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Redd
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The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:32 am

So, what do you think? I agree with the concept. I think lockdowns aren't the solution.

https://gbdeclaration.org/
 
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c933103
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:03 am

Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza. 

As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e.  the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity. 

The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection. 

I think this is flawed
1. When you are infecting younger people to create "herd immunity", how can you keep them away from older people and make sure those won't be infected, especially for many families who have older familiy members living together?
2. The idea of Herd Immunity, even if it work, rely on having most people become immune to make transmission no longer ve avle to be sustained. If you only build up herd immunity among younger people, then socialization between the not-at-risk groups will still be risky since they don't have inmunity amobg each others
4. We still don't know how long immunity after infection would last, and even if they do last long enough to reach herd immunity status and even if you ignore the process of reaching so, with aging populatuon and people with different preexisting condition in many societies, is there enough health youbg indvidual necessary that can help achieve herd immunity?
5. Even if the risk is less among lower risk groups, it still seems flawed to say it's less risky than flu. There are young healthy individual who do become severe after getting the virus, and the number of such case while relatively few is still high enough to stress medical system and cause death.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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tommy1808
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:08 am

c933103 wrote:
1. When you are infecting younger people to create "herd immunity", how can you keep them away from older people and make sure those won't be infected, especially for many families who have older familiy members living together?.


easy "strict lockdown, just not for me."
Just the logical progression of "I don´t want to wear a mask, if you are afraid of Covid, just stay home".

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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seahawk
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:11 am

Herd immunity needs a long term immunity after infection. It seems as if immunity becomes questionable after about 6 months.
 
bennett123
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:19 am

The problem is that most of these ideas rely on common sense.

Big mistake.

Just seen pictures on BBC. We are just going into Lockdown for 4 weeks so thousands in London and doubtless elsewhere all getting hammered, no distancing and no face covering.

In 2 weeks big COVID spikes.
 
Redd
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:57 am

SO what do you guys think about Sweden being the only country (or the only one I am aware of) without a second spike in deaths? Something seems to be working there?
 
cpd
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:18 am

Redd wrote:
So, what do you think? I agree with the concept. I think lockdowns aren't the solution.

https://gbdeclaration.org/


Good for you, go out and get yourself infected.

And keep well away from the rest of us. :bomb:

I don’t care about Sweden or what Trump says or anything else from all the woke anti-lockdown thought police, I’m looking after my health first. And thinking of my colleagues who also cannot afford to get this.

These lockdowns happen because people cannot be trusted to act with common sense.
Last edited by cpd on Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:21 am

Sweden is announcing new COVID restrictions so it's happening there too.

As others have said separating generations is impossible, unless you want to build massive sick+old camps or something. And then you need sick and old people to also staff these, procure food somehow, etc.

Also, some younger, not that sick (diabetic but not obese for example) or not sick at all people will still have the gravest form of the illness, so if you let it rip you will still have a problem with hospital capacity at some point.

And many of the old+sick have a useful role in society, for example caring for grandchildren, so if they must isolate, you have to find ways to cover for these roles.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:55 am

cpd wrote:
I’m looking after my health first. .


i am not that concerned with my health when it comes to that, but i have 80+ year old parents, and can wait for my inheritance, so i very much care about theirs.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
VSMUT
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:22 pm

Redd wrote:
SO what do you guys think about Sweden being the only country (or the only one I am aware of) without a second spike in deaths? Something seems to be working there?


They aren't. The Sweden is getting hammered yet again.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:43 pm

Redd wrote:
So, what do you think? I agree with the concept. I think lockdowns aren't the solution.

https://gbdeclaration.org/


It is a garbage document written by politically motivated folks. It is also weeks old, and now that we are in the middle of another peak in cases and worldwide deaths, we can see that it is absolutely bunk

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... anas-covid
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
LCDFlight
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:00 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Redd wrote:
SO what do you guys think about Sweden being the only country (or the only one I am aware of) without a second spike in deaths? Something seems to be working there?


They aren't. The Sweden is getting hammered yet again.


Well, it's this issue about detections of cases versus deaths again.

