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chimborazo
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:50 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
chimborazo wrote:
...
I do hope others who are hesitant see situation like this and think again about taking the vaccine. Not because I care whether they live or die or have long term health problems from covid (their choice, live -or die - with the consequence of that choice) but because they are then much more likely to become a burden on the health system and are at higher risk of spreading the virus than vaccinated people.


I agree this is the prevailing logic going around but it is fundamentally flawed.

You cannot put your health or state of health system in a group of selfish people. On top give them no-mask freedom to spread virus more rapidly.

A Canadian academician did a theoretical model on just vaccines(99% efficacy 70% population), just non-pharma mitigations and both.

Even if she an alarmist and this is just a theoretical model, it is something every one to consider.

https://twitter.com/GosiaGasperoPhD/sta ... 63/photo/2



I still wear a mask in public places (not when suitably spaced outside) and when not at my desk at work (where 2 days after the opening up, company decided they would retain this mask rule) not just for my protection but in case I have been infected. It’s still not clear how effective masks are against passing on/contracting Covid but it really doesn’t hurt to wear one in limited situations. I think it’s insane that in the UK we have already removed the legal obligation to wear masks in close contact/public transport settings. Even if they’re only 20% effective for example, that’s still a significant effect on potential transmission.
 
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Aesma
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:15 pm

In France with the rise of vaccinations following the imposition of a "sanitary passport", there were fears we would run out of vaccines, however Moderna will cover the shortfall. I wonder how the UK will vaccinate the young since they don't have enough Pfizer and don't seem to have ordered the Moderna.

millions of doses received per week :
Image

Chemist wrote:
It's pretty clear that if you want to be careful, you wear mask indoors except in your home.


Well no. Masks are for protecting others, remember ? If you want to be careful, you need to force everyone around to wear a mask.

That's the big problem and why this "flip-flopping" happens, not just in the US but everywhere.

flyguy89 wrote:
Chemist wrote:
USA Today article:

'I'm sorry, but it's too late' - unvaccinated patients beg for shot; here comes the lambda variant: COVID news

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/hea ... 035920002/

Sad quote:
"Dr. Brytney Cobia, a hospitalist at Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham, wrote in a recent Facebook post she is treating a lot of young, otherwise healthy people for serious coronavirus infections.

"One of the last things they do before they're intubated is beg me for the vaccine," she wrote. "I hold their hand and tell them that I'm sorry, but it's too late."

I saw this headline floating around today, and I’m raising my BS flag. Very much doubt that happened at all. I’m very pro-vax, but I’ve seen too many stories like these eventually come out as false or made up.


Most antivax people have a limited understanding of what a vaccine is to say the least, so why would it be surprising for some of them to ask for it when they're in hospital dying from the virus ?
 
Chemist
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:33 am

Aesma wrote:

Chemist wrote:
It's pretty clear that if you want to be careful, you wear mask indoors except in your home.


Well no. Masks are for protecting others, remember ? If you want to be careful, you need to force everyone around to wear a mask.

That's the big problem and why this "flip-flopping" happens, not just in the US but everywhere.



You're right, but I am too - I just failed to add the context that the mask I'M wearing is an N95. I've already posted how ridiculous it is that over a year after the start of the pandemic, we aren't being asked to wear N95/KN95/FFP2(?) or equivalent. Those masks do protect the wearer. There is also some evidence that wearing lesser masks still offers some protection to the wearer as well, although nowhere near perfect.
 
flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:41 am

Aesma wrote:
Most antivax people have a limited understanding of what a vaccine is to say the least, so why would it be surprising for some of them to ask for it when they're in hospital dying from the virus ?

I don’t doubt their general lack of understanding as to how vaccines work, I just doubt the veracity of the story itself for the fact that I’ve seen too many of these second-hand cautionary tale stories come out as false…I believe the last one was from Texas where the headline that went viral was something like "Covid-denier who went out and partied final dying words: I should have taken the virus seriously.” Only it later came out that that never happened, no such patient existed and the nurse interviewed later backtracked that she never personally witnessed anything like that, but was rather meaning to describe how other nurses felt. Perhaps the above-referenced story is true, but I’ve just learned to be generally skeptical these types of stories that too perfectly fit.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:18 am

Some French health workers resent, resist mandatory vaccines

https://apnews.com/article/government-a ... 7380d2deb2

The law, adopted by parliament early Monday, also sets up a “health pass” for everyone in order to access restaurants and other public venues. Both measures have prompted intense debate and two straight weekends of protests around France. Health care workers in white coats have been among the demonstrators.

France has faced medical scandals in recent decades involving vaccines, diet pills and breast implants that have seeded doubts about the medical establishment. Suspicion of big pharmaceutical companies is relatively common, and politicians on both the extreme right and the left are now fueling that skepticism for their own ends.

At one Paris protest, some carried signs reading “My body, my choice.” “I’m here today in favor of the freedom to chose to get vaccinated or not,” she said.

I never knew that France were Trump Supporters and wanted such personal freedom. Who knew???
 
JJJ
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:26 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:

I never knew that France were Trump Supporters and wanted such personal freedom. Who knew???


That's Mr. Philippot there on the picture.

The man that left Le Pen's party and built his own because the FN went too soft and mainstream.
 
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Aesma
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:28 am

Yeah in the US he would be called a communist considering his economic positions.

Using "pro-choice" slogans is definitely something coming from the US though, since here there is virtually no debate about abortion, it is easy to get, and free, since the 70's.
 
JJJ
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:43 am

Aesma wrote:
Using "pro-choice" slogans is definitely something coming from the US though, since here there is virtually no debate about abortion, it is easy to get, and free, since the 70's.


The populist right in Europe has been cross-pollinating with the likes of Steve Bannon for a long time.

