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Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:01 pm

casinterest wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
casinterest wrote:


That is an argument used by people that refuse to recognize both for what they are.


No, it's a fact.
I am sure there will be an expression like "Playing the Science Card".


And it will be used by intelligent people against misinformed people forever, because science and racism are very real and meaningful terms


Of course. But if people overuse and abuse those terms, more and more people simply won't believe the claims any longer. AKA "Boy Cried Wold".
 
StarAC17
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:02 pm

casinterest wrote:
The science changed and the guidance changed. End of story.


If the US had gotten enough folks vaccinated we would not be where we are now,

Even today there is a new release.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7030e2.htm

The most effective way to end this is vaccinations. The failures of politicians to enforce this has put the US in this position. People that want to blame the CDC at every turn forget one point.

Covid kills. The Vaccinations help keep it from killing. Just like the flu.


The whole caveat with Delta is that until the last month it has been shown that Delta is easily transmitted by vaccinated folks since it has a much higher viral load.

So one again, stop blaming the CDC for the fact that they have to do the science on a virus and deal with the fallout of liars and bad actors in the political side that are misinforming people so largely.



If this article is correct and after watching a clip on this (Breaking points with Krystal and Saagar) the study with transmission is a study from India which isn't administering mRNA vaccines as the primary vaccine. We know the Sinovac has an issue with transmission and I think that is used a lot in India.
Where the US and much of Europe is using a lot of mRNA. However if the level of transmission is basically the same from a vaccinated individual vs non-vaccinated then clearly the vaccines are not what they are cracked up to be and 100% vaccination would keep this virus circulating and potential mutations are inevitable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN_3vINOxAQ

The CDC and Fauci are not off the hook though. They are basically waiving the white flag without waving the white flag and are saying the vaccines don't work and this will empower anti-vaxxers further. They do at very well at preventing disease and the focus on cases needs to shift and this is what the UK has got right.

I can see the sense of reimplementing the mask mandates for at least the next few months but for Fauci to say its a brand new virus is irresponsible because the vaccine hesitant (the ones you can convince) will want to wait for the booster that will come late this year/early 2022 that will be targeted at Delta. When the existing shot can keep you out of the hospital and is 60+ percent effective and in reality the level of replication in a vaccinated person has to be several orders of magnitude lower than non-vaccinated.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/28/dr-fauc ... virus.html

If a vaccinated person has a R0 of 8 then we need to either prepare for another winter of lockdowns or find a way to live with this because while it will proliferate the vaccines will make this very mild which was observed in the UK. Some uptick on hospitalizations but not a large one.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:07 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The science changed and the guidance changed. End of story.


If the US had gotten enough folks vaccinated we would not be where we are now,

Even today there is a new release.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7030e2.htm

The most effective way to end this is vaccinations. The failures of politicians to enforce this has put the US in this position. People that want to blame the CDC at every turn forget one point.

Covid kills. The Vaccinations help keep it from killing. Just like the flu.


The whole caveat with Delta is that until the last month it has been shown that Delta is easily transmitted by vaccinated folks since it has a much higher viral load.

So one again, stop blaming the CDC for the fact that they have to do the science on a virus and deal with the fallout of liars and bad actors in the political side that are misinforming people so largely.



If this article is correct and after watching a clip on this (Breaking points with Krystal and Saagar) the study with transmission is a study from India which isn't administering mRNA vaccines as the primary vaccine. We know the Sinovac has an issue with transmission and I think that is used a lot in India.
Where the US and much of Europe is using a lot of mRNA. However if the level of transmission is basically the same from a vaccinated individual vs non-vaccinated then clearly the vaccines are not what they are cracked up to be and 100% vaccination would keep this virus circulating and potential mutations are inevitable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN_3vINOxAQ

The CDC and Fauci are not off the hook though. They are basically waiving the white flag without waving the white flag and are saying the vaccines don't work and this will empower anti-vaxxers further. They do at very well at preventing disease and the focus on cases needs to shift and this is what the UK has got right.

I can see the sense of reimplementing the mask mandates for at least the next few months but for Fauci to say its a brand new virus is irresponsible because the vaccine hesitant (the ones you can convince) will want to wait for the booster that will come late this year/early 2022 that will be targeted at Delta. When the existing shot can keep you out of the hospital and is 60+ percent effective and in reality the level of replication in a vaccinated person has to be several orders of magnitude lower than non-vaccinated.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/28/dr-fauc ... virus.html

If a vaccinated person has a R0 of 8 then we need to either prepare for another winter of lockdowns or find a way to live with this because while it will proliferate the vaccines will make this very mild which was observed in the UK. Some uptick on hospitalizations but not a large one.


The vaccines are needed and must continue to be administered and worked on . The current data shows that the hospitalizations are still primarily in the unvaccinated. We are where we are due to the misinformation and messaging by politicians about what the virus is and isn't.

https://www.waaytv.com/content/news/Hun ... 71901.html

Unlike the previous surges, this one was avoidable. Over 90% of hospitalized patients and nearly all covid-19 deaths are in unvaccinated people. If you catch covid-19 today, you probably caught it from someone who chose not to be vaccinated. We have an incredibly effective vaccine, developed by the world’s best scientists, and now given to hundreds of millions of people. It has been proven safe and effective beyond any reasonable doubt.

In less than a month the number of covid-19 patients hospitalized in Huntsville Hospital Health System has more than tripled from 35 to 129. The number of covid-19 patients in our ICUs has also tripled, back up to 42. The average age has fallen and the typical covid-19 patient in our hospital is now 57 years old and unvaccinated. In almost every case, their entire family is sick with covid-19.

If something evolves, it is unlike what it was before, so the mRNA being targeted on the spike proteins, may miss the new evolution, and our bodies may misfire, but the hospitalizations and deaths at this point indicate the mRNA vaccines are doing ok in terms of helping the body respond.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:11 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
The CDC and Fauci are not off the hook though. They are basically waiving the white flag without waving the white flag and are saying the vaccines don't work and this will empower anti-vaxxers further. They do at very well at preventing disease and the focus on cases needs to shift and this is what the UK has got right.


Exactly.
The endless flip-flopping and endless fearmongering destroys their credibility: then there is no need for masks, then there is, then not. Yes, no, yes, no. At a certain point, people simply tune out.
On top of that, the CDC has stooped to the level of blatant fear mongering. Comparing COVID with the Monkey Pox and hyperventilating about "breakthrough cases". What a load of BS. What's next, comparing COVID with Ebola?
The ONLY metric that counts IMO are hospitalizations. NOTHING ELSE. "Cases" in and by themselves mean nothing, but make good clickbait headlines for the tabloid mainstream media.
If I were running the CDC, I would have been consistent from the start: relate the wearing of masks to a threshold for vaccinations. Say, masks stay on until 75% of the population has received the vaccine or has fully recovered from COVID (natural immunity). Say: masks stay on in high traffic areas (airports, etc.). until 90% of travelers are vaxxed.
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:37 pm

Dupli wrote:
Bad news: it seems even vaccinated can get long covid:
Most breakthrough cases were mild or asymptomatic, although 19% had persistent symptoms (>6 weeks).

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2109072

This was before delta.

The study didn't measure how many cases the vaccines prevented, so we don't know how frequent cases really are.

lightsaber wrote:

Call it what you will, the world must return to normalcy.


That seems wishful thinking at the moment, with the current vaccines. I do have high hopes for nasal spray vaccines, which stop the virus at the point of entry and are easy to administer frequently.

