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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:17 pm

casinterest wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
New data from Israel. The change in slope of the vaccinated post booster is staggering:
https://www.republicworld.com/amp/world ... drive.html

What do you call the unvaccinated during a pandemic?
- The control group

The control group slope didn't budge.

R for vaccinated over age 60 dropped (barely) below 1. I believe as Israel triple jabs more, as well as physical measures, we will see a sharp drop in cases.

The rapid divergence in R after 8/16 is impressive. This is definitive data. I thank Israel for providing such information to the world.



Adding the image for effect. It definately seems that the booster is needed.

Image

I went back through the dates by age group (using links posted previously in this thread). These are announcement dates, not jab dates:

Age 60+ started Friday 7/30
Age 50+ 8/12
Age 40+ 8/21
Age 30+ 8/24

So the "knee in the curve" is 8/16. That is 11 days after the average day for age 60+ (assuming an even distribution of jabs).

That means on Friday we should expect a "knee in the curve" for age 50+ (probably not obvious for a week or so).

By using the 11 days from the average and assuming forward groups take a week, that means by about 9/14 Israel will really have this under control. That is good news and bad news...

Lightsaber
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:20 pm

lightsaber wrote:
casinterest wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
New data from Israel. The change in slope of the vaccinated post booster is staggering:
https://www.republicworld.com/amp/world ... drive.html

What do you call the unvaccinated during a pandemic?
- The control group

The control group slope didn't budge.

R for vaccinated over age 60 dropped (barely) below 1. I believe as Israel triple jabs more, as well as physical measures, we will see a sharp drop in cases.

The rapid divergence in R after 8/16 is impressive. This is definitive data. I thank Israel for providing such information to the world.



Adding the image for effect. It definately seems that the booster is needed.

Image

I went back through the dates by age group (using links posted previously in this thread). These are announcement dates, not jab dates:

Age 60+ started Friday 7/30
Age 50+ 8/12
Age 40+ 8/21
Age 30+ 8/24

So the "knee in the curve" is 8/16. That is 11 days after the average day for age 60+ (assuming an even distribution of jabs).

That means on Friday we should expect a "knee in the curve" for age 50+ (probably not obvious for a week or so).

By using the 11 days from the average and assuming forward groups take a week, that means by about 9/14 Israel will really have this under control. That is good news and bad news...

Lightsaber



Guess we can look forward to another shot in the US, in the next 4 -6 months.
 
flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The graph showed encouraging trends.

Which is a great many degrees of difference from “cases are dropping across the board.”

lightsaber wrote:
Revisionist? Much of the early discussion was on vaccinating the young to help protect the old:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32959006/

And? That doesn’t translate to the notion that we would be singularly relying on the vaccines to arrest transmission. The principal stressor of Covid on society has been it’s overburdening of the healthcare system, particularly by the vulnerable and the elderly which is why they were prioritized first for vaccination.

https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/25/cov ... mplicated/
Some scientists have noted that a year ago when the Phase 3 trials for these vaccines were first underway, the world would have been ecstatic at the prospect of vaccines that prevented severe Covid infections in most vaccinated people. But vaccine efficacy estimates in the 90% range against even mild infections reset what we thought these vaccines would be able to do for us.

Vincent Munster, chief of the virus ecology section at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases’ Rocky Mountain Laboratories in Montana, also thinks our expectations may be unrealistic.

He and his team tested some Covid vaccines in the early stages of development, before human trials were conducted. In animals, the vaccines did not block infection in the upper airways, but did protect the lungs. If the animal work is predictive of what happens in humans, it would mean vaccinated people could catch colds or experience flu-like symptoms if they contract SARS-2, but would not — in most cases — develop severe or life-threatening illness.

“We were making a vaccine against the severe Covid and, all of a sudden, all these expectations of transmission-blocking were piled up on these vaccines,” he said.


lightsaber wrote:
I posted a link on estimates on prior vaccinated who would triple jab. Going from memory it was 70 to 130 million of about 170 million vaccinated.

So anywhere from less-than-half to nearly 80%, that’s a pretty useless estimate.

lightsaber wrote:
Because of how large the boost in immunity is, it should last longer than the 2nd jab.

We really have no clue at this point besides knowing it’s going to induce another temporary influx of neutralizing antibodies that may or may not last longer.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:54 pm

casinterest wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Adding the image for effect. It definately seems that the booster is needed.

Image

I went back through the dates by age group (using links posted previously in this thread). These are announcement dates, not jab dates:

Age 60+ started Friday 7/30
Age 50+ 8/12
Age 40+ 8/21
Age 30+ 8/24

So the "knee in the curve" is 8/16. That is 11 days after the average day for age 60+ (assuming an even distribution of jabs).

That means on Friday we should expect a "knee in the curve" for age 50+ (probably not obvious for a week or so).

By using the 11 days from the average and assuming forward groups take a week, that means by about 9/14 Israel will really have this under control. That is good news and bad news...

Lightsaber



Guess we can look forward to another shot in the US, in the next 4 -6 months.

If you mean 3rd, yes. I've been reading some scientific discussions on the 3rd jab should last longer. Now, I'm choosing not to post a link as I don't want some using the "sausage factory" of scientific discussion for their purposes. But I posted before on Mumps and how the 3rd Jab has great effectiveness and durability. I think jab #4 will be a variant booster.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:33 pm

casinterest wrote:
Boom.
Here we go..

Delta is going to charge the Unvaccinated more for health insurance.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/25/business ... index.html

Delta says starting September 12, any US employee who is not fully vaccinated will be required to take a weekly coronavirus test "while community case rates are high." The airline says those with a positive result will need to isolate and remain out of the workplace.
Beginning November 1, all unvaccinated Delta employees "enrolled in Delta's account-based health care plan will be subject to a $200 monthly surcharge."
"The average hospital stay for Covid-19 has cost Delta $40,000 per person," said the airline. "This surcharge will be necessary to address the financial risk the decision to not vaccinate is creating for our company."

Now that is a BOOM!


flyguy89 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The graph showed encouraging trends.

Which is a great many degrees of difference from “cases are dropping across the board.”

lightsaber wrote:
Revisionist? Much of the early discussion was on vaccinating the young to help protect the old:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32959006/

And? That doesn’t translate to the notion that we would be singularly relying on the vaccines to arrest transmission. The principal stressor of Covid on society has been it’s overburdening of the healthcare system, particularly by the vulnerable and the elderly which is why they were prioritized first for vaccination.

https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/25/cov ... mplicated/
Some scientists have noted that a year ago when the Phase 3 trials for these vaccines were first underway, the world would have been ecstatic at the prospect of vaccines that prevented severe Covid infections in most vaccinated people. But vaccine efficacy estimates in the 90% range against even mild infections reset what we thought these vaccines would be able to do for us.

Vincent Munster, chief of the virus ecology section at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases’ Rocky Mountain Laboratories in Montana, also thinks our expectations may be unrealistic.