They seem to be distancing themselves at the present, though. Bit of a toxic legacy.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:23 pm

Chemist wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Chemist wrote:
It's pretty clear that if you want to be careful, you wear mask indoors except in your home.


Well no. Masks are for protecting others, remember ? If you want to be careful, you need to force everyone around to wear a mask.

That's the big problem and why this "flip-flopping" happens, not just in the US but everywhere.



You're right, but I am too - I just failed to add the context that the mask I'M wearing is an N95. I've already posted how ridiculous it is that over a year after the start of the pandemic, we aren't being asked to wear N95/KN95/FFP2(?) or equivalent. Those masks do protect the wearer. There is also some evidence that wearing lesser masks still offers some protection to the wearer as well, although nowhere near perfect.


We have gone to restaurants twice since vaccinations completed in February. We were going to go again this month, but with Delta - no. Also had switched to the more comfortable cloth masks for our occasional store visit. Back to our KN95s. A bummer, were our county vaccinations up to 80+% we could ease up.
 
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BaconButty
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:05 pm

Aesma wrote:
In France with the rise of vaccinations following the imposition of a "sanitary passport", there were fears we would run out of vaccines, however Moderna will cover the shortfall. I wonder how the UK will vaccinate the young since they don't have enough Pfizer and don't seem to have ordered the Moderna.


Potentially a problem. We have ordered 17m Moderna doses to be delivered this year, we've done 1.3m first doses and about 0.3m second doses. After a slow start they're picking up pace. The first 40m Pfizer order has been pretty much finished as far as first doses, the follow on order is supposed to come late August early September. AZ is for 40+, so very few first doses being given now.

So on theory we're in a lull in supply. Demand, however, has tanked. We're probably looking at the first phase of adult vaccinations finishing at 47m first doses and 45m second. Not bad, but thought it would be a million more.

The kids thing is funny. The JVCI are far more reluctant than the CDC for example to vaccinate under 18s. Sort of with good reason. The CDC argument involves fairly pessimistic projections of the harm done by covid to children, along with estimates for heart inflammation that are far more optimistic than the Israeli experience. Using more realistic figures, the benefit of vaccination becomes marginal. On the other hand, the effect of long covid, organ damage, and distruption to education isn't taken into account.

They're holding off for now. The lull in supply isn't officially a reason, but I suspect it makes it easier to defer a decision, and in the meantime the data on long covid and vaccine related myocarditis may firm up.
 
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Aesma
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:16 am

Keeping a reservoir of 20 millions kids for the virus isn't a great idea either.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:38 am

Aesma wrote:
Keeping a reservoir of 20 millions kids for the virus isn't a great idea either.


48 Million under 12 here in the USA(14% of total population). This season they are actively mingling with vaccinated/unvaccinated adults/kids and traveling quite a bit.

Here is my estimates (appreciate if someone can correct)
67% Had one shot
14% Not qualified under 12
5% Anti-vaxxers (Lost cause)
2% Hesitancy-Fear of needles
2% Hesitancy-No full approval
10% Hesitancy other reasons

IMHO, blaming and shaming is not going address hesitancy. Pediatric <12 approval, Nasal spray and FDA full approval will quickly boost vaccination rate.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:34 am

The Delta wave is now receding in the UK. I estimate that the peak of the mortality rate should happen in the next few days (it usually trails the infection peak by about 2 weeks).

So far, the daily death rate stands at around 60~70 compared to 1000+ at the same time during the last wave (before mass vaccination)...

I anybody needs more evidence that the vaccines are not only safe (dozens of millions inoculated in the UK alone, billions Worldwide, with an extremely low incidence of severe side effects), but highly effective at protecting from the nastier symptoms of Covid, then this can't be any clearer...

Spain, France, Germany and other Continental nations are now undergoing the same peak. I estimate the toll on lives and on the healthcare system will be an order of magnitude lower than during the previous waves thanks to vaccination (even though these nations are not at the levels of vaccination the UK is at).

There is no clear indication that this variant is much more dangerous to kids, although it is expected that they would now represent a larger proportion of the hospitalized since they are mostly not vaccinated yet whereas their older peers tend to be.

The fear mongering surrounding these new waves will continue in the media I'm afraid, but their effect in largely vaccinated populations will remain subdued... Not ideal by any means, but far from catastrophic.

This being said, vaccination efforts need to continue until almost everyone is vaccinated. I fully support the drives to mandate vaccines in parts of Europe, or at least to prevent unvaccinated people from attending crowded places and for public and private employers to require vaccination.
Even if people want to maintain their right to decide on whether they want to be vaccinated, they should pay for the consequences of remaining unvaccinated.
What irritates me the most about anti-vaxxers is not that they want their right to not be vaccinated, it is that they want to live the same normal lives as everyone else while making no sacrifices or efforts whatsoever to end the pandemic.
You can't have your cake and it eat too.
 
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BaconButty
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:21 am

Aesma wrote:
Keeping a reservoir of 20 millions kids for the virus isn't a great idea either.


It's not 20m. This is for the UK, but I imagine would be similar for France:
  • There are approximately 14m under 18s
  • There are no vaccines approved for under 12s so 4.5-5m
  • Some under 18s are already eligible. 200k from 17 and 9 months, the clinically vulnerable, or kids with a vulnerable person in their family. So say 4.5m
  • Vaccination rates have dropped off steeply with age. I would be amazed if the take up was greater than 50%. So 2.25m
  • Around a third of kids 12-17 have infection related immunity. So 1.5m.
  • The expectation is that 16-17 year olds will get the OK in a matter of weeks anyway. The ethics are different, as I believe 16 year olds can consent to treatments themselves here.

