facts are sound: https://www.vox.com/2020/11/12/21562334 ... biden-2024

He is certainly free to contest and prolong; that is his right as an American. But I wish he'd concede soon so government can assuredly transfer and things can go back to normal. I strongly hope that once Trump leaves office and time goes on the cult of Trump dies and get replaced by more level-headed statesmen and stateswomen.

bennett123 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:45 pm

I think there is zero evidence that he will concede any time soon.

I notice that one person recently replaced was Mark Esper at DOD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Esper

Esper broke with Trump by publicly opposing invocation of the Insurrection Act of 1807 and the deployment of active-duty troops in American cities, saying that "the National Guard is best suited for performing domestic support to civil authorities ... I say this not only as Secretary of Defense, but also as a former soldier, and a former member of the National Guard. The option to use active duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort, and only in the most urgent and dire of situations. We are not in one of those situations now. I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act."[76] Esper took steps in the following days to further de-escalate the situation, removing weapons and ammunition from the National Guard, and returning troops to their home bases without notifying the White House. Trump reportedly considered firing Esper over the situation.[77]

He was replaced by;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_C._Miller

Christopher Charles Miller (born October 15, 1965)[1] is an American Department of Defense official who is serving as the director of the National Counterterrorism Center, a role to which he was confirmed by the Senate by voice vote on August 6, 2020.[2][3][4] He was named Acting Secretary of Defense by President Donald Trump on November 9, 2020, following Trump's firing of Secretary of Defense Mark Esper.[5][6][7][8]

Does make me wonder what the President has in mind, especially given the reason for the rift with Mark Esper.

Incidentally, what is the timeline for confirming Christopher Miller?.

luckyone · Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:50 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I think there is zro evidence that he will concede any time soon.

Michael Cohen has speculated that Trump will ride out the legal challenge season, do his normal Christmas in Mar-a-Lago and just simply not return.

bennett123 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:56 pm

Wonder how many pardons will be given out before the end of the year.

rfields5421 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:35 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I think there is zero evidence that he will concede any time soon.

I notice that one person recently replaced was Mark Esper at DOD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Esper

Esper broke with Trump by publicly opposing invocation of the Insurrection Act of 1807 and the deployment of active-duty troops in American cities, saying that "the National Guard is best suited for performing domestic support to civil authorities ... I say this not only as Secretary of Defense, but also as a former soldier, and a former member of the National Guard. The option to use active duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort, and only in the most urgent and dire of situations. We are not in one of those situations now. I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act."[76] Esper took steps in the following days to further de-escalate the situation, removing weapons and ammunition from the National Guard, and returning troops to their home bases without notifying the White House. Trump reportedly considered firing Esper over the situation.[77]

He was replaced by;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_C._Miller

Christopher Charles Miller (born October 15, 1965)[1] is an American Department of Defense official who is serving as the director of the National Counterterrorism Center, a role to which he was confirmed by the Senate by voice vote on August 6, 2020.[2][3][4] He was named Acting Secretary of Defense by President Donald Trump on November 9, 2020, following Trump's firing of Secretary of Defense Mark Esper.[5][6][7][8]

Does make me wonder what the President has in mind, especially given the reason for the rift with Mark Esper.

Incidentally, what is the timeline for confirming Christopher Miller?.

There is no information that Miller has been nominated to be Secretary of Defense, so there are no plans for confirmation hearings at this time.

Right now he is 'acting' and many positions requiring Senate approval have not been filled over the past four years, with some people 'acting' for years.

This has occurred in the past in other administrations. I cannot say how common the practice is.

Miller's ability to change DOD policy will be limited, and the leadership of the US military most strongly was not want to get involved in this current controversy. Esper knew that much of his top uniformed leadership would resign and take public their reasons for refusing to use Active Duty troops in such a manner.

On Nov 10, DOD sent out department wide information, reminding people, uniformed and civilian, of the restrictions upon them related to political activity.

https://www.defense.gov/Explore/News/Article/Article/2411909/rules-describe-permitted-prohibited-post-election-activities/

ER757 · Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:37 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
I still think fraud could occur at the Electoral College level. Trump's final opportunity to "influence" the election will occur at the Electoral College. The Electoral College voting, set to take place in early 2021, will be presided by VP Pence. Since Trump is a no-holds-barred type of guy, if the Trump GOP pays off enough faithless electors, could the switch happen?

Faithless electors: Could they impact 2020 election results? (Source: Fox9 News Minneapolis)

Supreme Court says states can punish Electoral College voters (Source: CNN)

Can Georgia's presidential electors vote for anyone they want? (Source: 11Alive News Atlanta)

i don't think this would happen. There are way too many Republican legislators who at some point are going to start to look after their own political future and not want to get voted out next time they are up for re-election. They'll end up looking out for themselves if it were to come to this. If it does happen, then Trump and his goons will have pulled off a coup, nothing less, and the USA will be looked at like a 3rd world banana republic.

