There are many second and third world countries that are more hostile against LGBT than Italy as depucted in the article... But I guess the question is whether Italy want to join the list of second or third world countries

Tiredofhumanity wrote:

If you are a member of the LGBT community and are thinking about travelling to Italy if/when this pandemic gets to a reasonable level of control, consider the following:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... law-debate

Advice: if you are a foreigner fall under the LGBT umbrella, do not give ANY Italian a penny.

To EU users: if you criticise the US as being controlled by religion, look in your own backyard.

Italy legalized same sex unions, you can't really get more LGBT friendly than that. What they don't want to do is create anti-hate laws open to interpretation that can limit free speech.

It's a CRAZY proposed law that would also criminalize misogyny. How on God's green earth do you define misogyny in today's femino-centric and anti-white-straight-male world? That would literally make it illegal to make a joke with a female being the butt of that joke, jail for a joke. Hell, you can go to jail for questioning any feminist narrative, as that would be considered misogynistic by the latest wave feminist. The proposed law is anti-free speech, vague, open to interpretation and an extension of a law that already protects people more than adequately. This new proposal is being pushed by the fringe left and disguised as promoting 'tolerance' while all the while behaving fascist

If approved, the new law would be an extension of an existing law that punishes racist violence, hatred and discrimination. In addition, it would criminalize misogyny.

You need to promote awareness to solve hate towards the LGBT.

As for the USA, please, that gate has swung too far. It's now the norm for children who aren't old enough to make a proper decision regarding their diet because their brains are nowhere near developed enough to decide that they are trans and undergo hormonal treatments that are irreversible. Children as young as 7!!! This is nothing short of medical experimentation and a crime against humanity. Not to mention the social and legal acceptation of hundreds made up genders, and accepting this as normal instead of offering psychological treatment for the mentally insane. The USA is an example of what happens when people go too far.

Firstly, it seems to me that at least some of these actions are punishable under other existing laws.

Secondly, if 9% of complaints are severe, what sort of issues are the other 91%?.

Tiredofhumanity wrote:

If you are a member of the LGBT community and are thinking about travelling to Italy if/when this pandemic gets to a reasonable level of control, consider the following:

Consider what exactly? That this same scenario is practically a worldwide issue, with some areas better than others?

Tiredofhumanity wrote:

Advice: if you are a foreigner fall under the LGBT umbrella, do not give ANY Italian a penny.

What does this have to do with all Italians?

Poland is far worse in its attitudes toward GLTBQ's: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/in-po ... o-violence

Tiredofhumanity wrote:

What I'm saying is - LGBT travellers should patronize another European country instead of this place.

Who gave you the podium to speak for where LGBT people 'should' and shouldn't go? It's their damn choice not yours now, isn't it? I think you shouldn't be telling anyone what they should or shouldn't be doing.

Besides, it's not really possible to experience Lake Como or Positano in the Netherlands... lol.

Tiredofhumanity wrote:

What I'm saying is - LGBT travellers should patronize another European country instead of this place. You don't hear these stories coming out of Ireland or the Netherlands, or example.

Again, why? If you are indeed ‘tired of humanity’, perhaps the best medicine is to sit at home.

You don’t hear stories of LGBT folks abused, threatened and sometimes murdered in Ireland or the Netherlands? Google is your friend.

Because of finances and responsibility, some of us can not even imagine travelling to a neighboring state, much less Italy. If it is just a proposal, that is one thing. If discrimination is written into law like in Uganda with the help of American pastors, that is quite another.

Redd: We in the LGBTQ+ community have been trying for decades to promote awareness of our community for a very, very long time. And we are still beaten and killed and bullied and discriminated. Just look at your rant about food and 7 year olds. How many LGBTQ+ people have 7 year olds on hormone therapy? I just can't with that one.