He and his team tested some Covid vaccines in the early stages of development, before human trials were conducted. In animals, the vaccines did not block infection in the upper airways, but did protect the lungs. If the animal work is predictive of what happens in humans, it would mean vaccinated people could catch colds or experience flu-like symptoms if they contract SARS-2, but would not — in most cases — develop severe or life-threatening illness.

“We were making a vaccine against the severe Covid and, all of a sudden, all these expectations of transmission-blocking were piled up on these vaccines,” he said.


lightsaber wrote:
I posted a link on estimates on prior vaccinated who would triple jab. Going from memory it was 70 to 130 million of about 170 million vaccinated.

So anywhere from less-than-half to nearly 80%, that’s a pretty useless estimate.

lightsaber wrote:
Because of how large the boost in immunity is, it should last longer than the 2nd jab.

We really have no clue at this point besides knowing it’s going to induce another temporary influx of neutralizing antibodies that may or may not last longer.

The negotiating strategy is called "get another rock" where no information is good enough. We must agree to disagree. If you come up with scientific evidence countradicting my links, I will be interested. However, look at the last chart we have been discussing. 11 days after 3rd jab a huge improvement. I have no idea why you would think a 3rd jab wouldn't perform as per my reference on prior vaccines. I'm interested in the science. The 3rd jabs are already planned and going forward as per prior links in this thread. If you would like people to change opinion, please give new information to change their; this will be my last reply unless to discuss scientific evidence.

Lightsaber
 
flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:16 pm

lightsaber wrote:
However, look at the last chart we have been discussing. 11 days after 3rd jab a huge improvement.

In the vaccinated, sure, but this pandemic isn't being driven by the vaccinated, and it isn't the vaccinated who are flooding hospitals.

lightsaber wrote:
I have no idea why you would think a 3rd jab wouldn't perform as per my reference on prior vaccines. I'm interested in the science.

And the science tells us unvaccinated populations will continue to be a breeding ground for variants that will further wear on the vaccine's efficacy. By blanketly triple jabbing otherwise healthy vaccinated people (and again I agree a third shot makes sense for the elderly/vulnerable) with a non-variant targeted vaccine, you're gaining a temporary and marginal increase in efficacy against infection for a population that isn't the principle driver of transmission at the expense of production resources (not just the vaccines themselves but also syringes, viles, etc.) that could otherwise go toward unvaccinated populations. Like you said agree to disagree, but I think you're going to be disappointed at the uptake in the general population for third jabs especially considering that in just a few months after we're going to have true boosters available.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:24 pm

It looks like booster to, per WSJ article, be approved 6 months after jab #2:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/biden-admi ... 1629919356
Federal regulators are likely to approve a Covid-19 booster shot for vaccinated adults starting at least six months after the previous dose rather than the eight-month gap they previously announced, a person familiar with the plans said, as the Biden administration steps up preparations for delivering boosters to the public.

Just waiting for official news.

Lightsaber
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:37 pm

Great news for India. At 49.5% of adults have one jab.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 1-amp.html

14.5% of adults two jabs
35% of adults one jab

Now, according to this link, 40% of the population of India is children, India will have an incredible challenge vaccinating the children. However, it doesn't take away from soon having a jab in half the adults.
https://www.cry.org/why-children/#:~:te ... population

Lightsaber
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Great news for India. At 49.5% of adults have one jab.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 1-amp.html

14.5% of adults two jabs
35% of adults one jab

Now, according to this link, 40% of the population of India is children, India will have an incredible challenge vaccinating the children. However, it doesn't take away from soon having a jab in half the adults.
https://www.cry.org/why-children/#:~:te ... population

Lightsaber


I think only 35% would have one jab. Most stats don't separate out the two jabs from the one jab, since technically some of the vaccines only need one jab.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:55 am

Covid Vaccination Demographics in the US for those keeping track.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-t ... s-n1277514

It is staggering how political the vaccination has become
And here are the American adults who say they’ve already been vaccinated — broken down by demographic group:


..........
Democrats: 88 percent
Independents: 60 percent
Republicans: 55 percent
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:28 am

 
tommy1808
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:33 am

casinterest wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
J&J submitting data to FDA for booster:
https://news.yahoo.com/j-j-says-booster ... 50666.html
J&J said in a press release on Wednesday that after the booster shot, antibody levels were nine times higher than after the original single-dose vaccine.

I personally would like more information. Ln(9)~2.2. That is a significant improvement.

Lightsaber



I always wondered why J&J didn't go for two shots from the get go.


Didn´t they try in the beginning and didn´t see an improvement with both shots being only weeks apart?

best regards
Thomas
 
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BaconButty
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:53 am

tommy1808 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
J&J submitting data to FDA for booster:
https://news.yahoo.com/j-j-says-booster ... 50666.html
J&J said in a press release on Wednesday that after the booster shot, antibody levels were nine times higher than after the original single-dose vaccine.

I personally would like more information. Ln(9)~2.2. That is a significant improvement.

Lightsaber



I always wondered why J&J didn't go for two shots from the get go.


Didn´t they try in the beginning and didn´t see an improvement with both shots being only weeks apart?

best regards
Thomas


There was a phase 3 trial of the 2 dose regime run from the UK that started in mid November 2020, first enrollment early February 2021. I kept my eye out, but the interim results were never published, or if they were, it was in the outer Mongolia medical journal in Welsh. Draw your own conclusions, mine would be that a second dose too soon is as disruptive as it is in AZ.

Here's the November announcement
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jans ... -in-the-uk

Also
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04614948

If anyone has better Google skills than me, I'd be interested in the results. Initial data should have been available June or so.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:31 am

Israel adds more data:
16 days after booster, 95% effective
One week after booster, 86% effective
https://www.jewishpress.com/headline/16 ... 021/08/25/

Now, 16 days after a booster should be about peak immunity, but that is great news. I look forward to finding out the effectiveness with time.

BaconButty wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


I always wondered why J&J didn't go for two shots from the get go.


Didn´t they try in the beginning and didn´t see an improvement with both shots being only weeks apart?

best regards
Thomas


There was a phase 3 trial of the 2 dose regime run from the UK that started in mid November 2020, first enrollment early February 2021. I kept my eye out, but the interim results were never published, or if they were, it was in the outer Mongolia medical journal in Welsh. Draw your own conclusions, mine would be that a second dose too soon is as disruptive as it is in AZ.

Here's the November announcement
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jans ... -in-the-uk

Also
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04614948

If anyone has better Google skills than me, I'd be interested in the results. Initial data should have been available June or so.

I tried searching and I couldn't find results. Other than the papers of the upper Nile medical society, in ancient Gaelic. ;) I suspect the timing between doses needs to be larger than prior trials too.
One reason that I have hope for longer term immunity, other than other vaccines really have good long term immunity with 3 jabs, is the long interval.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:30 pm

Novavax already testing a booster:
https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/ ... ccine.html

When I read the details, it is because imniosupresed had insufficient reaction to 2-jabs, a common issue.