In reality a program of child vaccination would gain us only a few percent towards herd immunity, and there may be better ways to achieve that, by booster jabs or focussing on adult hesitancy. It is an ethically difficult decision. Here's a good Twitter thread on how marginal the benefit case is for kids:
https://twitter.com/justin_ales/status/ ... 91712?s=19

Don't get me wrong, I'm for it. Mainly because of the potential for organ damage from Covid, and also for the "greater good". But I don't see it as a gimme. We may have, fairly shortly, vaccines with more benign side effects. Novavax has shown that in trials. Valneva is expected to be similar. Would waiting a few months be sensible? If, as expected, Novavax starts going into arms (mostly as boosters) from August, we could have good real world data by October, and be vaccinating kids in November. Data around Long Covid will start to firm up, and some consensus around the risks of myocarditis from mRna vaccines will be reached over time. I'd like to say waiting a few months won't kill, but who knows.

Edit: from the Twitter thread linked. Comparing JVCI and CDC assumptions on hospitalisation rates, ICU rates and deaths amongst kids. Both models have 146-180 instances of myocarditis from vaccination. But the US assumptions project 182 deaths over 3 months, the UK just 5. Worth a read.
 
art
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:44 am

Francoflier wrote:
The Delta wave is now receding in the UK. I estimate that the peak of the mortality rate should happen in the next few days (it usually trails the infection peak by about 2 weeks).

So far, the daily death rate stands at around 60~70 compared to 1000+ at the same time during the last wave (before mass vaccination)...


I have seen a couple of curious projections on worldometers concerning infection rates in UK. A few days ago they projected 300K infections a day mid-Sep. Today they project 400K+ a day mid-Sep.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-k ... infections

What can their projections be based on? Running 7 day average infections have fallen here for the last 6 days from 46K down to 35K now.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:49 pm

art wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
The Delta wave is now receding in the UK. I estimate that the peak of the mortality rate should happen in the next few days (it usually trails the infection peak by about 2 weeks).

So far, the daily death rate stands at around 60~70 compared to 1000+ at the same time during the last wave (before mass vaccination)...


I have seen a couple of curious projections on worldometers concerning infection rates in UK. A few days ago they projected 300K infections a day mid-Sep. Today they project 400K+ a day mid-Sep.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-k ... infections

What can their projections be based on? Running 7 day average infections have fallen here for the last 6 days from 46K down to 35K now.


I have no idea where they would have gotten that curve from. Even from a layman's standpoint, there's no way the infection figures would have gone this high, especially when considering that previous infection waves never came close to that amount even when seroprevalence was nowhere near what it is today... It almost looks like the work of someone with an agenda to me.
 
StarAC17
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:16 pm

art wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
The Delta wave is now receding in the UK. I estimate that the peak of the mortality rate should happen in the next few days (it usually trails the infection peak by about 2 weeks).

So far, the daily death rate stands at around 60~70 compared to 1000+ at the same time during the last wave (before mass vaccination)...


I have seen a couple of curious projections on worldometers concerning infection rates in UK. A few days ago they projected 300K infections a day mid-Sep. Today they project 400K+ a day mid-Sep.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-k ... infections

What can their projections be based on? Running 7 day average infections have fallen here for the last 6 days from 46K down to 35K now.


There have been calls to audit a lot of these models as they show absolutely out of this world case projections.

In Ontario in April they were projecting 15,000-30,000 cases a day. Which at the time was more than the entire United States case load. This was 2 weeks after a lockdown was put in place. The day this was announced was the peak of the 3rd wave and the maximum daily case load was just under 5,000 daily.

What I think is missing from this is that most people don't spread Covid. Very few people do to a lot of people.

I wonder if the UK will get a bump from an event like Silverstone. However this would probably be starting around now.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:19 pm

[*]Link to a Guardian article trying to explore a few pistes why cases are falling in the UK.
Might interest a few:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... oss-the-uk

Best regards an stay safe,
Jonas
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:32 pm

CDC did another flip-flop, indoor masks for counties with substantial risk of transmission?
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/27/health/c ... index.html

Michigan has 83 counties, only 6 sparsely populated counties are at or above substantial level of transmission. We are good.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:47 pm

Time for 3rd jab, Pfizer reporting 3rd jab provides 5x protection for adults:
https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/3rd-dos ... utType=amp
 
Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:48 pm

Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 shot’s efficacy drops to 84% from 96% in six months , https://seekingalpha.com/news/3720707-p ... nths-study
Personally, I am all for a third shot and/or a recurring annual shot. Would be great if it can be combined with the annual flu shot.
 
proest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:54 pm

Cannot agree. Jab everything above 70 and people working on the IC a third time, but inoculate the rest of the world before spending those resources on rich people. 84% is still extremely good and probably still means 99% non-serious, some sicknesses will probably just keep their antibodies on high levels. I guess Moderna en Pfizer can make more money by selling shots for 30 dollars OECD than helping Bangladesh.
 
art
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:35 pm

proest wrote:
Jab everything above 70 and people working on the IC a third time, but inoculate the rest of the world before spending those resources on rich people.


I go along with that on ethical grounds. I'm not too sure about others. An awful lot of people seem to prefer the me, me, me option - protect me, my family, my country before anyone else.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:39 am

art wrote:
proest wrote:
Jab everything above 70 and people working on the IC a third time, but inoculate the rest of the world before spending those resources on rich people.


I go along with that on ethical grounds. I'm not too sure about others. An awful lot of people seem to prefer the me, me, me option - protect me, my family, my country before anyone else.


Call it what you will, the world must return to normalcy. Bummer that will take 3 doses. It would be irresponsible to not keep those we know safe.