Professor Ylä-Herttuala said: “Vaccines injected intramuscularly produce IgG antibodies in the bloodstream, but nasal vaccines also produce an IgA response that protects mucous membranes.

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.c ... l-vaccine/

Isn't 19% roughly the same rate as unvaccinated infected?
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:54 pm

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2 ... n-schools/

This right here is the politics that are killing people. Ron Desantis flying in the face of facts and reality.

Inside a restaurant full of unmasked supporters Friday morning, Gov. Ron DeSantis announced he would sign an executive order “protecting the rights of parents to make this decision about wearing masks for their children.”

“There will be no school closures. There will be no restrictions and no mandates in the state of Florida,” DeSantis told the cheering crowd. “Floridians have been and will remain free to choose what’s best for themselves and their families. We will protect their right to work, we’ll protect the right of businesses to operate and we will protect the right of our kids to attend school in person.”


So personal rights vs Scientifically recommended caution.
“Children should return to full-time in-person learning in the fall with proper prevention strategies in place,” CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensk said Tuesday. “CDC recommends community leaders encourage vaccination and universal masking to prevent further outbreaks in areas of substantial and high transmission with the delta variant.”


It seems Desantis might be sacrificing his political future if Covid Cases rise. He is flying right against CDC recommendations, and will lose all cover when things go south in Florida.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:13 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Well bad news
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/coronavi ... istry-says
Israel say Pfizer shots is now only 39% efficient against Delta.
But good news is it's still 91% efficient in offering protection from severe illness

They also claim there is a trend of decreasing efficiency correlated with time when people got their shots, with data as such:
Those vaccinated in April have 75% efficiency
Those vaccinated in March have 67% efficiency
Those vaccinated in February have 44% efficiency
Those vaccinated in January have 16% efficiency

Based on such data, it seems like a booster dose every 6 months is necessary? And the world have nowhere near enough vaccine manufacturing capacity for one booster dose every 6 months for entire world population


If the Israeli data reflects the actual situation out there, this is seriously fucked up. We need a G8 cooperative vaccine production task force STAT.

Pfizer also noted a 3rd jab works:
https://www.yahoo.com/now/pfizers-worki ... 35214.html

The data posted online from Pfizer suggests that the third dose of the vaccine can provide more than five times the antibody levels against the Delta variant in people between 18 and 55 compared to that from the standard two shots. And, according to the company's findings, the booster was even more effective in people 65 to 85 years old, increasing antibody levels nearly 11-fold among this cohort. All that being said, the data set was small

Israel has bought the 3rd jabs. So time to start putting them in arms back in the order they were before, but keep vaccinating the 12+ year olds. Perhaps start with 80+ and medical staff with say half the vaccine supply and then move down the ages again and add first responders, doctors, dentists, teachers, but that's it. Here in California the priority list, in my opinion, wasn't scientific, it became political.

But we need a booster. The data clearly shows that. Unfortunately, that means we now need 50% more vaccine to get to the goal. I posted upthread a bunch of links to new vaccine production. It shall be needed.

Personally, I'm reading about the younger in Australia getting AZ, to the point supply is running out, and that is wise in my opinion. Get 2-jabs of AZ and then when Pfizer is more available, 3rd jab with mRNA:
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australi ... uxbndlbing

Or get a 3rd AZ jab, that seems to do the job:
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/ge ... t-variants
AstraZeneca on Monday said a sub-analysis from the Oxford-led COV001 and COV002 trials with Vaxzevria induced strong immune responses following either a prolonged second dose interval of up to 45 weeks or following a third booster dose.

I no longer recommend stretching out between the 1st and 2nd dose. Get the 2nd dose ASAP and then get in line for the 3rd (in my opinion, no earlier than 4 weeks after the 2nd). I get the study was six months after dose #2, but I do not think most people should wait that long. Your mileage may vary (in other words, your decision).

I had coronavirus than 2 jabs of Pfizer. I wonder what my immunity level is? I had my first jab 5 weeks after first symptoms and symptoms lasted only a few days (excluding long haul symptoms)

I think the advice of coronavirus and one jab was enough is now invalid, in my opinion.

Lightsaber
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:26 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
There is no science, just politics. What CDC did is exactly opposite of science.


The CDC has zero credibility left.

The CDC lost credibility on masks in my opinion.
"Don't wear a mask unless it is a medical mask, but save those for medical people"
"Wear any mask"
"Wear a two layer cloth mask"
"Wear doubled up masks"
"Don't wear a mask"
"Masks again..."

They couldn't possibly have confused more people.

I have fun with anti-vaxers on how the virus (not the vaccines) reduce sexual function and male fertility. :devil:
https://www.phillyvoice.com/covid-19-ma ... -vaccines/

Note: I never had a fever, while I don't plan to have more kids, one doesn't want to think one couldn't...

I also just point out what I cannot taste. My most effective sales technique is to refuse deserts, because I cannot taste a lot of them after having coronavirus. It is amazing how effective "sorry, I had coronavirus and so I cannot taste cake anymore" is to convince someone to get vaccinated. You wouldn't believe how many people convert on that... but you can taste this other thing, right? Why yes, but not this other thing... Telling someone french fries are disgusting and meaning it really rocks there world (I used to love French fries). I cannot taste fat nor anything coated in fat anymore (creams, hamburger, fried foods, cakes are fat heavy, etc.) Cest la vie.

Sorry, but I want everyone vaccinated to slow the spread and reduce the burden on our burned out and exhausted health workers. They need extended paid vacations, not to be called back into the Covid19 wards... The number of "breakthroughs" that make the wards is small. Mostly people who cannot build an immunity (cancer patients, kidney patients, people over age 90, people over 450 pounds), at least per the stories of my doctor friends. Oh, they have a small number, but some dude snogging an unvaccinated plague bunny for hours probably had too heavy an initial viral load to avoid the hospital... (The nurses have fun teasing this guy as apparently they can understand from his looks why there was a drunken bar makeout fest with this dude, in public, he isn't too bad a case, he just needed some medicine and oxygen. Oh, the woman had a "flu like" case, your mileage may vary as they say...) Every other breakthrough was an unvaccinated spouse exposing a vaccinated spouse (just too much virus for the 2 jab vaccine when you share a bed, time to separate the beds Lucy...) ;) Note, from the stories that I've heard from my doctor friends.

Lightsaber
 
Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:58 pm

Speaking about a 3rd shot...if you wanted a third shot can you get one? Or is it "verboten"?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:21 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Speaking about a 3rd shot...if you wanted a third shot can you get one? Or is it "verboten"?

Here in the USA, if you go to a different Pharmacy and neglect to mention you had a prior vaccine, they won't know. It isn't allowed if you talk about it. Many of my friends who had J&J decided to up their vaccine and they had mRNA (everyone I know had Moderna who did this, but I have no idea why).

It is recommended in Israel for the vulnerable.

I'm going to another state soon for vacation, there is no way they would know if I had a vaccine and I could get a 3rd jab easy.

Lightsaber
 
Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:52 pm

Well, I would want one officially. As in: entered in my medical history.
I mean, why not a 3rd shot instead of throwing the vaccines away:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 90118.html
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story ... 056823002/
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/29/scie ... -shot.html

Over 110,000 unused COVID-19 vaccine doses destroyed by Georgia health officials since December


https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nation ... story.html
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:19 am

Bad News:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/ ... mm7031e2_w
In July 2021, following multiple large public events in a Barnstable County, Massachusetts, town, 469 COVID-19 cases were identified among Massachusetts residents who had traveled to the town during July 3–17; 346 (74%) occurred in fully vaccinated persons.