Manufacturing issues. I've heard rumors of botched quality control, e.g., verification of what batch of ingredients goes into what batch of vaccine has not met expected standards. e.g., while is is bad Moderna put out over 1.6 million doses of "bad" vaccine, they will find out why and fix (I suspect an ingredient, but it could be a filter). Any way, find out the offending vendor, lot, and fix the issue. That is why regulated industries have quality processes.
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 021-08-25/

Lightsaber
 
stratosphere
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:18 pm

casinterest wrote:
Boom.
Here we go..

Delta is going to charge the Unvaccinated more for health insurance.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/25/business ... index.html

Delta says starting September 12, any US employee who is not fully vaccinated will be required to take a weekly coronavirus test "while community case rates are high." The airline says those with a positive result will need to isolate and remain out of the workplace.
Beginning November 1, all unvaccinated Delta employees "enrolled in Delta's account-based health care plan will be subject to a $200 monthly surcharge."
"The average hospital stay for Covid-19 has cost Delta $40,000 per person," said the airline. "This surcharge will be necessary to address the financial risk the decision to not vaccinate is creating for our company."


I really don't know where something like this ends. What about obese workers? You gonna charge them too? Diabetes cost companies a ton of money. Some I know do penalize for smoking and some like Alaska Airlines wont employ you if you smoke. But I have a friend who works in a medical building here in MS he is an HVAC guy they mandated the medical staff all be vaccinated 90% of the nurses quit. Even of my friends that most did not get this vaccine none of them are anti vax they are just anti THIS vax. I am vaccinated but to tell you the truth I was hoping for some normalness to my life and I don't have it. I don't care what the MSM preaches. This vaccine while it may have been effective against the original variant I don't believe it has anywhere near the effectiveness in the current Delta variant . Add to that another person I know in the health care field has told me they don't have to report anyone to the CDC who has COVID that has been vaccinated in other words breakthrough infection. So right there tells me the numbers are skewed to always show the unvaccinated as the majority of hospitalizations. Too much conflicting information keeps coming out. First was that vaccinated people are not carriers and have less viral load than the unvaccinated. Then another one comes out and says they carry the same viral load vaccinated or not. I know science is always evolving but this indicates to me that they do not know enough about this virus or this vaccine. Now I am on board with masks and social distancing. The schools down here started up several weeks ago and the mistake I think they made besides no masks for kids they took down all the plexiglass barriers and stopped temperature checks my friend has 4 kids in high school it only took 2 days of in person school for one of them to come down with COVID and spread it to two families they have now closed the schools here for at least 2 weeks . So the argument the right seems to be making is not valid either. The first variant kids didn't seem to be spreaders or even get sick from it . This is not the case with Delta. So mitigation strategies need to be in place. I am not going to keep chasing this vaccine looking for boosters every 90 days to cover new variants. I have lost what little confidence I did have in it. I am back to staying away from people and wearing my mask . Each person can make their own decisions.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:30 pm

stratosphere wrote:
I am back to staying away from people and wearing my mask . Each person can make their own decisions.


With all the misinformation and dumb people out there, that doesn’t seem to be a recipe for success exiting this mess.

I hope you and family are able to stay protected by isolating. Just a couple things:

1. ‘Believe’ is not relevant in any public health context
2. Paragraphs are your friend if you’d like people to track ideas through a long post
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:47 pm

stratosphere wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Boom.
Here we go..

Delta is going to charge the Unvaccinated more for health insurance.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/25/business ... index.html

Delta says starting September 12, any US employee who is not fully vaccinated will be required to take a weekly coronavirus test "while community case rates are high." The airline says those with a positive result will need to isolate and remain out of the workplace.
Beginning November 1, all unvaccinated Delta employees "enrolled in Delta's account-based health care plan will be subject to a $200 monthly surcharge."
"The average hospital stay for Covid-19 has cost Delta $40,000 per person," said the airline. "This surcharge will be necessary to address the financial risk the decision to not vaccinate is creating for our company."


I really don't know where something like this ends. What about obese workers? You gonna charge them too? Diabetes cost companies a ton of money. Some I know do penalize for smoking and some like Alaska Airlines wont employ you if you smoke. But I have a friend who works in a medical building here in MS he is an HVAC guy they mandated the medical staff all be vaccinated 90% of the nurses quit. Even of my friends that most did not get this vaccine none of them are anti vax they are just anti THIS vax. I am vaccinated but to tell you the truth I was hoping for some normalness to my life and I don't have it. I don't care what the MSM preaches. This vaccine while it may have been effective against the original variant I don't believe it has anywhere near the effectiveness in the current Delta variant . Add to that another person I know in the health care field has told me they don't have to report anyone to the CDC who has COVID that has been vaccinated in other words breakthrough infection. So right there tells me the numbers are skewed to always show the unvaccinated as the majority of hospitalizations. Too much conflicting information keeps coming out. First was that vaccinated people are not carriers and have less viral load than the unvaccinated. Then another one comes out and says they carry the same viral load vaccinated or not. I know science is always evolving but this indicates to me that they do not know enough about this virus or this vaccine. Now I am on board with masks and social distancing. The schools down here started up several weeks ago and the mistake I think they made besides no masks for kids they took down all the plexiglass barriers and stopped temperature checks my friend has 4 kids in high school it only took 2 days of in person school for one of them to come down with COVID and spread it to two families they have now closed the schools here for at least 2 weeks . So the argument the right seems to be making is not valid either. The first variant kids didn't seem to be spreaders or even get sick from it . This is not the case with Delta. So mitigation strategies need to be in place. I am not going to keep chasing this vaccine looking for boosters every 90 days to cover new variants. I have lost what little confidence I did have in it. I am back to staying away from people and wearing my mask . Each person can make their own decisions.



Not sure what to say here, but "Believe" is not the same as reading the direct sources. Stop paying attention to your "news" sources and second hand information and look at the CDC docs yourself.

First, important note from the CDC, using CNBC for consolidation purposes.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/cdc-stu ... covid.html
Unvaccinated people are about 29 times more likely to be hospitalized with Covid-19 than those who are fully vaccinated, according to a CDC study released Tuesday.
The new study also found that unvaccinated people were nearly five times more likely to be infected with Covid than vaccinated people.
The data is in line with comments from federal and state health officials, who have been saying for weeks that millions of unvaccinated Americans have been putting themselves at serious risk.


So the vaccines work. You may get sick ( while 5 unvaccinated get sick), but you have a 95-96% chance of staying out of the hospital vs an unvaccinated individual.



CDC Data:
Those lines on the bottom are the vaccinated.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e1.htm
Image
 
SL1200MK2
Posts: 220
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:22 pm

stratosphere wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Boom.
Here we go..

Delta is going to charge the Unvaccinated more for health insurance.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/25/business ... index.html

Delta says starting September 12, any US employee who is not fully vaccinated will be required to take a weekly coronavirus test "while community case rates are high." The airline says those with a positive result will need to isolate and remain out of the workplace.
Beginning November 1, all unvaccinated Delta employees "enrolled in Delta's account-based health care plan will be subject to a $200 monthly surcharge."
"The average hospital stay for Covid-19 has cost Delta $40,000 per person," said the airline. "This surcharge will be necessary to address the financial risk the decision to not vaccinate is creating for our company."


