Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1815
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:26 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
That's why weak, elderly people shouldn't really be vaccinated but stay in protective medical care indefinitely. No visitors, no walks, no nothing. Food dispensed via air lock in door.

I hope this is tongue in cheek.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
art
Posts: 3822
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:26 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Here's another one.

CDC, Miami-Dade investigate death of Miami Beach doctor following COVID-19 vaccine

(..)

Pfizer, the manufacturer of the vaccine Michael received Dec. 18, said Michael died of a “highly unusual clinical case of severe thrombocytopenia, a condition that decreases the body’s ability to clot blood and stop internal bleeding.”


https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 37525.html



and another one:


The man had received the first dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine during the afternoon as part of Israel’s mass inoculation program. He later collapsed at home. Paramedics called to the scene worked to resuscitate him as they rushed him to Hadassah Mount Scopus Medical Center where doctors later pronounced his death. Discouraging any link between the shot and the death, the hospital said the man suffered from “chronic, complex and difficult” health conditions, without specifying.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/88-year-o ... ously-ill/

So far not very encouraging as you can see and this is mere weeks after they started.
As inoculations ramp up, this kind of news is going to increase and then I wonder if people here wil be able to stand by their current opinions.

If you look at the post-vaccination side effects, especially the second shots, they are heavy enough to send weak elderly people to heaven.


We will see as time passes. I want to see data, though. If 100,000 people are vaccinated day 1 and 50 die in the following 30 days, I want to know how many of 100,000 unvaccinated comparable people died in the following 30 days.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1304
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:36 pm

The whole argument is stupid anyway.

4000 Americans died of covid yesterday alone. But stop the presses! 3 people globally MAY have died from the vaccine!

I got sidetracked while typing. and it took me about 90 seconds to write this post. In that time, 3 Americans died of covid. But yes, please...stop the vaccines before this onslaught on death!
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3937
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:02 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
That's why weak, elderly people shouldn't really be vaccinated but stay in protective medical care indefinitely. No visitors, no walks, no nothing. Food dispensed via air lock in door.


:checkmark:

Most people at this stage aren't usually vaccinated because of the risk of the immune response.

I'm going to sound heartless for saying this but the two people in Israel were on their way out anyways, it sucks for their families but the reality is we are all going to die and if you
They were probably at the point where literally any viral infection would have killed them or put them in the ICU.

Chris Rock made joke that any death over 70 is natural causes.

When you die at 72, no matter what you die of, it's natural causes. Even if you get hit by a truck, it's natural causes. 'Cause if you was younger, you'd have got out the way!
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3937
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:57 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Vaccination is obviously a good thing to get a better handle on COVID-19, but as of today not one country has changed to rules and allows vaccinated people entry. Most if not all countries STILL require proof of a negative COVID-19 test. And as long as that rule is on the books, vaccination means nothing (for travel).

I also wonder, if you have been vaccinated, what will a subsequent COVID-19 test (PCR) show? That you are infected??

Those who receive a vaccine might test positive for Covid-19 specific antibodies despite being protected from sickness.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhas ... 34e91f2381


It may be a typo, PCR test looks for antigen, not antibodies.


They PCR test looks for RNA specific to Covid19.

Antigen tests (rapid tests) look for protein fragments that is less accurate but it is a good screening as those who test positive should isolate and get a PCR test.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:11 pm

Jan 6th
89 year old dies of intracerebral hemorrhage in Italy a day after she received the vaccine. She also developed a severe skin rash.
An autopsy is being carried out.

https://www.lastampa.it/cronaca/2021/01 ... 1.39739210


In the meanwhile, the wife of the deceased Miami doctor:

The love of my life, my husband Gregory Michael MD
an Obstetrician that had his office in Mount Sinai Medical Center in Miami Beach Died the day before yesterday due to a strong reaction to the COVID vaccine.
He was a very healthy 56 year old, loved by everyone in the community delivered hundreds of healthy babies and worked tireless through the pandemic.
He was vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine at MSMC on December 18, 3 days later he saw a strong set of petechiae on his feet and hands which made him seek attention at the emergency room at MSMC. The CBC that was done at his arrival showed his platelet count to be 0 (A normal platelet count ranges from 150,000 to 450,000 platelets per microliter of blood.) he was admitted in the ICU with a diagnosis of acute ITP caused by a reaction to the COVID vaccine. A team of expert doctors tried for 2 weeks to raise his platelet count to no avail. Experts from all over the country were involved in his care. No matter what they did, the platelets count refused to go up. He was conscious and energetic through the whole process but 2 days before a last resort surgery, he got a hemorrhagic stroke caused by the lack of platelets that took his life in a matter of minutes.
He was a pro vaccine advocate that is why he got it himself.
I believe that people should be aware that side effects can happened, that it is not good for everyone and in this case destroyed a beautiful life, a perfect family, and has affected so many people in the community
Do not let his death be in vain please save more lives by making this information news.


https://www.facebook.com/heidi.neckelma ... 7790183977


Again, it's too soon but proceed with caution.
Also, be prepared to take responsibility if you suggest it to people around you.


