The lawsuit against Houston Methodist is going to appeal. Historically, the judge has 28% of cases overturned.
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 709591002/

I like how the employees demand proof of 100% safety, but the article notes how for a bunch of patients giving them coronavirus is a death sentence.

At my relative's hospital they can point to one person infecting six cancer patients of which they have to choose between death by cancerbor coronavirus (other 3 recovered, with cancer and certain kidney diseases, the treatments prevent an effective defense against coronavirus and vice versa).

It will be interesting to follow this case. In my opinion, so much of the filing is unsubstantiated bunk that has already been refuted.

In my opinion, the judge is far from being a liberal...

Lightsaber

The USA is announces investment of over $3 billion in antiviral medicines.

https://apnews.com/article/d9cfa18e561f ... e77353ab01

aerolimani wrote:

With nearly 80% of the UK population having received their first dose, the UK does not need to be introducing a new vaccine type at this time. They need to continue with second doses of the vaccine types they’ve already administered.

It’s the same with Canada not taking deliveries of J&J, even though the contract is in place, and it is one of the few approved by Health Canada. They’ve committed to exclusively Pfizer, AstraZeneca, and Moderna.

The only reason (I can think of) that the UK might purchase a new type, at this time, would be to pass it directly on to the COVAX program.

At the moment less than two thirds of the population of England has received a first jab, I don't like UK authorities pushing out figures that do not reflect the real situation: 80% of adults having received a first jab sounds better than 63% of the population having received a first jab, doesn't it?

Also, for reasons I do not understand, the number of jabs administered in England each day continues to fall. 7 day total to May 24th = 3.43 million; 7 day total to June 14th = 2.73 million. The UK government was talking of raising it to 4m a week (for the whole of the UK) not so long ago. Where did that go, I wonder.

PS And while vaccination falls, infections are growing exponentially...

art wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

With nearly 80% of the UK population having received their first dose, the UK does not need to be introducing a new vaccine type at this time. They need to continue with second doses of the vaccine types they’ve already administered.

It’s the same with Canada not taking deliveries of J&J, even though the contract is in place, and it is one of the few approved by Health Canada. They’ve committed to exclusively Pfizer, AstraZeneca, and Moderna.

The only reason (I can think of) that the UK might purchase a new type, at this time, would be to pass it directly on to the COVAX program.

At the moment less than two thirds of the population of England has received a first jab, I don't like UK authorities pushing out figures that do not reflect the real situation: 80% of adults having received a first jab sounds better than 63% of the population having received a first jab, doesn't it?

Also, for reasons I do not understand, the number of jabs administered in England each day continues to fall. 7 day total to May 24th = 3.43 million; 7 day total to June 14th = 2.73 million. The UK government was talking of raising it to 4m a week (for the whole of the UK) not so long ago. Where did that go, I wonder.

PS And while vaccination falls, infections are growing exponentially...

My point still stands. 80% of the currently eligible eligible population has had at least one shot. Currently, they need more of the same types of vaccines as have already been administered. New types are not helpful at this time. That won’t change anytime soon unless a new vaccine is suddenly approved for under 12’s. That is not going to happen before the end of 2021.

You won't find a link on this but the hospital all the other "referral hospitals" send surplus patients is full in Mesa County Colorado.

They have beds, a whole ward ready. The nurses are saying "no, there is no need for another year of hell." Administrators started assigning nurses and telling them this is part of your job, too many had a ready resignation letter and just said no to working the coronavirus ward. They have a ward ready, doctors ready, but are scrambling to get enough nurses to staff the ready opperating wards and have aborted opening another ward.

So they have lost the ability to assign nurses. This is industrial action where the nurses are too burnt out to give up another summer just because people chose not to be vaccinated.

First ambulance turned away. All the hospitals of Western Colorado and Eastern Utah have been informed to send patients to Denver or Salt Lake City (which both have plenty of idle capacity); ambulances now have a long drive.

"Elective surgeries" like a stint to prevent heart attacks are cancelled. Quads in the ICU isolated from coronavirus are for stroke, heart attacks, or injuries and will not surrender beds.

The first coronavirus ICU patient is being flown out.

This is a low population density high outdoors region. The hospital is begging the local national parks to shut down.

But not a peep in the news.

The nurses are just flat out ... saying nasty stuff about the unvaccinated. Numerous letters to have restraunts/bars close indoor dining/drinking from individuals and every local hospital were ignored.

County Jam is to be held June 24th in the hot zone.

We are, in my estimate 6 weeks behind the UK.

aerolimani wrote:

art wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

With nearly 80% of the UK population having received their first dose, the UK does not need to be introducing a new vaccine type at this time. They need to continue with second doses of the vaccine types they’ve already administered.

It’s the same with Canada not taking deliveries of J&J, even though the contract is in place, and it is one of the few approved by Health Canada. They’ve committed to exclusively Pfizer, AstraZeneca, and Moderna.

The only reason (I can think of) that the UK might purchase a new type, at this time, would be to pass it directly on to the COVAX program.

At the moment less than two thirds of the population of England has received a first jab, I don't like UK authorities pushing out figures that do not reflect the real situation: 80% of adults having received a first jab sounds better than 63% of the population having received a first jab, doesn't it?

Also, for reasons I do not understand, the number of jabs administered in England each day continues to fall. 7 day total to May 24th = 3.43 million; 7 day total to June 14th = 2.73 million. The UK government was talking of raising it to 4m a week (for the whole of the UK) not so long ago. Where did that go, I wonder.

PS And while vaccination falls, infections are growing exponentially...

My point still stands. 80% of the currently eligible eligible population has had at least one shot. Currently, they need more of the same types of vaccines as have already been administered. New types are not helpful at this time. That won’t change anytime soon unless a new vaccine is suddenly approved for under 12’s. That is not going to happen before the end of 2021.

For a R0=5-6 you need 80-84% of your entire population vaccinated with two doses to get immunity barrier to the desired level.

c933103 wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

art wrote:

At the moment less than two thirds of the population of England has received a first jab, I don't like UK authorities pushing out figures that do not reflect the real situation: 80% of adults having received a first jab sounds better than 63% of the population having received a first jab, doesn't it?

Also, for reasons I do not understand, the number of jabs administered in England each day continues to fall. 7 day total to May 24th = 3.43 million; 7 day total to June 14th = 2.73 million. The UK government was talking of raising it to 4m a week (for the whole of the UK) not so long ago. Where did that go, I wonder.

PS And while vaccination falls, infections are growing exponentially...

My point still stands. 80% of the currently eligible eligible population has had at least one shot. Currently, they need more of the same types of vaccines as have already been administered. New types are not helpful at this time. That won’t change anytime soon unless a new vaccine is suddenly approved for under 12’s. That is not going to happen before the end of 2021.

For a R0=5-6 you need 80-84% of your entire population vaccinated with two doses to get immunity barrier to the desired level.

That last 20% are covidiots who are refusing vaccines. Introducing a new type is extremely unlikely to convince them to change their minds. This isn’t flavours of ice cream.

c933103 wrote:

For a R0=5-6 you need 80-84% of your entire population vaccinated with two doses to get immunity barrier to the desired level.