I really don't know where something like this ends. What about obese workers? You gonna charge them too? Diabetes cost companies a ton of money. Some I know do penalize for smoking and some like Alaska Airlines wont employ you if you smoke. But I have a friend who works in a medical building here in MS he is an HVAC guy they mandated the medical staff all be vaccinated 90% of the nurses quit. Even of my friends that most did not get this vaccine none of them are anti vax they are just anti THIS vax. I am vaccinated but to tell you the truth I was hoping for some normalness to my life and I don't have it. I don't care what the MSM preaches. This vaccine while it may have been effective against the original variant I don't believe it has anywhere near the effectiveness in the current Delta variant . Add to that another person I know in the health care field has told me they don't have to report anyone to the CDC who has COVID that has been vaccinated in other words breakthrough infection. So right there tells me the numbers are skewed to always show the unvaccinated as the majority of hospitalizations. Too much conflicting information keeps coming out. First was that vaccinated people are not carriers and have less viral load than the unvaccinated. Then another one comes out and says they carry the same viral load vaccinated or not. I know science is always evolving but this indicates to me that they do not know enough about this virus or this vaccine. Now I am on board with masks and social distancing. The schools down here started up several weeks ago and the mistake I think they made besides no masks for kids they took down all the plexiglass barriers and stopped temperature checks my friend has 4 kids in high school it only took 2 days of in person school for one of them to come down with COVID and spread it to two families they have now closed the schools here for at least 2 weeks . So the argument the right seems to be making is not valid either. The first variant kids didn't seem to be spreaders or even get sick from it . This is not the case with Delta. So mitigation strategies need to be in place. I am not going to keep chasing this vaccine looking for boosters every 90 days to cover new variants. I have lost what little confidence I did have in it. I am back to staying away from people and wearing my mask . Each person can make their own decisions.


“But I have a friend who works in a medical building here in MS he is an HVAC guy they mandated the medical staff all be vaccinated 90% of the nurses quit“

While I do realize this is in Missouri, do you have a source beyond your HVAC friend about the 10% of nurses that stayed on-board due to the vaccine mandate?
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:35 pm

https://news.now.com/home/hot/player?ne ... 7549&hot=1
Expert in Hong Kong claim, with variants, it is impossible to eliminate the virus through vaccination, the idea is now unrealistic, but everyone who can be vaccinated should be vaccinated, in order to protect their own health and avoid severe case which would burden the public health system.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475
There is now a study on side effects of Pfizer vaccine using half of Israel as data source through insurer, involving more than 2.4 million vaccinated individuals.
They found increased risk in myocarditis, lymphadenopathy, appendicitis, and herpes zoster infection in the 42 days after getting vaccinated.
But they also compared it with coronavirus infection which carries very strong risk and could also induce like myocarditis
It also mentioned while the study cover short and mid term risk of vaccines in clinical context, further studies will be needed to see potential long term adverse effect
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:45 am

c933103 wrote:
https://news.now.com/home/hot/player?newsId=447549&hot=1
Expert in Hong Kong claim, with variants, it is impossible to eliminate the virus through vaccination, the idea is now unrealistic, but everyone who can be vaccinated should be vaccinated, in order to protect their own health and avoid severe case which would burden the public health system.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475

There is also the benefit of the vaccine:
https://www.osfhealthcare.org/blog/full ... to-others/
The good news is that data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) shows while COVID-19 infections do occur in fully vaccinated people, these instances appear to be exceptionally rare.

“We do not have conclusive proof. But more and more studies and real-world evidence points to fully vaccinated people, who are not immunocompromised, are less likely to transmit the virus if they become infected,” said Brian Laird, PharmD, manager of Pharmacy Operations at OSF HealthCare Heart of Mary Medical Center in Urbana, Illinois.


So vaccinate to slow the spread. The issue is with Delta, before the booster, Ro> 1 per Israeli data that was prior in this thread.

However, I am becoming cynical. Just too many won't vaccinate and the production, which I noted 1.15 billion doses per month going into arms earlier in the thread, it isn't enough. This means more variants and eventually variants that can thrive in a vaccinated population. Ugh.

We all want normal, I don't know when that will be.
I feel for the doctors and in particular the nurses in the hospitals.
Lightsaber
 
stratosphere
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:00 am

Aaron747 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
I am back to staying away from people and wearing my mask . Each person can make their own decisions.


With all the misinformation and dumb people out there, that doesn’t seem to be a recipe for success exiting this mess.

I hope you and family are able to stay protected by isolating. Just a couple things:

1. ‘Believe’ is not relevant in any public health context
2. Paragraphs are your friend if you’d like people to track ideas through a long post


Yes sorry about the run on . Should have broke it up .
 
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Francoflier
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:02 am

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58347434

Another report confirming the high benefit/risk ratio of the vaccine (AZ in this case).
 
art
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:48 am

Francoflier wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58347434

Another report confirming the high benefit/risk ratio of the vaccine (AZ in this case).


So, more evidence showing that blood clotting problems are about 10 times more likely in people who become infected with COVID-19 than in people receiving vaccination.

I would like to see the blood clotting data/analysis broken down as follows

1 Prevailing incidence
2 Incidence in people infected with COVID-19
3 Incidence in vaccinees
4 Incidence in vaccinees infected with COVID-19

Perhaps it is in the study (which I have not read) but has not been reported.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:54 am

It looks like israel's boosters are starting to tame hospitalizations. Now, I realize this data gets revised:
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-hospitalizations
(I tried to share the image, I respect the website seems to not allow that).

However cases in Israel are still skyrocketing!
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... EU~FRA~ISR

Upthread I predicted it would take until mid-September for the booster program to really tame the outbreak.

art wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58347434

Another report confirming the high benefit/risk ratio of the vaccine (AZ in this case).


So, more evidence showing that blood clotting problems are about 10 times more likely in people who become infected with COVID-19 than in people receiving vaccination.

I would like to see the blood clotting data/analysis broken down as follows

1 Prevailing incidence
2 Incidence in people infected with COVID-19
3 Incidence in vaccinees
4 Incidence in vaccinees infected with COVID-19

Perhaps it is in the study (which I have not read) but has not been reported.

I too would like to see such data. The MD/PH.D.s are a wee bit busy though. ;)

Lightsaber

Late edit, more evidence the vaccine helps. In San Diego (a lovely area of California) the unvaccinated are 32 times more likely to end up in the hospital:
https://fox5sandiego.com/news/coronavir ... accinated/

Being willfully unvaccinated during a pandemic is like playing Russian roulette with a Glock.
Since everyone is going to get this, it won't end well.

Lightsaber
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:23 pm

Serious gripe. Why are the vaccine cards so big? Why are they not a printed credit card (hard plastic)? Where the vaccine information was printed out each time with room for say 4 jabs and information on the magnetic stripe if more detail is required?