It was already known that Sweden had a lot of cases. That isn't necessarily news.

The graph of deaths in Sweden is as flat as a tabletop since end of July, 3 months ago. They had what I would call a very small flare up in deaths, totaling about 50 people in the past couple weeks (about 3-5 per day). This is not getting hammered, at least not yet.


I think overall this "Declaration" accurately points out that public health people have become fixated on COVID-19 to the exclusion of other threats to health and well-being. When people are told not to make non-essential medical appointments, their lack of medical visits becomes a threat to their health. When children are forbidden from attending school, that is a clear threat to their well-being, including from a public health perspective.
 
VSMUT
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:23 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Redd wrote:
SO what do you guys think about Sweden being the only country (or the only one I am aware of) without a second spike in deaths? Something seems to be working there?


They aren't. The Sweden is getting hammered yet again.


Well, it's this issue about detections of cases versus deaths again.

It was already known that Sweden had a lot of cases. That isn't necessarily news.

The graph of deaths in Sweden is as flat as a tabletop since end of July, 3 months ago. They had what I would call a very small flare up in deaths, totaling about 50 people in the past couple weeks (about 3-5 per day). This is not getting hammered, at least not yet.


I think overall this "Declaration" accurately points out that public health people have become fixated on COVID-19 to the exclusion of other threats to health and well-being. When people are told not to make non-essential medical appointments, their lack of medical visits becomes a threat to their health. When children are forbidden from attending school, that is a clear threat to their well-being, including from a public health perspective.


The Swedish deaths haven't risen yet. It is no secret that deaths are closely tied to proper treatment, which is closely tied to having a functioning health service that isn't overrun. The hospitals in Stockholm, from what I've been told, are just about running out of space now. That's when people are going to start dying.
 
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zkojq
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:28 pm

This is just another BS culture war being fed to us which a certain demographic of people lap up, but for which most people can see through. The Anti-Lockdown nonsense relies on the premise that 1) people who are older or immunosuppressed are of lesser value than someone who isn't 2) that it's possible to continuously operate a two tier society between those who are shielding and those who aren't and 3) somehow spreading the virus widely amongst the population isn't going to fill the hospitals up to capacity (which has the downstream effect of harming those who need hospital space for emergencies as well as general stuff). Pandemic or no pandemic heart attacks and strokes still happen as does the need for kidney transplants, chemo & radiotherapy, all of which requires hospital space.

Also, I find it hilarious that the people selling this snake oil pretend to care about things like mental health and the education of poor kids. It's pretty clear to see the concern trolling for all of those who aren't willfully blind. Especially in the anglo-saxon world, the people trying to push anti-lockdown sentiment are the same ones who advocated for austerity (aka big budget cuts for education, mental health). They don't give a damn about kid's educations.


c933103 wrote:
1. When you are infecting younger people to create "herd immunity", how can you keep them away from older people and make sure those won't be infected, especially for many families who have older familiy members living together?
2. The idea of Herd Immunity, even if it work, rely on having most people become immune to make transmission no longer ve avle to be sustained. If you only build up herd immunity among younger people, then socialization between the not-at-risk groups will still be risky since they don't have inmunity amobg each others

:checkmark:

Redd wrote:
SO what do you guys think about Sweden being the only country (or the only one I am aware of) without a second spike in deaths? Something seems to be working there?


Firstly, New Zealand and Australia have both never had a second wave of deaths because an elimination strategy works (took a while in Melbourne though).


Secondly, Sweden is going through some increased Coronavirus response measures as cases soar.
Sweden has extended its local coronavirus measures to another two regions, Kronoberg and Sörmland, as the country's death toll passed 6,000.
Regional coronavirus measures now apply in Halland, Jönköping, Kronoberg, Stockholm, Sörmland, Uppsala, Skåne, Västra Götaland, Örebro and Östergötland – ten out of Sweden's 21 administrative regions.