But, more important, we understand there are no protections for us in the law. We demand the law protect us and what we do with other consenting adults just like in the heterosexual community. And that caused panic and outrage from "small government" Republicans. We try to educate and tolerate and we are met with hate and anger and more oppression.

seb146 wrote:

Because of finances and responsibility, some of us can not even imagine travelling to a neighboring state, much less Italy. If it is just a proposal, that is one thing. If discrimination is written into law like in Uganda with the help of American pastors, that is quite another.

Redd: We in the LGBTQ+ community have been trying for decades to promote awareness of our community for a very, very long time. And we are still beaten and killed and bullied and discriminated. Just look at your rant about food and 7 year olds. How many LGBTQ+ people have 7 year olds on hormone therapy? I just can't with that one.

But, more important, we understand there are no protections for us in the law. We demand the law protect us and what we do with other consenting adults just like in the heterosexual community. And that caused panic and outrage from "small government" Republicans. We try to educate and tolerate and we are met with hate and anger and more oppression.

The problem the LGB community have is that they became aligned with the TQxxxxx community. You’re now lumped in with the rest and your voice has been downgraded and drowned out by the other TQxxxxx interest groups.

Aeroflot777 wrote:

Tiredofhumanity wrote:

Advice: if you are a foreigner fall under the LGBT umbrella, do not give ANY Italian a penny.

What does this have to do with all Italians?

Exactly. The article posted by the OP says that 55% of all Italians accept LGBTs. Boycotting them is only going to push them into the other camp.

If you ask me, user Tiredofhumanity is an anti-LGBT troll who is trying to provoke an opposite reaction by masquerading as a stereotypical fanatical LGBT posterchild.

There is absolutely no need to legislate for "hate crimes", or violence, towards gays, women, trans or disabled people if the law is properly administered. These are crimes, full stop, and should be prosecuted as such.

Redd wrote:

Tiredofhumanity wrote:

What I'm saying is - LGBT travellers should patronize another European country instead of this place.

Who gave you the podium to speak for where LGBT people 'should' and shouldn't go? It's their damn choice not yours now, isn't it? I think you shouldn't be telling anyone what they should or shouldn't be doing.

Besides, it's not really possible to experience Lake Como or Positano in the Netherlands... lol.

To be fair, no more podium than anyone gave you to tell him what to do or not to do. This most basic of precepts is what I believe many in the Western world have literally forgotten how to interpret, really. Opinions, or activism, no matter how completely opposed to our views, or even how unpalatable they are to the majority, are freedom of expression and choice. The OP expressed his opinion on a subject, and perhaps even directed a certain group of people into taking a certain kind of action. You also directed him to a certain kind of action by suggesting he cannot direct others, you see what I mean? It can make your head spin admittedly! But it's very simple: Let's not question the idea that someone can voice their thoughts and ideas, let's question the thoughts and ideas in of themselves. In this case I tend to agree with most people here, I feel the OP is overly aggressive on Italians and Italy, when the body of evidence suggests anti-LGBT activities in Italy are not distinctly or egregiously worse than in similar areas of Europe or the world. I honestly think the OP harbors a particularly dim view of the Catholic Church, which is centered in Italy, and therefore his views on the church get a bit conflated with the country that this church has headquarters in.

More than 20 years back I and some friends were camping in Italy.
The neighbouring party was a couple in their 20s.

He sat in a camping chair. She came from making the dishes. Next she went into the camping van and without being asked brought him a bottle of beer.

We were joking that time that we will have to find ourselves Italien wives.

Everything described in the article is illegal as it is in Italy (breaking and entering, assault, death threats, harassment). The problem is cops not doing their job, and general corruption, not LGBT rights.

Italians are so religious that they're not having kids anymore, I wonder why ?

Kiwirob wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Because of finances and responsibility, some of us can not even imagine travelling to a neighboring state, much less Italy. If it is just a proposal, that is one thing. If discrimination is written into law like in Uganda with the help of American pastors, that is quite another.

