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Aesma
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:38 pm

I really wonder if the military would conduct such attacks if ordered by Trump ? He has that power in theory, but would the military really want to start a war, unprovoked, on the orders of a defeated president ? AKA a president who has lost his legitimacy ?

I'm really glad the transition of power in my country takes 10 days at most from election day...

AirWorthy99 wrote:
This is so much fake news, paving the way for Biden to come out and bail out Iran and getting back to the nefarious Iran nuclear deal he and Obama signed.

If the US gets back into the Iran nuclear deal, it will setback the peace obtained during these years in the middle east. Will go against our allies, Israel and the KSA.

The geniuses that are coming back to the WH will certainly make things worse as they have for generations. Unfortunate.


Elections have consequences.

Also, what is the benefit of having Israel and KSA as allies ? What to they do for you, aside from creating chaos around them ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:21 pm

alfa164 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
The 3 years leading to the 2018 departure from the deal, you are going to tell me that Iran was playing nice in the region? The deal gave billions to a terrorist regime that funded horrific terrorism in Yemen and Syria, funded the takeover of Lebanon by Hezbollah, and funding terrorism against Israel by Hamas and at the same time developing long range ballistic missiles.


Even if true - and your name-calling of Iran does not add to your credibility - it has nothing to do with the J.P.O.A. The agreement was specifically limited to Iran's production of weapons-grade nuclear material, and it has been confirmed time and time again that they were abiding by that agreement.


AirWorthy99 wrote:
That was the deal, the Obama/Biden foreign policy was one of the most destructive and failed policies in generations. Even worse than GWB Iraq.


Let's make it clear: that is your opinion, not necessarily supported by the facts. In fact, it was GWB's foray into Iraq that eliminated the :check" against Iran that Saddam Hussein had provided in the region for decades; it was his untimely departure, and the chaos that the Bush-Cheney-neo-con left behind in Iraq, that allowed Iran to become the dominant power in that part of the world.


AirWorthy99 wrote:
Lets judge a policy on its results not on its intention as Milton Friedman said. How many deaths occurred on the period 2015-2018 compared to 2018-2020. Leave that as a homework to find out what worked best in the end.


So... how many of those deaths were caused by Iran? Do you have a number? Or can you agree that they were a result of our own misguided demolition of Iraqui stability, and the sectarian and tribal wars that followed?

You can't only attribute numbers to the administration in office at the time; you have to be able to think linearly, and understand what brought on that disaster. "Dogma" is not the same as "critical thinking". In fact, it is just the opposite.


Aaron747 wrote:
‘Carnage and terror like no other’...I see. Partisan blinders are a helluva thing.
Perhaps you should read a couple books on the region covering the 1920s through 1980s before offering more wisdom on the subject.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: Facts are stubborn things. It is too bad some people avoid them like the plague.


We can disagree on everything in this forum. But I do agree with you that getting into Iraq and removing Saddam has had a worse outcome than it was ever expected. Interestingly enough Joe Biden our next president was in favor of removing Saddam 5 years before we even invaded Iraq.
https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-push ... ar-1480860

We can blame GWB all we like but this as an utter blunder by all of the DC establishment and political heads.

You all may hate Trump all you like, but not acknowledging the mere fact that the Middle east is more stable since he became president, is severe blindness to say the least.

Having a powerful allegiance against Iran such as the one Israel and KSA have done, has dramatically improved the situation in the ground. That was a result of leaving the Iran deal.

The US should focus on rebuilding our economy, our military and set our sights on the REAL threat, which is China.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:38 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Having a powerful allegiance against Iran such as the one Israel and KSA have done, has dramatically improved the situation in the ground. That was a result of leaving the Iran deal.

The US should focus on rebuilding our economy, our military and set our sights on the REAL threat, which is China.