From initial reports, I suggest that if you plan to inoculate elderly over 80, you should consider ensuring that they are in optimal physical condition and to avoid doing it during cold weather, as the strong reaction to the vaccine could be enough to tip their fragile lives over.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9790
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:05 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Here's another one.

CDC, Miami-Dade investigate death of Miami Beach doctor following COVID-19 vaccine

(..)

Pfizer, the manufacturer of the vaccine Michael received Dec. 18, said Michael died of a “highly unusual clinical case of severe thrombocytopenia, a condition that decreases the body’s ability to clot blood and stop internal bleeding.”


https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 37525.html



and another one:


The man had received the first dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine during the afternoon as part of Israel’s mass inoculation program. He later collapsed at home. Paramedics called to the scene worked to resuscitate him as they rushed him to Hadassah Mount Scopus Medical Center where doctors later pronounced his death. Discouraging any link between the shot and the death, the hospital said the man suffered from “chronic, complex and difficult” health conditions, without specifying.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/88-year-o ... ously-ill/



So far not very encouraging as you can see and this is mere weeks after they started.
As inoculations ramp up, this kind of news is going to increase and then I wonder if people here wil be able to stand by their current opinions.

If you look at the post-vaccination side effects, especially the second shots, they are heavy enough to send weak elderly people to heaven.

Israel has done how many innoculations now ? ( 3..4million?)
How many "instaKills" from those? 2? 3?

I miss some minimal sense of proportions here!
Murphy is an optimist
 
art
Posts: 3822
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:42 pm

Israel has done how many innoculations now ? ( 3..4million?)
How many "instaKills" from those? 2? 3?

I miss some minimal sense of proportions here!


I agree. To me the sensible thing to ask is: what are the chances of catching the virus and dying from it versus the chances of dying from the vaccination? I guess that the risk from the virus is higher. I think the trials bear that out. IIRC in the AstraZeneca trial nobody who had been vaccinated died as a result of reacting to the vaccine. None of the vaccinated people who nevertheless contracted the virus died of its effects. Several in the placebo group contracted the virus and died of its effects.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4612
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:47 pm

Res the old dying a natural death:

In the 1940s those surviving past 65 were considered old and likely to die, or at least most people would have thought so.
By the 1970s that age had changed to 75.
Now in the 2020s that figure may have risen to 80 years of age.

I'm 80 and told my dentist to do enough for me to keep my teeth going another 5 years. He thought I should aim for 10. There are a lot of us that old or older in my condo. The number of very healthy 80+ years old is large and growing. Skiers, bikers, runners, running for political office, one or two still working. In my large extended family dying before 80 is considered unusual and too soon. After 80 it might be OK to die.

Covid: Our county which has/had done phenomenally well in keeping cases and deaths down, is being hit pretty hard right now. Whereas a couple months ago I felt safe seeing some 15 people on an occasional basis, that is no longer true. Vaccines cannot come too soon. Washington State has reduced the 'old age' eligibility from 75 years old to 70. That is somewhat in line with the earlier parts of this post. A 70 year old person, while more likely to die from covid, still may have 15 years of being healthy.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:41 pm

New Zealand is delaying vaccinations until the second half of 2021, despite that it will start to receive doses in the first half.

In the announcement on Thursday, Ardern went to some length to justify New Zealand’s vaccine timing.

“We are moving as fast as we can, but we also want to ensure the vaccine is safe for New Zealanders,” she said. “All of these vaccines still must pass Medsafe approval for use here in New Zealand.

“As you will know, some countries are granting emergency use authorisations ahead of the usual clinical assessment and approval process.

“That’s in response to the public health emergency that is gripping their nations. Unlike in New Zealand, they face widespread community transmission of Covid-19 and a rapidly mounting death toll,” Ardern said.



https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health ... dy-started


Their competent initial handling gives them the room to assess the vaccines without rushing, unlike other countries where safety is taking the backseat.

NZ has also willfully chosen for a variety of 4 vaccines of 3 different technology platforms to "ensure diversity across the different types of vaccines".
The approach allows for certain vaccines to be more suited for certain population groups or locations.
Safety first.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9neeQGU73iA


Basically, she said "other countries are authorizing because they're in big $#1t, we can and will afford to wait until we are sure that they're safe".
 
art
Posts: 3822
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:22 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
New Zealand is delaying vaccinations until the second half of 2021, despite that it will start to receive doses in the first half.

In the announcement on Thursday, Ardern went to some length to justify New Zealand’s vaccine timing.

“We are moving as fast as we can, but we also want to ensure the vaccine is safe for New Zealanders,” she said. “All of these vaccines still must pass Medsafe approval for use here in New Zealand.

“As you will know, some countries are granting emergency use authorisations ahead of the usual clinical assessment and approval process.