In terms of population, much more than half the country is covered by the new rules, because the 11 regions not yet affected are mostly less densely populated parts of Sweden. the new recommendations come into effect immediately on November 5th, and urge everyone to:

    If possible refrain from having physical contact with other people than those you live with. That includes among other things a recommendation against organising or attending a party or similar social occasion. You should also avoid certain kinds of activities if they cannot be carried out without physical distance to others, such as contact sports or health or beauty care that is not medically justified.

    Refrain from being in indoor environment such as shops, shopping centres, museums, libraries, swimming pools and gyms, with the exception of for example grocery stores and pharmacies.

    Refrain from taking part in meetings, concerts, shows, sports training, matches or competitions. This does not apply to sports training for children and young people born 2005 or later.

    Businesses, organisations, and workplaces should also take measures to ensure that visitors or employees are able to follow the local coronavirus recommendations. This could include limiting the number of visitors and making sure staff can work from home.




https://www.thelocal.se/20201105/two-mo ... s-measures


Additionally, Sweden, unlike a lot of the world, has a functioning Test, Trace and Isolate system witch is worth something (the UK by comparison spend 12 Billion pounds on one which is all but completely useless).

LCDFlight wrote:
I think overall this "Declaration" accurately points out that public health people have become fixated on COVID-19 to the exclusion of other threats to health and well-being. When people are told not to make non-essential medical appointments, their lack of medical visits becomes a threat to their health. When children are forbidden from attending school, that is a clear threat to their well-being, including from a public health perspective.


:banghead: :banghead: When the hospitals are filled up with COVID patients, with staff shortages due to nurses and doctors getting the virus (or being forced into isolation) what do you think the average chemotherapy appointment looks like and how long do you think the average wait for one will be? One of the main goals of of lockdowns in the first place was to manage the case load so that hospitals wouldn't be stretched passed capacity. A hospital is useless if it's too full to treat you.
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Redd
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:36 pm

cpd wrote:
Redd wrote:
So, what do you think? I agree with the concept. I think lockdowns aren't the solution.

https://gbdeclaration.org/


Good for you, go out and get yourself infected.

And keep well away from the rest of us. :bomb:

I don’t care about Sweden or what Trump says or anything else from all the woke anti-lockdown thought police, I’m looking after my health first. And thinking of my colleagues who also cannot afford to get this.

These lockdowns happen because people cannot be trusted to act with common sense.


I"ve had COVID, didn't have a single symptom.

What do you think happens after a lockdown is lifted? Another wave, then another wave. Do you have an exit strategy, or just lockdown for the foreseeable future?
 
Redd
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:41 pm

zkojq wrote:

:banghead: :banghead: When the hospitals are filled up with COVID patients.


Yeah but no. The hospitals aren't filled up and 85% of people who get COVID get no symptoms.I believe that is the accurate number. Next, my grandma died because she didn't have access to medical care because hospital beds are reserved for the COVID patient that aren't filling them.

So honestly, go to hell and stay there with that attitude of yours. People are dying in much greater numbers from other illnesses that aren't being treated.
 
Redd
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:44 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Redd wrote:
SO what do you guys think about Sweden being the only country (or the only one I am aware of) without a second spike in deaths? Something seems to be working there?


They aren't. The Sweden is getting hammered yet again.


https://www.google.com/search?q=sweden+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

Tell me how that is 'hammered'. I's assuming you know how to interpret a simple graph?
 
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c933103
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:45 pm

Redd wrote:
cpd wrote:
Redd wrote:
So, what do you think? I agree with the concept. I think lockdowns aren't the solution.

https://gbdeclaration.org/


Good for you, go out and get yourself infected.

And keep well away from the rest of us. :bomb:

I don’t care about Sweden or what Trump says or anything else from all the woke anti-lockdown thought police, I’m looking after my health first. And thinking of my colleagues who also cannot afford to get this.

These lockdowns happen because people cannot be trusted to act with common sense.


I"ve had COVID, didn't have a single symptom.

What do you think happens after a lockdown is lifted? Another wave, then another wave. Do you have an exit strategy, or just lockdown for the foreseeable future?