So countries need to produce:
Vietnam is signing the agreements to do so: https://www.nationthailand.com/international/40003893
India is the global production center, not the rich countries. They are ramping up to supply the world: https://in.news.yahoo.com/india-us-focu ... 37527.html
SII is testing for kids vaccines, as young as 2: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 795491.cms
South Africa won't just make vaccine, they will make Pfizer: https://www.wowktv.com/news/u-s-world/s ... in-africa/
Thailand is making vaccine (link below)
Cuba is making vaccine and in negotiations with Pakistan and Iran has already started production: https://tribune.com.pk/story/2310471/cu ... n-pakistan
https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-07-29/
Bummer Novavax for Australia delayed 6 months, but we were promised Merck, Sanofi, and CureVac and they failed. That is the nature of vaccines. https://www.businessinsider.com.au/aust ... ay-novavax
I have no idea why the vaccine production in Mexico keeps failing on production, they know how to make vaccines: (to be fair, the mixing up the ingredients on J&J was bad too): https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/ ... 021-04-30/

But upthread we have links on Moderna adding two new lines (not yet started) as well as ramping up in the EU. We have links on the UK setting up to produce Valneva in Scotland. (I'm sorry, I'm not reposting links a dozen times). Just as I'm not going to repost on South Korea and Japanese production.

The world is jabbing 34.23 million doses a day. That is a billion a month. With triple jabs the new standard, we'll have to increase production. Telling people they're selfish gets old. They do not donate after being insulted. You need to do the case on reducing variants so they keep funding the production. If denied protecting their loved ones, I guarantee the first thing any people do is halt exports (we saw in the USA, EU row with UK, and now the 2nd link Thailand capping exports):
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandem ... ases-surge

What we need is more countries like Brazil (many links upthread) producing their own vaccines. e.g., clever things like using Veterinary pharma production to make vaccines: https://www.poandpo.com/in-sickness-and ... -vaccines/

So if someone having 3rd jabs makes them more willing to export, why wouldn't you do that? We cannot vaccinate everyone in 2021. But at a billion doses per month and growing with 14%+ already fully vaccinated and thus only needing a 3rd jab, call it 20 billion doses, we will achieve full vaccination in 2022.

Not to mention you cannot start and stop distribution on a whim easily. We need to get more vaccine to poor countries, but the natural motivation will be the border nations (e.g, Mexico and Canada for the USA) as the closer a people is, the more likely one is to know them (vacation) or trade with them.

To sell vaccines are desperately needed, people only listen to deaths. The poorer countries are young and thus have few deaths. As most people think this is pretty harmless in the young (I strongly disagree), how are you going to motivate a supply distribution on your argument of selfish? I use variants.
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths

Good news is those poor countries will get an effective Malaria vaccine out of all of this. Best prior "vaccine" was 30% effective (1st link). Oxford-AZ based Malaria vaccine 77% effective. (2nd link)

https://www.wane.com/news/national-worl ... echnology/
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56858158

Out of this, we'll have effective flu vaccines, Malaria vaccines, and hopefully other vaccines. Never before was there that self-interest on new vaccine technologies. That "me, me me" you mocked will make a better world in the future. We are on track to have the world triple jabbed by the end of 2022. Maybe not their preferred Guchi vaccine, but 3 of almost any vaccine does the job well enough. Stop thinking of a zero sum game; think of how to get more vaccine out there. For it would be silly not to look after one's own self interests, in particular family safety. That is human nature. That is a primary drive no debate on the internet can change is to protect one's family, friends, and loved ones.

Lightsaber
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:43 am

Oh, Ireland has bought Valneva as a booster shot.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/irel ... -w5f32933r

While I agree with giving the vulnerable, healthcare, and first responders early access, I remain of the opinion everyone needs a booster shot. I'm happy the UK is building extra capacity for boosters.

Lightsaber
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:21 pm

proest wrote:
Cannot agree. Jab everything above 70 and people working on the IC a third time, but inoculate the rest of the world before spending those resources on rich people. 84% is still extremely good and probably still means 99% non-serious, some sicknesses will probably just keep their antibodies on high levels. I guess Moderna en Pfizer can make more money by selling shots for 30 dollars OECD than helping Bangladesh.

Ability for second dose Pfizer stopping severe case, per Israel data, is now 91% wirh the spread of Delta. So there're still 9% of original likelihood for vaccinated to become severe
A reason why Pfizer and Moderna are sending vaccines to Western countries first is because those countries funded their vaccine development in the development process.
Rich countries who did not do so, like some of those in East Asia and Oceania, didn't get priority in vaccine shipment either.
And many of the western countries, even with vaccine sharply reducing infection rate, still have their case count standing above many other undervaccinated countries.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:49 pm

c933103 wrote:
proest wrote:
Cannot agree. Jab everything above 70 and people working on the IC a third time, but inoculate the rest of the world before spending those resources on rich people. 84% is still extremely good and probably still means 99% non-serious, some sicknesses will probably just keep their antibodies on high levels. I guess Moderna en Pfizer can make more money by selling shots for 30 dollars OECD than helping Bangladesh.

Ability for second dose Pfizer stopping severe case, per Israel data, is now 91% wirh the spread of Delta. So there're still 9% of original likelihood for vaccinated to become severe
A reason why Pfizer and Moderna are sending vaccines to Western countries first is because those countries funded their vaccine development in the development process.
Rich countries who did not do so, like some of those in East Asia and Oceania, didn't get priority in vaccine shipment either.
And many of the western countries, even with vaccine sharply reducing infection rate, still have their case count standing above many other undervaccinated countries.

With the new B.1.621 spreading, we'll need that 3rd jab to slow cases. We're just too old (population age) to let the variants spread.

As you note, those that funded vaccine development and production had first chances at the vaccine.
To others:
Money motivated fast production. AZ was done on a cost basis and has the most production issues as they do not have the funds to smooth over the bumps that inevitably happen.
My last post noted the tremendous ramp up from the current billion doses per month. That will slow the spread and allow more doses to be diverted. However, we'll probably see a billion doses go to the funding countries for a 3rd jab. We have to return to normal and unfortunately the current level of vaccination does not allow that.

Lightsaber
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:13 pm

Francoflier wrote:
The Delta wave is now receding in the UK. I estimate that the peak of the mortality rate should happen in the next few days (it usually trails the infection peak by about 2 weeks).