Aaron747 · Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:03 am

ER757 wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
I still think fraud could occur at the Electoral College level. Trump's final opportunity to "influence" the election will occur at the Electoral College. The Electoral College voting, set to take place in early 2021, will be presided by VP Pence. Since Trump is a no-holds-barred type of guy, if the Trump GOP pays off enough faithless electors, could the switch happen?

Faithless electors: Could they impact 2020 election results? (Source: Fox9 News Minneapolis)

Supreme Court says states can punish Electoral College voters (Source: CNN)

Can Georgia's presidential electors vote for anyone they want? (Source: 11Alive News Atlanta)

i don't think this would happen. There are way too many Republican legislators who at some point are going to start to look after their own political future and not want to get voted out next time they are up for re-election. They'll end up looking out for themselves if it were to come to this. If it does happen, then Trump and his goons will have pulled off a coup, nothing less, and the USA will be looked at like a 3rd world banana republic.

As Jimmy Kimmel said, it'll be the first time in US history that people who spell it 'c-o-o' have supported a coup.

Francoflier · Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:11 am

You know it's bad when even Karl Rove is calling for Trump to concede...

Remember when we thought Karl Rove was the epitome of toxic, obscene and sickening ultra-partisan political maneuvering and we believed that surely American politics could not fall any lower?

Mmmm... good times. :innocent:

moo · Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:15 am

CNN and NYT finally call Arizona for Buden.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/12/poli ... index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/11/12 ... iden-trump

bennett123 · Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:18 am

rfields5421

So why change the Defence Secretary at this stage?.

tommy1808 · Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:25 am

bennett123 wrote:
rfields5421

So why change the Defence Secretary at this stage?.

hope to abuse the military for his coup.

best regards
Thomas

art · Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:43 am

moo wrote:
CNN and NYT finally call Arizona for Buden.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/12/poli ... index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/11/12 ... iden-trump

I am sure that Trump would have won here had he shown John McCain some of the respect he was due.

tommy1808 · Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:48 am

art wrote:
moo wrote:
CNN and NYT finally call Arizona for Buden.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/12/poli ... index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/11/12 ... iden-trump

I am sure that Trump would have won here had he shown John McCain some of the respect he was due.

or if his own administrations Anti-Cyberattack unit had been less successful. But since they where highly effective those people are of course now getting fired....

https://de.reuters.com/article/usa-cybe ... NKBN27T07E

best regards
Thomas

zkojq · Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:36 am

Interesting to see court hijinks where lawyers know that they can't perjure themselves...but also don't have any evidence of the fraud that their lawsuit claims.

Trump Lawyer to Pennsylvania Judge: Nope, I’ve Got No Evidence of Voter Fraud

President Donald J. Trump has been aggressively pursuing voter fraud in the courts — but in Montgomery County, even his own lawyers admit there's no grand conspiracy afoot.

In case after case, the Trump campaign’s lawyers have been trying to exclude votes, deny results or otherwise delay the inevitable – and in case after case, the lawyers have had very little law on their side. And it lays bare how little evidence there is for the larger claims of massive fraud or complex conspiracies being issued by the president.

Why, right here in Montgomery County, the Trump campaign and the Republican National Committee have filed suit against the Montgomery County Board of Elections in an effort to stop the county from counting mail in ballots. The complaint centers on 592 mail in ballots that the suit claims were counted but should not have been, due to irregularities or “deficiencies,” as the lawsuit puts it, on the outer mailing envelope.In its response, filed in court on Monday, the Montgomery County Board of Elections insists that there was nothing actually wrong with those 592 envelopes and that the suit is just another example of the campaign challenging an election with no actual legal basis to do so.

Jonathan Goldstein, the Hatfield-based attorney representing the Trump campaign, did his best to make some sort of logical argument in front of the judge hearing the case, referring to what the board was doing as a “scheme.” But the judge seemed confused as to whether the campaign was actually claiming voter fraud. “In your petition, which is right before me — and I read it several times — you don’t claim that any electors or the Board of the County were guilty of fraud, correct?” asked the judge. “That’s correct?”

“Your Honor, accusing people of fraud is a pretty big step,” Goldstein replied. “And it is rare that I call somebody a liar, and I am not calling the Board of the DNC or anybody else involved in this a liar. Everybody is coming to this with good faith. The DNC is coming with good faith. We’re all just trying to get an election done. We think these were a mistake, but we think they are a fatal mistake, and these ballots ought not be counted.”

Given that Goldstein tried to dodge the exact question about voter fraud, the judge restated it. “I understand,” he told Goldstein. “I am asking you a specific question, and I am looking for a specific answer. Are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with these 592 disputed ballots?”

“To my knowledge at present, no,” Goldstein said.

“Are you claiming that there is any undue or improper influence upon the elector with respect to these 592 ballots,” queried the judge.