Not sure what is the town's vaccination rate, but now in this town, the majority of coronavirus patients are vaccinated individuals, according to this report.
Testing identified the Delta variant in 90% of specimens from 133 patients.

This is Delta variant.
Cycle threshold values were similar among specimens from patients who were fully vaccinated and those who were not.

Viral load in vaccinated patients are essentially the same as unvaccinated patients, hence vaccinated patients cannot be expected to.spread the virus less than unvaccinated.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:32 am

Israel starting 3rd jab for age 60+

https://www.boston.com/news/politics/20 ... ter/?amp=1

We'll all have to follow.

Dieuwer wrote:
Well, I would want one officially. As in: entered in my medical history.
I mean, why not a 3rd shot instead of throwing the vaccines away:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 90118.html
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story ... 056823002/
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/29/scie ... -shot.html

Over 110,000 unused COVID-19 vaccine doses destroyed by Georgia health officials since December


https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nation ... story.html

Not yet outside of risk groups and Israel.

Lightsaber
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:02 am

A "Snap" Lockdown was called for Brisbane, Australia.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/coronav ... wn-2499190

Sydney adds four weeks to lockdown as Australia COVID-19 cases grow

"Far from a planned exit from lockdown in three days, the city of 5 million people and neighbouring regional centres spanning 200 km (120 miles) of coastline were told to stay home until Aug. 28 following persistently high case numbers since a flare-up of the virulent Delta variant began last month."

Not small cities to be "locked down."

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 021-07-27/
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:27 am

Late to the party on this, but am I correct in my understanding that as the variants evolve, they do so to be come more virulent, but less deadly? If so,would this mean that eventually you'd see the majority of the population contracting the virus in some form, but being reduced in severity to that of a cold or the flu only?

For the record, I've had both my Moderna jabs and if more are recommended, I'll be in line when it's my turn.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:54 am

casinterest wrote:
...
The whole caveat with Delta is that until the last month it has been shown that Delta is easily transmitted by vaccinated folks since it has a much higher viral load.

So one again, stop blaming the CDC for the fact that they have to do the science on a virus and deal with the fallout of liars and bad actors in the political side that are misinforming people so largely.


CDC is at the center of all decisions made during this pandemic, calling out its failures is perfectly reasonable.

Schools are about to open in a month
-CDC flip-flop on masks
-CDC doesn't need 6ft separation in class rooms
-CDC relaxed testing/isolation recommendations for vaccinated
-Under 12 are not vaccine qualified
-Michigan enacted laws forcing(in the middle of pandemic) fully packed classrooms, attached school funding
-To get full funding, using CDC guidance as an excuse, school districts are forcing to kids to attend in-person, many classes removed from virtual, remote classes are not taught by same school teachers and no option to switch between in-person and virtual throughout the semester.
-Where are the science teachers? They seem to happy to go along with politically/fund motivated decisions.

Delta + some unmasked kids + some/all unvaccinated kids + packed classrooms + poor ventilation + packed cafeterias with unmasked kids- One need not be a scientist to expect the outcome.

Science is just an excuse. Politics and money are prime driving factors even when 48 Million kids health is at risk.
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:06 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Late to the party on this, but am I correct in my understanding that as the variants evolve, they do so to be come more virulent, but less deadly?

This is only one possible scenario out of many possibility.
It have been the dominant pattern for other infectious diseases in the world's history, but that was back when we had neither world production caoacity of vaccines nor widespread medical care, and up until last century most patients didn't got effective care either, and hence more deadly virus strains eliminated themselves through natural selection, leaving us with less deadly strain.
How this will play out with all the modern medical technology and government regulations available is unknown.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:10 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Late to the party on this, but am I correct in my understanding that as the variants evolve, they do so to be come more virulent, but less deadly? If so,would this mean that eventually you'd see the majority of the population contracting the virus in some form, but being reduced in severity to that of a cold or the flu only?

For the record, I've had both my Moderna jabs and if more are recommended, I'll be in line when it's my turn.

Current theory is less deadly is because the most vulnerable (age 50+) are well vaccinated. Vaccines cut, but do not stop transmission (40% to 60% reduction in transmission is the current estimate, which on a Ro or 5+ isn't enough):
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-05- ... ssion.html

Vaccines make the illness shorter and milder for those who get it:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021 ... risks.html

The new variants will have "hyperlocal" outbreaks. In other words, it will get into unvaccinated, misbehaving populations and spread quickly
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-thi ... iant-covid

We'll need that 3rd jab. But the main problem is:
1. No vaccine for under age 12. :(
2. So many "know better" and are avoiding the vaccine. Some do well, some explain to overworked doctors they didn't believe in the virus.

Hospitals are once again denying service to non-coronavirus patients because Covid19 takes so many hours of care.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wIhXsxGkNo

I wish people understood how painful coronavirus is. The doctors have changed their standards of what they consider normal for pain medicine. Morphine is almost a given. Many need fentanyl. Before coronavirus, heroin (the most powerful medically prescribed pain killer) was something I only heard being used on dying cancer patients. Two of my doctor friends are prescribing so much for the coronavirus wards they are being audited monthly by the FDA as they are individually prescribing huge quantities as... it is needed with this disease.

Now 70% of hospital patients are out after 3 days of remdemsivier and high flow oxygen, but oh will their lungs burn for weeks.
Tocilizumab is the medicine all the coronavirus doctors I know swear by. Bummer for the guaranteed (100% of patients) negative long term side effects, but it stops people (mostly) from dying. If it doesn't work and remdemsivier didn't work, say your goodbyes (every coronavirus doctor I know says only a very few survive after that treatment).
https://www.goodrx.com/blog/coronavirus ... n-the-way/

I see tons of people latching onto new treatments, but many later are shown not to work or to have such bad side effects doctors cannot justify their use (Tocilizumab is nasty, but it works, so pick your poison).

Now most is a moot conversation for the vaccinated and viral load really matters (hence the return to mask wearing). I wish people lowing their mask knew the stats. The point is so they don't exhale so many virus into the room or inhale as much.

The hyper localization is important. The virus doesn't care if a state is well vaccinated when a neighborhood is poorly vaccinated. It will find the concert, bar, mega-church, office, or school full of the vulnerable and spread fast.

I hope people realize influenza will be back this winter and influenza+coronavirus is really bad. Every coronavirus doctor I know won't treat it as that is such a high risk case, they send the patients off to the few trama centers with ECMO machines which kill a lot of patients (its really risky hooking up a patient to such a machine and disconnecting them from such a machine).

Meh, there will be those who won't vaccinate.
I already posted links on how the virus reduces male fertility. Cest la vie. This might just be a self correcting problem.

Lightsaber
 
Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:41 pm

In all honesty, large groups of people refusing to vaccinate is nothing new. For instance, there was a large scale Measles outbreak in the Jewish community in NYC in 2019. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/nyre ... s-nyc.html
Why? Because they refused their kids and themselves to be vaccinated. "God told them not to" (or something of the sort).
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:46 pm

lightsaber wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Late to the party on this, but am I correct in my understanding that as the variants evolve, they do so to be come more virulent, but less deadly? If so,would this mean that eventually you'd see the majority of the population contracting the virus in some form, but being reduced in severity to that of a cold or the flu only?

For the record, I've had both my Moderna jabs and if more are recommended, I'll be in line when it's my turn.