“That’s in response to the public health emergency that is gripping their nations. Unlike in New Zealand, they face widespread community transmission of Covid-19 and a rapidly mounting death toll,” Ardern said.



https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health ... dy-started


Their competent initial handling gives them the room to assess the vaccines without rushing, unlike other countries where safety is taking the backseat.

NZ has also willfully chosen for a variety of 4 vaccines of 3 different technology platforms to "ensure diversity across the different types of vaccines".
The approach allows for certain vaccines to be more suited for certain population groups or locations.
Safety first.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9neeQGU73iA


Basically, she said "other countries are authorizing because they're in big $#1t, we can and will afford to wait until we are sure that they're safe".


Yes, I would say that other countries are authorizing because they're in big $#1t. Hence the emergency use authorisation.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1815
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:37 am

WIederling wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Here's another one.

CDC, Miami-Dade investigate death of Miami Beach doctor following COVID-19 vaccine

(..)

Pfizer, the manufacturer of the vaccine Michael received Dec. 18, said Michael died of a “highly unusual clinical case of severe thrombocytopenia, a condition that decreases the body’s ability to clot blood and stop internal bleeding.”


https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 37525.html



and another one:


The man had received the first dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine during the afternoon as part of Israel’s mass inoculation program. He later collapsed at home. Paramedics called to the scene worked to resuscitate him as they rushed him to Hadassah Mount Scopus Medical Center where doctors later pronounced his death. Discouraging any link between the shot and the death, the hospital said the man suffered from “chronic, complex and difficult” health conditions, without specifying.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/88-year-o ... ously-ill/



So far not very encouraging as you can see and this is mere weeks after they started.
As inoculations ramp up, this kind of news is going to increase and then I wonder if people here wil be able to stand by their current opinions.

If you look at the post-vaccination side effects, especially the second shots, they are heavy enough to send weak elderly people to heaven.

Israel has done how many innoculations now ? ( 3..4million?)
How many "instaKills" from those? 2? 3?

I miss some minimal sense of proportions here!

There have been over 23 million vaccines given worldwide. Even if the vaccine is perfectly safe, some people are going to die shortly after getting it.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
LittleFokker
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:25 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:00 am

cledaybuck wrote:
There have been over 23 million vaccines given worldwide. Even if the vaccine is perfectly safe, some people are going to die shortly after getting it.


If anyone dies as a result of taking a vaccine, then it's not "perfectly safe." However, if the risk is low, then it becomes tolerable and outweighs the benefits of getting the population vaccinated.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:04 am

LittleFokker wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
There have been over 23 million vaccines given worldwide. Even if the vaccine is perfectly safe, some people are going to die shortly after getting it.


If anyone dies as a result of taking a vaccine, then it's not "perfectly safe." However, if the risk is low, then it becomes tolerable and outweighs the benefits of getting the population vaccinated.


Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1815
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:19 am

LittleFokker wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
There have been over 23 million vaccines given worldwide. Even if the vaccine is perfectly safe, some people are going to die shortly after getting it.


If anyone dies as a result of taking a vaccine, then it's not "perfectly safe." However, if the risk is low, then it becomes tolerable and outweighs the benefits of getting the population vaccinated.

I’m saying that with over 23 million having taken it, some are going to die shortly after having taken it even if it is perfectly safe. With such a large sample, someone is bound to have a completely unrelated death.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8590
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:56 am

cledaybuck wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
There have been over 23 million vaccines given worldwide. Even if the vaccine is perfectly safe, some people are going to die shortly after getting it.


If anyone dies as a result of taking a vaccine, then it's not "perfectly safe." However, if the risk is low, then it becomes tolerable and outweighs the benefits of getting the population vaccinated.

I’m saying that with over 23 million having taken it, some are going to die shortly after having taken it even if it is perfectly safe. With such a large sample, someone is bound to have a completely unrelated death.


Especially if you’re 89 years old like the Italian lady previously mentioned..
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LittleFokker
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:25 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:39 am

cledaybuck wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:
If anyone dies as a result of taking a vaccine, then it's not "perfectly safe." However, if the risk is low, then it becomes tolerable and outweighs the benefits of getting the population vaccinated.

I’m saying that with over 23 million having taken it, some are going to die shortly after having taken it even if it is perfectly safe. With such a large sample, someone is bound to have a completely unrelated death.

Dieuwer wrote:

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc.


I just noticed I mistyped. I meant to say that if the risk of death is low, then the benefit of the whole population getting vaccinated greatly outweighs the risk of a small subset suffering negative side effects or death. My point was that the term "perfectly safe" is not the proper term to use for a vaccine.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:44 pm

So there is this article that explains better than I why a vaccine-centered strategy is a total stupidity and that if the US wants to reduce its fatality count, it should impose a lockdown ASAP.

No Magic Cure
Biden’s wager may be to simply hold out as best as possible until a vaccine is rolled out and returns everything to normal. But even before Trump’s rejection of Pfizer’s offer of millions in backup vaccines, there were serious doubts this would be as simple as it sounds.