In crude numbers I am under the impression that the alpha variant is >50% more infectious than the first novel coronavirus and delta is >50% more infectious than the alpha variant, so we are looking at one person infected with delta spreading the virus to far more people than the 'original'. In UK we have 30+% of the population with no immunity conferred by vaccination or previous infection. We are the guinea pigs to show what delta does in a partially protected population. Does not bode well for EU countries and US - reported daily infection rate here is up by about 300% in 3 weeks and looking to rise to about 400% in 4 weeks.

Another big wave seems to be imminent here.

aerolimani wrote:

c933103 wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

My point still stands. 80% of the currently eligible eligible population has had at least one shot. Currently, they need more of the same types of vaccines as have already been administered. New types are not helpful at this time. That won’t change anytime soon unless a new vaccine is suddenly approved for under 12’s. That is not going to happen before the end of 2021.

For a R0=5-6 you need 80-84% of your entire population vaccinated with two doses to get immunity barrier to the desired level.

That last 20% are covidiots who are refusing vaccines. Introducing a new type is extremely unlikely to convince them to change their minds. This isn’t flavours of ice cream.

Are you saying 100% need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity?? AFAIK there is no such scientific theory.

Some of the 20% will recover and some will die. Pandemic should end with or without their help if that 20% is the only issue.
That's how rapidly spreading variants end, by killing hosts faster.

My only hope, CDC's claim that there are no hospitalizations or deaths among vaccinated is valid. If there are any caveats country is in trouble.

art wrote:

c933103 wrote:

For a R0=5-6 you need 80-84% of your entire population vaccinated with two doses to get immunity barrier to the desired level.

In crude numbers I am under the impression that the alpha variant is >50% more infectious than the first novel coronavirus and delta is >50% more infectious than the alpha variant, so we are looking at one person infected with delta spreading the virus to far more people than the 'original'. In UK we have 30+% of the population with no immunity conferred by vaccination or previous infection. We are the guinea pigs to show what delta does in a partially protected population. Does not bode well for EU countries and US - reported daily infection rate here is up by about 300% in 3 weeks and looking to rise to about 400% in 4 weeks.

Another big wave seems to be imminent here.

Well, you have to look at what has happened in Chile: Dominant variant since march is, by far, gamma which is twice as contagious compared to the "original" virus.
On the other hand, 65% of population have received at least 1 shot and 47% is already inmunized, but cases and death remain high despite lockdowns and many other strong restrictions.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... try/chile/
It´s true that the main vaccine used so far is Coronovac (Sinovac) which only has ~60% efficacy in preventing sintomatic Covid, but when you look at some statistics, you see that in the past weeks 77% of new cases are people who have not started/competed their vaccination programme. This means this new variant is able to resist until it finds an unvaccinated person.
Also, look at the ages of people in ICU:

≤ 39 years old 741 23,21%
40 - 49 years old 644 20,18%
50 - 59 years old 728 22,81%
60 - 69 years old 644 20,18%
≥ 70 years old 435 13,63%
Total 3.192 100%

We really need 80% of people vaccinated to control this pandemic.

descl wrote:

art wrote:

c933103 wrote:

For a R0=5-6 you need 80-84% of your entire population vaccinated with two doses to get immunity barrier to the desired level.

In crude numbers I am under the impression that the alpha variant is >50% more infectious than the first novel coronavirus and delta is >50% more infectious than the alpha variant, so we are looking at one person infected with delta spreading the virus to far more people than the 'original'. In UK we have 30+% of the population with no immunity conferred by vaccination or previous infection. We are the guinea pigs to show what delta does in a partially protected population. Does not bode well for EU countries and US - reported daily infection rate here is up by about 300% in 3 weeks and looking to rise to about 400% in 4 weeks.

Another big wave seems to be imminent here.

Well, you have to look at what has happened in Chile: Dominant variant since march is, by far, gamma which is twice as contagious compared to the "original" virus.
On the other hand, 65% of population have received at least 1 shot and 47% is already inmunized, but cases and death remain high despite lockdowns and many other strong restrictions.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... try/chile/
It´s true that the main vaccine used so far is Coronovac (Sinovac) which only has ~60% efficacy in preventing sintomatic Covid, but when you look at some statistics, you see that in the past weeks 77% of new cases are people who have not started/competed their vaccination programme. This means this new variant is able to resist until it finds an unvaccinated person.
We really need 80% of people vaccinated to control this pandemic.

Unfortunately the 80% to 84% is likely and that means getting the children as with about 75 million of 330 million in the USA is required. Every parent knows their little bundle of joy is a plague bomb.

I worry about the exceptions too. Every time I look at data now, they play with the denominator to make the fraction vaccinated higher. With Delta and Gamma seemingly spreading amoung children, we need them vaccinated ASAP. We need everyone possible to stop variants.

Lightsaber

aerolimani wrote:

c933103 wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

My point still stands. 80% of the currently eligible eligible population has had at least one shot. Currently, they need more of the same types of vaccines as have already been administered. New types are not helpful at this time. That won’t change anytime soon unless a new vaccine is suddenly approved for under 12’s. That is not going to happen before the end of 2021.

For a R0=5-6 you need 80-84% of your entire population vaccinated with two doses to get immunity barrier to the desired level.

That last 20% are covidiots who are refusing vaccines. Introducing a new type is extremely unlikely to convince them to change their minds. This isn’t flavours of ice cream.

1. Good news is that, herd immunity count the entire community not the entire country so there can be places with higher immunity level than rest of a country
2. Bad news is that, take UK as example, 19% population are under 16, in other word you cannot achieve over 80-84% immunity level without vaccinating those kids, and there aren't much vaccines approved for such young population to use, not to mention UK government apparently isn't recommending vaccines for kids

EU AZ court case ruled on. A victory for both sides.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... NewsSearch

The world just needs more Vaccine.

c933103 wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

c933103 wrote:

For a R0=5-6 you need 80-84% of your entire population vaccinated with two doses to get immunity barrier to the desired level.

That last 20% are covidiots who are refusing vaccines. Introducing a new type is extremely unlikely to convince them to change their minds. This isn’t flavours of ice cream.

1. Good news is that, herd immunity count the entire community not the entire country so there can be places with higher immunity level than rest of a country
2. Bad news is that, take UK as example, 19% population are under 16, in other word you cannot achieve over 80-84% immunity level without vaccinating those kids, and there aren't much vaccines approved for such young population to use, not to mention UK government apparently isn't recommending vaccines for kids

Agreed there isn't much for younger. The UK is utilizing vaccines for older people, but has Pfizer for 12+ on order.

Younger in "Early Fall"
https://www.wtae.com/article/pfizer-exp ... r/36672832

This is going to last way too long.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

EU AZ court case ruled on. A victory for both sides.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... NewsSearch
.

The people in the EU which didn’t get vaccinated in time because of incompetence by AZ and became ill (or worse), are the losers…..

lightsaber wrote:

Younger in "Early Fall"
https://www.wtae.com/article/pfizer-exp ... r/36672832

This is going to last way too long.