Current theory is less deadly is because the most vulnerable (age 50+) are well vaccinated. Vaccines cut, but do not stop transmission (40% to 60% reduction in transmission is the current estimate, which on a Ro or 5+ isn't enough):
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-05- ... ssion.html

Vaccines make the illness shorter and milder for those who get it:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021 ... risks.html

The new variants will have "hyperlocal" outbreaks. In other words, it will get into unvaccinated, misbehaving populations and spread quickly
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-thi ... iant-covid

We'll need that 3rd jab. But the main problem is:
1. No vaccine for under age 12. :(
2. So many "know better" and are avoiding the vaccine. Some do well, some explain to overworked doctors they didn't believe in the virus.

Hospitals are once again denying service to non-coronavirus patients because Covid19 takes so many hours of care.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wIhXsxGkNo

I wish people understood how painful coronavirus is. The doctors have changed their standards of what they consider normal for pain medicine. Morphine is almost a given. Many need fentanyl. Before coronavirus, heroin (the most powerful medically prescribed pain killer) was something I only heard being used on dying cancer patients. Two of my doctor friends are prescribing so much for the coronavirus wards they are being audited monthly by the FDA as they are individually prescribing huge quantities as... it is needed with this disease.

Now 70% of hospital patients are out after 3 days of remdemsivier and high flow oxygen, but oh will their lungs burn for weeks.
Tocilizumab is the medicine all the coronavirus doctors I know swear by. Bummer for the guaranteed (100% of patients) negative long term side effects, but it stops people (mostly) from dying. If it doesn't work and remdemsivier didn't work, say your goodbyes (every coronavirus doctor I know says only a very few survive after that treatment).
https://www.goodrx.com/blog/coronavirus ... n-the-way/

I see tons of people latching onto new treatments, but many later are shown not to work or to have such bad side effects doctors cannot justify their use (Tocilizumab is nasty, but it works, so pick your poison).

Now most is a moot conversation for the vaccinated and viral load really matters (hence the return to mask wearing). I wish people lowing their mask knew the stats. The point is so they don't exhale so many virus into the room or inhale as much.

The hyper localization is important. The virus doesn't care if a state is well vaccinated when a neighborhood is poorly vaccinated. It will find the concert, bar, mega-church, office, or school full of the vulnerable and spread fast.

I hope people realize influenza will be back this winter and influenza+coronavirus is really bad. Every coronavirus doctor I know won't treat it as that is such a high risk case, they send the patients off to the few trama centers with ECMO machines which kill a lot of patients (its really risky hooking up a patient to such a machine and disconnecting them from such a machine).

Meh, there will be those who won't vaccinate.
I already posted links on how the virus reduces male fertility. Cest la vie. This might just be a self correcting problem.

Lightsaber

See CDC link I posted above. Vaccinated individuals don't have lower viral load.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:28 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
casinterest wrote:
...
The whole caveat with Delta is that until the last month it has been shown that Delta is easily transmitted by vaccinated folks since it has a much higher viral load.

So one again, stop blaming the CDC for the fact that they have to do the science on a virus and deal with the fallout of liars and bad actors in the political side that are misinforming people so largely.


CDC is at the center of all decisions made during this pandemic, calling out its failures is perfectly reasonable.

Schools are about to open in a month
-CDC flip-flop on masks
-CDC doesn't need 6ft separation in class rooms
-CDC relaxed testing/isolation recommendations for vaccinated
-Under 12 are not vaccine qualified
-Michigan enacted laws forcing(in the middle of pandemic) fully packed classrooms, attached school funding
-To get full funding, using CDC guidance as an excuse, school districts are forcing to kids to attend in-person, many classes removed from virtual, remote classes are not taught by same school teachers and no option to switch between in-person and virtual throughout the semester.
-Where are the science teachers? They seem to happy to go along with politically/fund motivated decisions.

Delta + some unmasked kids + some/all unvaccinated kids + packed classrooms + poor ventilation + packed cafeterias with unmasked kids- One need not be a scientist to expect the outcome.

Science is just an excuse. Politics and money are prime driving factors even when 48 Million kids health is at risk.


You are complaining about the CDC but then post issues that are local to Michigan and the local school districts. The CDC issues guidance based on the science known. The politicians are the ones that drum up the complaints about flip flopping. If we had more people over 12 get vaccinated, we wouldn't need to worry about kids under 12 bringing it home and spreading it.

The cases, in case you have never noticed have gone in waves, and those waves demand different levels of masking. Instead of going with the science, certain education challenged politicians and local municipalities have taken differing approaches that have left us with another scary wave.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Even last week Fauci was telling on TV they have data showing indoor mask mandates are not required.

Fauci has been political, not a scientist, on masking.


The reality is we have a more contagious variant that is denying people the medical services they need (I posted enough links previously) that the voluntarily unvaccinated, as a group, need to realize they are being selfish. They are killing people by facilitating viral spread (I've posted enough links on how vaccines reduce transmission already in this thread) or, as a group, filling up the hospitals.

I wish people would talk to medical experts on how painful coronavirus is and how a coronavirus patient needs a lot of nurse hours that is denied someone more deserving.

I say voluntarily unvaccinated as kids under 12 cannot be vaccinated. My 12+ child has been fully vaccinated for a while. My younger child cannot be vaccinated.

I know kidney patients who must be extra cautious and the child of one of my dearest friends has cancer, they cannot build immunity.

So I do not socialize with the unvaccinated. I just politely tell them I am limiting my contacts until my child can be adequately vaccinated.

Saying this disease is like chicken pox is bad messaging. People have taken the wrong message.


One of my uncles was kicked out of a hospital to die as he was taking too many resources during the prior surge. My cousin did a heroic effort to save him (thanks to project warp speed oxygen and medicines). The medical staff have been released from contracts. They are not willing to do another year of hell to save people who did it to themselves.

Lightsaber
 
Derico
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:09 pm

c933103 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Late to the party on this, but am I correct in my understanding that as the variants evolve, they do so to be come more virulent, but less deadly?

This is only one possible scenario out of many possibility.
It have been the dominant pattern for other infectious diseases in the world's history, but that was back when we had neither world production caoacity of vaccines nor widespread medical care, and up until last century most patients didn't got effective care either, and hence more deadly virus strains eliminated themselves through natural selection, leaving us with less deadly strain.
How this will play out with all the modern medical technology and government regulations available is unknown.


Every single new variant is more virulent, attacks more cells, creates more severe disease, and has quicker onset of symptoms.

I'm pretty sure even as I know nothing about historical epidemiology, that this has never occurred in 4 billion years of life on Earth. Mutations can be guided by environmental challenges but they are also random. For this illness to know exactly how to mutate is uncanny, and I don't believe in coincidences so convenient to not only occur once, but three or four times now.

So the only choices are: either our unprecedented vaccination DURING a new pandemic, plus heavy usage of plasma and retroviral treatments, plus massive utilization of anti-bacterials is causing this virus to evolve at hyper speed (which two people who are doctors told me "no"), or this virus is being engineered by terrorists. Its A or B, it cannot be natural randomness.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:21 pm

Derico wrote:
c933103 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Late to the party on this, but am I correct in my understanding that as the variants evolve, they do so to be come more virulent, but less deadly?

This is only one possible scenario out of many possibility.
It have been the dominant pattern for other infectious diseases in the world's history, but that was back when we had neither world production caoacity of vaccines nor widespread medical care, and up until last century most patients didn't got effective care either, and hence more deadly virus strains eliminated themselves through natural selection, leaving us with less deadly strain.
How this will play out with all the modern medical technology and government regulations available is unknown.


Every single new variant is more virulent, attacks more cells, creates more severe disease, and has quicker onset of symptoms.