As Biden’s own adviser, Osterholm, and other experts have pointed out, there are countless variables involved with the eventual vaccines, including whether they will be equally effective for all age groups; what, if any, side effects they may cause; and how long immunity will last. Several studies have found that the virus infects the brain, where antibodies can’t get to it, which could make an eventual vaccine less effective than predicted. Then there’s the problem of growing anti-vaccination sentiment, which, if large enough, could seriously set back efforts to eliminate the pandemic.

Biden and his science advisers’ anti-lockdown stance is neither pegged to what the science or data tells us, nor to where the majority of the American public is.
On top of this, state governments expect to vaccinate all of their residents over the course of anywhere between six and twelve months. As Pennsylvania’s health secretary warned last month, it will take “months and months and months” to distribute the vaccine to all Pennsylvanians alone. And even then, it will not “be a magical cure for coronavirus and will not immediately end the pandemic,” and may be more like the flu vaccine, which weakens symptoms and protects against only some strains.

In other words, there’s a good chance the existence of even the most effective vaccine isn’t going to eliminate the need for the kind of “circuit-breaker” shutdown the Johnson government was forced to do in England at the urging of scientists, particularly by the time the US winter is done. As University College London’s Dr Amitava Banerjee said as the virus raged through England in October:

Even if vaccines and better treatments for severe [COVID] infection are developed, the way to minimize excess deaths is to reduce the infection rate through population level measures (including lockdown), protecting and treating those at higher risk, and implementing and maintaining adequate “test, trace and isolate” systems as a matter of urgency. Without these three strategies, more cases and excess deaths will occur.

But rather than use his electoral mandate to sell the public on the need for temporary restrictions and build popular support for an economic package to underwrite them, Biden and his team are inadvertently lending weight to right-wing attacks on these measures. Worse, the president-elect has done the same for the broadly supported policy of mask-wearing, assuring Americans they only need to wear a mask for one hundred days — at odds with not only the vaccine rollout timeline, but the pre-election opinion of scientists, who see mask-wearing as potentially a necessity for the medium term at least.


https://jacobinmag.com/2020/12/biden-co ... wn-science

Good luck America, you're going to need it.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:51 am

Coronavirus: New variant found in travellers arriving in Japan from Brazil

https://www.euronews.com/2021/01/10/cor ... rom-brazil


Brazilian coronavirus variant shares South African mutation that could make vaccines less effective
A coronavirus variant identified in Rio de Janeiro is gaining ground in Brazil
It shares mutations seen in the more infectious variant found in the UK and now in at least eight US states
Brazil's variant also shares mutations to its spike protein seen in South Africa's variant
These mutations may make the virus harder for antibodies to recognize and 'neutralize' the virus, potentially weakening the effects of vaccines.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/arti ... -them.html
 
M564038
Posts: 543
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:48 pm

We have had 8 people dying after vaccination, and that out of 10 000 vaccinated so far.

Why?

Because we started with the absolute weakest and oldest. Those 8 were going to die anyway.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8724
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:49 pm

There is significant shortage of vaccine in Michigan. County stopped taking appointments. State wants to buy 100k doses directly. The latest news is as of now, not everyone who qualifies will not get one.

Looks like Fauci and Biden are at odds on how to distribute. Two doses for few (vs) One dose for many.

Only a handful of countries started vaccinations, there is a shortage, imagine when the entire world places orders for huge volumes.

There is no plan for under 16.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:59 pm

M564038 wrote:
We have had 8 people dying after vaccination, and that out of 10 000 vaccinated so far.

Why?

Because we started with the absolute weakest and oldest. Those 8 were going to die anyway.


Can you provide more details?
Where is this and who is "we"?
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:02 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
There is significant shortage of vaccine in Michigan. County stopped taking appointments. State wants to buy 100k doses directly. The latest news is as of now, not everyone who qualifies will not get one.

Looks like Fauci and Biden are at odds on how to distribute. Two doses for few (vs) One dose for many.

Only a handful of countries started vaccinations, there is a shortage, imagine when the entire world places orders for huge volumes.

There is no plan for under 16.



I was at a pharmacy this afternoon (unnamed place in West-Europe) and overheard a physician discussing vaccines with the pharmacist.
Government is doing vaccinations directly in centers, pharmacies not involved, physicians not informed and not even in the loop about their own patients.
Very obscure stuff.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:03 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I was at a pharmacy this afternoon (unnamed place in West-Europe) and overheard a physician discussing vaccines with the pharmacist.
Government is doing vaccinations directly in centers, pharmacies not involved, physicians not informed and not even in the loop about their own patients.
Very obscure stuff.


Are you referring to Mengele?
 
art
Posts: 3822
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:09 pm

Israel is racing ahead with vaccination. Some days over 150,000 people have been jabbed.

https://www.politico.eu/article/israel- ... ss-secret/

Perhaps other countries should be looking at how Israel is doing it before coming up with their own idea of how to do it. With a population of less than 10 million, there are days where they jab >1.5% of the population!

