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ltbewr
Posts: 15716
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:55 pm

Cruel leadership doesn't work in the long run. Many of us have worked under bosses who were cruel to us. In some cases some of those 'Toxic bosses' in the long run face discrimination and 'hostile workplace' lawsuits, lose good employees, have high costly high turnover of staff, as well as have less net productive workplaces. Most want constant, fair, firm, honest leadership..Real leaders may have to practice 'tough love' to honestly deal with issues, but they don't target certain persons by gender or gender preference,race, skin color, ethnicity, age, religion, health, disability or if have blue hair.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8603
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:37 pm

The Chicago Boys fixed Chile. Not Pinochet.

It’s purely a happy coincidence that Pinochet claimed complete economic ignorance and instead allowed the Chicago Boys to fix Chile’s economy. AND the fact that the Chicago Boys were politically savvy enough to navigate a dictator’s many feelings and fears is yet another happy coincidence.

Singapore, South Korea, and China have parallels to this—ie, some dictator bringing about economic opening, while keeping the country politically closed. I dunno if similarities to Chile’s “happy coincidence” exist there, too.

In general, however, while examples of dictators bringing about something good exist, it’s definitely a rare exception to the rule. And arguably credit lies with someone else.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9071
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:16 pm

Sokes wrote:
So Monday the IT cell claims he is an academic, Tuesday they claim chaiwala?


Like several other successful people in the world at present, his character is built upon stacked falsehoods. He is a social media success story.

The guy in this video allegedly worked for IT cell and makes some cringe worthy claims. Multiple personas is one of those.
There are English subtitles and hope know a little Hindi to get the gist of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL2ZYXLW5bU

This video is from March 2018, he made a claim that BJP literally owns Facebook. Fast-forward to 2020, worlds reputed news outlets confirm his claim from 2018.

Facebook’s Hate-Speech Rules Collide With Indian Politics
https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebook-h ... 1597423346

Facebook’s Ties to India’s Ruling Party Complicate Its Fight Against Hate Speech
https://time.com/5883993/india-facebook ... peech-bjp/

Is Facebook favoring the ruling BJP in India?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-53803256

Ankhi Das: Facebook India's policy head quits amid hate speech row
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-54715995
All posts are just opinions.
 
Sokes
Topic Author
Posts: 2775
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:14 pm

PPVRA wrote:
The Chicago Boys fixed Chile. Not Pinochet.
...

Excellent post.
That's probably the formulation I was looking for:
To open the economy before the political system.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:28 pm

Sokes wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
The Chicago Boys fixed Chile. Not Pinochet.
...

Excellent post.
That's probably the formulation I was looking for:
To open the economy before the political system.


WP:EN:Chicago Boys wrote:
The Chicago Boys were a group of Chilean economists prominent around the 1970s and 1980s, the majority of whom were educated at the Department of Economics of the University of Chicago under Milton Friedman and Arnold Harberger, or at its affiliate in the economics department at the Pontifical Catholic University of ...


In its destructiveness that appears to be a twin to the "School of the Americas" ( for subverting the loyalty of foreign military personnel.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
Sokes
Topic Author
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:22 pm

If socialism finances revolutions all over the world and capitalism stays quiet, what will happen?
Eastern Europe also wasn't too pretty.
If your opponent plays dirty, can you play nice?
Anyway I am not sure what to think.
New topic:
viewtopic.php?t=1454345
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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fallap
Posts: 1054
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:25 pm

Sokes wrote:
fallap wrote:
The basic human desire requires freedom above everything else, and no amount of economic advances can act as a substitution

True for some people. I'm not even sure if it is true for most people.
Even in wealthy societies some women marry men only for their money. In poor societies economic situation becomes the dominant factor in choosing a man.

My wife's nices sometimes ask me if my wife can come to visit them. That's because their father more often than not doesn't allow his wife to visit e.g. her mother (when the mother was alive).
I always answer: "That you have to ask herself. "

From my experience as a drafted soldier in Germany I don't feel people desire freedom above all else. Most not only submit, but even embrace a system of dominance and submission.


If people don't know what is best for them, they will damn well be forced to enjoy liberal democracy in all its merit
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
Sokes
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:40 am

fallap wrote:
If people don't know what is best for them, they will damn well be forced to enjoy liberal democracy in all its merit

I tend to agree. The problem: Taliban also agree that people have to be forced to their luck. It was also the attitude of the Russian revolution.
Though I'm not sure if I condemn the later. They didn't know what we know today. Maybe it had to be tried.

And Lenin did change course when he saw the policies didn't work. Very unfortunate he died early.