Redd: We in the LGBTQ+ community have been trying for decades to promote awareness of our community for a very, very long time. And we are still beaten and killed and bullied and discriminated. Just look at your rant about food and 7 year olds. How many LGBTQ+ people have 7 year olds on hormone therapy? I just can't with that one.

But, more important, we understand there are no protections for us in the law. We demand the law protect us and what we do with other consenting adults just like in the heterosexual community. And that caused panic and outrage from "small government" Republicans. We try to educate and tolerate and we are met with hate and anger and more oppression.

The problem the LGB community have is that they became aligned with the TQxxxxx community. You’re now lumped in with the rest and your voice has been downgraded and drowned out by the other TQxxxxx interest groups.

I'm sorry.... the TQwhat?

The REAL problem is "we need smaller government" righties who also demand everyone be regulated to their satisfaction. It is okay if people worship, but they must worship how righties want. It is okay for people to marry, just marry how righties want. Can't offend righties. Republicans. MAGA. Whatever name we want to get them. The highly offended right wing extremists who only want rights and privileges for a select few. Those people who are so offended by Harry Styles on the cover of Vogue they scream and rant and offended by a guy doing gymnastics on a soup commercial but look at those two chicks making out is great.

seb146 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Because of finances and responsibility, some of us can not even imagine travelling to a neighboring state, much less Italy. If it is just a proposal, that is one thing. If discrimination is written into law like in Uganda with the help of American pastors, that is quite another.

Redd: We in the LGBTQ+ community have been trying for decades to promote awareness of our community for a very, very long time. And we are still beaten and killed and bullied and discriminated. Just look at your rant about food and 7 year olds. How many LGBTQ+ people have 7 year olds on hormone therapy? I just can't with that one.

But, more important, we understand there are no protections for us in the law. We demand the law protect us and what we do with other consenting adults just like in the heterosexual community. And that caused panic and outrage from "small government" Republicans. We try to educate and tolerate and we are met with hate and anger and more oppression.

The problem the LGB community have is that they became aligned with the TQxxxxx community. You’re now lumped in with the rest and your voice has been downgraded and drowned out by the other TQxxxxx interest groups.

I'm sorry.... the TQwhat?

The REAL problem is "we need smaller government" righties who also demand everyone be regulated to their satisfaction. It is okay if people worship, but they must worship how righties want. It is okay for people to marry, just marry how righties want. Can't offend righties. Republicans. MAGA. Whatever name we want to get them. The highly offended right wing extremists who only want rights and privileges for a select few. Those people who are so offended by Harry Styles on the cover of Vogue they scream and rant and offended by a guy doing gymnastics on a soup commercial but look at those two chicks making out is great.

LGBTQIAPK, it was much easier when it was just LGB, I understand LGB. I don't know why you guys allowed your issues to be merged into the TQIAPK community of people, you had traction when it was fairly simple, now your'e merged with the freaky end of the spectrum which most people can't get there heads around.

Braybuddy wrote:

There is absolutely no need to legislate for "hate crimes", or violence, towards gays, women, trans or disabled people if the law is properly administered. These are crimes, full stop, and should be prosecuted as such.

"hate" is an aggravating circumstance for crimes where legislated as such.

best regards
Thomas

Braybuddy wrote:

There is absolutely no need to legislate for "hate crimes", or violence, towards gays, women, trans or disabled people if the law is properly administered. These are crimes, full stop, and should be prosecuted as such.

That is correct. If you threaten to torch your neighbours car, it should not matter who the neighbour loves, what gender or race he is or what religion he favours.

tommy1808 wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

There is absolutely no need to legislate for "hate crimes", or violence, towards gays, women, trans or disabled people if the law is properly administered. These are crimes, full stop, and should be prosecuted as such.

"hate" is an aggravating circumstance for crimes where legislated as such.

best regards
Thomas

Which makes no sense whatsoever. Who in their right mind is going to commit a crime against someone they love? More importantly, can recent divorcees who didn't get as much as they hoped for in the settlement be charged with a "hate crime" when they vandalize or destroy their former spouse's property out of spite?