I am very interested to see what happens to reported infection numbers as the proportion of the population that has been vaccinated increases.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:51 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
I was at a pharmacy this afternoon (unnamed place in West-Europe) and overheard a physician discussing vaccines with the pharmacist.
Government is doing vaccinations directly in centers, pharmacies not involved, physicians not informed and not even in the loop about their own patients.
Very obscure stuff.


Are you referring to Mengele?


You laugh about it but it is very weird.
The way the system normally works where I am, is that pharmacies provide the vaccines and physicians or their nurses carry them out.
Usually my parents got a yearly invitation from the physician for the flu vaccine. Invitations for the Covid vaccine are now coming straight from the vaccination centers, bypassing the physician.

I get it, with the mRNA vacines there is a cold chain to respect, but that's nothing new for pharmacies in this country.
They are used to handling medicines in a cold chain and we have a highly efficient logistics system that delivers medicines to pharmacies across the country twice per day. Also, how hard can it be to set up a freezer? Most pharmacies in this country have real pharmacists with a lab in the pharmacy and are used to following strict protocols.

The really weird part however is not that the vaccinations are being carried out in government centers as opposed to by physicians via pharmacies.
It's that physicians seem to not be informed about the patients under their care receiving the vaccines. That is abnormal, considering the risk of side effects.
Either government is extremely focused solely on getting as many people jabbed that they are not even bothered about after-care or, and this is what worries me, perhaps they don't want the physicians to be involved in this process to avoid reporting of side effects or figuring out real life effectiveness?

To me, it is very concerning that physicians are not being kept in the loop on vaccination status of their own patients, especially considering that we have a very efficient IT system that allows healthcare workers to track patient data inputs from all sources. Physicians get a pop up on their screen when one of their patients is admitted to hospital. Yes, it's that efficient. They also get daily reporting for inputs for all patients under their care.
Yet somehow, the Covid vaccinations are not being registered in the patient data.
I'm going to dig deeper into this and try to figure out what's going on via my own physician. I'll also let you know if this is just a temporary data input issue rather than an attempt to side track the physicians. I will also try to find out if people who get vaccinated are being told to contact anyone specific in case of side effects instead of their physician.

By the way, the discussion that I witnessed at the pharmacy by pure coincidence showed very concerned professionals sharing a genuine concern about this process. I don't think that this is a joking matter.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9790
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:55 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The way the system normally works where I am, is that pharmacies provide the vaccines and physicians or their nurses carry them out.
Usually my parents got a yearly invitation from the physician for the flu vaccine. Invitations for the Covid vaccine are now coming straight from the vaccination centers, bypassing the physician.


Mass vaccinations used to be done in state health centers. Big installations around in Germany up to about the 80ties
( TB X-Ray screenings, Polio innoculation, communicable disease control .. people today have forgotten so much about how that current health state was achieved. )
when things like small pox vaccination were deemed no longer necessary.

The pharmacy distribution chain does not entail anything beyond regular freezer capabilities.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:27 pm

WIederling wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
The way the system normally works where I am, is that pharmacies provide the vaccines and physicians or their nurses carry them out.
Usually my parents got a yearly invitation from the physician for the flu vaccine. Invitations for the Covid vaccine are now coming straight from the vaccination centers, bypassing the physician.


Mass vaccinations used to be done in state health centers. Big installations around in Germany up to about the 80ties
( TB X-Ray screenings, Polio innoculation, communicable disease control .. people today have forgotten so much about how that current health state was achieved. )
when things like small pox vaccination were deemed no longer necessary.

The pharmacy distribution chain does not entail anything beyond regular freezer capabilities.


Regular freezer capabilities are sufficient for the distribution of the mRNA vaccines.
Setting up a network of vaccination centres is cumbersome and unnecessary. It will only result in people waiting in line to get vaccinated, a great opportunity to infect each other.

Like I said, these vaccination campaigns may actually help spread COVID and lead to mass infection events at the vaccination sites.

Florida seniors begin swarming COVID-19 vaccination sites

Image

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2 ... utType=amp


It’s so absurd that it’s almost funny (but it ain’t).
 
StarAC17
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:53 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
The way the system normally works where I am, is that pharmacies provide the vaccines and physicians or their nurses carry them out.
Usually my parents got a yearly invitation from the physician for the flu vaccine. Invitations for the Covid vaccine are now coming straight from the vaccination centers, bypassing the physician.


Mass vaccinations used to be done in state health centers. Big installations around in Germany up to about the 80ties
( TB X-Ray screenings, Polio innoculation, communicable disease control .. people today have forgotten so much about how that current health state was achieved. )
when things like small pox vaccination were deemed no longer necessary.

The pharmacy distribution chain does not entail anything beyond regular freezer capabilities.


Regular freezer capabilities are sufficient for the distribution of the mRNA vaccines.
Setting up a network of vaccination centres is cumbersome and unnecessary. It will only result in people waiting in line to get vaccinated, a great opportunity to infect each other.