Fascinating opinions, at once contradictory and ignoring the fact that focusing so much on JCPOA got our eye off the China ball for the first two years of the 45 presidency. As I said, it's probably a good idea to read up on Mideast history back to about 1920 if you're truly interested in discussing the region.

1. As previously mentioned, the P5+1 arrangement was more powerful than the allegiance you cite, because signatories included both of Iran's primary benefactors - Russia and China. They wanted to help the west avoid a nuclear arms race in the Gulf because that is good for nobody. By junking the agreement, the end result so far is: Iran got their program going again, and that got the Saudis going.

https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/us-saudi- ... arms-race/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53225999

2. Bedfellows are getting stranger in the Middle East - with China now a massive investor in infrastructure and energy projects in the region. Among those is nuclear cooperation with Saudi - definitely not something Trump/Pompeo bargained for, and a major risk element going forward. You say there's peace now...but wait 5-10 years. China is now playing a provocateur role instead of being an active nonproliferation partner.

https://www.inss.org.il/publication/saudi-nuclear-plan/

https://theprint.in/opinion/china-saudi ... ia/516781/

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2020/ ... clear-trap

3. All the focus on Iran, the Yemen proxy war, moving embassy to Jerusalem and trade war with China has taken focus off China's aggressive efforts to secure partnerships, resource access, and major investment coups in Africa, Latin America, and South Asia. You simply cannot say 'let's focus on the REAL threat of China' when the Trump approach to weakening alliances and narrow-visioned trade rebalancing has actually enhanced China's reach in much of the world. Geopolitical power hates a vacuum.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diploma ... heme-boost

https://www.lampadia.com/assets/uploads ... merica.pdf

https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/China-e ... s-catch-up
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
slider
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:48 pm

Trump is the first POTUS in more than a generation to not create or escalate a conflict.

The neocons are hungry and demand to be fed. The Saudis are wanting to be placated again. This isn't tough stuff to see through if you've been paying attention.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:29 pm

slider wrote:
Trump is the first POTUS in more than a generation to not create or escalate a conflict.

The neocons are hungry and demand to be fed. The Saudis are wanting to be placated again. This isn't tough stuff to see through if you've been paying attention.


But he appeased North Korea and failed to stop them developing their rockets and nukes and he sucks up to Saudi Arabia while they bomb schools and hospitals in Yemen.

He walked away from the Iran deal and look where that’s going now.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:37 pm

slider wrote:
Trump is the first POTUS in more than a generation to not create or escalate a conflict.

You are obviously talking only of "hot war" and not things like trade wars. However with regard to "hot", he has created a lot of friction which will have to be dealt with or it could lead to more.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
NIKV69
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:39 pm

Aesma wrote:

Also, what is the benefit of having Israel and KSA as allies ? What to they do for you, aside from creating chaos around them ?


Wow this post left me speechless. Israel just wants to exist buddy. They aren't causing the the chaos the terrorists are. Part of being allies is to have each others backs. It's part of being friends. If one of your friends has chaos around him that isn't his fault you just abandon him?
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:47 pm

^ Yet the answer given was only for Israel. Still waiting to find out what KSA does for us now that we don’t need their oil - their trainees conspire to kill our soldiers at bases and their college students commit hit and run felonies and get airlifted out of the US before trial. Noice. Funny, I don’t see stories about Germans, Koreans, or Taiwanese doing that while in the US.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:10 pm

Tugger wrote:
slider wrote:
Trump is the first POTUS in more than a generation to not create or escalate a conflict.

You are obviously talking only of "hot war" and not things like trade wars. However with regard to "hot", he has created a lot of friction which will have to be dealt with or it could lead to more.

Tugg


He cruise missiled Syria quite nicely, is one of the few, if not the only, head of state to commit an act of war against two countries with one shot and he essentially didn't reduce troops abroad. The apparent reduction is an accounting trick and simply because it excludes troops for "force protection reasons".

