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User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 2288
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:14 am

Braybuddy wrote:
I love the way the Russians made a big deal of being the first to develop a vaccine, even though it wasn't thoroughly tested. For some reason, they seemed reluctant to roll it out. Now, with news that the UK is to start vaccinating next week, they started yesterday:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/


Let me provide a link directly to the article:

Moscow Starts Inoculating Vulnerable Workers Against Coronavirus
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:38 am

Braybuddy wrote:
I love the way the Russians made a big deal of being the first to develop a vaccine, even though it wasn't thoroughly tested. For some reason, they seemed reluctant to roll it out. Now, with news that the UK is to start vaccinating next week, they started yesterday:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/


And the western vaccines have been tested thoroughly? If I recall well, Pfizer's vaccine has only been put in 20.000 or so people, many of whom are sheltering or working from home.

Also, who's to say that the data is not manipulated and the placebo group were not wilfully injected with Covid?
Not possible? People have been caught doing much worse for much less.
We live in times where the words coming out of the US president are just as unreliable as the Russian president's if not more so. Big European and American corporations are being caught red handed in mass fraud schemes.B737 Max cover-up, Dieselgate, etc...

And then these pharma CEO's are caught selling stock in their own companies the day they announce vaccine numbers too good to be true.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/new ... 1029798146

As if they didnt believe in their own vaccine.
 
art
Posts: 4141
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:07 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:


And then these pharma CEO's are caught selling stock in their own companies the day they announce vaccine numbers too good to be true.


Why do you say the numbers are too good to be true when there are other vaccines that are similarly effective at generating immunisation?

eg

Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps.

http://www.cdc.gov › vaccines › vpd › mmr › public

It's been shown that 9 out of 10 children vaccinated with a single dose will develop immunity against chickenpox.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinati ... x-vaccine/
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:57 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
And then these pharma CEO's are caught selling stock in their own companies the day they announce vaccine numbers too good to be true.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/new ... 1029798146

As if they didnt believe in their own vaccine.


From your link:
The executive sold $5.6 million worth of shares due to "personal financial planning" and as part of a predetermined plan that he authorized in August, Pfizer told Reuters.


so probably slightly less damning than you make it out to be.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22204
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:18 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
-Administering the vaccine to an infected person at the wrong moment may induce immune system overdrive, making matters worse. Cytokine storms and others. These are a major factor in Covid deaths. Too soon for studies about this but I think that we will see some of this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm


Unless you have formal training in immunology, please stop making ridiculous assertions like this. The reasons we do not vaccinate the very sick is because 1) very sick people may not mount a good response against the vaccine and 2) any sudden decompensation after the vaccine could appear to be a result of the vaccine, even though it wouldn't be.

For the non-replicating candidates approaching EUA or licensure, there is no realistic situation in which a vaccine of this type triggers a Systemic Inflammatory Response Syndrome. We do not know exactly what triggers the hyperinflammatory state (we know it's a combination of factors and events), but it is very obviously not Spike protein alone.

As for your absurd conspiracy theories about Pfizer manipulating data or injecting people with SARS-CoV-2, I choose not to respond to such nonsense. The protocols are published and are free to view to the general public.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:30 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
-Administering the vaccine to an infected person at the wrong moment may induce immune system overdrive, making matters worse. Cytokine storms and others. These are a major factor in Covid deaths. Too soon for studies about this but I think that we will see some of this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm


Unless you have formal training in immunology, please stop making ridiculous assertions like this. The reasons we do not vaccinate the very sick is because 1) very sick people may not mount a good response against the vaccine and 2) any sudden decompensation after the vaccine could appear to be a result of the vaccine, even though it wouldn't be.

For the non-replicating candidates approaching EUA or licensure, there is no realistic situation in which a vaccine of this type triggers a Systemic Inflammatory Response Syndrome. We do not know exactly what triggers the hyperinflammatory state (we know it's a combination of factors and events), but it is very obviously not Spike protein alone.

As for your absurd conspiracy theories about Pfizer manipulating data or injecting people with SARS-CoV-2, I choose not to respond to such nonsense. The protocols are published and are free to view to the general public.


The data is not available for anyone to scrutinise. It has only been submitted to regulatory authorities and has not been peer reviewed by anyone.

Furthermore, what guarantees that the data reflects the reality?
What guarantees that the data is not skewed by profiling or manipulation in the tests?

I'm not the only one to ask these questions:

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/11/26/pe ... full-data/

I don't need to lecture you that your approach should be based on science.
In your posts I don't see science, only blind trust. In a corrupt government that is trying to bend an election result in its favor, let alone vaccine trials. In Wall Street quoted big pharma.

I don't know how it's going to work out.
That's why I use wording like "may" or "could".
But you seem pretty sure that these vaccines are all good, based on press releases.

Imo doctors should not be biased when they seek informed consent. They should be well informed and scientific.

I also think that doctors should refrain from using their title to impose opinions, especially when there is no way that they have all the facts, or to dismiss questions as pure speculation or conspiracy theories.