Lightsaber

That's an improvement from when they were saying December for the under 12 demographic. Just be glad you live in the USA where you will see those vaccines for kids way sooner than MANY other parts of the world. I say take the win.

dtw2hyd wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

c933103 wrote:

For a R0=5-6 you need 80-84% of your entire population vaccinated with two doses to get immunity barrier to the desired level.

That last 20% are covidiots who are refusing vaccines. Introducing a new type is extremely unlikely to convince them to change their minds. This isn’t flavours of ice cream.

Are you saying 100% need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity?? AFAIK there is no such scientific theory.

Some of the 20% will recover and some will die. Pandemic should end with or without their help if that 20% is the only issue.
That's how rapidly spreading variants end, by killing hosts faster.

My only hope, CDC's claim that there are no hospitalizations or deaths among vaccinated is valid. If there are any caveats country is in trouble.

I was not saying that, no.

And remember… that 20% is only the percentage of those currently eligible. It doesn't include children under 12. So, the percentage of completely unvaccinated people (in the UK) is actually higher than 20%.

Also, we were discussing how people are surprised that the UK is not going to take up preexisting orders of Novavax, even though looks like it will be available soon-ish. I was saying that because there are relatively few first doses remaining to be given in the UK, at least until kids are approved, there is little point in introducing a new type. What is needed is more second dose vaccines of the original types already given. Or, in the case of those who already received AstraZeneca, there is the possibility for them to receive an mRNA vaccine for their second dose.

As to vaccinating kids, it seems likely that Pfizer and Moderna will be approved first. So, again, the UK is likely to focus on orders of those vaccines, versus waiting for Novavax to be approved for kids under 12.

aerolimani wrote:

And remember… that 20% is only the percentage of those currently eligible. It doesn't include children under 12. So, the percentage of completely unvaccinated people (in the UK) is actually higher than 20%.
As to vaccinating kids, it seems likely that Pfizer and Moderna will be approved first. So, again, the UK is likely to focus on orders of those vaccines, versus waiting for Novavax to be approved for kids under 12.

I personally wish my kid got vaccine from own pediatrician, not on a bus in school parking lot. Nothing is perfect, but let's hope will get out this mess.

aerolimani wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Younger in "Early Fall"
https://www.wtae.com/article/pfizer-exp ... r/36672832

This is going to last way too long.

Lightsaber

That's an improvement from when they were saying December for the under 12 demographic. Just be glad you live in the USA where you will see those vaccines for kids way sooner than MANY other parts of the world. I say take the win.

dtw2hyd wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

That last 20% are covidiots who are refusing vaccines. Introducing a new type is extremely unlikely to convince them to change their minds. This isn’t flavours of ice cream.

Are you saying 100% need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity?? AFAIK there is no such scientific theory.

Some of the 20% will recover and some will die. Pandemic should end with or without their help if that 20% is the only issue.
That's how rapidly spreading variants end, by killing hosts faster.

My only hope, CDC's claim that there are no hospitalizations or deaths among vaccinated is valid. If there are any caveats country is in trouble.

I was not saying that, no.

And remember… that 20% is only the percentage of those currently eligible. It doesn't include children under 12. So, the percentage of completely unvaccinated people (in the UK) is actually higher than 20%.

Also, we were discussing how people are surprised that the UK is not going to take up preexisting orders of Novavax, even though looks like it will be available soon-ish. I was saying that because there are relatively few first doses remaining to be given in the UK, at least until kids are approved, there is little point in introducing a new type. What is needed is more second dose vaccines of the original types already given. Or, in the case of those who already received AstraZeneca, there is the possibility for them to receive an mRNA vaccine for their second dose.

As to vaccinating kids, it seems likely that Pfizer and Moderna will be approved first. So, again, the UK is likely to focus on orders of those vaccines, versus waiting for Novavax to be approved for kids under 12.

I'm greedy, I want children safe now. Yes, I fully realize how lucky we are here that project warp speed worked so well.

I concur for *certain* countries introducing a new vaccine type is now worth the logistical efforts. I'm a week bit of a skeptic on Novavax, they always are two months away from greatness. I hope their production can ramp up soon in factories in the US, UK, EU, and India so that the world has more vaccine.

What we see is the strategy of many vaccines really helped.
Pfizer has exceeded all my expectations for production rate of such a complex new vaccine
Moderna has also exceeded expectations, they just didn't have the resources to get as big as fast, but they are doing very well.
AZ, we've talked to death their production issues, but they have saved many lives. We can focus on the good or bad, I choose to celebrate they're out there in quantity. I couldn't find a summary of the production, but this vaccine has been produced in the UK, EU, US, CSL (Australia?), South Korea, and India. While production misses have happened, it will be one of the major solutions to slowing this virus globally. Why did India give it a different name for local distribution?
J&J: The production mishaps have almost become legendary as the number doses that had to be destroyed dwarf those administered. It is still a major solution.
Sputnick V: A good vaccine where upthread I posted links on the production quality issues. As it goes into production elsewhere, I think it will be one of the major solutions.
Novavax: I already posted this always seems to be two months away from greatness. I hope it redeems itself.

Then the attenuated virus vaccines. I am of the opinion this virus mutates too quickly for these to be a long term solution. I posted upthread how mRNA and adrenovirus vaccines really slow transmission. (In the case of mRNA, 90% reduction in transmission and AZ might be better...)
Bharat Pharma (Covaxin). Its good enough right now and India needs every vaccine they can get.
SinoVac: We've already discussed the marginal efficacy. In Chile & Indonesia among others, it doesn't seem to slow the spread.
SinoPharm: Posted upthread how it doesn't always trigger an immune response and a 3rd dose can be required. Better than nothing, but it needs a booster like all other attenuated virus vaccines
Valneva: A later variant in the recipe, so this looks good as a booster. They are days away from commercial production per the link below.

Does anyone know what type of vaccine the Cuban vaccines are? I assume attenuated virus as those are the simplest/most known, but I do not know.

https://cyprus-mail.com/2021/01/17/valn ... pt-report/

1.54 billion doeses administered. A decent start, but about 12 billion short of the goal needed to stop this virus.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... acker.html


Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Younger in "Early Fall"
https://www.wtae.com/article/pfizer-exp ... r/36672832

This is going to last way too long.

Lightsaber

That's an improvement from when they were saying December for the under 12 demographic. Just be glad you live in the USA where you will see those vaccines for kids way sooner than MANY other parts of the world. I say take the win.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Are you saying 100% need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity?? AFAIK there is no such scientific theory.

Some of the 20% will recover and some will die. Pandemic should end with or without their help if that 20% is the only issue.
That's how rapidly spreading variants end, by killing hosts faster.

My only hope, CDC's claim that there are no hospitalizations or deaths among vaccinated is valid. If there are any caveats country is in trouble.

I was not saying that, no.

And remember… that 20% is only the percentage of those currently eligible. It doesn't include children under 12. So, the percentage of completely unvaccinated people (in the UK) is actually higher than 20%.