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... anded-them

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:45 pm

WIederling wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
In truth, many of us thought withdrawing resources from Afghanistan (a justifiable place to intervene, in light of 911) ...

To get at a bunch of Saudi terrorists that convened in Hamburg, Germany to plan their attack? Bin Laden, another Saudi, could never be connected to that attack either in any proven way.


Perhaps you missed the part where Bin Laden admitted he was behind the attack. Or perhaps it wasn't reported in Russia.


WIederling wrote:
Afghanistan was probably attacked for the Talib not being tracktable to US wishes though they had been brought up and to power by US money ( via CIA, ISS .. indoctrinating madrassas scooping up war orphans from the region. Talib ~= pupil.


And the disinformation campaign continues...


:roll:
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
GDB
Posts: 14254
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:50 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Having a powerful allegiance against Iran such as the one Israel and KSA have done, has dramatically improved the situation in the ground. That was a result of leaving the Iran deal.

The US should focus on rebuilding our economy, our military and set our sights on the REAL threat, which is China.


Fascinating opinions, at once contradictory and ignoring the fact that focusing so much on JCPOA got our eye off the China ball for the first two years of the 45 presidency. As I said, it's probably a good idea to read up on Mideast history back to about 1920 if you're truly interested in discussing the region.

1. As previously mentioned, the P5+1 arrangement was more powerful than the allegiance you cite, because signatories included both of Iran's primary benefactors - Russia and China. They wanted to help the west avoid a nuclear arms race in the Gulf because that is good for nobody. By junking the agreement, the end result so far is: Iran got their program going again, and that got the Saudis going.

https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/us-saudi- ... arms-race/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53225999

2. Bedfellows are getting stranger in the Middle East - with China now a massive investor in infrastructure and energy projects in the region. Among those is nuclear cooperation with Saudi - definitely not something Trump/Pompeo bargained for, and a major risk element going forward. You say there's peace now...but wait 5-10 years. China is now playing a provocateur role instead of being an active nonproliferation partner.

https://www.inss.org.il/publication/saudi-nuclear-plan/

https://theprint.in/opinion/china-saudi ... ia/516781/

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2020/ ... clear-trap

3. All the focus on Iran, the Yemen proxy war, moving embassy to Jerusalem and trade war with China has taken focus off China's aggressive efforts to secure partnerships, resource access, and major investment coups in Africa, Latin America, and South Asia. You simply cannot say 'let's focus on the REAL threat of China' when the Trump approach to weakening alliances and narrow-visioned trade rebalancing has actually enhanced China's reach in much of the world. Geopolitical power hates a vacuum.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diploma ... heme-boost

https://www.lampadia.com/assets/uploads ... merica.pdf

https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/China-e ... s-catch-up


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Sau ... sile_Force

The Saudi's have had ballistic missiles since the late 80's, from China.
Usually in that part of the world, it's develop, or try to, the ability to make the bombs, then the delivery system, mostly in the form of junkyard SCUDs lashed together, locally developed or from North Korea. (Whose leader played Trump like a fiddle. Must have been briefed to just stroke the fool's ego, he doesn't know anything, doesn't want to know, maybe offer him a deal for a golf course or hotel?)
 
wirkey
Posts: 18
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:03 pm

slider wrote:
Trump is the first POTUS in more than a generation to not create or escalate a conflict.




He sure as hell tried to escalate. How would you call killing a high ranking Iranian official in Iraq otherwise?
 
vrbarreto
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:22 am

Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:52 pm

wirkey wrote:
slider wrote:
Trump is the first POTUS in more than a generation to not create or escalate a conflict.




He sure as hell tried to escalate. How would you call killing a high ranking Iranian official in Iraq otherwise?


A jolly jape?
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:53 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Perhaps you missed the part where Bin Laden admitted he was behind the attack.


Even the US FBI never connected him tightly to 911 ( various other attacks orchestrated by OBL where on their "OBL wanted for" list though.)