So far, the daily death rate stands at around 60~70 compared to 1000+ at the same time during the last wave (before mass vaccination)...

I anybody needs more evidence that the vaccines are not only safe (dozens of millions inoculated in the UK alone, billions Worldwide, with an extremely low incidence of severe side effects), but highly effective at protecting from the nastier symptoms of Covid, then this can't be any clearer...

Spain, France, Germany and other Continental nations are now undergoing the same peak. I estimate the toll on lives and on the healthcare system will be an order of magnitude lower than during the previous waves thanks to vaccination (even though these nations are not at the levels of vaccination the UK is at).

There is no clear indication that this variant is much more dangerous to kids, although it is expected that they would now represent a larger proportion of the hospitalized since they are mostly not vaccinated yet whereas their older peers tend to be.

The fear mongering surrounding these new waves will continue in the media I'm afraid, but their effect in largely vaccinated populations will remain subdued... Not ideal by any means, but far from catastrophic.

This being said, vaccination efforts need to continue until almost everyone is vaccinated. I fully support the drives to mandate vaccines in parts of Europe, or at least to prevent unvaccinated people from attending crowded places and for public and private employers to require vaccination.
Even if people want to maintain their right to decide on whether they want to be vaccinated, they should pay for the consequences of remaining unvaccinated.
What irritates me the most about anti-vaxxers is not that they want their right to not be vaccinated, it is that they want to live the same normal lives as everyone else while making no sacrifices or efforts whatsoever to end the pandemic.
You can't have your cake and it eat too.

Well said. We'll have to here in the US do school and employment mandates to increase vaccinations. I find it fascinating there is a fraction of the population eager for vaccines and those that aren't.
Pretty telling:
1. Those with more than a high school education are 40% more likely to be willing to be vaccinated.
2. In areas where supply exceeds demand, more men are getting vaccinated (healthcare and schools has priority, having early vaccinations go to women)
3. Age plays a role, it seems to be age 25 is the dividing line. Those younger hesitate, those older are more likely to get vaccinated with above age 40 slightly more likely to get vaccinated.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01454-y

The issue is the burden. We need healthcare back to doing what they should be doing and not treating coronavirus. To get there, the world needs a far higher vaccination rate.

The UK is doing well. With 55.4% of the population fully vaccinated that gave the health system time to react (slows the virus, fewer severe cases). I see Canada and Spain have passed the UK, which is good news to slow the spread with Germany and Italy breaking 50% too. The USA isn't yet at 50% fully vaccinated. To get to 70%+ we need a younger kids vaccine. We also need to do more to protect the vulnerable.
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

Lightsaber
 
CranfordBoy
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:58 pm

Not yet peer reviewed so some caution needed, but results of EMA study of data from Spain, UK and Netherlands suggests rates of blood clotting are comparable between Pfizer/Biontech and AZ vaccines:
https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/07/2 ... tudy-finds

Link to the pre-print paper in the Lancet:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=3886421

The AZ vaccine has had some bad press around the world because of blood clotting side effects. Perhaps, this study will go some way to restoring its safety reputation.
 
Dupli
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:46 pm

Bad news: it seems even vaccinated can get long covid:
Most breakthrough cases were mild or asymptomatic, although 19% had persistent symptoms (>6 weeks).

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2109072

This was before delta.

The study didn't measure how many cases the vaccines prevented, so we don't know how frequent cases really are.

lightsaber wrote:

Call it what you will, the world must return to normalcy.


That seems wishful thinking at the moment, with the current vaccines. I do have high hopes for nasal spray vaccines, which stop the virus at the point of entry and are easy to administer frequently.

Professor Ylä-Herttuala said: “Vaccines injected intramuscularly produce IgG antibodies in the bloodstream, but nasal vaccines also produce an IgA response that protects mucous membranes.

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.c ... l-vaccine/
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:38 am

Dupli wrote:
Bad news: it seems even vaccinated can get long covid:
Most breakthrough cases were mild or asymptomatic, although 19% had persistent symptoms (>6 weeks).

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2109072

This was before delta.

The study didn't measure how many cases the vaccines prevented, so we don't know how frequent cases really are.

lightsaber wrote:

Call it what you will, the world must return to normalcy.


That seems wishful thinking at the moment, with the current vaccines. I do have high hopes for nasal spray vaccines, which stop the virus at the point of entry and are easy to administer frequently.

Professor Ylä-Herttuala said: “Vaccines injected intramuscularly produce IgG antibodies in the bloodstream, but nasal vaccines also produce an IgA response that protects mucous membranes.

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.c ... l-vaccine/

It might be wishful thinking, but the 3rd jab seems to offer enough immunity to return to normal.

As someone with long haul symptoms, it is a concern. e.g., I'm cooking dinner for a group and I didn't even consider one side dish my daughter is now cooking as... I really cannot taste it.

I'm a fan of the right proteins (e.g., reformulate vaccines) or enough titers, in particular T-cells (which are really boosted by the 3rd jab).
Your link convinces me 2 jabs are insufficient. Now we debate the solution. ;) Seriously, we are learning as we go. I think a variant booster is past due. Ideally one with the yearly influenza vaccine (do a 2 in 1 booster). Just my :twocents:

Lightsaber
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:36 am

Both anti-vaxxers and CDC are not helping controlling this pandemic.

Anti-vaxxers don't believe in vaccines and CDC with its sloppy guidance doesn't give vaccine a chance to work.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Both anti-vaxxers and CDC are not helping controlling this pandemic.

Anti-vaxxers don't believe in vaccines and CDC with its sloppy guidance doesn't give vaccine a chance to work.



The CDC guidance has had to change as Covid has evolved, and the actions of the Anti-Vaxxers have helped create an environment where the guidance is no longer working that seemed to be on target when Vaccinations ramped up.