Do you have a source? I ask because while everything I'm seeing supports this new variant being more virulent, I've seen nothing to indicate it's more severe. If anything, all of my reading shows it's far less severe than the initial strains.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:28 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I say voluntarily unvaccinated as kids under 12 cannot be vaccinated. My 12+ child has been fully vaccinated for a while. My younger child cannot be vaccinated.

Lightsaber


I think under 12 are getting the short-end of the stick in this political game. Both politicians and many parents are ignoring the consequences.

In summer kids social interactions could be restricted and monitored, that is impossible in a school setting.
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:51 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Derico wrote:
c933103 wrote:
This is only one possible scenario out of many possibility.
It have been the dominant pattern for other infectious diseases in the world's history, but that was back when we had neither world production caoacity of vaccines nor widespread medical care, and up until last century most patients didn't got effective care either, and hence more deadly virus strains eliminated themselves through natural selection, leaving us with less deadly strain.
How this will play out with all the modern medical technology and government regulations available is unknown.


Every single new variant is more virulent, attacks more cells, creates more severe disease, and has quicker onset of symptoms.


Do you have a source? I ask because while everything I'm seeing supports this new variant being more virulent, I've seen nothing to indicate it's more severe. If anything, all of my reading shows it's far less severe than the initial strains.

I think it is technically not true that all the new variants are more virulent. Virus mutation is a basically random process you can't really control how it mitate. But due to survival of the fittest, those which became less virulent died, and all that's left are those that have become more virulent.
I have not see data on severity but per report Delta seems to have a significant different set of symptom among patients compares to original variants.
 
Derico
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:04 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Derico wrote:
c933103 wrote:
This is only one possible scenario out of many possibility.
It have been the dominant pattern for other infectious diseases in the world's history, but that was back when we had neither world production caoacity of vaccines nor widespread medical care, and up until last century most patients didn't got effective care either, and hence more deadly virus strains eliminated themselves through natural selection, leaving us with less deadly strain.
How this will play out with all the modern medical technology and government regulations available is unknown.


Every single new variant is more virulent, attacks more cells, creates more severe disease, and has quicker onset of symptoms.


Do you have a source? I ask because while everything I'm seeing supports this new variant being more virulent, I've seen nothing to indicate it's more severe. If anything, all of my reading shows it's far less severe than the initial strains.


It's what several government medical boards are saying just today and last 48 hours. I am not saying what I am saying lightly... but 1260 times more virulent? Onset of symptoms 48 hours quicker? Infects more types of cells more thoroughly? And now more severe in effect too?

I mean how many coincidences in the wrong direction is that? And it's the 2nd time it occurs (UK variant). I tended to think we are solely responsible because we are challenging the virus daily to get more "fit". Two doctors I spoke to say this is not quite how it would work. Then what is the alternative? Just completely random the virus gets worse in every category, on two independent and separate occasions? Sorry, not buying it.
Last edited by Derico on Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Derico
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:06 pm

c933103 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Derico wrote:

Every single new variant is more virulent, attacks more cells, creates more severe disease, and has quicker onset of symptoms.


Do you have a source? I ask because while everything I'm seeing supports this new variant being more virulent, I've seen nothing to indicate it's more severe. If anything, all of my reading shows it's far less severe than the initial strains.

I think it is technically not true that all the new variants are more virulent. Virus mutation is a basically random process you can't really control how it mitate. But due to survival of the fittest, those which became less virulent died, and all that's left are those that have become more virulent.
I have not see data on severity but per report Delta seems to have a significant different set of symptom among patients compares to original variants.


I thought of that, but how come then this is not being reported? I only have heard of a couple of variants. I also would agree there must be dozens of unidentified variants that have faded before being discovered. I really do hope that.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:08 am

This disease mutates bizarrely quick. That is ... sus.

Most variants do not matter. but as more money is thrown into testing, we are learning more.

Occasionally new variants have a transmission advantage. Those become variants of concern.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/07/1096572


Delta seems to progress faster. That seems to create worse cases.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/648 ... 0dangerous.

https://blackdoctor.org/covid-delta-new ... s-the-u-s/
We don’t know that the delta variant causes any disease that is any worse than the regular coronavirus,” Rathore said. “But it is much easier to infect others, so it spreads much more easily

The issue also seems to be natural immunity doesn't help much with the new variants and minor breakthroughs with vaccines.

I personally think people are so misbehaving they are getting worse exposure.

dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I say voluntarily unvaccinated as kids under 12 cannot be vaccinated. My 12+ child has been fully vaccinated for a while. My younger child cannot be vaccinated.

Lightsaber


I think under 12 are getting the short-end of the stick in this political game. Both politicians and many parents are ignoring the consequences.

In summer kids social interactions could be restricted and monitored, that is impossible in a school setting.

I want to scream on the kids not having a vaccine. Vaccines should not be political. I posted upthread how kids spread Covid19 (Including two prior links to kindergarten outbreaks). So vaccinating adults isn't enough.

grrrr ...

Lightsaber
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:20 am

Derico wrote:
Every single new variant is more virulent, attacks more cells, creates more severe disease, and has quicker onset of symptoms.


Not really, there were 4,000 sequenced mutations before Alpha became a variant. I didn't lookup latest count.

One infected person replicates billions, and spreads. Copying errors bound to happen. Doesn't matter whether host is vaccinated or not. This is where CDC failed the science.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:19 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Derico wrote:
Every single new variant is more virulent, attacks more cells, creates more severe disease, and has quicker onset of symptoms.


Not really, there were 4,000 sequenced mutations before Alpha became a variant. I didn't lookup latest count.

One infected person replicates billions, and spreads. Copying errors bound to happen. Doesn't matter whether host is vaccinated or not. This is where CDC failed the science.


The CDC didn't fail at science. The CDC can't react until we have a variant that actually spreads worse than the original virus . We have variants spreading because politicians and bad actors confused and lied to the people. Not the CDC.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:47 am

Interesting new release

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/f ... index.html

Highlights.
1. Less than .001% of those that are fully vaccinated have died from Covid. As of July 26. of 163,000,000 vaccinated adults in the US, there have been 1,263 deaths from breakthrough cases.
2. Most of the breakthrough cases -- about 74% -- occurred among adults 65 or older.
3. Experts continue to say that vaccination makes it less likely you'll catch Covid-19 in the first place. But for those who do, the findings suggest they could have a similar tendency to spread it as unvaccinated people.
4. Due to Number 3, the CDC upgraded the guidance to have vaccinated people wear masks indoors to save the unvaccinated folks that are still most at risk.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:10 am

casinterest wrote:
Interesting new release

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/f ... index.html

Highlights.
1. Less than .001% of those that are fully vaccinated have died from Covid. As of July 26. of 163,000,000 vaccinated adults in the US, there have been 1,263 deaths from breakthrough cases.
2. Most of the breakthrough cases -- about 74% -- occurred among adults 65 or older.
3. Experts continue to say that vaccination makes it less likely you'll catch Covid-19 in the first place. But for those who do, the findings suggest they could have a similar tendency to spread it as unvaccinated people.
4. Due to Number 3, the CDC upgraded the guidance to have vaccinated people wear masks indoors to save the unvaccinated folks that are still most at risk.


The unvaccinated take risks. We all take risks to a certain degree.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:13 am

casinterest wrote:
Interesting new release

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/f ... index.html

Highlights.
1. Less than .001% of those that are fully vaccinated have died from Covid. As of July 26. of 163,000,000 vaccinated adults in the US, there have been 1,263 deaths from breakthrough cases.
2. Most of the breakthrough cases -- about 74% -- occurred among adults 65 or older.
3. Experts continue to say that vaccination makes it less likely you'll catch Covid-19 in the first place. But for those who do, the findings suggest they could have a similar tendency to spread it as unvaccinated people.
4. Due to Number 3, the CDC upgraded the guidance to have vaccinated people wear masks indoors to save the unvaccinated folks that are still most at risk.