We have these machines at work. The old cards were 22 cents in bulk. (New ones with high memory capacity, huge # bit encryption, etc. are rediculously expensive).

The machines are mass produced and cheap.
I'm traveling next week and to keep my card safe, it must be in a bag. I don't like carrying a bag.

/rant

Lightsaber
 
cledaybuck
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:56 pm

SL1200MK2 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Boom.
Here we go..

Delta is going to charge the Unvaccinated more for health insurance.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/25/business ... index.html



I really don't know where something like this ends. What about obese workers? You gonna charge them too? Diabetes cost companies a ton of money. Some I know do penalize for smoking and some like Alaska Airlines wont employ you if you smoke. But I have a friend who works in a medical building here in MS he is an HVAC guy they mandated the medical staff all be vaccinated 90% of the nurses quit. Even of my friends that most did not get this vaccine none of them are anti vax they are just anti THIS vax. I am vaccinated but to tell you the truth I was hoping for some normalness to my life and I don't have it. I don't care what the MSM preaches. This vaccine while it may have been effective against the original variant I don't believe it has anywhere near the effectiveness in the current Delta variant . Add to that another person I know in the health care field has told me they don't have to report anyone to the CDC who has COVID that has been vaccinated in other words breakthrough infection. So right there tells me the numbers are skewed to always show the unvaccinated as the majority of hospitalizations. Too much conflicting information keeps coming out. First was that vaccinated people are not carriers and have less viral load than the unvaccinated. Then another one comes out and says they carry the same viral load vaccinated or not. I know science is always evolving but this indicates to me that they do not know enough about this virus or this vaccine. Now I am on board with masks and social distancing. The schools down here started up several weeks ago and the mistake I think they made besides no masks for kids they took down all the plexiglass barriers and stopped temperature checks my friend has 4 kids in high school it only took 2 days of in person school for one of them to come down with COVID and spread it to two families they have now closed the schools here for at least 2 weeks . So the argument the right seems to be making is not valid either. The first variant kids didn't seem to be spreaders or even get sick from it . This is not the case with Delta. So mitigation strategies need to be in place. I am not going to keep chasing this vaccine looking for boosters every 90 days to cover new variants. I have lost what little confidence I did have in it. I am back to staying away from people and wearing my mask . Each person can make their own decisions.


“But I have a friend who works in a medical building here in MS he is an HVAC guy they mandated the medical staff all be vaccinated 90% of the nurses quit“

While I do realize this is in Missouri, do you have a source beyond your HVAC friend about the 10% of nurses that stayed on-board due to the vaccine mandate?

MS is Mississippi.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:59 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

I really don't know where something like this ends. What about obese workers? You gonna charge them too? Diabetes cost companies a ton of money. Some I know do penalize for smoking and some like Alaska Airlines wont employ you if you smoke. But I have a friend who works in a medical building here in MS he is an HVAC guy they mandated the medical staff all be vaccinated 90% of the nurses quit. Even of my friends that most did not get this vaccine none of them are anti vax they are just anti THIS vax. I am vaccinated but to tell you the truth I was hoping for some normalness to my life and I don't have it. I don't care what the MSM preaches. This vaccine while it may have been effective against the original variant I don't believe it has anywhere near the effectiveness in the current Delta variant . Add to that another person I know in the health care field has told me they don't have to report anyone to the CDC who has COVID that has been vaccinated in other words breakthrough infection. So right there tells me the numbers are skewed to always show the unvaccinated as the majority of hospitalizations. Too much conflicting information keeps coming out. First was that vaccinated people are not carriers and have less viral load than the unvaccinated. Then another one comes out and says they carry the same viral load vaccinated or not. I know science is always evolving but this indicates to me that they do not know enough about this virus or this vaccine. Now I am on board with masks and social distancing. The schools down here started up several weeks ago and the mistake I think they made besides no masks for kids they took down all the plexiglass barriers and stopped temperature checks my friend has 4 kids in high school it only took 2 days of in person school for one of them to come down with COVID and spread it to two families they have now closed the schools here for at least 2 weeks . So the argument the right seems to be making is not valid either. The first variant kids didn't seem to be spreaders or even get sick from it . This is not the case with Delta. So mitigation strategies need to be in place. I am not going to keep chasing this vaccine looking for boosters every 90 days to cover new variants. I have lost what little confidence I did have in it. I am back to staying away from people and wearing my mask . Each person can make their own decisions.


“But I have a friend who works in a medical building here in MS he is an HVAC guy they mandated the medical staff all be vaccinated 90% of the nurses quit“

While I do realize this is in Missouri, do you have a source beyond your HVAC friend about the 10% of nurses that stayed on-board due to the vaccine mandate?

MS is Mississippi.



I don't think it was 90% but MS has lost over 2000 nurses since January.

Lots of stress in a low vaccination state watching people die that could have been saved by a simple vaccine.

https://www.insider.com/2000-mississipp ... rge-2021-8
 
SL1200MK2
Posts: 220
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:20 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

I really don't know where something like this ends. What about obese workers? You gonna charge them too? Diabetes cost companies a ton of money. Some I know do penalize for smoking and some like Alaska Airlines wont employ you if you smoke. But I have a friend who works in a medical building here in MS he is an HVAC guy they mandated the medical staff all be vaccinated 90% of the nurses quit. Even of my friends that most did not get this vaccine none of them are anti vax they are just anti THIS vax. I am vaccinated but to tell you the truth I was hoping for some normalness to my life and I don't have it. I don't care what the MSM preaches. This vaccine while it may have been effective against the original variant I don't believe it has anywhere near the effectiveness in the current Delta variant . Add to that another person I know in the health care field has told me they don't have to report anyone to the CDC who has COVID that has been vaccinated in other words breakthrough infection. So right there tells me the numbers are skewed to always show the unvaccinated as the majority of hospitalizations. Too much conflicting information keeps coming out. First was that vaccinated people are not carriers and have less viral load than the unvaccinated. Then another one comes out and says they carry the same viral load vaccinated or not. I know science is always evolving but this indicates to me that they do not know enough about this virus or this vaccine. Now I am on board with masks and social distancing. The schools down here started up several weeks ago and the mistake I think they made besides no masks for kids they took down all the plexiglass barriers and stopped temperature checks my friend has 4 kids in high school it only took 2 days of in person school for one of them to come down with COVID and spread it to two families they have now closed the schools here for at least 2 weeks . So the argument the right seems to be making is not valid either. The first variant kids didn't seem to be spreaders or even get sick from it . This is not the case with Delta. So mitigation strategies need to be in place. I am not going to keep chasing this vaccine looking for boosters every 90 days to cover new variants. I have lost what little confidence I did have in it. I am back to staying away from people and wearing my mask . Each person can make their own decisions.


“But I have a friend who works in a medical building here in MS he is an HVAC guy they mandated the medical staff all be vaccinated 90% of the nurses quit“

While I do realize this is in Missouri, do you have a source beyond your HVAC friend about the 10% of nurses that stayed on-board due to the vaccine mandate?

MS is Mississippi.