You ≠ everybody else.
A lockdown where people can still go grocery shopping is not a lockdown at all.
More targeted approach is more useful.
This virus transmit by surface contact, droplet transmission, and some bit of aerosols. Approaches against the virus should focus on these three aspects ESPECIALLY when case count are low, so they won't surge back to higher level that need lockdown. And also, testing and sampling and contact tracing to discover where infection happened to take pin pointed actions.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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bennett123
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:39 pm

Several points being lost here;

1. There are measures that can reduce the infection rate.

2. By spreading the growth, we can reduce the number infected and the number hospitalised at any given time.

3. The fewer people who get it before a vaccine is available the better.

Agreed allowing people to go grocery shopping is not a full lockdown. However, by limiting the amount of time spent in close proximity it gives less opportunity for infection to spread, particularly when backed by enhanced cleaning, face covering and distancing where possible.

A more targeted approach is clearly preferable, but to quote an old saying, when you are up to your arse in alligators it is easy to forget that the original intention was to drain the swamp..
 
cpd
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:52 pm

Redd wrote:
cpd wrote:
Redd wrote:
So, what do you think? I agree with the concept. I think lockdowns aren't the solution.

https://gbdeclaration.org/


Good for you, go out and get yourself infected.

And keep well away from the rest of us. :bomb:

I don’t care about Sweden or what Trump says or anything else from all the woke anti-lockdown thought police, I’m looking after my health first. And thinking of my colleagues who also cannot afford to get this.

These lockdowns happen because people cannot be trusted to act with common sense.


I"ve had COVID, didn't have a single symptom.

What do you think happens after a lockdown is lifted? Another wave, then another wave. Do you have an exit strategy, or just lockdown for the foreseeable future?


You are lucky, other people aren't so lucky:

https://www.ecaj.org.au/an-australian-d ... xperience/

It wrecked the life of this doctor. He was quite fit before that. You are one example who wasn't greatly affected, but he is one example of someone who can't live a normal life anymore. Cannot drive a car, cannot exercise normally, etc.

We don't have a full lockdown here but a lot of people are sensibly avoiding going out unless they have to. We get things like groceries, the essentials but we aren't going to restaurants or bars, there is no point. We also aren't having "covid is awesome super-spreader" parties. We've also mostly gone into working from home where it is possible and surprise surprise, companies have found that productivity is just as good or even improved. People have more time to spend with their families (better quality of life) and companies are realising they don't need to spend huge amounts of money on expensive offices anymore, they can downsize and shift this burden onto employees. I know a lot of people who are happy working from home, they don't have 3 hours per day spent commuting to and from work. It's 3 hours they can spend going for a walk with the dog, riding a bicycle with their kids, etc.

My country has dealt with the virus pretty effectively so far. We implemented immediate and strict lockdowns and kept them in place for a long time.

The anti-lockdown campaigners I've seen appear to miraculously care so greatly about mental health issues these days, yet previously they scoffed at mental health issues with the usual quips about people suffering from mental health problems being snowflakes, treehuggers, socialists, etc. Seems all too convenient.
 
VSMUT
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:36 am

Redd wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Redd wrote:
SO what do you guys think about Sweden being the only country (or the only one I am aware of) without a second spike in deaths? Something seems to be working there?


They aren't. The Sweden is getting hammered yet again.


https://www.google.com/search?q=sweden+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

Tell me how that is 'hammered'. I's assuming you know how to interpret a simple graph?


Deaths lag behind cases by several weeks, in particular when hospitals are out of capacity. The relevant graph is this one:
https://www.google.com/search?channel=t ... den+corona

European COVID-19 deaths exceed 230.000. You really aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?


cpd wrote:
The anti-lockdown campaigners I've seen appear to miraculously care so greatly about mental health issues these days, yet previously they scoffed at mental health issues with the usual quips about people suffering from mental health problems being snowflakes, treehuggers, socialists, etc. Seems all too convenient.


Great observation.
 
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c933103
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:10 am

bennett123 wrote:
Agreed allowing people to go grocery shopping is not a full lockdown. However, by limiting the amount of time spent in close proximity it gives less opportunity for infection to spread, particularly when backed by enhanced cleaning, face covering and distancing where possible.