Also, we were discussing how people are surprised that the UK is not going to take up preexisting orders of Novavax, even though looks like it will be available soon-ish. I was saying that because there are relatively few first doses remaining to be given in the UK, at least until kids are approved, there is little point in introducing a new type. What is needed is more second dose vaccines of the original types already given. Or, in the case of those who already received AstraZeneca, there is the possibility for them to receive an mRNA vaccine for their second dose.

As to vaccinating kids, it seems likely that Pfizer and Moderna will be approved first. So, again, the UK is likely to focus on orders of those vaccines, versus waiting for Novavax to be approved for kids under 12.

I'm greedy, I want children safe now. Yes, I fully realize how lucky we are here that project warp speed worked so well.

I concur for *certain* countries introducing a new vaccine type is now worth the logistical efforts. I'm a week bit of a skeptic on Novavax, they always are two months away from greatness. I hope their production can ramp up soon in factories in the US, UK, EU, and India so that the world has more vaccine.

What we see is the strategy of many vaccines really helped.
Pfizer has exceeded all my expectations for production rate of such a complex new vaccine
Moderna has also exceeded expectations, they just didn't have the resources to get as big as fast, but they are doing very well.
AZ, we've talked to death their production issues, but they have saved many lives. We can focus on the good or bad, I choose to celebrate they're out there in quantity. I couldn't find a summary of the production, but this vaccine has been produced in the UK, EU, US, CSL (Australia?), South Korea, and India. While production misses have happened, it will be one of the major solutions to slowing this virus globally. Why did India give it a different name for local distribution?
J&J: The production mishaps have almost become legendary as the number doses that had to be destroyed dwarf those administered. It is still a major solution.
Sputnick V: A good vaccine where upthread I posted links on the production quality issues. As it goes into production elsewhere, I think it will be one of the major solutions.
Novavax: I already posted this always seems to be two months away from greatness. I hope it redeems itself.

Then the attenuated virus vaccines. I am of the opinion this virus mutates too quickly for these to be a long term solution. I posted upthread how mRNA and adrenovirus vaccines really slow transmission. (In the case of mRNA, 90% reduction in transmission and AZ might be better...)
Bharat Pharma (Covaxin). Its good enough right now and India needs every vaccine they can get.
SinoVac: We've already discussed the marginal efficacy. In Chile & Indonesia among others, it doesn't seem to slow the spread.
SinoPharm: Posted upthread how it doesn't always trigger an immune response and a 3rd dose can be required. Better than nothing, but it needs a booster like all other attenuated virus vaccines
Valneva: A later variant in the recipe, so this looks good as a booster. They are days away from commercial production per the link below.

Does anyone know what type of vaccine the Cuban vaccines are? I assume attenuated virus as those are the simplest/most known, but I do not know.

https://cyprus-mail.com/2021/01/17/valn ... pt-report/

1.54 billion doeses administered. A decent start, but about 12 billion short of the goal needed to stop this virus.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... acker.html


Lightsaber

Not greedy. Parent or not, we all want to move on from this pandemic. Only Jeff Bezos might want it to continue a while longer.

Indeed, there are a lot of positives to celebrate. A next step, for the world, I believe, is to accept each other's different vaccines as acceptable for giving the status as vaccinated. Obviously, every vaccine has a time limit. So, perhaps for some of the less effective vaccines, a shorter time limit could be the differing factor. But, the world is going to stay very closed if their isn't greater international acceptance for all vaccines.

As to the attenuated virus vaccines, indeed they are still of value, even for COVID-19, even if not for the long term. Influenza mutates much more quickly than coronaviruses, and yet the solution for many years has been annual attenuated virus vaccines. Though hopefully, better influenza viruses, with broader and longer lasting effectiveness, can be developed in the future using newer technologies. Hopefully, the COVID-19 attenuated virus vaccines can ultimately be phased out in favour of more effective vaccines.

As to Cuba, the two best candidates are Soberana 2, and ABDALA. The most recent report I could find says Soberana 2 is a recombinant protein vaccine. The other Cuba vaccine furthest along is the Abdala vaccine. According to wiki, it is a protein subunit vaccine.

This article, the one referred to in wiki, is the most detailed report I've found about the Cuban vaccine: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/latamcaribbean/ ... d-mambisa/

Regarding vaccination offerering protection for a limited time, I saw a video in which an English doctor referred to some research in which cells relating to SARS antibody production were detected in the bone marrow of a number of people who had been infected with the SARS virus some 17 years earlier. Just in case it has not been posted, this from NYT also mentions

Upon first encountering a virus, B cells rapidly proliferate and produce antibodies in large amounts. Once the acute infection is resolved, a small number of the cells take up residence in the bone marrow, steadily pumping out modest levels of antibodies.

To look at memory B cells specific to the new coronavirus, researchers led by Ali Ellebedy of Washington University in St. Louis analyzed blood from 77 people at three-month intervals, starting about a month after their infection with the coronavirus. Only six of the 77 had been hospitalized for Covid-19; the rest had mild symptoms.

Antibody levels in these individuals dropped rapidly four months after infection and continued to decline slowly for months afterward — results that are in line with those from other studies.

Some scientists have interpreted this decrease as a sign of waning immunity, but it is exactly what’s expected, other experts said. If blood contained high quantities of antibodies to every pathogen the body had ever encountered, it would quickly transform into a thick sludge.

Instead, blood levels of antibodies fall sharply following acute infection, while memory B cells remain quiescent in the bone marrow, ready to take action when needed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/26/heal ... cines.html

Is it starting to look likely that the body retains an ability to defend itself from COVID-19 long term after the immune system has been activated against it (without the need for booster vaccination at short intervals)?

aerolimani wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

That's an improvement from when they were saying December for the under 12 demographic. Just be glad you live in the USA where you will see those vaccines for kids way sooner than MANY other parts of the world. I say take the win.


I was not saying that, no.

And remember… that 20% is only the percentage of those currently eligible. It doesn't include children under 12. So, the percentage of completely unvaccinated people (in the UK) is actually higher than 20%.

Also, we were discussing how people are surprised that the UK is not going to take up preexisting orders of Novavax, even though looks like it will be available soon-ish. I was saying that because there are relatively few first doses remaining to be given in the UK, at least until kids are approved, there is little point in introducing a new type. What is needed is more second dose vaccines of the original types already given. Or, in the case of those who already received AstraZeneca, there is the possibility for them to receive an mRNA vaccine for their second dose.

As to vaccinating kids, it seems likely that Pfizer and Moderna will be approved first. So, again, the UK is likely to focus on orders of those vaccines, versus waiting for Novavax to be approved for kids under 12.

I'm greedy, I want children safe now. Yes, I fully realize how lucky we are here that project warp speed worked so well.

I concur for *certain* countries introducing a new vaccine type is now worth the logistical efforts. I'm a week bit of a skeptic on Novavax, they always are two months away from greatness. I hope their production can ramp up soon in factories in the US, UK, EU, and India so that the world has more vaccine.