Like I said, these vaccination campaigns may actually help spread COVID and lead to mass infection events at the vaccination sites.

Florida seniors begin swarming COVID-19 vaccination sites

Image

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2 ... utType=amp


It’s so absurd that it’s almost funny (but it ain’t).


The Moderna vaccine needs to be stored at -20 or so which is well within the capability of a conventional freezer.

As for the photo, yes they could be standing further apart but most of the people there are masked and its sunny and probably 25 degrees out and its a line. They are taking precautions, probably more than you who is still traveling across Europe on what seems like a weekly basis.

If there is an infected person in that line if they are getting anyone sick its the people directly in front of them or behind them not the whole line and that is if they are interacting. There were fears about this from the US election and as far as I know there were no significant events of transmission from voting.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:33 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Florida seniors begin swarming COVID-19 vaccination sites

Image

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2 ... utType=amp

.


It is certainly not helpful to see those seniors standing too close to each other. Social distancing not observed.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:45 pm

Nearly 1 million vaccines administered in the US yesterday alone. Things are ramping up considerably.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations
 
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Aesma
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:47 am

I just saw on French TV that the UK government plans to vaccinate 15 million people by the end of February.

Am I missing something, will they get anywhere close to that number of doses by that time ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
art
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:42 am

Aesma wrote:
I just saw on French TV that the UK government plans to vaccinate 15 million people by the end of February.

Am I missing something, will they get anywhere close to that number of doses by that time ?


That is about right. I think the target is 13 million+ by the middle of February. I am not very confident that it will happen . The vaccination figures for England are being published on a daily basis since Monday.

Injections 11/01/2021 - 140,000
Injections 12/01/2021 - 187,000

Total injections since 08/12/2020 - 2,661,000

To give first dose to the target groups by target date the level needs to be more like 250,000 injections per day. The number of places giving vaccinations is growing quickly so I hope the daily level will rise to that number in the next few days.

Source: https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/s ... cinations/
 
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Aesma
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:24 am

But will they get the vaccine doses ? Germany started fast then had to close vaccination centers because there were no more doses available. Here in France we expect to get something like 4 million doses in the first 2 months, not 15 million ! Even if there is a ramp up, added orders etc., it doesn't seem possible to get 3 or 4 times more doses.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
CranfordBoy
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:07 am

Aesma wrote:
But will they get the vaccine doses ? Germany started fast then had to close vaccination centers because there were no more doses available. Here in France we expect to get something like 4 million doses in the first 2 months, not 15 million ! Even if there is a ramp up, added orders etc., it doesn't seem possible to get 3 or 4 times more doses.


Over 200k given on the 12th:

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details ... date_daily

Does seem to be ramping up significantly. Apparently over 20 million does are in the UK but not all have been checked and put in vials yet.
 
CranfordBoy
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:57 am

Useful graphical summaries of how vaccinations are progressing in various countries:

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
 
yonahleung
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:40 pm

Aesma wrote:
But will they get the vaccine doses ? Germany started fast then had to close vaccination centers because there were no more doses available. Here in France we expect to get something like 4 million doses in the first 2 months, not 15 million ! Even if there is a ramp up, added orders etc., it doesn't seem possible to get 3 or 4 times more doses.

The UK have the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine in its arsenal and they are currently the only user country of the vaccine so there should be a very abundant supply. They also are earlier in line for the Pfizer/BioNtech vaccine and they don't have to deal with the EU bureaucracy or care about equity between 27 EU states or following the very strict priority list handed down by Cuomo. The NHS should be able to get its hands on a lot of doses and send them out.

Israel has a separate deal with Pfizer/BioNtech where they will get 10 mil doses in return for full sharing of patient data. So basically Israel signed up to be a testbed to get pole position in the line. A very different creature than the rest of the world.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:09 pm

Aesma wrote:
But will they get the vaccine doses ? Germany started fast then had to close vaccination centers because there were no more doses available. Here in France we expect to get something like 4 million doses in the first 2 months, not 15 million ! Even if there is a ramp up, added orders etc., it doesn't seem possible to get 3 or 4 times more doses.



Oxford/Astra Zeneca will produce up to 2million doses per week in the UK.
https://www.politico.eu/article/astraze ... 2m-a-week/

The UK has ordered 100million doses of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine and 40million of the Pfizer Vaccine plus 7million of the Moderna vaccine
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/u-k-n ... 1609317819.


The UK was pretty quick to order up at the time the candidates from the drug companies.

100 million doses of University of Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine
40 million doses of BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine
7 million doses of Moderna vaccine
60 million doses of Novavax vaccine
60 million doses of Valneva vaccine
60 million doses of GSK/Sanofi Pasteur vaccine
30 million doses of Janssen vaccine
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-g ... 19-vaccine
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:03 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by pretty quick, the EU ordered vaccines in something like June. The real efficacy of the Oxford vaccine isn't known yet, the lab itself isn't sure of the strategy to get the best results, other countries aren't all eager to use it (nothing to do with the EU). Considering the antivaxx sentiment in France, rolling out this one right now would probably cause backlash.