I wish they had quantified "less likely to catch it." Is that symptomatic?

This only frustrates me more that my youngest is too young for a vaccine.

Lightsaber
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:15 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Interesting new release

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/f ... index.html

Highlights.
1. Less than .001% of those that are fully vaccinated have died from Covid. As of July 26. of 163,000,000 vaccinated adults in the US, there have been 1,263 deaths from breakthrough cases.
2. Most of the breakthrough cases -- about 74% -- occurred among adults 65 or older.
3. Experts continue to say that vaccination makes it less likely you'll catch Covid-19 in the first place. But for those who do, the findings suggest they could have a similar tendency to spread it as unvaccinated people.
4. Due to Number 3, the CDC upgraded the guidance to have vaccinated people wear masks indoors to save the unvaccinated folks that are still most at risk.


The unvaccinated take risks. We all take risks to a certain degree.


They do, but the kids under 12 and immunocompromised at this point do not have a choice due to the vaccine not being approved yet. That is my only holdup.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:42 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Interesting new release

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/f ... index.html

Highlights.
1. Less than .001% of those that are fully vaccinated have died from Covid. As of July 26. of 163,000,000 vaccinated adults in the US, there have been 1,263 deaths from breakthrough cases.
2. Most of the breakthrough cases -- about 74% -- occurred among adults 65 or older.
3. Experts continue to say that vaccination makes it less likely you'll catch Covid-19 in the first place. But for those who do, the findings suggest they could have a similar tendency to spread it as unvaccinated people.
4. Due to Number 3, the CDC upgraded the guidance to have vaccinated people wear masks indoors to save the unvaccinated folks that are still most at risk.


The unvaccinated take risks. We all take risks to a certain degree.


The problem is their risks put others at risk. Like blowing tobacco smoke into passersby on a sidewalk. Irresponsible.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:04 am

casinterest wrote:
Interesting new release

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/f ... index.html

Highlights.
1. Less than .001% of those that are fully vaccinated have died from Covid. As of July 26. of 163,000,000 vaccinated adults in the US, there have been 1,263 deaths from breakthrough cases.
2. Most of the breakthrough cases -- about 74% -- occurred among adults 65 or older.
3. Experts continue to say that vaccination makes it less likely you'll catch Covid-19 in the first place. But for those who do, the findings suggest they could have a similar tendency to spread it as unvaccinated people.
4. Due to Number 3, the CDC upgraded the guidance to have vaccinated people wear masks indoors to save the unvaccinated folks that are still most at risk.


Selective analysis always leads to cheerleading.

If you take total number of vaccinated yes breakthrough numbers look negligible. Other countries looked at the data more detailed and found those breakthroughs occur in early vaccinated with waning immunity and proactively recommending booster shots.

Most of the vaccinations administered before June 2020. If CDC/FDA doesn't act quickly on booster shots only 10-20% population will have immunity in few months.
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:59 am

Derico wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Derico wrote:

Every single new variant is more virulent, attacks more cells, creates more severe disease, and has quicker onset of symptoms.


Do you have a source? I ask because while everything I'm seeing supports this new variant being more virulent, I've seen nothing to indicate it's more severe. If anything, all of my reading shows it's far less severe than the initial strains.


It's what several government medical boards are saying just today and last 48 hours. I am not saying what I am saying lightly... but 1260 times more virulent? Onset of symptoms 48 hours quicker? Infects more types of cells more thoroughly? And now more severe in effect too?

I mean how many coincidences in the wrong direction is that? And it's the 2nd time it occurs (UK variant). I tended to think we are solely responsible because we are challenging the virus daily to get more "fit". Two doctors I spoke to say this is not quite how it would work. Then what is the alternative? Just completely random the virus gets worse in every category, on two independent and separate occasions? Sorry, not buying it.

Quicker onset of symptom would actually be a good news, since reduced length of incubation period mean reduced chance of spreading, and countries with shorter quarantine period can be able to capture more cases (But I am still seeing news of Delta patients exprezsing symptoms only more than two weeks after initial possible contact from time to time)
Derico wrote:
c933103 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Do you have a source? I ask because while everything I'm seeing supports this new variant being more virulent, I've seen nothing to indicate it's more severe. If anything, all of my reading shows it's far less severe than the initial strains.

I think it is technically not true that all the new variants are more virulent. Virus mutation is a basically random process you can't really control how it mitate. But due to survival of the fittest, those which became less virulent died, and all that's left are those that have become more virulent.
I have not see data on severity but per report Delta seems to have a significant different set of symptom among patients compares to original variants.


I thought of that, but how come then this is not being reported? I only have heard of a couple of variants. I also would agree there must be dozens of unidentified variants that have faded before being discovered. I really do hope that.

Because those aren't news-worthy. Especially for all the named variants, they're named only because they've becoming concerning, and soreading around the world.
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:02 pm

casinterest wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Derico wrote:
Every single new variant is more virulent, attacks more cells, creates more severe disease, and has quicker onset of symptoms.


Not really, there were 4,000 sequenced mutations before Alpha became a variant. I didn't lookup latest count.

One infected person replicates billions, and spreads. Copying errors bound to happen. Doesn't matter whether host is vaccinated or not. This is where CDC failed the science.


The CDC didn't fail at science. The CDC can't react until we have a variant that actually spreads worse than the original virus . We have variants spreading because politicians and bad actors confused and lied to the people. Not the CDC.

CDC isn't legally/scientifically bounded to not react until threat become too much
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:19 pm

casinterest wrote:
Interesting new release

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/f ... index.html

Highlights.
1. Less than .001% of those that are fully vaccinated have died from Covid. As of July 26. of 163,000,000 vaccinated adults in the US, there have been 1,263 deaths from breakthrough cases.
2. Most of the breakthrough cases -- about 74% -- occurred among adults 65 or older.
3. Experts continue to say that vaccination makes it less likely you'll catch Covid-19 in the first place. But for those who do, the findings suggest they could have a similar tendency to spread it as unvaccinated people.
4. Due to Number 3, the CDC upgraded the guidance to have vaccinated people wear masks indoors to save the unvaccinated folks that are still most at risk.

1263 death and 6239 hospitalization out of 6587 breakthrough case
That's 95% hospitalization rate and 20% death rate for vaccinated individuals
Probably mean there are more unreported breakthrough infection among vaccinated who are milder.

lightsaber wrote:
I wish they had quantified "less likely to catch it." Is that symptomatic?

This only frustrates me more that my youngest is too young for a vaccine.

Lightsaber

https://amp.capecodtimes.com/amp/5347264001
Barnstable county is 67% fully vaccinated. Yet according to the CDC study in the CNN article - the same as the one I shared earlier - 74% infected are fully vaccinated, with asymptomatic cases taken into account. It doesn't seems to represent any quantifiable difference in readiness to be infected after getting vaccinated when facing delta

Aaron747 wrote:
The problem is their risks put others at risk. Like blowing tobacco smoke into passersby on a sidewalk. Irresponsible.

In this particular case, the information is that your risk to.spread to others is the same no matter you have taken the vaccine before or not. - Unlike - Tobacco smokers blowing smokes

dtw2hyd wrote:
Selective analysis always leads to cheerleading.