We'll see how your comments will age and hope for your sake that you are right and don't end up looking like a fool.
 
art
Posts: 4141
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:59 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
In your posts I don't see science, only blind trust. In a corrupt government that is trying to bend an election result in its favor


I think your eyes need testing.

But I do agree with your comments about the Trump administration,
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:05 pm

Some excerpts from the above linked page:


Let’s put this in perspective. First, a relative risk reduction is being reported, not absolute risk reduction, which appears to be less than 1%. Second, these results refer to the trials’ primary endpoint of covid-19 of essentially any severity, and importantly not the vaccine’s ability to save lives, nor the ability to prevent infection, nor the efficacy in important subgroups (e.g. frail elderly). Those still remain unknown. Third, these results reflect a time point relatively soon after vaccination, and we know nothing about vaccine performance at 3, 6, or 12 months, so cannot compare these efficacy numbers against other vaccines like influenza vaccines (which are judged over a season). Fourth, children, adolescents, and immunocompromised individuals were largely excluded from the trials, so we still lack any data on these important populations.




I previously argued that the trials are studying the wrong endpoint, and for an urgent need to correct course and study more important endpoints like prevention of severe disease and transmission in high risk people. Yet, despite the existence of regulatory mechanisms for ensuring vaccine access while keeping the authorization bar high (which would allow placebo-controlled trials to continue long enough to answer the important question), it’s hard to avoid the impression that sponsors are claiming victory and wrapping up their trials (Pfizer has already sent trial participants a letter discussing “crossing over” from placebo to vaccine), and the FDA will now be under enormous pressure to rapidly authorize the vaccines.



This assumes all people with symptoms would be tested, as one might expect would be the case. However the trial protocols for Moderna and Pfizer’s studies contain explicit language instructing investigators to use their clinical judgment to decide whether to refer people for testing. Moderna puts it this way:

“It is important to note that some of the symptoms of COVID-19 overlap with solicited systemic ARs that are expected after vaccination with mRNA-1273 (eg, myalgia, headache, fever, and chills). During the first 7 days after vaccination, when these solicited ARs are common, Investigators should use their clinical judgement to decide if an NP swab should be collected.”


In a proper trial, all cases of covid-19 should have been recorded, no matter which arm of the trial the case occurred in. (In epidemiology terms, there should be no ascertainment bias, or differential measurement error). It’s even become common sense in the Covid era: “test, test, test.” But if referrals for testing were not provided to all individuals with symptoms of covid-19—for example because an assumption was made that the symptoms were due to side-effects of the vaccine—cases could go uncounted.


https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/11/26/pe ... full-data/
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3369
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:12 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
In your posts I don't see science, only blind trust. In a corrupt government that is trying to bend an election result in its favor, let alone vaccine trials. In Wall Street quoted big pharma.

Wait a second...in one breath you decry the fact that the trials aren't run by the government but independentresearch bodies, but in another suddenly it's a corrupt government bending the results? Which is it? Talk about moving the goal posts to fit your narrative...
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1897
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:36 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
In your posts I don't see science, only blind trust. In a corrupt government that is trying to bend an election result in its favor, let alone vaccine trials. In Wall Street quoted big pharma.

Wait a second...in one breath you decry the fact that the trials aren't run by the government but independentresearch bodies, but in another suddenly it's a corrupt government bending the results? Which is it? Talk about moving the goal posts to fit your narrative...

You are arguing with someone who postulated that phizer may have injected the placebo group with Covid.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:55 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
In your posts I don't see science, only blind trust. In a corrupt government that is trying to bend an election result in its favor, let alone vaccine trials. In Wall Street quoted big pharma.

Wait a second...in one breath you decry the fact that the trials aren't run by the government but independentresearch bodies, but in another suddenly it's a corrupt government bending the results? Which is it? Talk about moving the goal posts to fit your narrative...



The two are not mutually exclusive.
The US government is not running the trials despite that they should be. This may be due to simple incompetence or for plausible deniability once issues arise.
As for the vaccine results, the US government may be pressuring the big pharma to publish numbers too good to be true. If they are not ashamed to openly ask the courts to bend election results, they're not going to be shy about making a call to the CEO's of big pharma.
"Remember the billions that we gave you as part of warp speed? Make sure it looks like you have something to show for it, even if you don't."

If you start with the presumption that the numbers are not as good as published, this makes sense.

If the vaccine is approved by the FDA before inauguration day, I wouldn't be shocked if Trump pressures them to put his name on the vaccine too.
The Trump vaccine. Kind of has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?
 
WIederling
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:02 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The Trump vaccine. Kind of has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?


Could someone actually turn mad just from his given name? TRUMP
Murphy is an optimist
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1897
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:56 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The US government is not running the trials despite that they should be. This may be due to simple incompetence or for plausible deniability once issues arise.