TSS wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

There is absolutely no need to legislate for "hate crimes", or violence, towards gays, women, trans or disabled people if the law is properly administered. These are crimes, full stop, and should be prosecuted as such.

"hate" is an aggravating circumstance for crimes where legislated as such.

best regards
Thomas

Which makes no sense whatsoever. Who in their right mind is going to commit a crime against someone they love?

There is more than love and hate. Its about motivation. You can rob someone and beat them up in a dark alley because that person just randomly happens to be where you are looking for a victim, or you can deliberately target someone because of the group they belong to, i.e. beating them up was the goal, robbing them was only incidental. Motivation as aggravating/mitigating circumstance is, i believe, common through jurisdictions everywhere.

More importantly, can recent divorcees who didn't get as much as they hoped for in the settlement be charged with a "hate crime" when they vandalize or destroy their former spouse's property out of spite?

hate crime
noun
a crime, typically one involving violence, that is motivated by prejudice on the basis of race, religion, sexual orientation, or other grounds.

That situation would very rarely fall under hate crime.

best regards
Thomas

Tiredofhumanity wrote:

Sadly, the only way to charge peoples' minds is by attitudes is by hitting them in the pocketbook.

So lets hit the pocketbook of the 55% so they change their minds.

I still stand by my original assumption that you are a hard-right bible thumping troll.

seb146 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Because of finances and responsibility, some of us can not even imagine travelling to a neighboring state, much less Italy. If it is just a proposal, that is one thing. If discrimination is written into law like in Uganda with the help of American pastors, that is quite another.

Redd: We in the LGBTQ+ community have been trying for decades to promote awareness of our community for a very, very long time. And we are still beaten and killed and bullied and discriminated. Just look at your rant about food and 7 year olds. How many LGBTQ+ people have 7 year olds on hormone therapy? I just can't with that one.

But, more important, we understand there are no protections for us in the law. We demand the law protect us and what we do with other consenting adults just like in the heterosexual community. And that caused panic and outrage from "small government" Republicans. We try to educate and tolerate and we are met with hate and anger and more oppression.

The problem the LGB community have is that they became aligned with the TQxxxxx community. You’re now lumped in with the rest and your voice has been downgraded and drowned out by the other TQxxxxx interest groups.

I'm sorry.... the TQwhat?

The REAL problem is "we need smaller government" righties who also demand everyone be regulated to their satisfaction. It is okay if people worship, but they must worship how righties want. It is okay for people to marry, just marry how righties want. Can't offend righties. Republicans. MAGA. Whatever name we want to get them. The highly offended right wing extremists who only want rights and privileges for a select few.

Okay, we get that you're familiar with the "Rules For Radicals" rule about always accusing your enemy of doing exactly what you're doing. Do you have any specific examples to cite?

seb146 wrote:

Those people who are so offended by Harry Styles on the cover of Vogue they scream and rant and offended by a guy doing gymnastics on a soup commercial but look at those two chicks making out is great.

I must have missed the gymnast on the soup commercial and the only thing that offended me about Harry Styles on the cover of Vogue in a dress is that he was wearing an ugly, shapeless, and thoroughly unflattering dress. Seriously, that faded baby blue nightmare looked like he did nothing more than pull down his grandmother's living room curtains and wrap them haphazardly around himself without even bothering to tuck them up enough to keep them from dragging behind him. The fact that he allowed himself to appear on the cover of ANY magazine, especially Vogue, draped (literally!) in that pastel monstrosity proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that: A. He is 100% straight because no gay or even bisexual man would be caught dead wearing what could pass for a collapsed circus tent, and B. He has no gay friends or at least none that are drag queens because any drag queen worth her salt could've made him look like a million bucks with just an old tablecloth and a couple of cheap costume jewelry brooches. I expected better from Harry Styles, and in particular I expected better from Vogue.