2 millions per week that will all be made for the UK, or for all their customers worldwide ?

Personally I would probably take it anyway, maybe with another vaccine later in the year to be extra safe ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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ArcticSEA
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:54 pm

Have we seen any statistically significant change in positive percentage rate, hospitalizations, deaths, etc. since the vaccine started being administered? The thought was that at some point those stats would fall of a cliff when the affects of the vaccine became apparent. I think there was a study out of Israel recently, but I'm curious if we've seen anything similar in the US yet?
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flyguy89
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:14 am

ArcticSEA wrote:
Have we seen any statistically significant change in positive percentage rate, hospitalizations, deaths, etc. since the vaccine started being administered? The thought was that at some point those stats would fall of a cliff when the affects of the vaccine became apparent. I think there was a study out of Israel recently, but I'm curious if we've seen anything similar in the US yet?

It’s going to be a couple weeks before enough people have been vaccinated in various locales in the US to start making a dent.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:27 am

I just got my second dose of Pfizer. Oddly, my arm is less sore this time than last time.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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alberchico
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:29 am

https://abc7ny.com/health/mount-sinai-c ... w/9665172/

So here in NYC people are having their appointments cancelled because the hospitals miscalculated how many vaccines they were going to receive. Sheesh. They had so much time to prepare for this. The next available appointments for some people could be by Easter.

Image
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
94717
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:41 am

Norway consider that UK strategy only giving 1 dosis might lead to resistent version of Covid;

------------------------


British strategy could lead to vaccine-resistant mutation
The UK chooses to vaccinate many with one dose instead of vaccinating a few with two doses. It can lead to vaccine-resistant viruses.

The British have calculated the numbers and found that the protection after dose one is around 90 percent on the Pfizer vaccine and 70 percent on AstraZenecas.

Therefore, they have changed the vaccine course, and decided that it gives more benefit to protect a larger part of the population a little with one dose than to hold back and offer two doses to a few.

But what we do not know is how the body reacts to just a little protection, says immunologist Fridtjof Lund-Johansen at the Department of Immunology Oslo University Hospital to VG.

He is a doctor and conducts research on, among other things, the antibody response to covid-19.

- In the worst case, it is conceivable that if you only give one dose, you can breed vaccine-resistant viruses. If that happens, it's really bad.

This monster mutation can have consequences for vaccines - also in Norway. If such a virus variant were to develop, it could put the work of vaccinating the world's population far back.

Thus, this variant can spread and "take over" and push the other variants aside, which is happening with the new mutation in the UK now.

- What one is worried about is that incomplete vaccination will be like stopping antibiotic treatment too soon. Then we risk getting resistance, in that a virus mutates and changes so that other vaccinated people are no longer protected, he says and adds:

- It's a game of chance.

The British still intend to give the inhabitants a second dose, but extend it to around three months.

And during that time, things can happen:

This happens in concrete terms in that the body gets a weakened immune response that becomes a breeding ground for a virus to frolic and mutate in a human.

The renowned American magazine Science also writes about the phenomenon .

Preliminary studies show that the vaccine works on the mutations we have in circulation today. The risk of only taking dose one is that a new variant with many changes.

Lund-Johansen adds that a dose can provide long-term protection for most people. The risk arises when you vaccinate an entire population. Then there is clearly a chance that more people will have a weak response, and when the infection pressure is high, they can get an infection.

- It is quite possible that it can happen. Viral variants can spread in a person who has weakened immune response.

- Based on this curve, it is not so strange that the English think as they do. There is little doubt that it is better to get a dose than nothing.

The danger of mutated viruses is currently theoretical, and we do not know if it will happen, Lund-Johansen points out.

- On the other hand, we know that very many will die if you do not get many vaccinated fast enough. This is a difficult dilemma.

But we do not know if it will lead to vaccine-resistant viruses:

- Then you have a risk that must be weighed into the calculation. But the risk that people are not fully protected, it may be possible to live with.

FHI's expert on vaccine effect, Sara Sofie Viksmoen Watle, also understands the British:

- The reason why they do it in England, is that the situation there is very different. They have an enormous infection pressure and have a great burden on the health care system. Then you sometimes have to think of opportunities and not limitations

- It can be a sensible strategy in the pressured situation they are in.

Mutations are tested
As for the UK mutation that now dominates large parts of England, one of the FHI's hypotheses is that it emerged precisely in this way : namely that the mutation originated in a single human being who had weakened immune response (but not for vaccine reasons).

- FHI's hypothesis will fit completely into this picture, Lund-Johansen explains.

This is also confirmed by Geir Bukholm, Director of Infection Control at FHI:

- It is very scary, and is one of the reasons why we do not want to change the dosing interval, he says to VG.

Bukholm says that vaccine resistance is a possibility, and something they fear:

- We will be very afraid of a selection of vaccine-resistant virus variants, and that is one of the reasons why we do not want to change the dosing interval.