But then if all other Weltanschauungen are willing to use force, isn't liberalism forced to do the same?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
kaitak
Posts: 10070
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:49 pm

[quote="chimborazo"

I don’t think “Cruel” is necessary. But “hard” seems to be in some of the places I’ve visited.
.[/quote]

I think "hard" is probably a better term to use. I think about Britain in this light; indeed, unconnected with this thread, I reflected on Thatcher in the UK. She wasn't cruel in the way dictators are, though many in the UK would probably have considered her a cruel, heartless person, BUT ... did the Britain of the late 1970s and 1980s requre someone like Thatcher - basically a human defibrillator. Would any other approach have worked? I don't think so. By no means would I ever be considered a Thatcherite or a fan of Thatcher, but the Britain of the late 1970s required a catalyst. The govenrment of Jim Callaghan (and any other Labour - and for that matter, most of the Tories) would not have had the backbone to face down the unions and do what had to be done. Someone had to do it and she did. What would Britain have been like if she hadn't?

One can't help thinking that if Brexit is as much of a success as most experts expect it to be, Britain may well need someone with her "defibrillation" skills to jolt it back into its senses within the next decade, but that's an argument for another day.

Sometimes leaders have to make hard choices; that's what makes them leaders. Look at Ronald Reagan and the ATC strike in 1981. What if he had taken another course of action and sat down with them; sure, air traffic would not have suffered, but there'd be more and more strikes. A marker needed to be pummelled into the ground and as a result of this decision, the message was sent out quite clearly.
 
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HAWK21M
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:46 pm

To be a Hero you need to have something to defeat.......
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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BawliBooch
Posts: 1561
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:49 am

HAWK21M wrote:
To be a Hero you need to have something to defeat.......


Most cruel rulers in history have CREATED enemies to defeat! A fictional enemy to target with dog whistles, lynch mobs and gas chambers. Hitler did this with Jews. Modi is doing it with Muslims/Christians.

Trump tried to go down that path with Modi style dog whistles aimed at Mexicans but the US has institutions in place that prevented it from getting out of hand here.
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
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DL717
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:05 am

Kno wrote:
No


Only if you believe people are inherently good, which they aren’t. They are necessary to remind us of what not to be and inevitable because people are inherently bad.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:43 am

BawliBooch wrote:

Trump tried to go down that path with Modi style dog whistles aimed at Mexicans but the US has institutions in place that prevented it from getting out of hand here.


No he simply asked that immigration from that country was done legally. The only dog whistle was that he was bigoted against Hispanics. Our immigration system is broken and the left doesn't want to do anything because they want the votes.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
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seb146
Posts: 23736
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:17 am

NIKV69 wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:

Trump tried to go down that path with Modi style dog whistles aimed at Mexicans but the US has institutions in place that prevented it from getting out of hand here.


No he simply asked that immigration from that country was done legally. The only dog whistle was that he was bigoted against Hispanics. Our immigration system is broken and the left doesn't want to do anything because they want the votes.


Illegals can not vote. Democrats have tried to fix the broken system for decades but righties just whine and complain that "liberals" are not doing anything. Democrats even tried doing EXACTLY what Reagan did and it is now the worst idea ever.

Cruel rulers are necessary to show us what not to do. The one we have now (until January 21) is a perfect example. He has done nothing but play golf and bully and name call. No real leadership but he is adored by people who hang on his every word. They go after who he tells them to. This is not what we should be doing. He is showing us what America and democracies should not do.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9071
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:50 pm

Trump is a saint compared to Modi, but outside world cannot figure out because Modi has a huge troll army and MSM sings to his tunes.

Media played a major role in Trump takedown, I wish CNN haven't turned into a liberal version of Fox News, but that technique worked.

Read Indian aviation thread, there is a talk about kicking out a foreign investor in favor of another, everyone seems to think it is perfectly legit. Rule of Law is not applicable. Explains the mindset.

During COVID, Million+ migrant workers walked 500-1000 km on highways and along railroad tracks because he shut down railways and refuse to operate special service.
There are 1000s of farmers camped outside Delhi in near zero temperature protesting his latest act of corruption.
Few years back when he cancelled all high denomination currency, people stood outside for 4+ hours to exchange or withdraw. This includes physically challenged and senior citizens.

His troll army has complete control on Facebook and Whatsapp. You will be surprised FB had a policy not to delete posts by his followers worrying safety of FB India employees and commercial interests.
https://www.businessinsider.com/faceboo ... ns-2020-12


History will remember him as Ivan of India.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Sokes
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:41 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
...
History will remember him as Ivan of India.

Now I know why Trump christened his daughter Ivanka. :idea:
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Topic Author
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Re: Are cruel rulers necessary?

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:08 am

It takes time for agrarian, collectivist societies to change to industrial, individualistic societies.
To live as a liberal among people with dominance and submission mentality is difficult. One desires friendly relationships with workers and fair relationships with family, friends and neighbors which just isn't possible with most of them.

I believe Nietzsche's Übermensch philosophy is a brainchild of these circumstances. At least I am somewhat arrogant in India, though I myself dislike it and even though I am not arrogant in Germany. I feel many foreigners "suffer" the same, so do many rich Indians.
I doubt Nietzsche can be understood outside of these specific circumstances.

Question to our Indian friends:
Is Modi the Übermensch Nietzsche speaks about?
https://youtu.be/bxiKqA-u8y4
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?

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