Now that I think about it some time ago I did see a dress similarly inspired to the one Mr. Styles was wearing on the cover of Vogue, but the earlier one was much more tailored and therefore much classier-looking - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKhw-v5h2I

tommy1808 wrote:

Braybuddy wrote:

There is absolutely no need to legislate for "hate crimes", or violence, towards gays, women, trans or disabled people if the law is properly administered. These are crimes, full stop, and should be prosecuted as such.

"hate" is an aggravating circumstance for crimes where legislated as such.

best regards
Thomas

Why should "hate" be an aggravating circumstance? A crime has been committed, and there are laws for that. If you have greater punishment for "hate" crimes, then you could argue for lesser punishment for crimes of passion. If a man murders the woman (or person) he loves, should he be entitled to a lesser sentence?

I got lost after LBGT, the list of letters gets longer every year.

Braybuddy wrote:

then you could argue for lesser punishment for crimes of passion.

That actually is the case in some jurisdictions...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_passion

If a man murders the woman (or person) he loves, should he be entitled to a lesser sentence?

Some countries seem to think you should be entitled to a lesser sentence, and even be convicted of a lesser crime.

And since i already quoted the definition of hate crime, and hence the definition of hate in this context, your example is besides the point. Killing women because they are women increases the chance of a repeat offence by quite a bit, there are plenty of other women, compared to murdering your cheating wife. You can´t kill her again after all.

best regards
Thomas




.

tommy1808 wrote:

Some countries seem to think you should be entitled to a lesser sentence, and even be convicted of a lesser crime.

Seems to have died out, or is dying out. Try suggesting that to feminists!

tommy1808 wrote:

And since i already quoted the definition of hate crime, and hence the definition of hate in this context, your example is besides the point. Killing women because they are women increases the chance of a repeat offence by quite a bit, there are plenty of other women, compared to murdering your cheating wife. You can´t kill her again after all.

best regards
Thomas

Why should you receive an increased sentence because of the probablility you might do it again? The person is being tried for what they've done, not what they might do, whatever the probablility.

scbriml wrote:

Exactly. Italy is no worse than some others and better than many.

As an Italian I think I should be insulted by this thread but why bother, this sums it up.

Braybuddy wrote:

Why should you receive an increased sentence because of the probablility you might do it again? The person is being tried for what they've done, not what they might do, whatever the probablility.

Penalty is about punishment and preventing future crimes, obviously the chance to re-committ effects the penalty, and you can do that in advance, or during the parole process later, but that is how it is done since just about when the 19th century was a thing.

best regards
Thomas

Punishment:
-keep evil or selfish intention in check through negative consequences
-punish
-protect society

The first point works well to prevent overspeeding.
I like the last point. There is a continuum between mental asylum and prison, so how or why to punish?
But to lock people away to protect society sounds like a good idea. I see no reason why inmates shouldn't enjoy swimming pools.
(Conservatives in Bavaria went crazy over the Green Party in Hessen building swimming pools for prisoners.)

I believe death sentence does not lower the incidence of relationship murders. The threatening effect of punishment doesn't work. However that threat works well for over speeding. That's why punishments for speeding seems in no relation to real crimes.
I guess for hate crimes the threat of punishment works, but I'm happy to be corrected.

Redd wrote:

Tiredofhumanity wrote:

If you are a member of the LGBT community and are thinking about travelling to Italy if/when this pandemic gets to a reasonable level of control, consider the following:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... law-debate

Advice: if you are a foreigner fall under the LGBT umbrella, do not give ANY Italian a penny.

To EU users: if you criticise the US as being controlled by religion, look in your own backyard.

Italy legalized same sex unions, you can't really get more LGBT friendly than that. What they don't want to do is create anti-hate laws open to interpretation that can limit free speech.