What we see is the strategy of many vaccines really helped.
Pfizer has exceeded all my expectations for production rate of such a complex new vaccine
Moderna has also exceeded expectations, they just didn't have the resources to get as big as fast, but they are doing very well.
AZ, we've talked to death their production issues, but they have saved many lives. We can focus on the good or bad, I choose to celebrate they're out there in quantity. I couldn't find a summary of the production, but this vaccine has been produced in the UK, EU, US, CSL (Australia?), South Korea, and India. While production misses have happened, it will be one of the major solutions to slowing this virus globally. Why did India give it a different name for local distribution?
J&J: The production mishaps have almost become legendary as the number doses that had to be destroyed dwarf those administered. It is still a major solution.
Sputnick V: A good vaccine where upthread I posted links on the production quality issues. As it goes into production elsewhere, I think it will be one of the major solutions.
Novavax: I already posted this always seems to be two months away from greatness. I hope it redeems itself.

Then the attenuated virus vaccines. I am of the opinion this virus mutates too quickly for these to be a long term solution. I posted upthread how mRNA and adrenovirus vaccines really slow transmission. (In the case of mRNA, 90% reduction in transmission and AZ might be better...)
Bharat Pharma (Covaxin). Its good enough right now and India needs every vaccine they can get.
SinoVac: We've already discussed the marginal efficacy. In Chile & Indonesia among others, it doesn't seem to slow the spread.
SinoPharm: Posted upthread how it doesn't always trigger an immune response and a 3rd dose can be required. Better than nothing, but it needs a booster like all other attenuated virus vaccines
Valneva: A later variant in the recipe, so this looks good as a booster. They are days away from commercial production per the link below.

Does anyone know what type of vaccine the Cuban vaccines are? I assume attenuated virus as those are the simplest/most known, but I do not know.

https://cyprus-mail.com/2021/01/17/valn ... pt-report/

1.54 billion doeses administered. A decent start, but about 12 billion short of the goal needed to stop this virus.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... acker.html


Lightsaber

Not greedy. Parent or not, we all want to move on from this pandemic. Only Jeff Bezos might want it to continue a while longer.

Indeed, there are a lot of positives to celebrate. A next step, for the world, I believe, is to accept each other's different vaccines as acceptable for giving the status as vaccinated. Obviously, every vaccine has a time limit. So, perhaps for some of the less effective vaccines, a shorter time limit could be the differing factor. But, the world is going to stay very closed if their isn't greater international acceptance for all vaccines.

As to the attenuated virus vaccines, indeed they are still of value, even for COVID-19, even if not for the long term. Influenza mutates much more quickly than coronaviruses, and yet the solution for many years has been annual attenuated virus vaccines. Though hopefully, better influenza viruses, with broader and longer lasting effectiveness, can be developed in the future using newer technologies. Hopefully, the COVID-19 attenuated virus vaccines can ultimately be phased out in favour of more effective vaccines.

As to Cuba, the two best candidates are Soberana 2, and ABDALA. The most recent report I could find says Soberana 2 is a recombinant protein vaccine. The other Cuba vaccine furthest along is the Abdala vaccine. According to wiki, it is a protein subunit vaccine.

This article, the one referred to in wiki, is the most detailed report I've found about the Cuban vaccine: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/latamcaribbean/ ... d-mambisa/

Thanks for the information.

It is very political on which are being accepted, unfortunately. However, there are public health reasons to attenuated virus vaccines as they will have more breakthroughs and do far less to slow transmission.

If everyone was Vaccinated, they would be good enough. But that is not the case and won't be. I do not know the solution other than to offer a booster at immigration.

Lightsaber

https://news.now.com/home/local/player? ... efer=Share
Because only 30% elder home and care facility employee in Hong Kong are vaccinated, the Hong Kong government is enacting the following measures to try to increase vaccination rate:
- Unvaccinates employees will be required to conduct virus tests every 10 days, instead of 14 days by now.
- Subsidy for carrying out virus tests will be terminated and employees will now need to pay for the testing themselves.
- Further shortening of testing period to virus test every 7 days are under study
- The government have also considered banning testing with saliva sample and require the use of the less sensitive but more intrusive swab test for virus testing among these employees
- And the money will instead go to vaccinated staff

Anecdotal positive news from India's vaccine campaign. One state administered 47% of all doses in a day. 1.3 Million. Probably a single day mass vaccine campaign, but shows it can be done.

https://twitter.com/vunnamatla/status/1 ... 92/photo/1

dtw2hyd wrote:

Anecdotal positive news from India's vaccine campaign. One state administered 47% of all doses in a day. 1.3 Million. Probably a single day mass vaccine campaign, but shows it can be done.

https://twitter.com/vunnamatla/status/1 ... 92/photo/1

Good news, but India must get the overall vaccination rate up a lot. At .26 doses per hundred, that is two years to vaccinate the whole population. I hope we can get ingredients to India so they can make enough vaccine for themselves as well as export 25% to 35% of the produced vaccine again as India should be supplying the world (they have the big vaccine factories, although many new ones in EU and USA).
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/dail ... per-capita

I wish there were better links on vaccine production. It is hit or miss to find the true production rate.

Lightsaber

Braybuddy wrote:

I love the way the Russian Sputnik V vacciine was rolled out ahead of all the others, but nothing was said about its efficacy. Now that that the Pfizer vaccine has been claimed to be 90 per cent effective, the Russians suddenly come out with figures:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/11/ ... ata-a72012

The Lancet gave it a 92% efficacy rate

fallap wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

I love the way the Russian Sputnik V vacciine was rolled out ahead of all the others, but nothing was said about its efficacy. Now that that the Pfizer vaccine has been claimed to be 90 per cent effective, the Russians suddenly come out with figures:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/11/ ... ata-a72012

The Lancet gave it a 92% efficacy rate

We all need to remember that it is not possible to draw any accurate conclusions from comparing one vaccine's studies to those of another vaccine. Each vaccine has been studied in different locations and at different times. There are genetic and cultural factors, environmental and climactic factors, differences in public health measures, and genetic differences in the virus. All of these can very much affect the outcome of a study. Unless every vaccine could be studied in the same place and time, accurate comparisons cannot be made between vaccines.

What is your opinion regarding vaccinating children against Covid-19? Wouldn't it be better to vaccinate the adults and those at risk without subjecting the kids to a vaccine they don't need?

FYI I'm not an antiwaxer at all (go Team Johnson!) But the suggestion to vaccinate children in Denmark has been heavily criticized by pediatricians here.

fallap wrote:

What is your opinion regarding vaccinating children against Covid-19? Wouldn't it be better to vaccinate the adults and those at risk without subjecting the kids to a vaccine they don't need?

FYI I'm not an antiwaxer at all (go Team Johnson!) But the suggestion to vaccinate children in Denmark has been heavily criticized by pediatricians here.

Children catch COVID-19, don't they? It may result in less disease and death in them than COVID-19 occasions in adults but infected children infect others and so sustain the epidemic. Why do you think that children do not need to be prevented from being infectors of others?

art wrote:

fallap wrote:

What is your opinion regarding vaccinating children against Covid-19? Wouldn't it be better to vaccinate the adults and those at risk without subjecting the kids to a vaccine they don't need?