The US government is not running that trials because that isn't generally what they do. The drug companies almost always run the trials regulated by the government.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
"Remember the billions that we gave you as part of warp speed? Make sure it looks like you have something to show for it, even if you don't."
Except the US government did not give money to Pfizer for development of it's vaccine

Waterbomber2 wrote:
If you start with the presumption that the numbers are not as good as published, this makes sense.
If you just choose to believe whatever you want, then yes, any crazy theory can make sense.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1897
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:57 pm

WIederling wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
The Trump vaccine. Kind of has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?


Could someone actually turn mad just from his given name? TRUMP

Mad Trump disease? One could argue a significant portion of the population already is afflicted with this.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:42 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
In your posts I don't see science, only blind trust. In a corrupt government that is trying to bend an election result in its favor, let alone vaccine trials. In Wall Street quoted big pharma.

Wait a second...in one breath you decry the fact that the trials aren't run by the government but independentresearch bodies, but in another suddenly it's a corrupt government bending the results? Which is it? Talk about moving the goal posts to fit your narrative...



The two are not mutually exclusive.

More goal post moving.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The US government is not running the trials despite that they should be.

Only in your world. There are no more compelling reasons for governments to be running trials than there are that they should not. They are not "self-certifying" as you assert however.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
As for the vaccine results, the US government may be pressuring the big pharma to publish numbers too good to be true.

Sure they may be doing so, and the alien god Zenu may also have teleported the miracle vaccine to earth for us to use. But neither are likely for a host of reasons (BioNTtech is German first of all, Pfizer has not taken money from the OWS program, and the probability of the Trump administration suddenly becoming competent enough to pull off your conspiracy despite it being the leaky ship it has been with whistleblower after whistleblower stepping forward for this that and the other). There isn't anything wrong with healthy skepticism, but when your skepticism is based on conspiracies and clearly scant knowledge of biology and immunology, don't expect people to take it seriously.
 
meecrob
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:30 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I also think that doctors should refrain from using their title to impose opinions, especially when there is no way that they have all the facts, or to dismiss questions as pure speculation or conspiracy theories.


Issac Newton clearly did not have all the facts. I mean that moron didn't even figure out relativity. Yet people don't say "I think physicists should stop referencing Newtonian Physics to impose their opinions of celestial motion."

And who exactly do you propose we get our medical information from if not doctors?
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:46 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Wait a second...in one breath you decry the fact that the trials aren't run by the government but independentresearch bodies, but in another suddenly it's a corrupt government bending the results? Which is it? Talk about moving the goal posts to fit your narrative...



The two are not mutually exclusive.

More goal post moving.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The US government is not running the trials despite that they should be.

Only in your world. There are no more compelling reasons for governments to be running trials than there are that they should not. They are not "self-certifying" as you assert however.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
As for the vaccine results, the US government may be pressuring the big pharma to publish numbers too good to be true.

Sure they may be doing so, and the alien god Zenu may also have teleported the miracle vaccine to earth for us to use. But neither are likely for a host of reasons (BioNTtech is German first of all, Pfizer has not taken money from the OWS program, and the probability of the Trump administration suddenly becoming competent enough to pull off your conspiracy despite it being the leaky ship it has been with whistleblower after whistleblower stepping forward for this that and the other). There isn't anything wrong with healthy skepticism, but when your skepticism is based on conspiracies and clearly scant knowledge of biology and immunology, don't expect people to take it seriously.



Pfizer did not take anything from the US government presumably, but Germany did give their partner a load of money.
https://www.reuters.com/article/health- ... SKBN2661KP

Germany is as fishy as the US. It's barely a democracy with an indirectly elected chancellor serving for as long as in authoritarian regimes while corporations are running fraud over fraud to wage economic warfare under their watch.
Germany is also using Covid to subsidise its companies and give them an edge in competitivity against their foreign competitors. We have seen this through the Lufthansa saga already.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... IP_20_2180


Back to the vaccine.
We just don't know. But it's just fishy.
It takes years of trial and error to create a vaccine and even more years to improve its effectiveness.
People here are talking about the measles vaccines as if it was developed over 6 months and several companies had it right from the first attempt.
That's not what happened. In fact, it took nearly half a century between isolating the measle virus to eradicating the virus in the US.
Vaccine development
In 1954, John F. Enders and Dr. Thomas C. Peebles collected blood samples from several ill students during a measles outbreak in Boston, Massachusetts. They wanted to isolate the measles virus in the student’s blood and create a measles vaccine. They succeeded in isolating measles in 13-year-old David Edmonston’s blood.

In 1963, John Enders and colleagues transformed their Edmonston-B strain of measles virus into a vaccine and licensed it in the United States. In 1968, an improved and even weaker measles vaccine, developed by Maurice Hilleman and colleagues, began to be distributed. This vaccine, called the Edmonston-Enders (formerly “Moraten”) strain has been the only measles vaccine used in the United States since 1968. Measles vaccine is usually combined with mumps and rubella (MMR), or combined with mumps, rubella and varicella (MMRV). Learn more about measles vaccine.