It's a CRAZY proposed law that would also criminalize misogyny. How on God's green earth do you define misogyny in today's femino-centric and anti-white-straight-male world? That would literally make it illegal to make a joke with a female being the butt of that joke, jail for a joke. Hell, you can go to jail for questioning any feminist narrative, as that would be considered misogynistic by the latest wave feminist. The proposed law is anti-free speech, vague, open to interpretation and an extension of a law that already protects people more than adequately. This new proposal is being pushed by the fringe left and disguised as promoting 'tolerance' while all the while behaving fascist

If approved, the new law would be an extension of an existing law that punishes racist violence, hatred and discrimination. In addition, it would criminalize misogyny.

You need to promote awareness to solve hate towards the LGBT.

As for the USA, please, that gate has swung too far. It's now the norm for children who aren't old enough to make a proper decision regarding their diet because their brains are nowhere near developed enough to decide that they are trans and undergo hormonal treatments that are irreversible. Children as young as 7!!! This is nothing short of medical experimentation and a crime against humanity. Not to mention the social and legal acceptation of hundreds made up genders, and accepting this as normal instead of offering psychological treatment for the mentally insane. The USA is an example of what happens when people go too far.

This isn’t some new phenomenon. Issues of gender identity and those who do not conform to one or the other has been documented for thousands of years across cultures separated by vast oceans. Some cultures were more accepting than we are today. Since this has been documented for thousands of years, it seems to me that it’s not uncommon and there’s a more complex explanation than just writing them off as mentally ill, which is what you’re doing. Some scientists have theorized that effeminacy in men could be an evolutionary trait to counteract male aggression. Whatever it is, it’s likely more complicated than what you’re turning it into.

I know several trans women and they’re perfectly normal, productive, functioning people. They’re happy, they’re not depressed or mentally ill. You’ve probably spoken to several throughout your life without even knowing. You don’t get to just tell someone they’re sick because you disagree with their lifestyle. You’re not qualified to diagnose mental disorders. You don’t understand them, therefore you conclude that they must be mentally ill. This is ignorant and simplistic. You’re also picking out the most extreme examples to make your case.

No one thinks there’s hundreds of genders either. You’re exaggerating, which is typical when people make this argument. It’s akin to the gay marriage battle when people said next they’ll legalize marrying animals. The slippery slope argument. What people identify as has zero impact on your life, so I fail to see why you’re so upset. Worry about yourself, not someone else’s life and identity. There’s always someone trying to impose and force their will onto others and it’s really getting old. It comes down to getting the hell out of people’s lives and minding your own business. That’s what I suggest you do.

TSS wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

The problem the LGB community have is that they became aligned with the TQxxxxx community. You’re now lumped in with the rest and your voice has been downgraded and drowned out by the other TQxxxxx interest groups.

I'm sorry.... the TQwhat?

The REAL problem is "we need smaller government" righties who also demand everyone be regulated to their satisfaction. It is okay if people worship, but they must worship how righties want. It is okay for people to marry, just marry how righties want. Can't offend righties. Republicans. MAGA. Whatever name we want to get them. The highly offended right wing extremists who only want rights and privileges for a select few.

Okay, we get that you're familiar with the "Rules For Radicals" rule about always accusing your enemy of doing exactly what you're doing. Do you have any specific examples to cite?

Not sure why my reply was deleted.

Evangelicals do so many things they tell the rest of us not to do. Like sit naked in the corner touching yourself while watching the pool boy do unspeakable things to your wife. For literally anyone else, who cares but because two of the three people DEMAND no one else do this, "liberals" have to say something. Same with prostitution and these evangelicals doing things with young adult men. Evangelicals are so two faced. Normally, that would not be an issue. No one, even "liberals" would not care. But, because evangelicals are the loudest and litigious to go after these kinds of things, they must be called out. So what if Bill Clinton got a hummer from a consenting adult? Right wing evangelicals use this as a reason to hate Democratic "liberals". Voting by minorities is a terrible thing so let's make it impossible for LEGAL AMERICAN minorities to vote because Republican evangelicals. Explain. Explain why "liberals" are the absolute worst for wanting LEGAL AMERICANS to have a voice but evangelical Republicans are patriots for stopping LEGAL AMERICANS from having a voice.