Thank you for the correction!
 
cledaybuck
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:02 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Serious gripe. Why are the vaccine cards so big? Why are they not a printed credit card (hard plastic)? Where the vaccine information was printed out each time with room for say 4 jabs and information on the magnetic stripe if more detail is required?

We have these machines at work. The old cards were 22 cents in bulk. (New ones with high memory capacity, huge # bit encryption, etc. are rediculously expensive).

The machines are mass produced and cheap.
I'm traveling next week and to keep my card safe, it must be in a bag. I don't like carrying a bag.

/rant

Lightsaber

Here is an article that basically says the same thing.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ig/619707/
 
art
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:01 pm

I've been logging UK COVID-19 data since it started here.

worldometers each day publishes inter alia (a) total infections to date (b) deaths to date (c) recoveries to date; When I look at UK data I find that recoveries value is ~ 80% of infections value. Totals to date:

Infections - 6,666,399
Recoveries: 5,298,660

Allowing for reported deaths (value: 132,243) this leaves 19% of COVID-19 survivors as unrecovered. This looks like a big percentage to me. I hope that it is mostly due to there being no system to report all recoveries while there is a system to report all confirmed infections. Whatever, there must be a disturbing number of people suffering from 'long COVID'. Is this simmering away in a big way below the radar, something that will sap medical resources for a long time?
 
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Francoflier
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:41 pm

art wrote:
I've been logging UK COVID-19 data since it started here.

worldometers each day publishes inter alia (a) total infections to date (b) deaths to date (c) recoveries to date; When I look at UK data I find that recoveries value is ~ 80% of infections value. Totals to date:

Infections - 6,666,399
Recoveries: 5,298,660

Allowing for reported deaths (value: 132,243) this leaves 19% of COVID-19 survivors as unrecovered. This looks like a big percentage to me. I hope that it is mostly due to there being no system to report all recoveries while there is a system to report all confirmed infections. Whatever, there must be a disturbing number of people suffering from 'long COVID'. Is this simmering away in a big way below the radar, something that will sap medical resources for a long time?


I wouldn't trust those 'recovered' figures.
Remember that most who test positive but present mild to no symptoms (a majority of cases I would say) are told to go home and wait for it to pass. They get logged as a case since they tested, but there's no way to accurately account for their recoveries since they won't report it.

That discrepancy is in no way an indication of the amount of people currently sick or still suffering from it in my view.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:06 am

A survey of medical professionals, 203 od 203 recommend the vaccines:
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/203 ... 19989.html

This was done to debunk internet lies.

Francoflier wrote:
art wrote:
I've been logging UK COVID-19 data since it started here.

worldometers each day publishes inter alia (a) total infections to date (b) deaths to date (c) recoveries to date; When I look at UK data I find that recoveries value is ~ 80% of infections value. Totals to date:

Infections - 6,666,399
Recoveries: 5,298,660

Allowing for reported deaths (value: 132,243) this leaves 19% of COVID-19 survivors as unrecovered. This looks like a big percentage to me. I hope that it is mostly due to there being no system to report all recoveries while there is a system to report all confirmed infections. Whatever, there must be a disturbing number of people suffering from 'long COVID'. Is this simmering away in a big way below the radar, something that will sap medical resources for a long time?


I wouldn't trust those 'recovered' figures.
Remember that most who test positive but present mild to no symptoms (a majority of cases I would say) are told to go home and wait for it to pass. They get logged as a case since they tested, but there's no way to accurately account for their recoveries since they won't report it.

That discrepancy is in no way an indication of the amount of people currently sick or still suffering from it in my view.

I wonder how cases are purged. There isn't a process to verify, one is told how long to quarantine after symptoms and that is that.

Lightsaber
 
stratosphere
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:20 am

casinterest wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:

“But I have a friend who works in a medical building here in MS he is an HVAC guy they mandated the medical staff all be vaccinated 90% of the nurses quit“

While I do realize this is in Missouri, do you have a source beyond your HVAC friend about the 10% of nurses that stayed on-board due to the vaccine mandate?

MS is Mississippi.



I don't think it was 90% but MS has lost over 2000 nurses since January.

Lots of stress in a low vaccination state watching people die that could have been saved by a simple vaccine.

https://www.insider.com/2000-mississipp ... rge-2021-8


Except that the vaccine ISN'T saving lives. This current Delta variant has just as many vaccinated in the hospital as unvaccinated only it isn't advertised. Delta is circumventing this vaccine but they will never admit it. I know it is not as easy as it seems but in the UK more vaccinated are dying than unvaccinated I know this probably is missing context but it reinforces my point that this vaccine is not the panacea to end this .
https://scitechdaily.com/more-vaccinate ... heres-why/
 
art
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:01 am

stratosphere wrote:
Except that the vaccine ISN'T saving lives. This current Delta variant has just as many vaccinated in the hospital as unvaccinated only it isn't advertised. Delta is circumventing this vaccine but they will never admit it. I know it is not as easy as it seems but in the UK more vaccinated are dying than unvaccinated I know this probably is missing context but it reinforces my point that this vaccine is not the panacea to end this .
https://scitechdaily.com/more-vaccinate ... heres-why/


You are not making sense. You cite an article saying that vaccines are saving lives to support your claim that vaccines are not saving lives!

Here’s a simple thought experiment: imagine everyone is now fully vaccinated with COVID vaccines – which are excellent but can’t save all lives. Some people who get infected with COVID will still die. All of these people will be fully vaccinated – 100%. That doesn’t mean vaccines aren’t effective at reducing death.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:28 am

stratosphere wrote:
casinterest wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
MS is Mississippi.



I don't think it was 90% but MS has lost over 2000 nurses since January.

Lots of stress in a low vaccination state watching people die that could have been saved by a simple vaccine.

https://www.insider.com/2000-mississipp ... rge-2021-8


Except that the vaccine ISN'T saving lives. This current Delta variant has just as many vaccinated in the hospital as unvaccinated only it isn't advertised. Delta is circumventing this vaccine but they will never admit it. I know it is not as easy as it seems but in the UK more vaccinated are dying than unvaccinated I know this probably is missing context but it reinforces my point that this vaccine is not the panacea to end this .
https://scitechdaily.com/more-vaccinate ... heres-why/



So you just ignored my earlier response to you that proved everything you just said wrong? you aren't even reading your article.

From the article:
owever, the 20-fold decrease in risk afforded by the vaccine isn’t enough to offset the 32-fold increase in underlying risk of death of an 70-year-old over a 35-year-old. Given the same risk of infection, we would still expect to see more double-vaccinated 70-year-olds die from COVID than unvaccinated 35-year-olds. There are caveats to that simple calculation. The risk of infection is not the same for all age groups. Currently, infections are highest in the youngest and lower in older age groups.

The fact that more vaccinated people are dying than unvaccinated people does nothing to undermine vaccine safety or effectiveness. In fact, it’s exactly what we’d expect from the excellent vaccines, which have already saved tens of thousands of lives.
 