Put your facts in the box where all the Trump allegations of voter fraud belong : "Fake News".
Murphy is an optimist
 
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scbriml
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:01 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Wow this post left me speechless. Israel just wants to exist buddy while illegally stealing other people's land.


Fixed that for you!

NIKV69 wrote:
They aren't causing the the chaos the terrorists are.


See above for how Israel is part of the problem.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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seb146
Posts: 23731
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:04 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Also, what is the benefit of having Israel and KSA as allies ? What to they do for you, aside from creating chaos around them ?


Wow this post left me speechless. Israel just wants to exist buddy. They aren't causing the the chaos the terrorists are. Part of being allies is to have each others backs. It's part of being friends. If one of your friends has chaos around him that isn't his fault you just abandon him?


All but two of the 9/11 hijackers were from KSA. Also, KSA still supports extremist terrorist groups. The terrorists causing the chaos, if you will. Perhaps one goal is finding a solution to the Palestinians not having a homeland?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
NIKV69
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:22 pm

scbriml wrote:
Fixed that for you!


Not really.

seb146 wrote:

All but two of the 9/11 hijackers were from KSA. Also, KSA still supports extremist terrorist groups. The terrorists causing the chaos, if you will. Perhaps one goal is finding a solution to the Palestinians not having a homeland?


Why did you quote me? You are referring to a quote from another user. Please read the thread before you hit the quote button :banghead:
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1429
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:31 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
^ Yet the answer given was only for Israel. Still waiting to find out what KSA does for us now that we don’t need their oil - their trainees conspire to kill our soldiers at bases and their college students commit hit and run felonies and get airlifted out of the US before trial. Noice. Funny, I don’t see stories about Germans, Koreans, or Taiwanese doing that while in the US.

People from KSA are also well known for demolition of buildings with out of the box “tools”.....
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:21 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Fixed that for you!


Not really.

seb146 wrote:

All but two of the 9/11 hijackers were from KSA. Also, KSA still supports extremist terrorist groups. The terrorists causing the chaos, if you will. Perhaps one goal is finding a solution to the Palestinians not having a homeland?


Why did you quote me? You are referring to a quote from another user. Please read the thread before you hit the quote button :banghead:


Yes, I was quoting you saying "terrorists are the problem" because KSA funds terrorists. For that matter, Israel could be seen as terrorists for their treatment of Palestinians. Thanks for the condescending and rude reply, though! :)
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:24 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Fixed that for you!


Not really.


Typical Trump worshiper - ignoring reality.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:14 am

WIederling wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Perhaps you missed the part where Bin Laden admitted he was behind the attack.

Even the US FBI never connected him tightly to 911 ( various other attacks orchestrated by OBL where on their "OBL wanted for" list though.) Put your facts in the box where all the Trump allegations of voter fraud belong : "Fake News".


Obviously, Putin's Russian media never told you what happened... sad...

;)


https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/osama- ... n-13506877
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:16 am

At the time it was good for both to have an identified boogeyman/hero. Not saying OBL wasn't involved (and I'm not a truther at all), but a "confession" isn't real proof. Today is no different, ISIL claims all kinds of terrorist attacks, just because they have incited them, without knowing the perpetrators at all.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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keesje
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:45 pm

petertenthije wrote:
The one positive thing that came from the Trump administration is that no new war was started. Granted, this was in large part due to Iran holding back after Soleimani got killed, but still, an achievement is an achievement.

It seems Trump is interested in removing this last good mark from his legacy as well.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54972269

Short quote from the BBC:
President Donald Trump asked senior advisers last Thursday (12-nov) about potential options for attacking Iran's main nuclear site, US media report.

The advisers warned him that military action could spark a broader conflict, officials were cited as saying.

The White House has not commented on the accounts of the meeting.