A more targeted approach is clearly preferable, but to quote an old saying, when you are up to your arse in alligators it is easy to forget that the original intention was to drain the swamp..

1. That is also a reason why testing and contact tracing is important. If you can identify a path of transmission then you can achieve not just cut down that larticular transmission path, but also identify the risky activity being done and allow authority to take target measure.
2. enhanced cleaning, face covering [with regular cloth masks or sponge masks], and distancing help with surface transmission and droplet transmission but doesn't really help with aerosol transmission.
3. When in close proximity, and unprotected, the virus can be transmitted in seconds.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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Sokes
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:16 am

I wonder how everybody is quite sure about his opinion. I am not at all sure what to think and believe both sides have strong points in their argument.

My mother in law recently died of Covid, kidney and cardiovascular trouble, 79 years old. In the last two years before Corona she was 12 days + 6 weeks sick, the six weeks only caused by diabetis.
It was her time to die anyway. I stayed with her several days. She had no cough or fever and didn't infect any further household member.
So no need to get upset?
In her case yes, but then there are long term damages of people who still have decades to live.

My mother once had a fall on steps. She got back ache decades later. A doctor told her :
" The body does not forget any injuries. "
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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zkojq
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:08 pm

Redd wrote:
zkojq wrote:

:banghead: :banghead: When the hospitals are filled up with COVID patients.


Yeah but no. The hospitals aren't filled up and 85% of people who get COVID get no symptoms.I believe that is the accurate number. Next, my grandma died because she didn't have access to medical care because hospital beds are reserved for the COVID patient that aren't filling them.

So honestly, go to hell and stay there with that attitude of yours. People are dying in much greater numbers from other illnesses that aren't being treated.


The UK's hospitals get to ~95% capacity most winters due to the seasonal flu.

Covid: 'We are hanging by a thread' - hospital doctor

If you want to know why England is going into lockdown, Liverpool's intensive care units may help give you the answer. They are struggling to cope.

"We are hanging by a thread," says Dr Oliver Zuzan, divisional medical director at the Royal Liverpool Hospital. He is speaking to me in a six-bed intensive care unit, reserved for non-Covid patients. At least here there's no requirement for the staff to spend their shifts in full PPE, with tight-fitting masks that dig into their faces. Here it's just an apron, gloves and surgical mask.

The intensive care unit has had to be split into Covid and non-Covid areas. In the side rooms, patients wait for a diagnosis that will determine whether they are cared for in a red zone (Covid) or green zone (non-Covid). "People are right to say that these are pressures that occur every winter, but this time it's just a lot worse. This is winter plus, plus, plus," says Dr Zuzan. As such, it is a glimpse of what hospitals across England could look like if cases of coronavirus continue to rise unchecked - a scenario the new lockdown is designed to prevent. Liverpool University Hospitals Trust, which includes Royal Liverpool and three other hospitals, has 463 Covid in-patients, 73 more than the peak of 390 in early April.

A key difference between the spring and now is the additional medical demands. Back then, there was little demand for intensive care from non-Covid patients. Many people with urgent conditions stayed away. Half the trust's beds were empty. Now they are about 95% full.

Like other hospitals, there are plans to expand capacity to look after critically ill patients. But that depends on having enough staff. Sickness levels are about three times normal levels. Having dealt with the first wave, and then spent the summer trying to catch up with surgery that was postponed, the medical teams are looking at months of sustained pressure.

I spend most of the morning in the ICU red zone. My first impression is how different this is to Newcastle's Royal Victoria Infirmary which I visited the week before. There, the unit was flooded with natural light. It was not that busy, and several patients were able to chat to me.

In Liverpool, the only ICU patient who appears well enough to talk is Douglas Thom, a former bus driver and crane operator. The 73-year-old is sitting up in bed, his head covered with a domed plastic hood that enables oxygen to flow into his lungs under pressure. It looks like something out of science fiction, but he is stoical. "It's a bit claustrophobic but it's doing the job, so that's all that matters to me." Douglas's wife tested positive at the same time as him but recovered. He takes a dim view of those who dismiss coronavirus. "All these people who go around saying it's a hoax or a bad cold, they need to get their heads straight because I have never ever been so ill in all my born days. "This is an absolute crippler."