The CDC can not set one path and stay on it, when the Virus they are chasing is evolving. That is science.

The Anti-Vaxxers and CDC critics are living in a wish-casting world where they think everything revolves around their personal choices and personal wishes.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:58 pm

casinterest wrote:
The CDC can not set one path and stay on it, when the Virus they are chasing is evolving. That is science. .


There is no science, just politics. What CDC did is exactly opposite of science.

The carnage in India, efficacy & breakthrough data from Israel, elaborate collection and analysis of data from UK, excellent contact tracing in Singapore and Australia, all show CDC was at best sleep at wheel.

Anti-vaxxers are anti-science is a known fact, what is CDC's excuse.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:02 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
There is no science, just politics. What CDC did is exactly opposite of science.


The CDC has zero credibility left.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:06 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The CDC can not set one path and stay on it, when the Virus they are chasing is evolving. That is science. .


There is no science, just politics. What CDC did is exactly opposite of science.

The carnage in India, efficacy & breakthrough data from Israel, elaborate collection and analysis of data from UK, excellent contact tracing in Singapore and Australia, all show CDC was at best sleep at wheel.

Anti-vaxxers are anti-science is a known fact, what is CDC's excuse.


CDC is based on science, but you have to remember, that the US has laws on privacy, and also an arena where politicians are allowed to undermine facts for political gain throughout the US. So blaming it all on the CDC is ignoring what actually occurred around them and their attempts to get the virus contained.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:48 pm

casinterest wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The CDC can not set one path and stay on it, when the Virus they are chasing is evolving. That is science. .


There is no science, just politics. What CDC did is exactly opposite of science.

The carnage in India, efficacy & breakthrough data from Israel, elaborate collection and analysis of data from UK, excellent contact tracing in Singapore and Australia, all show CDC was at best sleep at wheel.

Anti-vaxxers are anti-science is a known fact, what is CDC's excuse.


CDC is based on science, but you have to remember, that the US has laws on privacy, and also an arena where politicians are allowed to undermine facts for political gain throughout the US. So blaming it all on the CDC is ignoring what actually occurred around them and their attempts to get the virus contained.


Israel, a country with better vaccination rate than ours, reimposed its mask mandate immediately after looking at the data.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57594155

But Walenski doubled down on no-mask even when CDC internal memos shows how contagious Delta is.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x82d830

No masks for schools when memo shows school opening poses highest risk.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/11/politics ... index.html

Even last week Fauci was telling on TV they have data showing indoor mask mandates are not required.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:04 pm

The U.S. needs an immediate mask mandate and capacity restrictions if we want to slow the virus. We also need booster shots like Israel is doing for 60 plus. It is sad the Biden administration and CDC are not taking a stronger stance in capacity restrictions and masks. We did not get enough people vaccinated due to conspiracy theories and we have an awful variant now. We also need a vaccine passport for work and travel. We already know Republicans have been anti mask and science so we need the the Biden administration to take the lead and follow the science.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:39 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
casinterest wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

There is no science, just politics. What CDC did is exactly opposite of science.

The carnage in India, efficacy & breakthrough data from Israel, elaborate collection and analysis of data from UK, excellent contact tracing in Singapore and Australia, all show CDC was at best sleep at wheel.

Anti-vaxxers are anti-science is a known fact, what is CDC's excuse.


CDC is based on science, but you have to remember, that the US has laws on privacy, and also an arena where politicians are allowed to undermine facts for political gain throughout the US. So blaming it all on the CDC is ignoring what actually occurred around them and their attempts to get the virus contained.


Israel, a country with better vaccination rate than ours, reimposed its mask mandate immediately after looking at the data.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57594155

But Walenski doubled down on no-mask even when CDC internal memos shows how contagious Delta is.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x82d830

No masks for schools when memo shows school opening poses highest risk.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/11/politics ... index.html

Even last week Fauci was telling on TV they have data showing indoor mask mandates are not required.



Quit with the news from weeks ago.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/30/health/n ... index.html

N)The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued new guidance on Tuesday that recommended a return to indoor masking, even for vaccinated people, in parts of the country with high and substantial coronavirus spread. The agency also urged that schools require masks for all students, teachers and visitors.


The virus has changed and the guidance will change. Not sure why you have such a hangup on the science and the CDC.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:18 pm

casinterest wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
casinterest wrote:

CDC is based on science, but you have to remember, that the US has laws on privacy, and also an arena where politicians are allowed to undermine facts for political gain throughout the US. So blaming it all on the CDC is ignoring what actually occurred around them and their attempts to get the virus contained.


Israel, a country with better vaccination rate than ours, reimposed its mask mandate immediately after looking at the data.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57594155

But Walenski doubled down on no-mask even when CDC internal memos shows how contagious Delta is.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x82d830

No masks for schools when memo shows school opening poses highest risk.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/11/politics ... index.html

Even last week Fauci was telling on TV they have data showing indoor mask mandates are not required.



Quit with the news from weeks ago.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/30/health/n ... index.html

N)The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued new guidance on Tuesday that recommended a return to indoor masking, even for vaccinated people, in parts of the country with high and substantial coronavirus spread. The agency also urged that schools require masks for all students, teachers and visitors.


The virus has changed and the guidance will change. Not sure why you have such a hangup on the science and the CDC.


Delta killed Millions of Indians in March. CDC lifted mask mandate in May against all scientific evidence.
Even now it recommends only for counties with high risk of community transmission. Most of the Michigan is not. We are as good as NE states. Should I be proud, no. Vaccination rate is still low. Mask usage also came down.

Repeating word "science" is not science. Science by definition needs verifiable proof. Science hasn't changed, political equations might have.