“To my knowledge at present, no,” was Goldstein’s reply.

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2020/11/ ... -lawsuits/

Dutchy · Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:37 am

art wrote:
moo wrote:
CNN and NYT finally call Arizona for Buden.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/12/poli ... index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/11/12 ... iden-trump

I am sure that Trump would have won here had he shown John McCain some of the respect he was due.

Oh wouw, how does that work? Show some respect to mr. McCain and all things are fine? Does the electorate forget all the negative things that have occurred in the past 4 years? The handling of the Corona pandemic very much included in that.

moo · Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
art wrote:
moo wrote:
CNN and NYT finally call Arizona for Buden.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/12/poli ... index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/11/12 ... iden-trump

I am sure that Trump would have won here had he shown John McCain some of the respect he was due.

Oh wouw, how does that work? Show some respect to mr. McCain and all things are fine? Does the electorate forget all the negative things that have occurred in the past 4 years? The handling of the Corona pandemic very much included in that.

Nearly 70 million *did* either forget or ignore all the negative things of the past 4 years - it makes sense that if Trump hadnt gone after McCain like he did, with so much bile and disrespect, Arizona might have had less reason to hate Trump...

cpd · Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:19 am

zkojq wrote:
Interesting to see court hijinks where lawyers know that they can't perjure themselves...but also don't have any evidence of the fraud that their lawsuit claims.

Trump Lawyer to Pennsylvania Judge: Nope, I’ve Got No Evidence of Voter Fraud

President Donald J. Trump has been aggressively pursuing voter fraud in the courts — but in Montgomery County, even his own lawyers admit there's no grand conspiracy afoot.

In case after case, the Trump campaign’s lawyers have been trying to exclude votes, deny results or otherwise delay the inevitable – and in case after case, the lawyers have had very little law on their side. And it lays bare how little evidence there is for the larger claims of massive fraud or complex conspiracies being issued by the president.

Why, right here in Montgomery County, the Trump campaign and the Republican National Committee have filed suit against the Montgomery County Board of Elections in an effort to stop the county from counting mail in ballots. The complaint centers on 592 mail in ballots that the suit claims were counted but should not have been, due to irregularities or “deficiencies,” as the lawsuit puts it, on the outer mailing envelope.In its response, filed in court on Monday, the Montgomery County Board of Elections insists that there was nothing actually wrong with those 592 envelopes and that the suit is just another example of the campaign challenging an election with no actual legal basis to do so.

Jonathan Goldstein, the Hatfield-based attorney representing the Trump campaign, did his best to make some sort of logical argument in front of the judge hearing the case, referring to what the board was doing as a “scheme.” But the judge seemed confused as to whether the campaign was actually claiming voter fraud. “In your petition, which is right before me — and I read it several times — you don’t claim that any electors or the Board of the County were guilty of fraud, correct?” asked the judge. “That’s correct?”

“Your Honor, accusing people of fraud is a pretty big step,” Goldstein replied. “And it is rare that I call somebody a liar, and I am not calling the Board of the DNC or anybody else involved in this a liar. Everybody is coming to this with good faith. The DNC is coming with good faith. We’re all just trying to get an election done. We think these were a mistake, but we think they are a fatal mistake, and these ballots ought not be counted.”

Given that Goldstein tried to dodge the exact question about voter fraud, the judge restated it. “I understand,” he told Goldstein. “I am asking you a specific question, and I am looking for a specific answer. Are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with these 592 disputed ballots?”

“To my knowledge at present, no,” Goldstein said.

“Are you claiming that there is any undue or improper influence upon the elector with respect to these 592 ballots,” queried the judge.

“To my knowledge at present, no,” was Goldstein’s reply.

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2020/11/ ... -lawsuits/

That's all fake news:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... wsrc%5Etfw

2.7 MILLION VOTES WERE DELETED!!! And it's written in all capitals just to make sure we don't miss the point.

I don't suppose our Trump supporters here have clear, irrefutable proof of this?

The lawyers seem to want the money, but don't want to go themselves in trouble for Trump.

The rest of the Republicans should ditch Trump, he's lost and he's going to wreck the party on his way out. Are they so naive that they cannot see this?

casinterest wrote:
Trump and OAN are spreading baseless lies about Dominion voting system.

Here is the real story for those of you reading Trump's Narcissistic spiral tweets.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/rumor ... ud-claims/

The erroneous reporting of unofficial results from Antrim county was a result of accidental error on the part of the Antrim County Clerk. The equipment and software did not malfunction and all ballots were properly tabulated. However, the clerk accidentally did not update the software used to collect voting machine data and report unofficial results.

Oops, I didn't see you'd already mentioned it.

tommy1808 · Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:23 am

cpd wrote:
The lawyers seem to want the money.

wait until they find out that Trump isn´t paying ...

best regards
Thomas

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net