The trust is not helped by its ageing infrastructure. The Royal was built in the '60s and is crumbling. Its replacement is three years overdue and not scheduled to open for two years. The Royal and Aintree University hospitals have about 40 operating theatres. Half are standing idle since almost all non-urgent surgery has been cancelled. Staff absence and the need to redeploy nurses from surgery to critical care meant the trust had no alternative.

Even more worryingly, nine urgent cancer operations have been cancelled in the past month. "It's devastating for the patient," says Dr Tristan Cope, the trust's medical director, "if they've come into a hospital, expecting to have a potentially life-saving cancer operation and that morning are told it can't go ahead."

Dr Cope is speaking in one of the moth-balled operating theatres. We are either side of the operating table. He is worried about the coming weeks. "We're very close to the limits of what Liverpool hospitals can cope with in terms of the number of patients, particularly - without having to postpone more of those urgent surgical procedures."

He assures me the cancelled cancer operations are being quickly rescheduled, but adds that whether they take place soon depends on beds being available. It is worth stressing, though, that most cancer treatment is unaffected by coronavirus. I was shown around a brand new cancer centre, near the Royal.


www.bbc.com/news/health-54777741

So, with the system is under enormous strain as it thanks to COVID, how will opening up fully help?

Redd wrote:
People are dying in much greater numbers from other illnesses that aren't being treated.


Far greater numbers? According to who? According to the Barrington Declaration which was written by a liberterian economic think tank and has such medical heavyweights as signatories including Dr Harold Shipman, Mr Banana Rama, Dr Johnny Fartpants, Professor Notaf Uckingclue, Professor Cominic Dummings?

Can I ask if you would let Dr Harold Shipman or Professor Notaf Uckingclue treat your grandmother?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... anas-covid

Also, you never answered my question of what happens when half the medical staff of a hospital are on forced leave due to COVID itself, COVID symptoms or isolation? You can pretend that this virus is no big deal all you like, but in reality these things are actually quite complicated.

cpd wrote:
The anti-lockdown campaigners I've seen appear to miraculously care so greatly about mental health issues these days, yet previously they scoffed at mental health issues with the usual quips about people suffering from mental health problems being snowflakes, treehuggers, socialists, etc. Seems all too convenient.

:checkmark:
First to fly the 787-9
 
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DocLightning
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:55 pm

The declaration is nonsense dressed up in elite clothing. OK, so one of them is a physician from Stanford. So am I (I don't work for Stanford but I went there). So does that mean that you should listen to whatever I say without question?

I agree that the psychological impacts of lockdowns and long-term distancing are a real problem. That's why I strongly oppose those who speak about an EUA for a vaccine as something that should be avoided.

That said, no disease has ever been eliminated from the global population by allowing natural infection. For this particular virus, it would appear that re-infection is possible and we don't know whether those reinfections are transmissible. Moreover, this virus can and does kill young people at a far higher rate than the four endemic human coronaviruses do.

Moreover, the Great Barrington Declaration (which was denounced by the town of Great Barrington, BTW) has empirical evidence standing in opposition to it. Sweden did almost exactly what these authors purport to do and it didn't work. However, lockdowns do work. The lockdowns in Europe reduced circulation enough that people were able to go back to their lives for a few months. Now, another lockdown will be necessary. In New Zealand, a lockdown eradicated the virus from the country. They are going to sports games and restaurants and gyms there and carrying on their lives without masks.

We're all going to need to be patient and wait a few months for the first vaccine data to be released. At that time, if the data are promising, I will wholeheartedly back an EUA to get the vaccine out into the population to begin to slow the spread of the virus.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
MoonC
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Re: The Great Barrington Declaration

Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:21 pm

I think I would give this b.s. funded by a libertarian think tank a HARD pass.

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/10/09/climate-science-denial-network-behind-great-barrington-declaration/

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