IMHO, protecting vaccinated and unqualified children should be top priority rather than winning the blame game.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:24 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
casinterest wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Israel, a country with better vaccination rate than ours, reimposed its mask mandate immediately after looking at the data.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57594155

But Walenski doubled down on no-mask even when CDC internal memos shows how contagious Delta is.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x82d830

No masks for schools when memo shows school opening poses highest risk.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/11/politics ... index.html

Even last week Fauci was telling on TV they have data showing indoor mask mandates are not required.



Quit with the news from weeks ago.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/30/health/n ... index.html

N)The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued new guidance on Tuesday that recommended a return to indoor masking, even for vaccinated people, in parts of the country with high and substantial coronavirus spread. The agency also urged that schools require masks for all students, teachers and visitors.


The virus has changed and the guidance will change. Not sure why you have such a hangup on the science and the CDC.


Delta killed Millions of Indians in March. CDC lifted mask mandate in May against all scientific evidence.
Even now it recommends only for counties with high risk of community transmission. Most of the Michigan is not. We are as good as NE states. Should I be proud, no. Vaccination rate is still low. Mask usage also came down.

Repeating word "science" is not science. Science by definition needs verifiable proof. Science hasn't changed, political equations might have.

IMHO, protecting vaccinated and unqualified children should be top priority rather than winning the blame game.


The science is evolving. And the CDC is playing catchup based on US cases. So quit blaming the CDC for following the science it has in front of it.

The politicians are the ones that have played politics with the science.

Where the politicians need to get better is actually referencing the CDC data when they tell their constituents they don't believe the CDC.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... dance.html
Updated information for fully vaccinated people given new evidence on the B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant currently circulating in the United States.
Added a recommendation for fully vaccinated people to wear a mask in public indoor settings in areas of substantial or high transmission.
Added information that fully vaccinated people might choose to wear a mask regardless of the level of transmission, particularly if they are immunocompromised or at increased risk for severe disease from COVID-19, or if they have someone in their household who is immunocompromised, at increased risk of severe disease or not fully vaccinated.
Added a recommendation for fully vaccinated people who have a known exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 to be tested 3-5 days after exposure, and to wear a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days or until they receive a negative test result.
CDC recommends universal indoor masking for all teachers, staff, students, and visitors to schools, regardless of vaccination status.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:47 pm

The Delta variant may be almost as bad as a new epidemic starting. The evidence is mounting up against us. I just finished reading Anthro-Vision by a PhD anthropologist, both academic and FT reporter/editor. She also discusses the role anthro has in corporate and high tech business. One chapter discusses how poorly Africa was doing with culture, medical practices, and superstitions. She almost did not need to note that the US is doing no better given its own culture, superstitions, and medical practices. Stand by for heavy seas.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:00 pm

casinterest wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Quit with the news from weeks ago.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/30/health/n ... index.html



The virus has changed and the guidance will change. Not sure why you have such a hangup on the science and the CDC.


Delta killed Millions of Indians in March. CDC lifted mask mandate in May against all scientific evidence.
Even now it recommends only for counties with high risk of community transmission. Most of the Michigan is not. We are as good as NE states. Should I be proud, no. Vaccination rate is still low. Mask usage also came down.

Repeating word "science" is not science. Science by definition needs verifiable proof. Science hasn't changed, political equations might have.

IMHO, protecting vaccinated and unqualified children should be top priority rather than winning the blame game.


The science is evolving. And the CDC is playing catchup based on US cases. So quit blaming the CDC for following the science it has in front of it.

The politicians are the ones that have played politics with the science.

Where the politicians need to get better is actually referencing the CDC data when they tell their constituents they don't believe the CDC.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... dance.html
Updated information for fully vaccinated people given new evidence on the B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant currently circulating in the United States.
Added a recommendation for fully vaccinated people to wear a mask in public indoor settings in areas of substantial or high transmission.
Added information that fully vaccinated people might choose to wear a mask regardless of the level of transmission, particularly if they are immunocompromised or at increased risk for severe disease from COVID-19, or if they have someone in their household who is immunocompromised, at increased risk of severe disease or not fully vaccinated.
Added a recommendation for fully vaccinated people who have a known exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 to be tested 3-5 days after exposure, and to wear a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days or until they receive a negative test result.
CDC recommends universal indoor masking for all teachers, staff, students, and visitors to schools, regardless of vaccination status.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view


Apparently most of the senior scientists left CDC over last several years. Now only political appointees and YouTube science prodigies running the show.

Seasonal flu vaccine in the USA every year is developed based on strains emerging in Africa. So stop giving excuses. Any competent public health regulator with science background would try to be ahead of the game.

B.1.617.2 was first sequenced in October 2020, became dominant in March 2021 and spread to entire world. So no Sherlock Homes needed to guess what it will do.

If CDC is always behind the curve, we will never get out of this pandemic.

Hope CDC is cognizant of the fact they don't have a OFF switch, they have only ON switch to spread transmission.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:12 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
casinterest wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Delta killed Millions of Indians in March. CDC lifted mask mandate in May against all scientific evidence.
Even now it recommends only for counties with high risk of community transmission. Most of the Michigan is not. We are as good as NE states. Should I be proud, no. Vaccination rate is still low. Mask usage also came down.

Repeating word "science" is not science. Science by definition needs verifiable proof. Science hasn't changed, political equations might have.

IMHO, protecting vaccinated and unqualified children should be top priority rather than winning the blame game.


The science is evolving. And the CDC is playing catchup based on US cases. So quit blaming the CDC for following the science it has in front of it.

The politicians are the ones that have played politics with the science.