Measles elimination
In 1978, CDC set a goal to eliminate measles from the United States by 1982. Although this goal was not met, widespread use of measles vaccine drastically reduced the disease rates. By 1981, the number of reported measles cases was 80% less compared with the previous year. However, a 1989 measles outbreaks among vaccinated school-aged children prompted the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), and the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) to recommend a second dose of MMR vaccine for all children. Following widespread implementation of this recommendation and improvements in first-dose MMR vaccine coverage, reported measles cases declined even more.

Measles was declared eliminated (absence of continuous disease transmission for greater than 12 months) from the United States in 2000. This was thanks to a highly effective vaccination program in the United States, as well as better measles control in the Americas region. For more information, see Frequently Asked Questions about Measles in the U.S
.

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/histo ... istributed.

Remember this saying: If it seems too good to be true, it usually is.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:27 pm

One of the good things about this site is that I am able to set to "ignore" those posters that are obviously ill-educated about topics yet persist to pretend as if they are knowledgeable. Using volume to press a point versus knowledge. While they only expound pablum and conjecture with no actual, FACTUAL basis. Just attempting to sow doubt about the current progress of an effective vaccine in this case.

I look forward to the rollout of the vaccine in the coming days, not that I am anywhere near the front-line to receive said vaccine. And I also look forward to the informative posts from the medically oriented members of A.net on their real experiences with getting the vaccine and its effects on them and those around them that also receive it. I have strong faith in the countless hours and years of education, training and practice in their fields of expertise that guides them and helps them provide us with sound and reliable information.

This is how I approach this topic and the vaccine and the information provided. Others of course may do things differently, with less information and more dubious sources or thinking.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
bgm
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:26 am

Tugger wrote:
One of the good things about this site is that I am able to set to "ignore" those posters that are obviously ill-educated about topics yet persist to pretend as if they are knowledgeable. Using volume to press a point versus knowledge. While they only expound pablum and conjecture with no actual, FACTUAL basis. Just attempting to sow doubt about the current progress of an effective vaccine in this case.

I look forward to the rollout of the vaccine in the coming days, not that I am anywhere near the front-line to receive said vaccine. And I also look forward to the informative posts from the medically oriented members of A.net on their real experiences with getting the vaccine and its effects on them and those around them that also receive it. I have strong faith in the countless hours and years of education, training and practice in their fields of expertise that guides them and helps them provide us with sound and reliable information.

This is how I approach this topic and the vaccine and the information provided. Others of course may do things differently, with less information and more dubious sources or thinking.

Tugg


I am completely on the same page. Couldn't have put it better myself. :smile:
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:30 am

I think the good thing about a vaccine is that we could see a concrete effect on mortality rather quickly.

The most vulnerable among us will be inoculated first, and since this is where most of the mortality lies, the attenuating effect of the vaccine should manifest itself pretty soon after mass vaccination starts.

If anything, there will be diminishing returns when the vaccination campaign moves on to younger tranches of the population.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
MoonC
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:49 am

Administration of the BioNTech vaccine outside of clinical trials is starting in the U.K.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:16 am

Pfizer and Moderna together can only supply enough vaccine for 100 Million Americans by mid-2021.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahrosenb ... 5e91c32c2d

In other words, even if the vaccines work with high effectiveness, in 7-8 months, there will still not be enough vaccine volume produced to vaccinate half of Americans.
In addition, by the time half are vaccinated, they may have to start to be vaccinated all over again as effectiveness starts to wane..
So how long until everyone can be vaccinated? 1 year? 2 years?

In the meanwhile, our economies crumble and crumble and crumble.
If we continue like this, we are going to have mass depression. This has to be ended in 2-3 months with tight lockdowns, not in 1 year, 2 years with a vaccine that may work.

The real pandemic might be idiocy.
 
GDB
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:30 am

Back to the real world, in the UK this morning, the first vaccine was administered in the world, outside of course of the clinical trials.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55227325
 
art
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:16 am

Francoflier wrote:
I think the good thing about a vaccine is that we could see a concrete effect on mortality rather quickly.


Definitely the case in the UK. Around 1% of the population of the UK live in care homes but have suffered about 30% of the fatalities. Once vaccines come on stream that are not as demanding in storage and handling logistics as the Pfizer vaccine, we can administer it in all care homes.
 
art
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:45 am

For me William Shakespeare comes first in the world as a playwright. Now, after a 400 year wait, William Shakespeare has got another first - first man in the world to be vaccinated against COVID-19 as part of a mass vaccination programme. :smile:
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 432
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:24 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Pfizer and Moderna together can only supply enough vaccine for 100 Million Americans by mid-2021.



Well from what I've seen nearly half of American's take no preventative action, and a portion of those are pure Trumpists so don't believe the virus exists anyway, so will probably refuse to take it.

So maybe that makes things a abit easier because you'll have less people who will take it :-)

In the US right now it's completely out of control that's clear. So some sort of action (aside from the start of vaccinations) in the next few months will be needed. Probably a combination of some sort of harder lockdown. Again, the question is whether people will follow it..or scream about some ammendment rights, how Trump won and start wonder around towns protesting, armed. Then it gets nasty. Very difficult situation for Biden to manage actually.