FYI I'm not an antiwaxer at all (go Team Johnson!) But the suggestion to vaccinate children in Denmark has been heavily criticized by pediatricians here.

Children catch COVID-19, don't they? It may result in less disease and death in them than COVID-19 occasions in adults but infected children infect others and so sustain the epidemic. Why do you think that children do not need to be prevented from being infectors of others?

I would like to stress that I did not say that children do not catch Covid-19 but merely that their risk of experiencing any serious symptoms are very slim. If children are going to be the last ones vaccinated then there shouldn't be anyone left to infect. The debate began when medical experts voiced doubts about the Government's suggestion to vaccinate children in Denmark as well, as it remains unclear whether the potential disadvantage of giving children the Covid-19 vaccine outweighs the benefits or not. One of the ethical issues is the morality of giving a young person a vaccine that could potentially harm them by side effects in order to protect them against a virus that is of no threat to them. The long term effetcs of the vaccine remains unknown, and as such it would be wise to use a certain degree of caution before we vaccine left and right. The cases of people vaccinated against Swine Flue suffering from Narcolepsy come to mind.

fallap wrote:

What is your opinion regarding vaccinating children against Covid-19? Wouldn't it be better to vaccinate the adults and those at risk without subjecting the kids to a vaccine they don't need?

FYI I'm not an antiwaxer at all (go Team Johnson!) But the suggestion to vaccinate children in Denmark has been heavily criticized by pediatricians here.

I really want my younger child vaccinated. My relative is a doctor in a coronavirus ward and quite a few children have lung scaring. They will never be athletes (some were before). Kids do need a vaccine and they need it now.

If the adults were willing, all else being equal, vaccinating them would be better. But here is the USA, they refuse, so vaccinate the kids. The reality is, production is getting so high, vaccine hesitancy is going to be the problem mid-July for the Western world, not vaccine supply (until then, many Western countries will be supply constrained).

The pediatricians I know want kids vaccinated, however the ones I know want a complete study. If I could vaccinate my child today with the adult dose, I would, no hesitation. Now, no doctor would do that, of course. But if it were allowed, I would.

This is obviously skewed by the fact I have long haul coronavirus side effects (from the virus, the vaccine was a non-issue). I would never want my children to have them. Ok, mine are minor, but I'll never taste fat again (e.g., bacon went from awsome to "why bother." I had a cake to celebrate father's day, but it just isn't the same when you cannot taste the cream. It was trivially easy to turn down slice #2 while before I never would turn the second slice down.)

A huge fraction of even the asymptomatic get long haul symptoms. So I want all the kids vaccinated:
https://www.modernhealthcare.com/clinic ... l-symptoms

But I agree, if the choice is give one dose to an adult or one to a child, give it to the adult (unless the child has cancer or something, I assume the high priority have been vaccinated). With many countries will have no choice but to vaccinate children early due to the local anti-vax sentiment. Interest charts (not all countries available) on who is willing to get a jab:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covi ... BR~USA~NLD

Although my impression is many of the "unvaccinated but willing to get vaccinated" aren't really willing to get vaccinated. So as much as I dislike mandates, they are coming. We'll have them at (some) colleges, medical facilities, and I'm fairly certain my workplace come the fall (but that is just my opinion).

Lightsaber

Late edit: The UK is better vaccinated than the USA, but is seeing cases double every 11 days. While I haven't been to the UK, my first impression is they are slightly better locked down than we are (but that could just be because I see how badly behaving it is in Colorado and California).
https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/covid ... udy-finds/

lightsaber wrote:

If I could vaccinate my child today with the adult dose, I would, no hesitation. Now, no doctor would do that, of course. But if it were allowed, I would.

Only way is to be part of a trial, that also assuming you kid will be part of the control group.

I was looking at detailed vaccination data by age group and date, fascinated to find there were occasional 12-16 doses, well before it was announced, going back to Jan '21. Could be data error.

In Hong Kong, where the two vaccines available are Pfizer and Sinovac, a study has found a 'substancial' difference in antibody levels in people vaccinated with one vs the other. Those who got the BioNtech vaccine generally have much higher antibody levels than those who got the Sinovac...

It appears in line with the observed lower efficacy of the attenuated virus vaccines, though experts do stress that low antibody count does not mean no protection.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hea ... e-stronger

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4225435
As Taiwan have difficulty in securing sufficient vaccines from foreign source, they are accelerating domestic vaccine research and development efforts, and the Taiwanese government intended to accept immunobridging instead of traditional clinical trial for phase three study, with an added requirement that the group such test to be conducted on need to be sufficiently large. However, there are now report that, contrary to EMA and KFDA position of tendency to accept such practice, US FDA is reportedly more reserved, which mean that people receiving such vaccines are unlikely to get recognition from US in addition to a number of other countries which would act based on FDA information, and be potentially trapped outside those countries. Such position have also renewed controversy in Taiwan on whether the immunobridging is a proper replacement to traditional phase 3 clinical test and can this prove the domestic vaccines to be safe and efficient.

Seven boys ages 14 to 19 suffered from a very rare type of heart inflammation that looks like a heart attack. It’s one that public health officials are beginning to link to COVID-19 vaccines.

https://twitter.com/KEYTNC3/status/1405 ... 77388?s=20

The jab is mostly safe then.

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Seven boys ages 14 to 19 suffered from a very rare type of heart inflammation that looks like a heart attack. It’s one that public health officials are beginning to link to COVID-19 vaccines.

https://twitter.com/KEYTNC3/status/1405 ... 77388?s=20

The jab is mostly safe then.

CDC supposed to discuss on this during 6/18 meeting. Happily rescheduled to 6/22-23 because Juneteenth holiday. No rush.

dtw2hyd wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Seven boys ages 14 to 19 suffered from a very rare type of heart inflammation that looks like a heart attack. It’s one that public health officials are beginning to link to COVID-19 vaccines.

https://twitter.com/KEYTNC3/status/1405 ... 77388?s=20

The jab is mostly safe then.

CDC supposed to discuss on this during 6/18 meeting. Happily rescheduled to 6/22-23 because Juneteenth holiday. No rush.

My relative's hospital had one teenage boy die of coronavirus and 3 more are so dire the doctors think they will die (recall, it usually takes 5 to 9 weeks to die if coronavirus).

This is a risk assessment.

My relative had to turn away ambulances. What did management do? They delayed updating metrics until they could send a convoy of ambulances to Denver.

Every indication I see us more risk to the young from Delta.

In my opinion, Country Jam this weekend will be a superspreader event. Oh, not the outdoor concert, but the packed shuttle busses to/from the 28 hotels, restaurants, and in particular bars.

Oh, it will take from around the 26th of July to mid-August to wake up to the spread, but in my opinion the local authorities to return to normal in a 40% vaccinated county. At least the concert will have a vaccination bus.

https://coloradosun.com/2021/06/21/coro ... ccination/

The coronavirus dashboard for the county:
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

People seem unable to understand a time delay and exponential math. This is a virus with a Ro of over 5. Every large pocket will get hit. But later July to mid-August.