Where the politicians need to get better is actually referencing the CDC data when they tell their constituents they don't believe the CDC.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... dance.html
Updated information for fully vaccinated people given new evidence on the B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant currently circulating in the United States.
Added a recommendation for fully vaccinated people to wear a mask in public indoor settings in areas of substantial or high transmission.
Added information that fully vaccinated people might choose to wear a mask regardless of the level of transmission, particularly if they are immunocompromised or at increased risk for severe disease from COVID-19, or if they have someone in their household who is immunocompromised, at increased risk of severe disease or not fully vaccinated.
Added a recommendation for fully vaccinated people who have a known exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 to be tested 3-5 days after exposure, and to wear a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days or until they receive a negative test result.
CDC recommends universal indoor masking for all teachers, staff, students, and visitors to schools, regardless of vaccination status.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view


Apparently most of the senior scientists left CDC over last several years. Now only political appointees and YouTube science prodigies running the show.

Seasonal flu vaccine in the USA every year is developed based on strains emerging in Africa. So stop giving excuses. Any competent public health regulator with science background would try to be ahead of the game.

B.1.617.2 was first sequenced in October 2020, became dominant in March 2021 and spread to entire world. So no Sherlock Homes needed to guess what it will do.

If CDC is always behind the curve, we will never get out of this pandemic.

Hope CDC is cognizant of the fact they don't have a OFF switch, they have only ON switch to spread transmission.


What is your point? You are politicizing science and investigation. the CDC is not. They are looking into the science as it becomes available. B.1.617.2 did not spread to the US until late in the game, and to this date, people that have been vaccinated are not winding up in the hospital or dead in any large numbers. Unfortunately the planned rollout of vaccines did not go well due ot politicians that see profit in dead people, and now the CDC is trying to save, the uneducated and stubborn folks that won't get vaccinated do to the proliferation of lies passed by right wing entities.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:38 pm

casinterest wrote:
What is your point? You are politicizing science and investigation. the CDC is not. They are looking into the science as it becomes available. B.1.617.2 did not spread to the US until late in the game, and to this date, people that have been vaccinated are not winding up in the hospital or dead in any large numbers. Unfortunately the planned rollout of vaccines did not go well due ot politicians that see profit in dead people, and now the CDC is trying to save, the uneducated and stubborn folks that won't get vaccinated do to the proliferation of lies passed by right wing entities.


Data and science both were always there, CDC refused to look at it. Connecting dots on separate pages is not always conspiracy, it it called intelligence.

CDC is poor in surveillance, contact tracing, sequencing, testing, pro-activeness and guidance compared to any of its counter partners in developed countries. $11 Billion budget.

The UK's SAGE and PHE puts out data as they see it. LANCET publishes peer reviewed papers. Easy to see the mismatch and call out bad political decisions.

CDC should stick to science, leave politics to politicians if they want to gain trust. Shouldn't be doctoring recommendations to serve political interests.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:48 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
casinterest wrote:
What is your point? You are politicizing science and investigation. the CDC is not. They are looking into the science as it becomes available. B.1.617.2 did not spread to the US until late in the game, and to this date, people that have been vaccinated are not winding up in the hospital or dead in any large numbers. Unfortunately the planned rollout of vaccines did not go well due ot politicians that see profit in dead people, and now the CDC is trying to save, the uneducated and stubborn folks that won't get vaccinated do to the proliferation of lies passed by right wing entities.


Data and science both were always there, CDC refused to look at it. Connecting dots on separate pages is not always conspiracy, it it called intelligence.

CDC is poor in surveillance, contact tracing, sequencing, testing, pro-activeness and guidance compared to any of its counter partners in developed countries. $11 Billion budget.

The UK's SAGE and PHE puts out data as they see it. LANCET publishes peer reviewed papers. Easy to see the mismatch and call out bad political decisions.

CDC should stick to science, leave politics to politicians if they want to gain trust. Shouldn't be doctoring recommendations to serve political interests.


The CDC is not an independent power organization. They work within the law and science they have in front of them for the US and when Delta became a problem(Last 3-4 weeks.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ta-variant

“With prior variants, when people had these rare breakthrough infections, we didn’t see the capacity of them to spread the virus to others,” Walensky told CNN.

“But with the Delta variant we now see in our outbreak investigations that have been occurring over the last couple of weeks, in those outbreak investigations we have been seeing that if you happen to have one of those breakthrough infections that you can actually now pass it to somebody else.”


The science changed and the guidance changed. End of story.


If the US had gotten enough folks vaccinated we would not be where we are now,

Even today there is a new release.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7030e2.htm

The most effective way to end this is vaccinations. The failures of politicians to enforce this has put the US in this position. People that want to blame the CDC at every turn forget one point.

Covid kills. The Vaccinations help keep it from killing. Just like the flu.


The whole caveat with Delta is that until the last month it has been shown that Delta is easily transmitted by vaccinated folks since it has a much higher viral load.

So one again, stop blaming the CDC for the fact that they have to do the science on a virus and deal with the fallout of liars and bad actors in the political side that are misinforming people so largely.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:35 pm

"Science" is going the way as "Racism": becoming a meaningless drivel word.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:48 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
"Science" is going the way as "Racism": becoming a meaningless drivel word.



That is an argument used by people that refuse to recognize both for what they are.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/science

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
 
Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:51 pm

casinterest wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
"Science" is going the way as "Racism": becoming a meaningless drivel word.



That is an argument used by people that refuse to recognize both for what they are.


No, it's a fact.
I am sure there will be an expression like "Playing the Science Card".

For example, the word "racism" has been used so often nowadays, even if the situation has nothing to do with racism, that people simply tune out and no longer believe those that complain about it. Basically, a version of "boy cried wolf".
Same thing is happening with the word "science". It is being bandied so often these days, even when the subject has absolutely nothing to do with science, or if the facts state the opposite. As a result, the word becomes meaningless and people simply tune out.
Last edited by Dieuwer on Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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casinterest
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Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:58 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
"Science" is going the way as "Racism": becoming a meaningless drivel word.



That is an argument used by people that refuse to recognize both for what they are.


No, it's a fact.
I am sure there will be an expression like "Playing the Science Card".


And it will be used by intelligent people against misinformed people forever, because science and racism are very real and meaningful terms

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