In the rest of the civilised world, plans are in place to vaccinate in an order. With those under 40 unlikely to get it until Spring. Children unlikely to get it since so few catch it. So then you get the most vunerable covered so there should be a lighter lockdown (like what we had in the summer) more in place. I'm sure the other vaccines coming online will help and production will ramp up on those.
 
GDB
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:02 pm

art wrote:
For me William Shakespeare comes first in the world as a playwright. Now, after a 400 year wait, William Shakespeare has got another first - first man in the world to be vaccinated against COVID-19 as part of a mass vaccination programme. :smile:


And he is also from the same part of the country as his namesake!
 
art
Posts: 4141
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:08 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Pfizer and Moderna together can only supply enough vaccine for 100 Million Americans by mid-2021.

Well from what I've seen nearly half of American's take no preventative action, and a portion of those are pure Trumpists so don't believe the virus exists anyway, so will probably refuse to take it.


In a sense there will be a group receiving a vaccine and a control group receiving a placebo (nothing). I wonder how long it will be before the control group start noticing the disparity in infection level between the vaccinated and themselves. If they do realise that their behaviour (high infection risk behaviour without vaccination protection) results in higher infection levels, will they change their minds about declining vaccination?

I'm a bit surprised to hear of Trump fans believing the virus does not exist. Trump himself acknowledged that he had the virus when he was ill.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:43 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Pfizer and Moderna together can only supply enough vaccine for 100 Million Americans by mid-2021.



Well from what I've seen nearly half of American's take no preventative action, and a portion of those are pure Trumpists so don't believe the virus exists anyway, so will probably refuse to take it.

So maybe that makes things a abit easier because you'll have less people who will take it :-).


:checkmark:
The US could have just ordered more. The EU secured 300 million doses less than a month ago after all. Just someone was too busy or didn´t care enough.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1897
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:13 pm

art wrote:
For me William Shakespeare comes first in the world as a playwright. Now, after a 400 year wait, William Shakespeare has got another first - first man in the world to be vaccinated against COVID-19 as part of a mass vaccination programme. :smile:

This says he was the second.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/08/europe/u ... index.html
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13515
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:54 pm

Looks like they are off and rolling. Operation "Warp Speed" in the US is so mismanaged, no one really knows what is going on.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/0 ... der-443574
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8603
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:16 pm

Americans report widespread usage of masks:

“ Similarly, adults ages 65 and older (62%) along with Democrats (65%) are more likely to say they are bothered a lot when people around them do not wear masks in public.

Majorities across all major demographic groups say they are not too or not at all bothered by stores and businesses requiring a face-covering. Republicans are relatively more likely to say they are bothered by this than Democrats. Still, just 36% of Republicans are bothered a lot or some by such requirements, compared with 64% who say the requirements don’t bother them much or at all.

Large shares of Americans across groups report wearing a mask when out in public. Nearly nine-in-ten (87%) adults say they have worn a mask or face covering all or most of the time when in stores and businesses over the past month, including 91% of Democrats and 81% of Republicans. While a slightly larger majority of Democrats than Republicans reports wearing a mask in stores, the partisan gap is much smaller than it was in June (23 points).”

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/science/202 ... -increases

Does not surprise me one bit. Around where I live, in the USA, mask usage is universal despite no mandates.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:39 pm

I do believe I am seeing more goal post moving! Moving from a failed argument on vaccine efficacy and now onto vaccine availability! How interesting. :scratchchin:

While a real issue, due to both need on the receiving end and supply of critical components on the production end, the idea that there won't be enough completely ignores the reality that there are multiple vaccines coming online in the coming months, each with their own benefits, supply chains and handling needs. And that each manufacturer is working hard (with the cooperation of governments around the world) to address supply chain issues, from production to the "shot in the arm", to make sure there is enough in the end.

The rollout will take some time, the process is just getting started. There will be snafus and a couple failures (like batches that get too warm and can't be used etc.), there may even be.... get ready for it, it's horrible... some people that have apparent "bad reactions" to the vaccine which may halt the further use of the vaccine while such things are looked into. This is the real world after all. So the whole process will take some patience and skilled expertise by committed teams of people working hard to make sure COVID-19 stops being the global threat it currently is. This is not easy but is not not impossible nor is the sky falling. This is medicine. And we humans have been ridiculously successful in developing the medical sciences.

It looks like the FDA is good with the emergency approval of the vaccines for public use:

The Food and Drug Administration on Tuesday released an analysis of Pfizer and BioNTech’s COVID-19 vaccine in which it found the vaccine “met the prescribed success criteria” and showed “no specific safety concerns identified that would preclude issuance of” an emergency-use authorization.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/fda ... y-weekend/

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3369
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:25 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
Well from what I've seen nearly half of American's take no preventative action, and a portion of those are pure Trumpists so don't believe the virus exists anyway, so will probably refuse to take it.