GDB
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:04 am

casinterest wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
casinterest wrote:


I don't think it was 90% but MS has lost over 2000 nurses since January.

Lots of stress in a low vaccination state watching people die that could have been saved by a simple vaccine.

https://www.insider.com/2000-mississipp ... rge-2021-8


Except that the vaccine ISN'T saving lives. This current Delta variant has just as many vaccinated in the hospital as unvaccinated only it isn't advertised. Delta is circumventing this vaccine but they will never admit it. I know it is not as easy as it seems but in the UK more vaccinated are dying than unvaccinated I know this probably is missing context but it reinforces my point that this vaccine is not the panacea to end this .
https://scitechdaily.com/more-vaccinate ... heres-why/



So you just ignored my earlier response to you that proved everything you just said wrong? you aren't even reading your article.

From the article:
owever, the 20-fold decrease in risk afforded by the vaccine isn’t enough to offset the 32-fold increase in underlying risk of death of an 70-year-old over a 35-year-old. Given the same risk of infection, we would still expect to see more double-vaccinated 70-year-olds die from COVID than unvaccinated 35-year-olds. There are caveats to that simple calculation. The risk of infection is not the same for all age groups. Currently, infections are highest in the youngest and lower in older age groups.

The fact that more vaccinated people are dying than unvaccinated people does nothing to undermine vaccine safety or effectiveness. In fact, it’s exactly what we’d expect from the excellent vaccines, which have already saved tens of thousands of lives.


Par for the course with this bunch.
If I really wanted to be mean just in this last week I have read of three dead 'Murican 'Freedumb' anti mask, anti vax, (anti basic knowledge and common sense too) activists, two of whom used radio to broadcast their dangerous crap, who have died.
Just this morning another, a 30 year old father of three who organized anti mask, anti vax rallies of the stupid (GOP/MAGA all of course), now close to death after not only getting this 'non existent' virus but using fake 'cures' pushed by cranks, some GOP politicians (same thing of course), grifters in general.

Last time I posted with links, post was deleted, so see what happens with none, just google 'anti vaxxer Covid deaths', or similar, will as I suspect this be deleted too?
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:22 pm

GDB wrote:
casinterest wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

Except that the vaccine ISN'T saving lives. This current Delta variant has just as many vaccinated in the hospital as unvaccinated only it isn't advertised. Delta is circumventing this vaccine but they will never admit it. I know it is not as easy as it seems but in the UK more vaccinated are dying than unvaccinated I know this probably is missing context but it reinforces my point that this vaccine is not the panacea to end this .
https://scitechdaily.com/more-vaccinate ... heres-why/



So you just ignored my earlier response to you that proved everything you just said wrong? you aren't even reading your article.

From the article:
owever, the 20-fold decrease in risk afforded by the vaccine isn’t enough to offset the 32-fold increase in underlying risk of death of an 70-year-old over a 35-year-old. Given the same risk of infection, we would still expect to see more double-vaccinated 70-year-olds die from COVID than unvaccinated 35-year-olds. There are caveats to that simple calculation. The risk of infection is not the same for all age groups. Currently, infections are highest in the youngest and lower in older age groups.

The fact that more vaccinated people are dying than unvaccinated people does nothing to undermine vaccine safety or effectiveness. In fact, it’s exactly what we’d expect from the excellent vaccines, which have already saved tens of thousands of lives.


Par for the course with this bunch.
If I really wanted to be mean just in this last week I have read of three dead 'Murican 'Freedumb' anti mask, anti vax, (anti basic knowledge and common sense too) activists, two of whom used radio to broadcast their dangerous crap, who have died.
Just this morning another, a 30 year old father of three who organized anti mask, anti vax rallies of the stupid (GOP/MAGA all of course), now close to death after not only getting this 'non existent' virus but using fake 'cures' pushed by cranks, some GOP politicians (same thing of course), grifters in general.

Last time I posted with links, post was deleted, so see what happens with none, just google 'anti vaxxer Covid deaths', or similar, will as I suspect this be deleted too?



It is difficult, and these reflective deaths never quite make it into certain news feeds, yet we always hear about masks suffocating kids, and vaccines causing death.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:18 am

lightsaber wrote:
I think jab #4 will be a variant booster.


But if it's for variants, will there have to be jab #5 a few months later to reinforce jab #4?
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:11 am

https://preview.redd.it/mwm3n5f8e1k71.j ... ccf047a7ff
From Chinese site
Somewhere in China, community representatives are telling the people that, because "vaccine content have now been changef", people with heart disease, high blood pressure, high blood sugar level, etc. can now take the vaccines
 
tommy1808
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:44 am

stratosphere wrote:
This current Delta variant has just as many vaccinated in the hospital as unvaccinated only it isn't advertised.


and if 100% where vaccinated, 100% of hospitalized would be vaccinated. Keep in mind that in the UK almost 90% above 15 have gotten one dose, almost 80% have gotten both. Above the age of 50 less than 5% are completely unvaccinated. So " just as many vaccinated in the hospital as unvaccinated" proves a very effective vaccine.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

best regards
Thomas
 
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c933103
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:48 am

https://www.cna.com.tw/news/firstnews/202108270078.aspx
Taiwan will accept the delivery of Pfizer vaccines with Chinese company branding in order to speed up vaccine delivery speed
 
avier
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:09 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
This current Delta variant has just as many vaccinated in the hospital as unvaccinated only it isn't advertised.


and if 100% where vaccinated, 100% of hospitalized would be vaccinated. Keep in mind that in the UK almost 90% above 15 have gotten one dose, almost 80% have gotten both. Above the age of 50 less than 5% are completely unvaccinated. So " just as many vaccinated in the hospital as unvaccinated" proves a very effective vaccine.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

And if 100% are vaccinated there would be no control groups left to understand the long-term effects and efficacy of the vaccine. Cases of covid would continue, and there will be nothing to compare against how someone without the vaccine would perform vs one having had the jab. So in a way, those refusing to take the jab will be like the control group.
Pfizers and other vaccine manufacturer's study are still ongoing and haven't concluded yet.
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728

Ps- I'm in no way suggesting people should not take the Vax. Have myself and whole family too.
 
leader1
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:44 am

Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:34 pm

My fiancée runs the pharmacy department of a major hospital in Westchester County, just north of NYC. I asked her about the breakdown of COVID admissions of vaccinated and unvaccinated patients, and she said that between 85%-90% of the hospitalizations in her hospital were unvaccinated. And of the vaccinated admissions, most of them really didn't need to be there as their symptoms weren't that bad as opposed to the vast majority of the unvaccinated patients who were in pretty bad shape by the time they arrived.

She gave an example of the difference between a vaccinated and unvaccinated patient. One day last week, there were two COVID admissions - an vaccinated elderly woman in her 80s with comorbidities and a 41 year-old unvaccinated woman with zero comorbidities and in pretty good shape. The elderly vaccinated woman had mild symptoms and, according to the nurse overseeing her, didn't really need to be there, but the hospital admitted her out of an abundance of caution. She's since been discharged. The younger woman was struggling and in awful shape, ventilated, etc. Same nurse was looking after the younger patient and didn't think she'd make it. I'll have to ask for an update on the younger woman.