Kiwirob wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

The problem the LGB community have is that they became aligned with the TQxxxxx community. You’re now lumped in with the rest and your voice has been downgraded and drowned out by the other TQxxxxx interest groups.

I'm sorry.... the TQwhat?

The REAL problem is "we need smaller government" righties who also demand everyone be regulated to their satisfaction. It is okay if people worship, but they must worship how righties want. It is okay for people to marry, just marry how righties want. Can't offend righties. Republicans. MAGA. Whatever name we want to get them. The highly offended right wing extremists who only want rights and privileges for a select few. Those people who are so offended by Harry Styles on the cover of Vogue they scream and rant and offended by a guy doing gymnastics on a soup commercial but look at those two chicks making out is great.

LGBTQIAPK, it was much easier when it was just LGB, I understand LGB. I don't know why you guys allowed your issues to be merged into the TQIAPK community of people, you had traction when it was fairly simple, now your'e merged with the freaky end of the spectrum which most people can't get there heads around.

Explain the whole TQ thing. I want answers. I want a reply. What is your anger toward TQwhatever? I want to know. I can not reply if I do not know what is going on in your mind. I need to know how much rent to charge, too.

I think you may have as many prejudices about Evangelicals as they have about LBGTQ persons.

tommy1808 wrote:

Penalty is about punishment and preventing future crimes, obviously the chance to re-committ effects the penalty, and you can do that in advance, or during the parole process later, but that is how it is done since just about when the 19th century was a thing.

best regards
Thomas

Penalty can depend on previous behaviour and previous criminal behaviour can be taken into account, so if someone has a history of criminal activity a larger sentence can be imposted. That takes care of the preventing future crimes argument, but to legislate for what someone might do is the start of a slippery slope. Also, trying to establish what was going on in someone's head at the time is a very grey area indeed.

Braybuddy wrote:

but to legislate for what someone might do is the start of a slippery slope. Also, trying to establish what was going on in someone's head at the time is a very grey area indeed.

Just about every ruling includes what was and is going on in someones head. In plenty of jurisdictions the prosecution has to proof to the courts satisfaction what was going on in the perpetrators head at the time of the crime..... sometimes you can´t even convict unless the guilty mind has been proven.

No slippery slope anywhere, at least none we haven´t been dealing with for centuries.

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

Just about every ruling includes what was and is going on in someones head. In plenty of jurisdictions the prosecution has to proof to the courts satisfaction what was going on in the perpetrators head at the time of the crime..... sometimes you can´t even convict unless the guilty mind has been proven.

No slippery slope anywhere, at least none we haven´t been dealing with for centuries.

best regards
Thomas

How exactly do you prove what someone was thinking at the time?

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/31/us/h ... index.html

"One explanation, several former prosecutors told CNN, is that hate crimes are more difficult to charge and prosecute than other criminal charges, largely because they require law enforcement to prove a specific motivation of bias."

seahawk wrote:

I think you may have as many prejudices about Evangelicals as they have about LBGTQ persons.

Let's pray for him.

seahawk wrote:

I think you may have as many prejudices about Evangelicals as they have about LBGTQ persons.

Evangelicals have always been on the wrong side of history, whether it's pushing segregation--which was a precursor to their pretend pro life ploy, admiring Hitler--on tape with Nixon, or hating pretty much anyone that isn't a straight white evangelical male. There is a reason someone as amoral, bigoted, and greedy as Trump is their messiah.

Kiwirob wrote:

LGBTQIAPK, it was much easier when it was just LGB, I understand LGB. I don't know why you guys allowed your issues to be merged into the TQIAPK community of people, you had traction when it was fairly simple, now your'e merged with the freaky end of the spectrum which most people can't get there heads around.