So maybe that makes things a abit easier because you'll have less people who will take it :-)

Perhaps you should get your eyes checked? Assuming you're in Europe, clearly the above couldn't really be the case when there are several European countries (in the rest of the civilized world as you called it, right?) with similar or worse infections or deaths per million numbers compared to the US, right in your own back yard.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:33 pm

Tugger wrote:
I do believe I am seeing more goal post moving! Moving from a failed argument on vaccine efficacy and now onto vaccine availability! How interesting. :scratchchin:

While a real issue, due to both need on the receiving end and supply of critical components on the production end, the idea that there won't be enough completely ignores the reality that there are multiple vaccines coming online in the coming months, each with their own benefits, supply chains and handling needs. And that each manufacturer is working hard (with the cooperation of governments around the world) to address supply chain issues, from production to the "shot in the arm", to make sure there is enough in the end.

The rollout will take some time, the process is just getting started. There will be snafus and a couple failures (like batches that get too warm and can't be used etc.), there may even be.... get ready for it, it's horrible... some people that have apparent "bad reactions" to the vaccine which may halt the further use of the vaccine while such things are looked into. This is the real world after all. So the whole process will take some patience and skilled expertise by committed teams of people working hard to make sure COVID-19 stops being the global threat it currently is. This is not easy but is not not impossible nor is the sky falling. This is medicine. And we humans have been ridiculously successful in developing the medical sciences.

It looks like the FDA is good with the emergency approval of the vaccines for public use:

The Food and Drug Administration on Tuesday released an analysis of Pfizer and BioNTech’s COVID-19 vaccine in which it found the vaccine “met the prescribed success criteria” and showed “no specific safety concerns identified that would preclude issuance of” an emergency-use authorization.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/fda ... y-weekend/

Tugg


I recall writing that all borders should be shut and all flights grounded in February 2020.
I was met with skepticism and answers like "Covid knows no borders", "The flu kills more people" etc...
If I remember well, you were one of them.

8000 people are dying worldwide every day now, so your arguments mean nothing to me.
For all we know, you could be a troll hired by Chinese or Russian governments, waging economic warfare on the West through opinion-manipulation, destroying our economies by ensuring they stay suppressed for as long as possible.

We need to lockdown tight to zero and reopen asap, not wait for potential miracles.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3369
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:07 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:


The two are not mutually exclusive.

More goal post moving.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The US government is not running the trials despite that they should be.

Only in your world. There are no more compelling reasons for governments to be running trials than there are that they should not. They are not "self-certifying" as you assert however.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
As for the vaccine results, the US government may be pressuring the big pharma to publish numbers too good to be true.

Sure they may be doing so, and the alien god Zenu may also have teleported the miracle vaccine to earth for us to use. But neither are likely for a host of reasons (BioNTtech is German first of all, Pfizer has not taken money from the OWS program, and the probability of the Trump administration suddenly becoming competent enough to pull off your conspiracy despite it being the leaky ship it has been with whistleblower after whistleblower stepping forward for this that and the other). There isn't anything wrong with healthy skepticism, but when your skepticism is based on conspiracies and clearly scant knowledge of biology and immunology, don't expect people to take it seriously.



Pfizer did not take anything from the US government presumably, but Germany did give their partner a load of money.
https://www.reuters.com/article/health- ... SKBN2661KP

Germany is as fishy as the US. It's barely a democracy with an indirectly elected chancellor serving for as long as in authoritarian regimes while corporations are running fraud over fraud to wage economic warfare under their watch.
Germany is also using Covid to subsidise its companies and give them an edge in competitivity against their foreign competitors. We have seen this through the Lufthansa saga already.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... IP_20_2180

Oh no, not your weird anti-German conspiracy antics again? :roll: Just like you said they were lying about their covid numbers, without any evidence? What an imagination you have.


Waterbomber2 wrote:
Back to the vaccine.
We just don't know. But it's just fishy.

You don't know that, no. We'll soon find out however as career scientists and researchers at regulatory bodies across the globe begin analyzing the data.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
It takes years of trial and error to create a vaccine and even more years to improve its effectiveness.
People here are talking about the measles vaccines as if it was developed over 6 months and several companies had it right from the first attempt.
That's not what happened. In fact, it took nearly half a century between isolating the measle virus to eradicating the virus in the US.

And you're equally neglecting that work on these vaccines have actually been taking place for nearly 20 years since the SARS/MERS outbreaks.
 
art
Posts: 4141
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:17 pm

The company has reported its vaccine to be 95 percent effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/fda ... y-weekend/

That is brilliant, yes. Not testing to see how many in the vaccinated and placeboed groups developed asymptomatic COVID-19 was not so brilliant IMO. Nobody knows what proportion of people in the trial were protected from infection by being vaccinated.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:26 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I recall writing that all borders should be shut and all flights grounded in February 2020.
I was met with skepticism and answers like "Covid knows no borders", "The flu kills more people" etc...
If I remember well, you were one of them.

8000 people are dying worldwide every day now, so your arguments mean nothing to me.
For all we know, you could be a troll hired by Chinese or Russian governments, waging economic warfare on the West through opinion-manipulation, destroying our economies by ensuring they stay suppressed for as long as possible.

We need to lockdown tight to zero and reopen asap, not wait for potential miracles.