If you take total number of vaccinated yes breakthrough numbers look negligible. Other countries looked at the data more detailed and found those breakthroughs occur in early vaccinated with waning immunity and proactively recommending booster shots.

Most of the vaccinations administered before June 2020. If CDC/FDA doesn't act quickly on booster shots only 10-20% population will have immunity in few months.

The article do mention 74% breakthrough infections are among elderly, the group which got priority in getting vaccinated in the US.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:27 pm

c933103 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Most of the vaccinations administered before June 2020. If CDC/FDA doesn't act quickly on booster shots only 10-20% population will have immunity in few months.

The article do mention 74% breakthrough infections are among elderly, the group which got priority in getting vaccinated in the US.


Is age the only contributing factor? Israeli data shows breakthroughs happening in those vaccinated in Jan '20 than those from Apr '20. Lapsed time seems to more valid parameter.

Point, CDC is latching on to positive news and not able to see ahead to guide the country.

It took one year for CDC to accept SARS-V2 is airborne like smoke, not droplets. Scientific community was begging CDC to accept this scientific fact and change guidance, CDC refused to budge.

Fun part anti-Vaxxers and CDC are at same intelligence level and spread misinformation.

Example:
Anti-vaxxers were telling vaccinated people spread virus.
CDC was telling vaccinated people doesn't spread virus.
Both are wrong. Any COVID-19 infected person spread virus. Key is infection, not vaccination.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Interesting new release

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/f ... index.html

Highlights.
1. Less than .001% of those that are fully vaccinated have died from Covid. As of July 26. of 163,000,000 vaccinated adults in the US, there have been 1,263 deaths from breakthrough cases.
2. Most of the breakthrough cases -- about 74% -- occurred among adults 65 or older.
3. Experts continue to say that vaccination makes it less likely you'll catch Covid-19 in the first place. But for those who do, the findings suggest they could have a similar tendency to spread it as unvaccinated people.
4. Due to Number 3, the CDC upgraded the guidance to have vaccinated people wear masks indoors to save the unvaccinated folks that are still most at risk.


Selective analysis always leads to cheerleading.

If you take total number of vaccinated yes breakthrough numbers look negligible. Other countries looked at the data more detailed and found those breakthroughs occur in early vaccinated with waning immunity and proactively recommending booster shots.

Most of the vaccinations administered before June 2020. If CDC/FDA doesn't act quickly on booster shots only 10-20% population will have immunity in few months.


Booster shots are being looked into, but at this point the largest danger is the folks that won't get vaccinated. There will be new guidance as the risk profile changes, but for now we need vaccinations, and we need people to be careful as Covid spreads.


c933103 wrote:
1263 death and 6239 hospitalization out of 6587 breakthrough case
That's 95% hospitalization rate and 20% death rate for vaccinated individuals
Probably mean there are more unreported breakthrough infection among vaccinated who are milder.


The CDC is only looking at self reported breakthrough cases. The folks that never went to the hospital, may be more ,but the hospitalization rate(so far) and death rate(so far) are very low. We will have to see if it goes higher as this wave keeps going.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:37 pm

c933103 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Late to the party on this, but am I correct in my understanding that as the variants evolve, they do so to be come more virulent, but less deadly? If so,would this mean that eventually you'd see the majority of the population contracting the virus in some form, but being reduced in severity to that of a cold or the flu only?

For the record, I've had both my Moderna jabs and if more are recommended, I'll be in line when it's my turn.

Current theory is less deadly is because the most vulnerable (age 50+) are well vaccinated. Vaccines cut, but do not stop transmission (40% to 60% reduction in transmission is the current estimate, which on a Ro or 5+ isn't enough):
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-05- ... ssion.html

Vaccines make the illness shorter and milder for those who get it:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021 ... risks.html

The new variants will have "hyperlocal" outbreaks. In other words, it will get into unvaccinated, misbehaving populations and spread quickly
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-thi ... iant-covid

We'll need that 3rd jab. But the main problem is:
1. No vaccine for under age 12. :(
2. So many "know better" and are avoiding the vaccine. Some do well, some explain to overworked doctors they didn't believe in the virus.

Hospitals are once again denying service to non-coronavirus patients because Covid19 takes so many hours of care.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wIhXsxGkNo

I wish people understood how painful coronavirus is. The doctors have changed their standards of what they consider normal for pain medicine. Morphine is almost a given. Many need fentanyl. Before coronavirus, heroin (the most powerful medically prescribed pain killer) was something I only heard being used on dying cancer patients. Two of my doctor friends are prescribing so much for the coronavirus wards they are being audited monthly by the FDA as they are individually prescribing huge quantities as... it is needed with this disease.

Now 70% of hospital patients are out after 3 days of remdemsivier and high flow oxygen, but oh will their lungs burn for weeks.
Tocilizumab is the medicine all the coronavirus doctors I know swear by. Bummer for the guaranteed (100% of patients) negative long term side effects, but it stops people (mostly) from dying. If it doesn't work and remdemsivier didn't work, say your goodbyes (every coronavirus doctor I know says only a very few survive after that treatment).
https://www.goodrx.com/blog/coronavirus ... n-the-way/

I see tons of people latching onto new treatments, but many later are shown not to work or to have such bad side effects doctors cannot justify their use (Tocilizumab is nasty, but it works, so pick your poison).

Now most is a moot conversation for the vaccinated and viral load really matters (hence the return to mask wearing). I wish people lowing their mask knew the stats. The point is so they don't exhale so many virus into the room or inhale as much.

The hyper localization is important. The virus doesn't care if a state is well vaccinated when a neighborhood is poorly vaccinated. It will find the concert, bar, mega-church, office, or school full of the vulnerable and spread fast.

I hope people realize influenza will be back this winter and influenza+coronavirus is really bad. Every coronavirus doctor I know won't treat it as that is such a high risk case, they send the patients off to the few trama centers with ECMO machines which kill a lot of patients (its really risky hooking up a patient to such a machine and disconnecting them from such a machine).

Meh, there will be those who won't vaccinate.
I already posted links on how the virus reduces male fertility. Cest la vie. This might just be a self correcting problem.

Lightsaber

See CDC link I posted above. Vaccinated individuals don't have lower viral load.

First, very interesting link. Vaccinated breakthrough cases don't have a lower viral load. That is interesting. I noted a huge amount of symptoms among the breakthrough cases per your cdc link, which makes sense. If you have symptoms, you will have about the same viral load as an unvaccinated with the same symptoms.

I was referring to in general, the vaccinated are asymptomatic. As noted: Second, asymptomatic breakthrough infections might be underrepresented because of detection bias. Detection bias was off symptoms or I assume off assumed exposure and going to test. I noted other bias (e.g., concert was marketed to men, so more male infections).

I will agree the viral load of a sick person should be similar. As that study notes, there was self selection for symptoms. While a very interesting study, it didn't say what fraction of attendees were vaccinated. It notes fraction of cases vaccinated and how much of the state is vaccinated, but that is like the algebra problems that note numbers that have nothing to do with the study.

We can conclude people who feel ill enough to get a test have the same amount of viral load.
I note that "underlying medical conditions" was in 3 of 5 hospitalizations.

Unfortunately, we need to know more about the behavior of vaccinated vs. non-vaccinated to have a final conclusion. It is quite possible many more vaccinated were infected and were asymptomatic (low viral load) due to behavior that they felt invulnerable.

It is an interesting study as a majority of the hospital cases were vaccinated which is counter to the trend since then.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/h ... cases.html

I agree everyone should mask up indoors. That is a wise precaution.