-Theoretically, increasing the dosing interval between doses one and two can lead to virus variants being selected against which the vaccine will not be effective. We can not say with certainty that this will happen, but these are things we take into account when we do not recommend increasing the interval between the two doses.

BioNTech and Pfizer have previously tested 16 variants of the virus against which antibodies (via blood samples) from vaccinated individuals were effective.

Now they are testing many variants of the virus, but so far only results from testing of a mutation (N501Y), which is the mutation that is common to the virus variants from the UK and South Africa.

- This alone does not seem to affect the vaccine's effect, but we do not know if all the mutations together will do them, says Viksmoen Watle.




https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/3 ... t-mutasjon
 
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alberchico
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:39 pm

https://nypost.com/2021/01/15/23-die-in ... 9-vaccine/

I"m surprised this is getting more press.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
LNCS0930
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:49 pm

alberchico wrote:
https://nypost.com/2021/01/15/23-die-in-norway-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/

I"m surprised this is getting more press.


Some probably had underlying conditions. There have been reports of some people with certain types of cancer dying shortly after the vaccine because the vaccine reactivates aspects of the cancer which had gone into remission. I know some people with leukemia have died because they have seen a reactivating of their hemolytic anemia after the vaccine. This is definitely something anyone with these conditions should research beforehand
 
flyguy89
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:46 pm

Over 1 million vaccines administered in the US yesterday.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:05 pm

alberchico wrote:
https://nypost.com/2021/01/15/23-die-in-norway-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/

I"m surprised this is getting more press.


My information is that most of these patients were already end-of-life/palliative care patients, so of course many of them died. Norwegian authorities are updating their recommendations to recommend that these patients not be vaccinated because there is so little potential for benefit.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
art
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:06 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Over 1 million vaccines administered in the US yesterday.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations


Numbers rising in England as well. Last 4 days: 140K 187K 248K 279K

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/s ... cinations/
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Updated: A COVID-19 vaccine candidate works!

Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:05 am

Aesma wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by pretty quick, the EU ordered vaccines in something like June.

Per the UK governments published plan: "The UK was the first country in the world to secure access to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine and to start deploying it as an authorised vaccine (under Regulation 174). The UK was also the first country to procure, authorise (under Regulation 174) and commence deployment of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine."

So front of the queue with two of the three western approved vaccines. Likewise will be early adopters of the Janssen (J&J) and Novavax vaccines, having invested in them and hosted Phase III trials in the UK. They are both expected to be approved in February. The Novavax one will be produced in the UK among other sites.

Yesterday the Scottish government released details of vaccine supply through summer. They had to pull the document after the UK government pointed out the data was sensitive. However what it showed (given that vaccines are distributed to the home nations on a per capita basis) was that the UK will have had sufficient supply to give two doses to the entire adult (over 16) population by mid July. And that assumes
  • 100% take up - more likely to be in the 80% range
  • 5% wastage - reality more like 1%
  • Based on a "worst case scenario" (Whatever that means
  • No Janssen or Novavax deliveries (presumably since they haven't been approved yet)
Of course, supply is only one half of the equation. Getting it into people arms is the other.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-eve ... y-12188909

I'm not being patriotic here. The government's response to the pandemic has been abysmal from a public policy perspective. But on a scientific level things have world beating, with the Recovery Trial, vaccine development and not least genomic sequencing. At the point the UK variant was discovered in December, no less than 45% of global covid sequencing had been done in the UK.

Aesma wrote:
The real efficacy of the Oxford vaccine isn't known yet, the lab itself isn't sure of the strategy to get the best results, other countries aren't all eager to use it (nothing to do with the EU).


Every word of this is wrong. As I pointed out upthread, the efficacy figure (for preventing mild covid) is not ultimately the important thing, but they do have a baseline figure, and also the data that points to efficacy increasing as the doses are separated - the sweet spot being 8-12 weeks. They have numbers but they have high 95% confidence intervals - they are on the gov.uk website somewhere, can't find them at the moment. But the important number is that the number of severe/hospitalisation/fatal cases remains 0/0/0 amongst those given the vaccine. That was still true in the new year, with near two months additional data. And let's not confuse efficacy with safety - the safety data is rock solid. It's one thing taking an informed punt on efficacy, quite another on safety.

As for other countries? A quick google for orders in the past month (i.e. after the interim results were published):
  • Thailand (5th Jan) 35m doses
  • Philippines (15th Jan) 17m
  • New Zealand (17th Dec) 7.6m (reported as 3.8m courses)
  • India (11th Jan) Additional 11m for frontline workers
  • Morocco (15 Jan) Amount unknown
  • South Africa (11 Jan) initial 1.5m
  • Indonesia (31 Dec) 50m
  • Myanmar (8 Jan) 30m
  • Kenya (17 Dec) 24m (may have been actually ordered earlier)
  • Vietnam (3 Jan) 30m
I got bored at that point. But that's a lot of nations who've been able to look past the "62%".
Down with that sort of thing!

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