Since I was flagged to your reply I will note that you do not remember well. I did not and have not said things like the "who cares" attitude you are implying.

And oh yes, I am everything you mis-state I am. Absolutely. Vive la Repubulik...stan (or whatever I am supposedly supporting and working for)!

Meanwhile, I am still looking forward to the coming vaccines and when available to me, getting one.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:33 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
Well from what I've seen nearly half of American's take no preventative action, and a portion of those are pure Trumpists so don't believe the virus exists anyway, so will probably refuse to take it.

So maybe that makes things a abit easier because you'll have less people who will take it :-)

Perhaps you should get your eyes checked? Assuming you're in Europe, clearly the above couldn't really be the case when there are several European countries (in the rest of the civilized world as you called it, right?) with similar or worse infections or deaths per million numbers compared to the US, right in your own back yard.


In regions of comparable population densities the US seems to really top out.
FlyOverCountry is rather empty. low infection rates there is easy.
(comparable to Schleswig Holstein and especially the region i live in infection rates are rather low.
denser populated south significantly higher in respect to infection rates.
Not sure if one could make a case for differences between catholic, various sects and the run of mild protestant dominated regions.
Mid year some sects really screwed the pooch royally.
First with "lick each other congregation" and then going
longer distance back home and seeding the neighborhood there with Corona.
Then
Belgium has ~~400 souls per sqkm. Germany 230 something.
US on average 35? right?
Murphy is an optimist
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3369
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:55 pm

WIederling wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
Well from what I've seen nearly half of American's take no preventative action, and a portion of those are pure Trumpists so don't believe the virus exists anyway, so will probably refuse to take it.

So maybe that makes things a abit easier because you'll have less people who will take it :-)

Perhaps you should get your eyes checked? Assuming you're in Europe, clearly the above couldn't really be the case when there are several European countries (in the rest of the civilized world as you called it, right?) with similar or worse infections or deaths per million numbers compared to the US, right in your own back yard.


In regions of comparable population densities the US seems to really top out.

Not appreciably. If that's the route you want to examine, some of the most densely populated areas of the US (Connecticut, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Maryland, DC) are still below or not far off from many of the chart-toppers in Europe.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:08 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
If that's the route you want to examine, some of the most densely populated areas of the US (Connecticut, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Maryland, DC) are still below or not far off from many of the chart-toppers in Europe.


New Jersey, 1950 dead per million
Massachusetts, 1597 dead per million
Belgium 1,492
Connecticut, 1440 dead per million
Italy 1,003
Maryland, 802 dead per million
Spain 998

merged top US and top EU countries/states omitted: mini states like Andorra, ...
Murphy is an optimist
 
art
Posts: 4141
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:20 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Perhaps you should get your eyes checked? Assuming you're in Europe, clearly the above couldn't really be the case when there are several European countries (in the rest of the civilized world as you called it, right?) with similar or worse infections or deaths per million numbers compared to the US, right in your own back yard.


In regions of comparable population densities the US seems to really top out.

Not appreciably. If that's the route you want to examine, some of the most densely populated areas of the US (Connecticut, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Maryland, DC) are still below or not far off from many of the chart-toppers in Europe.


Just on a national level, recent figures for the larger European countries are proportionately way below the US.

UK, France, Italy have about 20% of the population of the US. Infections per day are not 20% of the US figures.

Yesterday

US 200,121
UK 14,717
France 3,411
Italy 13,715

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3369
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:46 pm

WIederling wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
If that's the route you want to examine, some of the most densely populated areas of the US (Connecticut, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Maryland, DC) are still below or not far off from many of the chart-toppers in Europe.


New Jersey, 1950 dead per million
Massachusetts, 1597 dead per million
Belgium 1,492
Connecticut, 1440 dead per million
Italy 1,003
Maryland, 802 dead per million
Spain 998

merged top US and top EU countries/states omitted: mini states like Andorra, ...

And layering on infection rates.

New Jersey, 1950 dead per million; 42,941 cases/million

Massachusetts, 1597 dead per million; 37,624 cases/million

Belgium 1,492; 51,036 cases/million

Connecticut, 1440 dead per million; 38,102 cases/million

Italy 1,003; 29,085 cases/million

Maryland, 802 dead per million; 36,083 cases/million

Spain 998; 36,689 cases/million

art wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

In regions of comparable population densities the US seems to really top out.

Not appreciably. If that's the route you want to examine, some of the most densely populated areas of the US (Connecticut, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Maryland, DC) are still below or not far off from many of the chart-toppers in Europe.


Just on a national level, recent figures for the larger European countries are proportionately way below the US.

UK, France, Italy have about 20% of the population of the US. Infections per day are not 20% of the US figures.

Yesterday

US 200,121
UK 14,717
France 3,411
Italy 13,715

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Which wasn't at all the case just a few weeks ago when the 7-day averages in those countries would have been the equivalent of the US posting case counts of 110K, 250K, and 150K respectively.