Something with that study is showing self selection for a group. I don't know the details, but studies should help one predict the future. That study, while is very well done within its limits (extremely and impressively well done in fact), the fact there is no baseline on how many unvaccinated attended could be a bias in the exposed.

But we can agree, viral levels determine illness levels and those self selecting to be tested will likely be ill or known exposed to someone ill.

Lightsaber
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:53 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
c933103 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Most of the vaccinations administered before June 2020. If CDC/FDA doesn't act quickly on booster shots only 10-20% population will have immunity in few months.

The article do mention 74% breakthrough infections are among elderly, the group which got priority in getting vaccinated in the US.


Is age the only contributing factor? Israeli data shows breakthroughs happening in those vaccinated in Jan '20 than those from Apr '20. Lapsed time seems to more valid parameter.

Point, CDC is latching on to positive news and not able to see ahead to guide the country.

It took one year for CDC to accept SARS-V2 is airborne like smoke, not droplets. Scientific community was begging CDC to accept this scientific fact and change guidance, CDC refused to budge.

Fun part anti-Vaxxers and CDC are at same intelligence level and spread misinformation.

Example:
Anti-vaxxers were telling vaccinated people spread virus.
CDC was telling vaccinated people doesn't spread virus.
Both are wrong. Any COVID-19 infected person spread virus. Key is infection, not vaccination.

The studies do point out that ill infected people are as likely to spread vaccinated or not.

To others:
It points to the Israeli proposition that 3rd doses are required. The nearly 11 fold increase in the elderly points to the elderly (as expected) not having enough defense.
https://news.yahoo.com/pfizers-working- ... 35214.html

We need to age normalize the data.
How many age 12 through 17 were infected?
How many age 18 through 39 (prime health, adults)
how man age 40-59 (middle aged)
How many age 60-74 (silver setters)
How many age 75+ (or pick different ages, these I think are the natural groups to quantify).
How many obese vs. not obese? (It is a virus that loves to multiply in fat cells.)

What percentage who attended were unvaccinated. Stating the county percentages doesn't necessarily add up. I know to many vaccinated who think they are impervious and ignore viral loading. If you go to a crowded bar without a mask, you will get exposed to enough virus to have a break through. So the information is interesting, but not complete. The anti-vax or shall we call them afraid are going to extrapolate too far. The hospitals are filled with 97% unvaccinated!
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/16/10170128 ... vaccinated

There is a huge disconnect between that study and the national reality. How does that one study have a majority of hospitalized vaccinated but nationally it isn't a slight majority, but a *vast majority* in the hospital are the unvaccinated. :scratchchin:

The study lists well its self selection. That is a dang good study. But the authors note not to make the conclusions being made as they were great scientists.
We know the elderly have trouble building any immunity. If 74% of breakthroughs are the elderly, how about offering age 50+ the 3rd jab today? (Yes, I include myself.) :spin:

5X to 11X the protection is awesome. Heck, offer everyone the 3rd jab today say minimum 6 weeks after 2nd jab and let age 9+ just get the adult dose (I'd march everyone in my house down for a vaccine immediately).

Vaccines work. Not perfect and a good chunk of the population wants to scare or is scared. But let's take the 30,000 foot view.
Are vaccines slowing the spread and protecting a lot of people? yes.
Are vaccines keeping people out of the hospital? Yes
Are vaccines 100% effective. No, we knew that since the first vaccine was administered.

We need to repeat most ending up in the hospital are the unvaccinated. The fact elderly, obese, cancer and kidney patients also end up there is no surprise (they cannot build as effective an immunity). Time for jab #3. We knew boosters would be required. Cest la vie.

Lightsaber
 
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:09 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I say voluntarily unvaccinated as kids under 12 cannot be vaccinated. My 12+ child has been fully vaccinated for a while. My younger child cannot be vaccinated.

Lightsaber


I think under 12 are getting the short-end of the stick in this political game. Both politicians and many parents are ignoring the consequences.

In summer kids social interactions could be restricted and monitored, that is impossible in a school setting.


Normally it requires FDA clinical trial data to approve for younger. Some people feel the FDA was way too hasty in the EUA of these vaccines even in adults. Are you now saying that the FDA is dragging its feet for children?
Seems like two opposite complaints - the FDA is too hasty/reckless, and the FDA is too slow to act.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:09 pm

c933103 wrote:
Bad News:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/ ... mm7031e2_w
In July 2021, following multiple large public events in a Barnstable County, Massachusetts, town, 469 COVID-19 cases were identified among Massachusetts residents who had traveled to the town during July 3–17; 346 (74%) occurred in fully vaccinated persons.

Not sure what is the town's vaccination rate, but now in this town, the majority of coronavirus patients are vaccinated individuals, according to this report.
[/quote]

So I think this might not be as terrible as it initially looks. This was "Bear Week" in Provincetown, a major "gaycation" destination. 89% of the cases were men. Not only that, but most bars and restaurants in Provincetown were checking and requiring vaccination status at the door. That means that the vaccination rate of this particular population likely exceeded 90%. I will point out that almost everyone there would have been 1) >18yo 2) College-educated, 3) Politically left-leaning, 4) White, Asian, or another overrepresented minority. If the vaccination rate was 100%, then all breakthrough cases would be vaccinated. But if the vaccination rate was 95%, then you're still looking at >80% vaccine efficacy with 75% of breakthrough cases vaccinated. Also, tens of thousands of people were in Ptown that week and there were only some 400+ identified cases.

Of the cases who were admitted, three had J&J (of which two had comorbidities), one was unvaccinated, and one had two doses of Pfizer with the last dose in May. I know about the last case because he's my friend. We're a bit puzzled as to why he got so sick, but he is back home and on the mend now. One of his partners (2x Moderna) tested positive and has had mild symptoms. His other partner (2x Moderna) has been negative and asymptomatic.

As for the viral loads, it is true that the initial viral loads are similar, a study out of Singapore showed that mRNA-vaccinated breakthrough cases with the Delta Variant controlled their Ct values after 4 days, going above 30 on day 10-11 while the unvaccinated infections continued to have Ct values below 30 for over 21 days (figure 1).

I'm definitely of the opinion that a booster will help, but I think that at this point we can only rely on vaccines to prevent severe symptoms and hospitalizations while this virus reaches an endemic equilibrium. Once it does that, it will infect almost all children before age 5 and then memory immunity will turn it into a minor upper respiratory infection on reinfection. But between animal reservoirs and a lack of sterilizing mucosal immunity, we are never getting rid of this virus.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:16 pm

DocLightning wrote:
But between animal reservoirs and a lack of sterilizing mucosal immunity, we are never getting rid of this virus.


And the sooner everyone accepts this scientific truth and stops the perpetual fearmongering, the better off we will be.
 
CRJ200flyer
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:11 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Speaking about a 3rd shot...if you wanted a third shot can you get one? Or is it "verboten"?

Here in the USA, if you go to a different Pharmacy and neglect to mention you had a prior vaccine, they won't know. It isn't allowed if you talk about it. Many of my friends who had J&J decided to up their vaccine and they had mRNA (everyone I know had Moderna who did this, but I have no idea why).

It is recommended in Israel for the vulnerable.

I'm going to another state soon for vacation, there is no way they would know if I had a vaccine and I could get a 3rd jab easy.

Lightsaber


I understand the pharmacy won’t know, but won’t their insurance figure it out when it’s submitted again?
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:13 pm

 
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DocLightning
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:21 pm

CRJ200flyer wrote:
I understand the pharmacy won’t know, but won’t their insurance figure it out when it’s submitted again?


I got mine through work. I'm pretty sure my insurance never had anything to do with it.

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