At that point, people will wish they were vaccinated.
. Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

In my opinion, Country Jam this weekend will be a superspreader event. Oh, not the outdoor concert, but the packed shuttle busses to/from the 28 hotels, restaurants, and in particular bars.

Oh, it will take from around the 26th of July to mid-August to wake up to the spread, but in my opinion the local authorities to return to normal in a 40% vaccinated county. At least the concert will have a vaccination bus.

https://coloradosun.com/2021/06/21/coro ... ccination/

The coronavirus dashboard for the county:
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

People seem unable to understand a time delay and exponential math. This is a virus with a Ro of over 5. Every large pocket will get hit. But later July to mid-August.

At that point, people will wish they were vaccinated.
. Lightsaber

Good thing is that some people may use the vaccination bus thinking that vaccination will protect them from the high risk of getting infected at the jam. It won't but even so, their misapprehension got them vaccinated. If they don't catch it at the jam, they will be better protected than if they had not gone to the jam!

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/byline/kutsuna ... -00243916/
A doctor in Japan mentioned possibility of long term safety risk of corona vaccines
- Long-term side effects of vaccines exceeding a few weeks are extremely rare, and till now scientific validation have rejected what was previously suspected to be long-term side effect of various vaccines
- mRNA would break down in body in a matter of days, and spike protein being made will also be broken down within two weeks, hence side effect over a year after vaccination is not anticipated
- Although mRNA vacvines for novel coronavirus is new, researchers have spent decades researching mRNA vaccines for various viruses, and mRNA have also been used in cancer treatment studies, in these researchers no long term side effect have been confirmed
- Report from the US indicate sperm count of men didn't decrease following vaccinations, and pregnant women receiving the vaccine also didn't have higher than average risk of abnormality or miscarriage
- While it still isn't possible to say vaccines are 100% safe long term, monitoring and transparency in announcing result of monitoring and investigation are necessary. But given the known benefit compared to the baseless doubt on the vaccine's long term safety, being too worried by such possibility could endanger one and individuals should make their own judgement after considering the merits and demerits properly.

Israel seeing two sets of cases in schools. Shifting recommendation for 12-15 year old to recommend Vaccine.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/is ... NewsSearch

art wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

In my opinion, Country Jam this weekend will be a superspreader event. Oh, not the outdoor concert, but the packed shuttle busses to/from the 28 hotels, restaurants, and in particular bars.

Oh, it will take from around the 26th of July to mid-August to wake up to the spread, but in my opinion the local authorities to return to normal in a 40% vaccinated county. At least the concert will have a vaccination bus.

https://coloradosun.com/2021/06/21/coro ... ccination/

The coronavirus dashboard for the county:
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

People seem unable to understand a time delay and exponential math. This is a virus with a Ro of over 5. Every large pocket will get hit. But later July to mid-August.

At that point, people will wish they were vaccinated.
. Lightsaber

Good thing is that some people may use the vaccination bus thinking that vaccination will protect them from the high risk of getting infected at the jam. It won't but even so, their misapprehension got them vaccinated. If they don't catch it at the jam, they will be better protected than if they had not gone to the jam!

The few who use the bus are better off. The rest... no.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Seven boys ages 14 to 19 suffered from a very rare type of heart inflammation that looks like a heart attack. It’s one that public health officials are beginning to link to COVID-19 vaccines.

https://twitter.com/KEYTNC3/status/1405 ... 77388?s=20

The jab is mostly safe then.

CDC supposed to discuss on this during 6/18 meeting. Happily rescheduled to 6/22-23 because Juneteenth holiday. No rush.

My relative's hospital had one teenage boy die of coronavirus and 3 more are so dire the doctors think they will die (recall, it usually takes 5 to 9 weeks to die if coronavirus).

This is a risk assessment.

My relative had to turn away ambulances. What did management do? They delayed updating metrics until they could send a convoy of ambulances to Denver.

Every indication I see us more risk to the young from Delta.

In my opinion, Country Jam this weekend will be a superspreader event. Oh, not the outdoor concert, but the packed shuttle busses to/from the 28 hotels, restaurants, and in particular bars.

Oh, it will take from around the 26th of July to mid-August to wake up to the spread, but in my opinion the local authorities to return to normal in a 40% vaccinated county. At least the concert will have a vaccination bus.

https://coloradosun.com/2021/06/21/coro ... ccination/

The coronavirus dashboard for the county:
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

People seem unable to understand a time delay and exponential math. This is a virus with a Ro of over 5. Every large pocket will get hit. But later July to mid-August.

At that point, people will wish they were vaccinated.
. Lightsaber

I hope no parents are waiting on CDC guidance to get their kids vaccinated. I haven't seen 12-16 vaccination rates. Hope numbers are good. Five weeks before school opening every kid should get their first jab to have solid immunity walking into class rooms this fall.

I personally don't like CDC attitude towards this or resolving VAERS in general. If there are false entries there should be legal action.

When AZ had blood clots, UK and EU regulators quickly studied available data and provided some direction, not perfect but people can make their own risk assessment.

https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXZQOUE ... 0C2000000/
While Japan is driving group vaccinations at offices and campuses, the government now say they do not recommend doing so in middle school or high school unless individual vaccination cannot be arranged, as they peer pressure would press one into getting the vaccine, and cite difficulty in securing medical professionals in case of side effect. In case group vaccination are needed as individual vaccinations are hard to arrange, it is urged, to avoid discriminating against non vaccine takers and to avoid making it feel mandatory to take the vaccine, schools are urged to first obtain consent from guardians, conduct vaccinations after school or on day off, and do not make vaccine required for participating on school activities/events.


https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXZQOUE ... 0C2000000/
In Japan, "vaccine harrassment" have developed in some workplaces, where employees are being pressured into accepting the vaccine or to quit the job. The article emphasis that vaccination is personal choice not duty and companies dthat aren't giving proper consideration to this risk breaching the law

c933103 wrote:

https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXZQOUE220VD0S1A620C2000000/
While Japan is driving group vaccinations at offices and campuses, the government now say they do not recommend doing so in middle school or high school unless individual vaccination cannot be arranged, as they peer pressure would press one into getting the vaccine, and cite difficulty in securing medical professionals in case of side effect. In case group vaccination are needed as individual vaccinations are hard to arrange, it is urged, to avoid discriminating against non vaccine takers and to avoid making it feel mandatory to take the vaccine, schools are urged to first obtain consent from guardians, conduct vaccinations after school or on day off, and do not make vaccine required for participating on school activities/events.


https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXZQOUE ... 0C2000000/
In Japan, "vaccine harrassment" have developed in some workplaces, where employees are being pressured into accepting the vaccine or to quit the job. The article emphasis that vaccination is personal choice not duty and companies dthat aren't giving proper consideration to this risk breaching the law

The article might emphasize that but lines between duty and personal choice are often crossed in Japanese companies. For example, transferring employees to cities they don't want to live in happens all the time. Rules about the vaccine are no different, as Japanese companies often have strict codes for not only dress, but also internet and other off-work conduct.