The situation is bad in the US, no doubt about it. But there really is not a whole lot of room for condescension and finger wagging from the European contingent about Americans taking no covid precautions when clearly our European counterparts are struggling with this as much as we are.
 
art
Posts: 4141
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:13 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
art wrote:
Just on a national level, recent figures for the larger European countries are proportionately way below the US.

UK, France, Italy have about 20% of the population of the US. Infections per day are not 20% of the US figures.

Yesterday

US 200,121
UK 14,717
France 3,411
Italy 13,715

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Which wasn't at all the case just a few weeks ago when the 7-day averages in those countries would have been the equivalent of the US posting case counts of 110K, 250K, and 150K respectively.

The situation is bad in the US, no doubt about it. But there really is not a whole lot of room for condescension and finger wagging from the European contingent about Americans taking no covid precautions when clearly our European counterparts are struggling with this as much as we are.


The point in your last para taken. All the same, Americans seem to have politicised what is just an unexpected disease to their own detriment. It's a disease, not something that falls into the domain of left, right, liberal, authoritarian thinking.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3369
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:22 pm

art wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
art wrote:
Just on a national level, recent figures for the larger European countries are proportionately way below the US.

UK, France, Italy have about 20% of the population of the US. Infections per day are not 20% of the US figures.

Yesterday

US 200,121
UK 14,717
France 3,411
Italy 13,715

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Which wasn't at all the case just a few weeks ago when the 7-day averages in those countries would have been the equivalent of the US posting case counts of 110K, 250K, and 150K respectively.

The situation is bad in the US, no doubt about it. But there really is not a whole lot of room for condescension and finger wagging from the European contingent about Americans taking no covid precautions when clearly our European counterparts are struggling with this as much as we are.


The point in your last para taken. All the same, Americans seem to have politicised what is just an unexpected disease to their own detriment. It's a disease, not something that falls into the domain of left, right, liberal, authoritarian thinking.

100% agreed. It's an unfortunate situation that probably would not have been the case under better leadership.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8603
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:25 pm

John Hopkins is still reporting lower deaths per capita in the USA than in the UK, Spain and Italy:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Okie
Posts: 4249
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:27 pm

art wrote:
The point in your last para taken. All the same, Americans seem to have politicised what is just an unexpected disease to their own detriment. It's a disease, not something that falls into the domain of left, right, liberal, authoritarian thinking


Not really a problem I was automatically signed up for the Covid-19 vaccine from home. They just mail it to you and you sign a card that it was injected and mail it back that way you don't have to be exposed while waiting in line to get injected :roll:

Okie
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8603
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:29 pm

art wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
art wrote:
Just on a national level, recent figures for the larger European countries are proportionately way below the US.

UK, France, Italy have about 20% of the population of the US. Infections per day are not 20% of the US figures.

Yesterday

US 200,121
UK 14,717
France 3,411
Italy 13,715

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Which wasn't at all the case just a few weeks ago when the 7-day averages in those countries would have been the equivalent of the US posting case counts of 110K, 250K, and 150K respectively.

The situation is bad in the US, no doubt about it. But there really is not a whole lot of room for condescension and finger wagging from the European contingent about Americans taking no covid precautions when clearly our European counterparts are struggling with this as much as we are.


The point in your last para taken. All the same, Americans seem to have politicised what is just an unexpected disease to their own detriment. It's a disease, not something that falls into the domain of left, right, liberal, authoritarian thinking.


Perhaps Europeans have exaggerated the extent this has been politicized in the USA.

If a large percentage of Americans are using masks with little to no gripes about it, perhaps there’s indeed a lot of exaggeration.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3369
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:43 pm

PPVRA wrote:
art wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Which wasn't at all the case just a few weeks ago when the 7-day averages in those countries would have been the equivalent of the US posting case counts of 110K, 250K, and 150K respectively.

The situation is bad in the US, no doubt about it. But there really is not a whole lot of room for condescension and finger wagging from the European contingent about Americans taking no covid precautions when clearly our European counterparts are struggling with this as much as we are.


The point in your last para taken. All the same, Americans seem to have politicised what is just an unexpected disease to their own detriment. It's a disease, not something that falls into the domain of left, right, liberal, authoritarian thinking.


Perhaps Europeans have exaggerated the extent this has been politicized in the USA.

If a large percentage of Americans are using masks with little to no gripes about it, perhaps that is the case indeed.

My observation has been that almost everyone in the US wears them where required...some begrudgingly for sure, but they'll wear them all the same. The contingent of Karens refusing to wear masks at any time and looking to pick a fight over it is relatively small but very vocal obviously. In rural, very provincial areas however (like places where the one gas station in town is the big hang out spot) no masks whatsoever.
 
art
Posts: 4141
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:10 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
art wrote:
For me William Shakespeare comes first in the world as a playwright. Now, after a 400 year wait, William Shakespeare has got another first - first man in the world to be vaccinated against COVID-19 as part of a mass vaccination programme. :smile:

This says he was the second.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/08/europe/u ... index.html


Chose my words there. I said 'man' rather than 'person'. No offence taken.
Last edited by art on Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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