I think maybe it's easier to strike e.g. California. Much closer, a more fair battle and it really engages everyone, not just the military. Down the street violence always gives a different perspective to awesome weaponry on cultivated youtube/TV channels movies. And it saves other countries lots of dead and destruction. "Defending our interest" has broadened over the decades. Not much "defending" really, but defending something maybe works better than attacking something far away. Just my opinion of course.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:08 pm

keesje wrote:
I think maybe it's easier to strike e.g. California. Much closer, a more fair battle and it really engages everyone, not just the military. Down the street violence always gives a different perspective to awesome weaponry on cultivated youtube/TV channels movies. And it saves other countries lots of dead and destruction. "Defending our interest" has broadened over the decades. Not much "defending" really, but defending something maybe works better than attacking something far away. Just my opinion of course.


So it is a better use of resources to start a civil war and turn the most prosperous state into a welfare wasteland? Burn everything to the ground seems to be the latest MAGA motto.....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
bgm
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:20 pm

slider wrote:
Trump is the first POTUS in more than a generation to not create or escalate a conflict.

The neocons are hungry and demand to be fed. The Saudis are wanting to be placated again. This isn't tough stuff to see through if you've been paying attention.


How about the conflict within the US? He's certainly been very active there.
 
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keesje
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:04 am

The $700B budget creates millions of jobs, absorbes youngster and trains/ educates them, finances enormous amounts of research, creates identity & pride. Reserves units are important for many communities. If enemies are not that clear/ aggressive, you need to take care on that perception, broaden the scope of US interests & Defending, create new fear, before anyone starts asking unpatriotic questions on need for the huge budget in relation to education, healthcare, real dangers, etc. Iran is practical, we owe China a lot of money..

Image
https://www.fp4america.org/defense-budget
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:02 pm

seb146 wrote:
So it is a better use of resources to start a civil war and turn the most prosperous state into a welfare wasteland? Burn everything to the ground seems to be the latest MAGA motto.....


Global view:

It is preferable that the arsonist light his own roof and not wreak further havoc abroad.
Murphy is an optimist
 
slider
Posts: 7735
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:18 pm

Keesje- it's cool. We'll slash that budget down, reduce the military, and then the deterrence force that has helped keep the global peace since 1945 (largely speaking) will be eliminated. Good luck on your own.
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:26 pm

WIederling wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So it is a better use of resources to start a civil war and turn the most prosperous state into a welfare wasteland? Burn everything to the ground seems to be the latest MAGA motto.....


Global view:

It is preferable that the arsonist light his own roof and not wreak further havoc abroad.


We don't want the arsonist at all. That has been shown, no matter how many law suits he files, no matter who he bribes, no matter what his domestic terrorist followers say.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump considering options to strike Iran

Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:12 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
This is so much fake news, paving the way for Biden to come out and bail out Iran and getting back to the nefarious Iran nuclear deal he and Obama signed. .


Biden did not sign anything, he was just the VP at the time. Here's who did sign, the USA, Britain, France, China, Russia, and the EU. And here's the thing, all those countries made it perfectly clear that they were not going to fall in lock step with the Trump Administration when it came to Iran. Have the Iranians bowed to US pressure? The answer to that is no. The lesson they have learned is the next time to go into negotiations with a more advanced weapons program. Oh yeah,and the word of the United States is worth crap.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
If the US gets back into the Iran nuclear deal, it will setback the peace obtained during these years in the middle east.


Is that a joke? What peace are you talking about?


AirWorthy99 wrote:
Will go against our allies, Israel and the KSA..


The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia? Is that another joke? You would be hard pressed to find many American's who view KSA as an ally. Most Americans remember that fifteen of the nineteen hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Saudi support for extremists groups and lets not forget the Saudi flight student who killed three American servicemen at NAS Pensacola.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
The geniuses that are coming back to the WH will certainly make things worse as they have for generations. Unfortunate.


You must be thinking of the GWB Administration, they're the one who threw gasoline on the fire with the invasion of Iraq.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.

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