That brings me to another point. A lot of the vaccinated counted in hospitalization statistics seem to be those who freak out over the slightest symptoms and get admitted anyways because with COVID, things can deteriorate really fast and folks don't want to take a chance. At least that's what my fiancée says. There is a real difference in the severity of illness between vaccinated and unvaccinated patients.

This is the situation at her hospital. It's pretty much the same thing across all the hospitals in her health system. Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but it seems unlikely.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14171
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:37 pm

leader1 wrote:
My fiancée runs the pharmacy department of a major hospital in Westchester County, just north of NYC. I asked her about the breakdown of COVID admissions of vaccinated and unvaccinated patients, and she said that between 85%-90% of the hospitalizations in her hospital were unvaccinated. And of the vaccinated admissions, most of them really didn't need to be there as their symptoms weren't that bad as opposed to the vast majority of the unvaccinated patients who were in pretty bad shape by the time they arrived.

She gave an example of the difference between a vaccinated and unvaccinated patient. One day last week, there were two COVID admissions - an vaccinated elderly woman in her 80s with comorbidities and a 41 year-old unvaccinated woman with zero comorbidities and in pretty good shape. The elderly vaccinated woman had mild symptoms and, according to the nurse overseeing her, didn't really need to be there, but the hospital admitted her out of an abundance of caution. She's since been discharged. The younger woman was struggling and in awful shape, ventilated, etc. Same nurse was looking after the younger patient and didn't think she'd make it. I'll have to ask for an update on the younger woman.

That brings me to another point. A lot of the vaccinated counted in hospitalization statistics seem to be those who freak out over the slightest symptoms and get admitted anyways because with COVID, things can deteriorate really fast and folks don't want to take a chance. At least that's what my fiancée says. There is a real difference in the severity of illness between vaccinated and unvaccinated patients.

This is the situation at her hospital. It's pretty much the same thing across all the hospitals in her health system. Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but it seems unlikely.



I wouldn't say it is the freakouts all the time . Some of the people with covid were admitted for other issues such as appendicitis or cancer. I have seen this as well. But because covid is detected, it is listed as well.
 
luckyone
Posts: 4085
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:49 pm

leader1 wrote:
My fiancée runs the pharmacy department of a major hospital in Westchester County, just north of NYC. I asked her about the breakdown of COVID admissions of vaccinated and unvaccinated patients, and she said that between 85%-90% of the hospitalizations in her hospital were unvaccinated. And of the vaccinated admissions, most of them really didn't need to be there as their symptoms weren't that bad as opposed to the vast majority of the unvaccinated patients who were in pretty bad shape by the time they arrived.

She gave an example of the difference between a vaccinated and unvaccinated patient. One day last week, there were two COVID admissions - an vaccinated elderly woman in her 80s with comorbidities and a 41 year-old unvaccinated woman with zero comorbidities and in pretty good shape. The elderly vaccinated woman had mild symptoms and, according to the nurse overseeing her, didn't really need to be there, but the hospital admitted her out of an abundance of caution. She's since been discharged. The younger woman was struggling and in awful shape, ventilated, etc. Same nurse was looking after the younger patient and didn't think she'd make it. I'll have to ask for an update on the younger woman.

That brings me to another point. A lot of the vaccinated counted in hospitalization statistics seem to be those who freak out over the slightest symptoms and get admitted anyways because with COVID, things can deteriorate really fast and folks don't want to take a chance. At least that's what my fiancée says. There is a real difference in the severity of illness between vaccinated and unvaccinated patients.

This is the situation at her hospital. It's pretty much the same thing across all the hospitals in her health system. Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but it seems unlikely.

Anecdotally, I have similar stories. In the past two weeks I have two COVID patients that came across my service.

An 80 year-old male who had been vaccinated. He had a mild cough, and was given steroids -- which made him delirious which is why I saw him, but that was addressed and he went home after a few days.

A 27 year-old male who was not vaccinated, no noted comorbidities. He's been in the hospital six weeks now. It takes dexmedetomidine, a hydromorphone or fentanyl drip, ketamine, Propofol, haloperidol, and succinylcholine IN COMBINATION to keep this man calm enough so that in his delirious state he doesn't rip out the endotracheal tube that is currently keeping him alive.
 
Elgorou
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:54 pm

Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:12 pm

Chile approve use Sinovac in childs beteewn 6 - 17 y/o, and would start before septembers end. Will complement with Pfizer jab, that is use in child beteewn 12-17 y/o since August. ( Source in Spanish)

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... egios.html
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14853
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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:26 am

About eliminating the virus, I know it is considered impossible now, but why exactly ? Is there a study in a 90% vaccinated population or something like that showing the virus stays in one person then another etc. ?

What about herd immunity, that first idea that everyone will get the virus then be done ? In largely (even if only 70%) vaccinated countries, much less social distancing and restrictions are happening, so the virus is roaming, OK, but shouldn't everyone get it then at some point ?
 
Derico
Posts: 4505
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:27 am

Aesma wrote:
About eliminating the virus, I know it is considered impossible now, but why exactly ? Is there a study in a 90% vaccinated population or something like that showing the virus stays in one person then another etc. ?

What about herd immunity, that first idea that everyone will get the virus then be done ? In largely (even if only 70%) vaccinated countries, much less social distancing and restrictions are happening, so the virus is roaming, OK, but shouldn't everyone get it then at some point ?


It takes one mutation to make a virus °better fit°. With billions of upon billions of interactions daily around the world now, the chances of that °ONE° are certain several orders of magnitude over. A respiratory disease with a silent incubation period is impossible to eradicate as it takes just ONE better fit pathogen to start the chain reaction all over again.

The only way to root out a virus would be with some mechanism to render it impossible for it to enter human cells. Either some sci-fi medication, or with a global lockdown of 2 months, broken by absolutely no human being on the planet.

I am not sure how long can a virus that needs human hosts survive somewhere in the environment (surfaces, water, frozen food or frozen water in refrigeration, air filters, trapped in sealed air bubbles).

This is why having 100% of the rich countries vaccinated will fail miserably. It just takes one infiltration of a virus fit to evade some aspects of vaccine immunity to restart the process.
 
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c933103
Posts: 5814
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: COVID-19 Vaccine News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:15 am

Perhaps the vaccines function more like flu vaccines than we would like to...

https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/2 ... Qatar.aspx

A preprint from large scale study in Qatar say, mRNA vaccine efficiency against infection decrease significantly in 15-20 weeks after receiving the second dose, but protection from hospitalization and death decline slower, maintaining effectiveness at around for six month but declining to 70% later on.
They think this is unlikely due to age of those who got vaccinated earlier, as similar pattern have been seen in other age groups.
Also note that while the vaccine only offer 63.7% protection against asymptomatic infection even at its peak.of efficiency according to the study, compares to 80% for symptomatic.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectious ... cine/94344

Fauci said he won't be surprised if full vaccination need three doses

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