"Why do you care about other discriminated groups that I don't understand?" is a strangely self aware own.

I doubt he is the only one who gets confused once you get beyond LGBT.

bennett123 wrote:

I doubt he is the only one who gets confused once you get beyond LGBT.

Once you get past B its all a crap show of intense stupidity.

Kiwirob wrote:

bennett123 wrote:

I doubt he is the only one who gets confused once you get beyond LGBT.

Once you get past B its all a crap show of intense stupidity.

And it is an issue to how people are treated why?

If you or your children want to wear a dress or have short hair or wear "non-gendered" clothing or asks to be identified a certain way, what does it actually harm? Anyone? I know I find "my pronouns are" to be annoying and even ridiculous but I do not worry about it or treat someone badly for it or disallow it, or any of the other things that some get to the point of.

Live, move on, enjoy what you do, but we live with billions of other people so we will always be annoyed by some people and will find somethings silly, but that is not going to ruin your life.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

I know I find "my pronouns are" to be annoying and even ridiculous but I do not worry about it or treat someone badly for it or disallow it, or any of the other things that some get to the point of.

I don't think most people would care if it were indeed left at that, but it's not. Increasingly sanctions are being called for against those who misgender or call someone by the wrong pronouns, etc.

Sokes wrote:

seahawk wrote:

I think you may have as many prejudices about Evangelicals as they have about LBGTQ persons.

Let's pray for him.

I just do not like it if you point out a group of people for behaving in an anti-social way and using derogatory language by using more or less the same language against them. If you are for unconditional respect towards all members of society, you must act accordingly. That does not mean that you can not point out the wrong doings of certain groups, but it should mean that you do not use hate speech yourself.

Tugger wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

bennett123 wrote:

I doubt he is the only one who gets confused once you get beyond LGBT.

Once you get past B its all a crap show of intense stupidity.

And it is an issue to how people are treated why?

If you or your children want to wear a dress or have short hair or wear "non-gendered" clothing or asks to be identified a certain way, what does it actually harm? Anyone? I know I find "my pronouns are" to be annoying and even ridiculous but I do not worry about it or treat someone badly for it or disallow it, or any of the other things that some get to the point of.

Live, move on, enjoy what you do, but we live with billions of other people so we will always be annoyed by some people and will find somethings silly, but that is not going to ruin your life.

Tugg

I'm going to call you by what you look like, they/them is utterly stupid.

Tugger wrote:

I know I find "my pronouns are" to be annoying and even ridiculous

It's ironic that the gay community have been mispronouning people for decades. Now it's a cancelling offence.

Tiredofhumanity wrote:

If you are a member of the LGBT community and are thinking about travelling to Italy if/when this pandemic gets to a reasonable level of control, consider the following:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... law-debate

Advice: if you are a foreigner fall under the LGBT umbrella, do not give ANY Italian a penny.

To EU users: if you criticise the US as being controlled by religion, look in your own backyard.

I am an Italian gay man who left Italy for Germany 15 years ago also because of the LGBT rights (or lack thereof) situation back then.
But I still have very deep contacts with my former Country and with my gay friends there.
Trust me, the situation has improved a lot.
Moreover the article you link is over 3 months old!!! Did you notice that?
The law against homophobia that the article cites has been approved in the meantime.

As others said, Italy is no better and no worse than many other European countries.
I live in Berlin, which has one of Europe´s biggest LGBT communities as well as Europe´s oldest gay neighborhood and there
are episodes of homo/transphobic attacks on a regular basis here too.

If you don´t want to go to Italy because you don´t want to support a Country that, in your eyes, is an enemy of the LGBT Community,
that´s your choice. I do the same with Arab Countries, Russia and others. But I don´t judge gays who want to go on vacation to, say, Dubai or Moscow.