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXZQOUE220VD0S1A620C2000000/
While Japan is driving group vaccinations at offices and campuses, the government now say they do not recommend doing so in middle school or high school unless individual vaccination cannot be arranged, as they peer pressure would press one into getting the vaccine, and cite difficulty in securing medical professionals in case of side effect. In case group vaccination are needed as individual vaccinations are hard to arrange, it is urged, to avoid discriminating against non vaccine takers and to avoid making it feel mandatory to take the vaccine, schools are urged to first obtain consent from guardians, conduct vaccinations after school or on day off, and do not make vaccine required for participating on school activities/events.


https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXZQOUE ... 0C2000000/
In Japan, "vaccine harrassment" have developed in some workplaces, where employees are being pressured into accepting the vaccine or to quit the job. The article emphasis that vaccination is personal choice not duty and companies dthat aren't giving proper consideration to this risk breaching the law

The article might emphasize that but lines between duty and personal choice are often crossed in Japanese companies. For example, transferring employees to cities they don't want to live in happens all the time. Rules about the vaccine are no different, as Japanese companies often have strict codes for not only dress, but also internet and other off-work conduct.

It is because there are such culture in Japanese companies that the article need to emphasize that

c933103 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXZQOUE220VD0S1A620C2000000/
While Japan is driving group vaccinations at offices and campuses, the government now say they do not recommend doing so in middle school or high school unless individual vaccination cannot be arranged, as they peer pressure would press one into getting the vaccine, and cite difficulty in securing medical professionals in case of side effect. In case group vaccination are needed as individual vaccinations are hard to arrange, it is urged, to avoid discriminating against non vaccine takers and to avoid making it feel mandatory to take the vaccine, schools are urged to first obtain consent from guardians, conduct vaccinations after school or on day off, and do not make vaccine required for participating on school activities/events.


https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXZQOUE ... 0C2000000/
In Japan, "vaccine harrassment" have developed in some workplaces, where employees are being pressured into accepting the vaccine or to quit the job. The article emphasis that vaccination is personal choice not duty and companies dthat aren't giving proper consideration to this risk breaching the law

The article might emphasize that but lines between duty and personal choice are often crossed in Japanese companies. For example, transferring employees to cities they don't want to live in happens all the time. Rules about the vaccine are no different, as Japanese companies often have strict codes for not only dress, but also internet and other off-work conduct.

It is because there are such culture in Japanese companies that the article need to emphasize that

They can emphasize all they like, it won't change that local labor standards boards 'investigate' employee claims all the time but don't have teeth to enforce anything except in the case of punishing whistleblowers. The other route is lawsuit, but the process is lengthy and the average Japanese company employee doesn't have the patience or financial reserves to commit to a 5-6 year court battle against a company.

The more serious COVID-related labor issue in Japan at the moment is overworked medical staff and the number of RNs who have vacated positions - they are very difficult to replace as there was a nursing shortage long before COVID arrived.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... you-jailed
Amid vaccine hesitancy, the president of the Philippines, Duterte, indicate he will jail people who aren't taking the vaccine

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

The article might emphasize that but lines between duty and personal choice are often crossed in Japanese companies. For example, transferring employees to cities they don't want to live in happens all the time. Rules about the vaccine are no different, as Japanese companies often have strict codes for not only dress, but also internet and other off-work conduct.

It is because there are such culture in Japanese companies that the article need to emphasize that

They can emphasize all they like, it won't change that local labor standards boards 'investigate' employee claims all the time but don't have teeth to enforce anything except in the case of punishing whistleblowers. The other route is lawsuit, but the process is lengthy and the average Japanese company employee doesn't have the patience or financial reserves to commit to a 5-6 year court battle against a company.

The more serious COVID-related labor issue in Japan at the moment is overworked medical staff and the number of RNs who have vacated positions - they are very difficult to replace as there was a nursing shortage long before COVID arrived.

I can only discuss anecdotally, but in the USA nurses are refusing assignments to coronavirus wards and have ready resignation letters. The vaccinated nurses see too many unvaccinated patients who just aren't worth giving up vacations again and unvaccinated nurses obviously do not want to work the wards.

40% of Colorado cases are now Delta:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... NewsSearch

Lightsaber

Israel's opening is seeing vaccine breakthrough. 9 fully vaccinated teacher (seems to be unmasked classes, that is how I interpreted it).

I look at it this way, the level of exposure definitely determines how bad the case. I'm sure a high viral load, such as in an unmasked classroom, will create issues.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/is ... uxbndlbing

The vaccine truck has its 2nd and 3rd visit planned at my work. There is no excuse at this point. It is like Baskin Robbins, they're coming with multiple flavors: J&J, Moderna, and Pfizer.

All employees, contractors, and their families welcome... And yet so many are not vaccinated.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

The vaccine truck has its 2nd and 3rd visit planned at my work. There is no excuse at this point. It is like Baskin Robbins, they're coming with multiple flavors: J&J, Moderna, and Pfizer.

All employees, contractors, and their families welcome... And yet so many are not vaccinated.

Lightsaber

It's so frustrating to hear that, while I sit here waiting another 5+ weeks for my second dose, and while first shots in other other parts of the world are still many months away, if not longer. For people to have such privilege and reject it is incomprehensible.

(I had my first shot at the beginning of June)

Dutch situation (and I am sure the situation in much of Western Europe). Since Saturday everybody >18 can make an appointment, and since today also children between 12-18 with conditions. If one makes an appointment today the appointment waiting time would be 14-18 days. Currently, 53.4% has had a first shot and ~30% both (Ourworldindata always has data a week old so that is why it seems lower). Currently, first doses rise by ~0.8% per day, we seem to be on track to reach anywhere between 65-70% first doses in the next 15-20 days, which would translate to 80% - 86% uptake among adults, not bad. Already plans are being made to vaccinate in lagging parts of the country (mostly religious or migration), lotteries, vaccination buses, contact with local religious leaders, pop-up vaccines that stuff. Currently, we only use Pfizer and Moderna, AZ is not used and anymore, Janssen will be available by choice from tomorrow (dubbed the holiday vaccine as it gives protection in 4 weeks).

Must say the vaccination passport inside the EU gives a push for a lot of vaccine-hesitant (so not the super anti-vaxxers). Holidays are what guns are for Americans, so the promise that traveling is no problem when fully vaccinated motivates a lot of people. Also, bigger events where 6feet/1.5m is not a possibility are possible from 26th of June (parties/ festivals, other big gatherings), you either have to tested (48h or less beforehand) or be fully vaccinated for entry, testing is free till everybody has had the chance to get vaccinated.

Health advisers are very worried about Delta which could become dominant as soon as half July. We hope to "out-vaccinate"-Delta but may see an uptake somewhere next month (currently -35% w/w). More worrisome may be autumn/winter when the season effect is against us, seems like we are already being prepared for possible closing of the biggest risk factors this winter.